The Church Renewal Podcast

Flourish Coaching
  • 5.0 (7)
  • CHRISTIANITY
  • UPDATED WEEKLY

The Church Renewal Podcast is a conversation for church leaders eager to see our churches refreshed by the gospel. The only fully sufficient reason that today dawned is that Jesus is yet gathering a people and using the church to do it. Come and join us as we dig into the ways Jesus is renewing his church.

  1. Ken Quick Pt 1: Invisible Loyalties & Ledgers

    5D AGO

    Ken Quick Pt 1: Invisible Loyalties & Ledgers

    Hidden forces decide how we relate long before we name them. We sat down with Dr. Ken Quick to unpack Ivan Nagy’s “invisible loyalties,” a family systems lens that explains why churches so often feel like they’re living under unspoken contracts. Think of relationships as ledgers with credits and debits: gifts given, support expected, bids for connection that get received or ignored. When those ledgers are healthy, gratitude sets the tone. When they’re distorted, quiet debts become leverage and unity gets confused with silence. We trace how family-of-origin patterns shape staff culture, elder dynamics, and the Sunday-morning hallway. You’ll hear why a congregant’s critique is often a bid for relationship, how historical hurts pre-load new leaders with negative balance, and where transactional leadership harms trust. We also wrestle with loyalty’s darker side: the “church princess” no one confronts, the blackballing that punishes honest staff, and the narcissistic demand for allegiance that corrodes discipleship. Resources Ivan Boszormenyi-Nagy – Invisible LoyaltiesEdwin H. Friedman – Generation to GenerationEdwin H. Friedman – A Failure of NerveMurray Bowen – Family Therapy in Clinical PracticeChuck DeGroat – When Narcissism Comes to Church Exodus 20:12 – Honoring parents as a lifelong relational obligation. Romans 13:8 – Owing nothing except love. John 13:34–35 – Love as the identifying mark of Christian community. Definitions Invisible Loyalties – Nagy’s concept that family and relational systems carry intergenerational obligations and debts. Relational Ledger – The internal accounting of credits and debits that shapes expectations and reactions in relationships. Loyalty – A patterned sense of owed allegiance within a system; can be healthy or distorted into obligation or coercion. Family Systems Theory – A framework understanding individuals through emotional patterns and roles within their relational systems. Family of Origin – The system in which one first learns relational roles, values, and patterns. Honor–Shame / Owing Dynamics – Cultural and relational expectations of gratitude, obligation, and allegiance inherited across generations.Support the show Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation. Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

    25 min

  2. DEC 11

    Dysfunction Uncovered: What’s Really Going On

    Power is always present in a church—on paper and in the room—and it’s either fueling discipleship and mission or feeding anxiety and control. We pull back the curtain on how leadership structures, unofficial influencers, and unspoken loyalties shape the emotional process of a congregation far more than most content disputes ever will. Matt and Jeremy map out the difference between pastor-dominated and elder-dominated cultures and the healthier “first among equals” posture that allows an eldership to lead with clarity and humility. We talk plainly about matriarchs and patriarchs, the costs of suppressing gifts (including women’s gifts in complementarian settings), and why comfort often masquerades as conviction. Then we introduce nine biblical cultural dynamics—the Great Commission, love of God and neighbor, gospel centrality, means of grace, biblical membership and leadership, transformation, and reformation—as a practical diagnostic for renewal. Along the way, we name golden calves, worship wars, and the post‑pandemic reality of disengagement that strains volunteer pipelines and raises system-wide anxiety. Family Systems Theory gives us tools to spot triangles, avoid being triangulated, and lead as a non‑anxious presence. We distinguish content from process so leaders don’t waste energy “winning” arguments while losing relationships and mission. Drawing from Philippians and Acts 15, we model a path of humility, direct communication, and prayerful discernment that recenters a congregation on Jesus, lowers reactivity, and reopens space for evangelism and discipleship. If your church is stuck in chronic conflict, drifting from mission, or beholden to unofficial power brokers, this conversation offers language, frameworks, and next steps to realign power with purpose and move forward together. If this resonates, subscribe and share with a ministry friend. Leave a review to help more pastors and elders find practical help for church health and mission. References Edwin H. Friedman, Generation to Generation: Family Process in Church and Synagogue (foundation for the “process vs. content,” “anxiety is contagious,” and “circuit breaker” ideas. Family Systems Theory (Bowen) — differentiation, triangles, anxiety contagion1 Peter 5:7 Philippians 2:1–11Acts 15Matthew 11:28–30Luke 9:23The Democratization of American Christianity by Nathan O. Hatch  “Comfort Is the Hidden Idol of Americans”, Matt Bohling Support the show Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation. Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

    37 min

  3. DEC 4

    Differentiation in the Body: Unity Not Uniformity

    When does a church’s passion for truth quietly turn into pressure to conform? We take an honest look at the difference between unity and uniformity, drawing from Romans 14, family systems thinking, and years of practical ministry to show why love and conscience create a stronger body than social sameness ever could. Instead of settling every debatable matter by decree, we explore how Paul invites believers to be fully convinced before the Lord while refusing contempt and judgment—an approach that requires more courage, empathy, and spiritual dependence than quick-fix rules. We get practical about “surrounding togetherness pressure,” the subtle group dynamics that push everyone to align on third- and fourth-tier issues. From politics and schooling choices to secondary doctrinal distinctives, we surface the flashpoints that regularly divide otherwise aligned Christians. Then we re-center on what must be uniform—Christ’s person and work, repentance and faith, core orthodoxy—and where principled freedom should prevail. Along the way, we confront identity anxiety, the urge to build extra fences for safety, and the temptation to play Holy Spirit in one another’s lives. Differentiation becomes the throughline: hold your convictions, stay emotionally connected, and dignify the other’s agency without ceding first things. That’s not isolation; it’s the soil where trust grows and real discipleship happens. If Jesus said the world would know us by our love, not our sameness, then healthy churches must cultivate cultures where conscience is honored, mercy governs disputes, and delegated authority stays within biblical limits. Listen to be refreshed in gospel proportion, equipped with language for triage, and encouraged to build communities where unity thrives without erasing difference. If this conversation helps you lead or love your church better, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so others can find the show. Your feedback helps more leaders pursue gospel‑shaped community. Resources Jack Shitama, Anxious Church, Anxious People “differentiation” language used in family systems context;Romans 14(conscience, disputable mattersEphesians 4:4–6 “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”Ephesians 2:14 dividing wall of hostilityMatthew 22:37–40 greatest commandmentMatthew 23:23 tithing mint and cumin; weightier mattersLuke 14:5 and Matthew 12:11 ox in a ditch on  SabbathMatthew 22:1–14 wedding garment parable Support the show Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation. Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

    31 min

  4. NOV 28

    Back to the Gospel: Repentance that Heals Systems

    What if the real problem isn’t the conflict you can see, but the quiet anxiety beneath it—fed by image management, blame, and good things loved too much? We go straight to the heart of church renewal: why gospel-centered repentance, not better tactics, restores trust, lowers system anxiety, and makes space for the Spirit’s comfort. We start where Scripture starts, tracing the first blame shift in Eden and contrasting it with David’s Godward confession. Then we get practical about what repentance really is: not just “I’m sorry I yelled,” but naming the deeper idol—control, nostalgia, efficiency, even a beloved hymn—that felt at risk. When leaders admit fault and point to Jesus, authority strengthens, not shrinks. Psychological safety grows; truth can be spoken without fear; mission outranks image. Along the way, we unpack the difference between content, context, and container, and why mistaking containers for the gospel keeps churches tense and brittle. You’ll hear concrete steps for pastors and elders to build a repentance culture: invite outside perspective, return to sidelined truth-tellers, confess first in leadership meetings, and teach people how to identify heart idols. Expect a tone that is playful yet serious, honest about grief, and hopeful about what God can do with a humble people. If you’re longing for a calmer church, truer leadership, and fewer scapegoats, this conversation offers language, frameworks, and courage to begin. If this resonated, share it with your team, subscribe for more church renewal conversations, and leave a review to help other leaders find it. Resources Genesis 3 – Adam and Eve’s blame-shifting in the Garden Psalm 51 – “Against You and You only have I sinned”2 Corinthians 1:3-4 – God of all comfortJeremiah 3 – Call to return; “broken cisterns” imagery continues into Jeremiah 2:13Galatians 5:22-23 – Fruit of the SpiritRomans 1:21-23 – Idolatry: exchanging the glory of God for created things Support the show Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation. Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

    38 min

  5. NOV 27 · BONUS

    Happy Thanksgiving!

    Matt and Jeremy hope that you have a very joyful and connected and Happy Thanksgiving. We are going to be with our families today, pressing to connection, and maybe even against some togetherness pressures. But always mindful of where we end, and the other person begins. (I couldn't resist -... Man, there are potential differentiation jokes everywhere!) We are going to air the episode that would have gone live today - tomorrow. Please look for it on Friday the 28th (2025) as it's a really good one. For now, Turn us off, and go delight in your friendships, family, and invest in the relationships that God has blessed you with.  Support the show Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation. Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

    2 min
  6. Dan Werthman Pt. 2 - Practicing Healthier Systems

    NOV 20

    Dan Werthman Pt. 2 - Practicing Healthier Systems

    Leadership under pressure isn’t about having the sharpest argument—it’s about holding steady when anxiety spikes. We sit down with Dan Werthman to explore how family systems theory helps pastors lead with presence instead of panic, especially when shame, polarization, and perpetual urgency try to set the agenda. Dan shares a vivid case of an overfunctioning lead pastor and the underfunctioning culture that followed, showing how accurate naming, sabbatical rhythms, and clear responsibility can reset a team toward health. Together we unpack triangles and the subtle ways pastors get pulled into conflicts they don’t own. Dan’s distinction is freeing: ministry requires entering triangles, but being triangulated happens when we abandon emotional neutrality to win approval or avoid disappointment. We walk through practical tools—preparation, pausing, and reflection—that help leaders notice physiological cues (tight stomach, racing thoughts), slow the fight-flight-freeze response, and re-engage with clarity. Along the way, we connect insights from Friedman, Gilbert, Shitama, and Steinke to a deeply Christian center: love God, love your neighbor, and refuse to confuse enablement with care. If you’ve felt the weight of “live monkeys” dropped on your desk, or watched your yes become everyone else’s habit, this conversation offers a path back to thoughtful, Christ-centered leadership. You’ll hear language for overfunctioning, frameworks for emotional neutrality, and ways to ground hard conversations in presence rather than pressure—so your church can mature, not just manage. If this resonates, share it with a fellow leader, subscribe for more, and leave a review to help others find the show. Your voice helps more pastors lead with calm in anxious times. References Edwin H. Friedman — Generation to Generation (triangles & family systems in congregations) The Bowen Center — “Triangles” Pete Scazzero — Emotionally Healthy Relationships (clarifying expectations tool) “Clarify Expectations” overviewJohn & Julie Gottman — Bids for Connection The 10 Minute Bible Hour Jack Shitama — The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast  Anxious Church, Anxious People Luke 17:3–4 Matthew 5:23–24 Matthew 18:15–17 Support the show Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation. Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

    40 min
  7. Special Guest: Dan Werthman Pt 1 - Triggered to Transformed

    NOV 13

    Special Guest: Dan Werthman Pt 1 - Triggered to Transformed

    Ever wondered why the same church conflict keeps showing up with different names? We sit down with intentional interim pastor and certified Christian conciliator Dan Werthman to unpack how family systems theory, shame awareness, and differentiation can turn anxious reactivity into steady, compassionate leadership. Dan’s path—from Air Force JAG and civil litigation to the pulpit and peacemaking—gives him a rare lens on church transitions. He explains why process matters more than content, how triggers formed in our families of origin hijack ministry moments, and why pastors must do their own work before trying to “fix” a congregation. We explore practical tools: mapping genograms to see multigenerational patterns, refusing triangles, slowing urgency, and using calm, clear statements that lower anxiety without losing conviction.  Across the conversation, we lean into the hard truth that forgiveness often   We truly see the stories that shaped our parents and ourselves. Dan describes how curiosity-based conversations, guided by a coach, deepened compassion and shifted his leadership presence. If you’re navigating a transition, leading a conflicted team, or simply tired of repeating the same reactive patterns, this episode offers a grounded path forward: more clarity, more connection, and a church culture that breathes instead of bracing. If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who leads under pressure, and leave a rating or review to help more pastors find practical tools for renewal. Resources  Ronald W. Richardson, Becoming a Healthier PastorRoberta M. Gilbert, The Eight Concepts of Bowen TheoryEdwin H. Friedman, Generation to Generation. info.gottman.comJack Shitama, Anxious Church, Anxious PeopleIf You Met My Family, You’d UnderstandThe Non-Anxious Leader PodcastThe Bowen Center for the Study of the Family.Peacemaker Ministries / The Peacemaker (Ken Sande)John and Julie Gottman, Fight RightSupport the show Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation. Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

    24 min

  8. NOV 6

    Triangles & Traps: Staying Out of the Middle

    Matt and Jeremy explore triangulation as one of the most common relational patterns in families and churches, often forming unconsciously as a way of managing anxiety or tension. • Triangles are the most stable relational form, which is why they're so common and hard to escape • Unhealthy triangulation occurs when two people talk about a third party not present with the goal of enlisting help • Systems will focus energy on protecting their weakest parts at the expense of their strongest parts • Pastors and leaders often get triangulated when people bring them "monkeys" (problems) that aren't theirs to solve • Differentiation allows leaders to stay emotionally present while refusing to take responsibility for others' issues • Recognizing when you're being triangulated helps you respond with "What do you think you should do about that?" • The goal isn't to solve people's problems but to help them mature in handling their own challenges • Breaking free from triangulation may disappoint people but ultimately creates healthier church systems Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or simply someone who wants healthier relationships, this episode offers transformative insights for recognizing and resisting unhealthy triangles. Subscribe to the Church Renewal Podcast for more wisdom on creating healthier church systems where maturity can flourish. Resources Edwin H. Friedman Generation to Generation (triangles & family systems in congregations) The Bowen Center “Triangles” (concept overview) Pete Scazzero Emotionally Healthy Relationships (clarifying expectations tool)(“Clarify Expectations” overview: John & Julie Gottman Bids for Connection (how to notice/respond to bids) The 10 Minute Bible Hour (podcast Jeremy referenced) Jack Shitama — The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast (story about staying non-anxious / not catching the “Christmas Eve” complaint ball)   (Book often paired with this topic:  — Scripture passages cited on going directly to a brother/sister (not triangulating): Luke 17:3–4 Matthew 5:23–24 Matthew 18:15–17Support the show Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation. Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

    35 min
See All (121)

Trailers

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
7 Ratings

About

The Church Renewal Podcast is a conversation for church leaders eager to see our churches refreshed by the gospel. The only fully sufficient reason that today dawned is that Jesus is yet gathering a people and using the church to do it. Come and join us as we dig into the ways Jesus is renewing his church.

Information

  • Creator
    Flourish Coaching
  • Years Active
    2020 - 2025
  • Episodes
    121
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2025 The Church Renewal Podcast
  • Show Website
    The Church Renewal Podcast