The Crime Cafe

Debbi Mack
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  • Updated Biweekly

Interviews and entertainment for crime fiction, suspense and thriller fans.

  1. 3d ago

    Interview with William Stuart – S. 12, Ep. 4

    This week’s guest is William Stuart, executive producer and director of the popular scripted podcast American Afterlife. Imagine, using a scripted podcast as a proof of concept. Because we talk about that here Download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest is a veteran entertainment executive with extensive industry experience. As president and CEO of Aurora Productions, he oversees its slate of film, television, and podcast projects. He’s also executive producer and director of American Afterlife, a highly successful scripted podcast adapted from the best-selling YA trilogy. (01:23): It’s my great pleasure to introduce my guest, William Stuart. Hi William, how are you doing today? William (01:29): Very good. How are you? Glad to be here. Debbi (01:32): Very happy to have you on. I’m very interested in your podcast. I’m interested in scripted podcast in general, but what’s the logline for your show? William (01:43): Yeah, I don’t know that we fall quite in the crime drama, but we’re going to get there. Debbi (01:48): Okay. William (01:51): The idea is based on fact, but then becomes fiction. So Pedro Hoffmeister, who lives up in Eugene, Oregon, has been writing about the big earthquake in the Pacific Northwest, and everyone up there is sort of bracing for it. And as a writer like yourself, he sort of said, “How do I fictionalize this and what would happen if?” And he wrote his novel, his book based on the fact that the earthquake happens. And one girl, a 15-year-old girl decides she doesn’t want to get rescued by the National Guard and be skirted away, but she decides she has to look for her mother. And as you can imagine in this post-apocalyptic world where authority is gone, electricity’s out, dams have broken, that it’s a new world. In terms of visually, we’ve been talking about The Last of Us or Station Eleven, this sort of post-apocalyptic world where many of the rules are thrown out and you just have to survive. (03:15): And that’s what our heroine Cielo has to do or tried to do. Debbi (03:21): Yeah. Yeah. It’s a very interesting concept, frightening concept. William (03:26): Yes. Debbi (03:27): Also very suspenseful. I think it falls pretty well into a thriller genre in any event. William (03:37): Well, there’s two aspects to it. One, it’s certainly a thriller and even a bit of a psychological thriller with her, a young girl in this new world. But then it develops into a crime series. There’s been a number of murders and we don’t know who’s responsible. And at first she’s even blamed for them, but then we find out it wasn’t completely her doing, but she was involved. Debbi (04:10): Interesting. How does adapting something like that into a podcast differ from adapting for film and television other than the need for sound versus visuals? William (04:25): Yeah, it’s a very good question. Something that was a challenge for us, but we knew from the beginning this really had to feel like a movie. I hate to say that, or a TV series, as if you closed your eyes and were watching it. Debbi (04:42): Exactly. William (04:44): So the performances, and especially that of Scarlett Estevez, our lead, and Josh Mesnik and Ted Owens had to be spot on. And then with the soundscape that we designed, that brought the audience into it. So you can imagine Scarlett, who’s done a lot of voiceover and animation, was very comfortable with it because she’s usually just reading from a script and not acting with other people. But there is the advantage that usually they will show you the picture and the character you’re voicing, and you’ll look to that. In our podcast, I had to ask her to create a whole new persona. There was no Scarlett, no Cielo in real life. So Scarlett went away with the scripts and came back with what she thought the character should be and should sound like. And she was really great and I think got it 99%. And the other 1% or what have you, we worked on in the room, in the studio. Debbi (06:02): Wow. It sounds like you really had a collaborative process going with the actor, that actor at least in particular, and others, I assume? William (06:10): Yeah, all of them. Debbi (06:12): All of them. William (06:12): Yeah. It was an interesting process because of scheduling and such. In the beginning, they were all in the studio with us separately, and they were doing their own pieces. And I had heard obviously Scarlett’s piece, so then I could tell Josh what he was reacting to. And then we could tell Ted Evans where he had to be. And then eventually we thought it would be really cool to get all three of them in the room, which we did. And that was amazing. I mean, we went back and fixed some stuff. I was able to put Scarlett sitting opposite Josh, which is what they’re doing if you know the podcast. It’s an interrogation in that sense. So now they’re sitting opposite each other and we got even better performances, I think. Debbi (07:05): Yeah, the performances are excellent. They really are. William (07:08): Yes. Debbi (07:09): I mean, they draw you in very well. What do you think accounts for the show’s great success? William (07:20): I think it’s the fact, number one, we started with a great premise, a great book. It already had a strong following. It was a bestseller. And when we started telling Pedro’s audience what we were doing, they were all there on social media asking, “When’s it coming? When’s it coming?” And like all good Hollywood things, it took twice as long as we hoped, but we made it twice as better, I always say. I think it’s the fact that we took the time to do it right, that we went back over the performances and honed them and got them better. And then we had the time, we made the decision to take the time to do the soundscape properly, to really go into it. And we did, I think, three or four edits of the soundscape for each episode just to make sure it wasn’t over the top and cartoony, but just stayed in that realistic place where people really feel and felt, I think, immersed in the world. Debbi (08:37): Yeah. I noticed when I was listening to it, there’s a very distinct difference between listening to Cielo, think to herself, voiceover style versus being in the room with the cop. William (08:49): Right. Debbi (08:51): It sounds more like a room. William (08:53): Yeah, which is something which is easy to do if you know you have to do it. And what it was just behind the scenes, it was just turning on this air conditioner noise that there would’ve been in this Holiday Inn in Eugene. She’s talking to herself, she’s almost in a soundproof room or something. It’s in her head. Debbi (09:19): Exactly. William (09:19): And that’s sort of what we were playing with. And the sound effects, I think, do take you from one location to another. Debbi (09:28): Absolutely. Yeah. Certainly it’s less costly to make a scripted podcast production than a full film production. Is that a good motivator for people to start thinking about perhaps breaking into writing scripted podcasts? William (09:46): Well, I’ve done a couple of interviews now, and that question, like yours, got asked. As a filmmaker, it’s fun just to make stuff. My process is I find material, I find a script, a book, even a news article that I think is interesting and see if we can make it into a movie. And in the past, in order to pitch these to the studios or now the streamers, you had to get something creative together. And that was always a pitch, maybe with some visuals. Once in a while, we’d even do a poster. But with this project, we said, “Well, podcasts are becoming of age.” Not so much dramatic, but just podcasts in general, there’s a big audience. So we were saying, “Look, the end goal between you and us is that we hope this will be a TV series.” And we did the podcast with that in mind. (10:58): So this is our calling card towards something bigger. Debbi (11:02): Yes. William (11:03): And it allows the, I’m going to get in trouble for this, the short attention span buyers at the studios to just listen to one or two episodes and totally understand what we’re doing or trying to do. (11:24): And as I referenced always in Hollywood, the tone of it is The Last of Us, the tone of it is Station Eleven. The tone of it is one other project or something. So they get an idea going in what it’ll be like. But still the challenge will be to find a top TV writer, which we’re doing now, to hone and develop probably because there’ll be a longer, probably eight, 10 episodes to develop more characters, more situations for her, take more from the book. We actually left a lot out of the book, but expand it and expand it and of course make it much more visible. We’ll obviously see the earthquake happen. We’ll see the dams break. We’ll see the helicopters. We’ll see the National Guard arriving, et cetera, et cetera. So it’s primed for a TV series. As you mentioned earlier, if we could get the money together to make something like that. (12:35): But podcasts are reasonable to make. Something at our level in terms of production value is more difficult to the individual out there, but I’m very lucky in that I teamed up with Benstown Media, who are a radio production company, and they brought everything to the table that they could in order to make this a first-class podcast. Debbi (13:08): That’s fantastic. Well, I’m glad that it’s worked out so well for you so far because it’s a very, very interesting story. How did you find the actors? And do you think audiobook narrators would be a good place to look for talent in this area? William (13:27): And say that again about narrators? Oh, book narrators. I’ll do. Debbi (13:31): Yeah, book narrators. William (13:31): All right. Yes and no. Where we had our talent, I cast this like a movie. I went afte

  2. Jul 19

    Interview with Caleb Husmann – S. 12, Ep. 3

    My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is poli-sci professor and crime writer Caleb McGee Husmann. We talk a little about his academic specialty–political science–and mostly about writing and crime fiction! For a copy of the transcript, click here. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of several novels, including Exteriors and Interiors, Feral Chickens: A Hawaiian Comedy, and Owen O’Shea: Stay-At-Home Dad, Wannabe Detective. I love that title. Originally from Minnesota. He now lives in North Carolina with his wife Beth and their daughter, Jo. (01:18): It’s my pleasure to have with me today, C. McGee. He writes as C. McGee, but his name is Caleb Husmann . Hi, Caleb. How are you doing today? Caleb (01:28): I’m doing well, Debbi. How are you doing? Debbi (01:30): Just fine, thanks. So according to your bio, you are both professors in the department of two at a small university. Now, is it the subject that is so arcane that only two people are doing it or is the university so small that it can only afford two people in that department? Caleb (01:51): Option B. Option Be. We only got a thousand students. So it’s a small school in downtown Raleigh, North Carolina. So William Peace University. So we’re it, the Department of Two. My wife is my boss, so she’s my boss at work and at home, all the time. Debbi (02:10): I see. I see. And what subject do you teach? Caleb (02:14): We’re political scientists. So we are the entire department. We do a little bit with the criminal justice department as well and then pre-law, but political science is the main thing. Debbi (02:25): Well, it’s an interesting area to be in right now, I guess. Caleb (02:28): There’s always world events happening. That is one, I overall view it as a positive about being a political science professor is even when you’re teaching the same topics, it’s still new because you tie in current events that are happening now. And so I’m whatever almost 15 years into being a professor. I honestly think if I was teaching a subject that didn’t refresh every semester, I would kind of be exhausted of it, but I love it because sure, I’m teaching federalism again, but this time it’s California’s trying to go independent instead of Texas trying to go independent from four years earlier. It’s always something new, which is great. Debbi (03:09): Exactly. Yeah, that’s true. When did you start writing fiction? Caleb (03:16): Graduate school. So it’s funny I say that because in graduate school you’re already writing a ton. You’re writing for class and you’re writing your dissertation and all that sort of stuff. But actually it was during the summer I was interning in DC and usually I was working on the Hill for my member of the house that I worked for, but on my days off, I started to write. I guess I started writing a little bit short stories and stuff before that, but that was the first time I started to write a novel. I don’t know. I guess I was looking for, I played a lot of soccer growing up. I played soccer in college, had a couple trials with some pro teams, and then it didn’t work out. And then I was like, “Well, crap, I got to do something else.” And then I ended up going to grad school and figured out I still needed something that I could really strive for that I wasn’t sure I was going to succeed at. (04:14): I think that was part of the draw of soccer. I love playing soccer, but there was no guarantee that you were going to make it, and so you were striving for something that was kind of out of reach. And with writing novels, I mean, it’s somewhat the same as it’s a tall order and finishing it and getting it out there. And then can you get it published and that whole ordeal? It’s a monumental task, but I find those sorts of challenges draw me in for some reason. I don’t know, maybe I’m a sadist, who knows? Debbi (04:45): I think most writers have a tendency to think of themselves as masochists. We are always seeking ways to challenge ourselves and do better. Caleb (04:56): Yes. Masochist. There you go. That’s the word. Debbi (04:59): Yeah. We are sadistic to ourselves. Caleb (05:01): Yes, there you go. There you go. Thank you. Debbi (05:04): Split personality. Caleb (05:05): Better vocabulary. Debbi (05:07): We have split personalities. We have a sadistic side that picks on our masochistic side. Caleb (05:12): That sounds right. Debbi (05:14): Let’s see. Now your writing style seems very humorous. I like that about it. I love the tone of the O’Shea story. Caleb (05:27): I think it goes along with my personality. I think all of my writing is humorous. Owen O’Shea is definitely the novel that’s, the main character is the most me. The other novels, I definitely had to think through, okay, what would this character be thinking at this time? With Owen O’Shea, I was basically like, all right, what would I do? So it was the easiest to capture that voice because it was the closest to myself just in that sort of situation. But yeah, I think the goal was to find some line between the mysteries. There’s the gritty noir mysteries that tend to come out of Scandinavia and stuff like that. And then there’s the comfy, cozy, Jessica Fletcher, Murder She Wrote type mysteries. And I feel like there’s not necessarily a ton that are in between where they’re a little bit more suspenseful and the humor is a little bit more adult and adult things happen, but it’s also not dark and like The Killing or something like that. Debbi (06:36): Exactly. Yeah. It’s not grotesquely scary or whatever, but there’s just enough in there to keep you on the edge of your seat, keep you turning the pages, that kind of thing. Caleb (06:48): Exactly. So that’s the goal. Debbi (06:50): Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Let’s see. What inspired you to write comedy in general? Caleb (07:00): I think it’s always been a big part of my personality. Another professor was asking me what was my main value? And I think they wanted something profound, but I said fun. Fun was my main value. Debbi (07:14): That’s a great value. Caleb (07:15): Yeah. I mean, who doesn’t like having fun? And I think sometimes we take life too seriously. And even in more serious situations, I’ve always found humor is a great way to deal with it and handle it. And it’s just kind of a natural part of my personality so it naturally comes out in my writing. And so I’ve rolled with it from my first three novels. It’s interesting, the one I’m working on now is the first one I’ve written that’s not really comedic because it’s a horror novel, which is different. But that actually took more time because the comedy is my default way of thinking and so it comes out easier. Debbi (07:55): Exactly. Yeah. Interesting. Do you have a writing routine? Do you have a time when you write? Caleb (08:03): Yes, absolutely. If I don’t sit down and treat it like a shift, then it’s not going to happen. Debbi (08:09): Exactly. Caleb (08:10): I think there’s this romantic notion for writers, but really for all the arts of like, oh, the muse is going to strike and then I’m going to write this great thing. And that’s not really… I’m sure there are people like that. I don’t think it’s most people. I think most people, you show up and you sit and you push, and then two hours later, hopefully something came out. So that’s typically what I do, is typically I will set a timer depending on the day and how much time I have for just two or three hours. And that’s every Tuesday and Thursday because my schedule allows for it. And then Saturday and Sunday, assuming I’m not bringing my daughter to a sports practice or something like that, then I try and do two to three hours on Saturday and Sunday as well. Debbi (09:01): Yeah. Yeah. It takes diligence to do this and you really do have to devote time to it. People don’t realize how much time writers put into their work. Caleb (09:11): It takes ages, ages. And I’m always jealous of… So I just read Stephen King’s On Writing, which was one of the best books on writing. It’s up there with Bird by Bird as my favorite books on writing. Debbi (09:23): I love Bird by Bird. Caleb (09:25): It’s so great. It’s so great. But Stephen King, who it’s interesting, his novels are up and down for me. There’s ones I love. It is one of my favorite novels of all time. The Body‘s one of my favorite novellas of all time, but then there’s other ones that I DNF’ed. So I didn’t know what to expect into going on his book on writing and it was spectacular. It was so good. And he talks about that, that he’s got to sit down and do it. But also in his two-hour session, he can write whatever, 2000 words or something crazy like that. I’m like, at the end of two hours, I’m lucky if I have 500 words. His output is insane. Debbi (10:03): Everybody varies in terms of what they can produce. Caleb (10:07): Yeah. Debbi (10:08): I mean, I know people who say, oh yeah, I can write 10,000 words a day. And it’s like, well, okay, that’s you. Not everybody is like that. Caleb (10:18): I can’t even wrap my head around that. Debbi (10:20): I mean, these galactic figures that I’m just like, okay, really? And how many of those words do you end up throwing out, I wonder? Caleb (10:29): I think maybe that’s some people’s process, having talked to them, is that they just spew it all out. Debbi (10:35): They spew it out. Caleb (10:36): I think the editing really takes them ages and they’re really adding a ton more to the story afterwards. Debbi (10:43): It could be. Or taking out a lot sometimes. Caleb (10:45): Yeah, that’s definitely true. Debbi (10:47): That’s true for movies, that’s for sure. Caleb (10:50): Yeah. I think most novels benefit from being cut down a fair amount, my own included for sure. Debbi (10:55): Oh,

  3. Jul 5

    Interview with Jennifer Lycette – S. 12, Ep. 2

    My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is thriller author Jennifer Lycette. Check out her book titles: The Algorithm Will See You Now and The Committee Will Kill You Now. So … clearly a cozy writer? 🙂 Nope, medical thrillers. Transcripts available for download to all free and paid Patreon members. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is a doctor who writes medical thrillers with a high tech edge. Author of The Algorithm Will See You Now and The Committee Will Kill You Now. It’s a pleasure to introduce my guest, Jennifer Lycette. Hi, Jennifer. How are you doing today? Jennifer (01:14): I’m good. Thank you so much for having me. Debbi (01:16): I’m pleased to have you on. Believe me, I’m always pleased to hear from the medical community as well as medical writers, even though I can’t watch medical shows to save my life anymore. They just make me too tense. Thank you so much for being with us today. I get the feeling from the titles of your books that you might have the tiniest bit of concern about how technology could affect or is affecting the practice of medicine. Is that— Jennifer (01:45): Yes, I think that’s fair to say. I enjoy using fiction to explore complicated scenarios both from the technology and the ethical standpoint. Debbi (02:02): I can appreciate that. Yeah. The ethical standpoint is often a really great place to find those conflicts that you can use in fiction. The titles alone almost sell the books if you ask me, but they are so intriguing. What prompted you to start writing these stories in particular? Jennifer (02:24): Gosh, that’s such a good question. So I can’t really identify any one moment, but I started writing the first one, which was Algorithm about 10 years ago and I had started writing creative nonfiction as sort of a professional outlet and I’ve written some essays about that, like going through professional burnout and discovering writing as I think I’ve heard other authors on your show talk about, and for a lot of us, I think writing is in some ways some form of therapy. And so I was really enjoying that writing and connecting with colleagues. And then I had this idea that I wanted to reach people outside of medicine. And so I think like a lot of new authors, I didn’t know how hard it would be to write a novel, but I sort of grew up reading a lot of thrillers and medical thrillers, Robin Cook and all this, and I thought, well, maybe I could write a medical thriller. And so I just thought of the idea and started writing one day. Debbi (03:45): They just come to you. Yeah. Jennifer (03:46): Yes. Debbi (03:47): They really do. They both take place in Seattle, I noticed, but it’s not the same protagonist. Is it the same hospital or different hospitals? Jennifer (04:01): Yeah, so it’s different hospitals and different protagonists, but they are connected. So they each can be read as standalones. But the second book, The Committee is actually a prequel going back 30 years to tell the story of the antagonist in Algorithm. So I think just all the character work I did to develop her, there’s another minor character that as I was writing Algorithm, I just was like, I think these two had a relationship in the past, but that’s just one line in Algorithm. And so it just got in my head and I was like, I want to write their story. And so I went back and wrote, so they’re middle-aged in Algorithm. And then I went back and wrote when they were young residents in Seattle and just to tell more of the story of how the antagonist whose name is Dr. Mara Maddox, how she ended up being the person she is in Algorithm. Debbi (05:12): That’s really interesting. I love the way you went back and did backstory in a prequel. That’s fantastic. That’s an excellent approach because so often we get to know our protagonists better as we write. Jennifer (05:26): Yes. Debbi (05:26): Am I right? Jennifer (05:28): Yes. There was all this that didn’t end up on the page in Algorithm and I was like, I think I have an additional book here. Debbi (05:37): How I wrote the book of Algorithm. Jennifer (05:41): Yes. Debbi (05:43): This is what I went through. Let’s see. What is it about Seattle that made you choose that as a setting? Jennifer (05:53): That’s a great question. So I think a lot of it was just, it’s near and dear to my heart because that’s where I went to medical school. And I think also I wanted to write something a place I was familiar with, even though I don’t live there anymore. And I think also in a lot of audiences’ minds just because of some of the other media and shows and things, there’s kind of a link between Seattle and medical. Debbi (06:26): That’s right. I keep forgetting about that show that’s named after a book. So to speak. Yeah, I did a little research on you actually. I noticed that you are originally from Alaska. Jennifer (06:41): Yes, very true. Debbi (06:43): I thought it was fascinating. And you went to medical school at a school that would take students from places that did not have medical schools in their state. I thought that that was very unique and interesting. Jennifer (06:58): Yeah, that’s absolutely right. So I went to University of Washington Medical School, but they have a program called WWAMI that stands for Washington, Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, and Idaho. And so those states don’t have their own medical schools. So they basically have a certain number of applicant spots for each of those states because they want to hopefully encourage graduating doctors to go back and practice in those states or in more rural environments. So yeah. Debbi (07:38): I can’t help but be reminded of the show Northern Exposure. Did you ever see that? Jennifer (07:46): I never watched the whole series, but yes, I’ve seen some episodes back some time ago, I guess now. Debbi (07:55): Yeah, that was a very amusing look at Alaska and somebody who is from a very non-Alaska place as I can speak to from experience having lived in New York. Oh boy, going to Alaska from New York would be quite the shock. Jennifer (08:14): I think so. Debbi (08:14): Yeah. And for a while you had a rural medical practice in Astoria, correct? Jennifer (08:22): Yeah, that’s correct. So I didn’t end up going to practice in Alaska, although I did do some clinical rotations up there when I was in training, but I did practice for some years in rural Oregon. Debbi (08:43): Yeah. So that must’ve been quite an experience dealing with rural medicine. I mean, some of the stuff in the things that you talked about in your interview were just like, yeah, that’s the way it is out there. Not everybody has equal opportunity, equal access to good medical treatment or know the right way to take care of themselves. Jennifer (09:10): Yeah, I think that certainly influenced my book idea with Algorithm because I had previously worked in a metro practice and even though I grew up in Alaska, I grew up in Anchorage, which is a fairly moderate size city. And so I think I was a bit naive about some of the limitations of living in non-urban areas and talking with colleagues about, like you said, equal access and even equal access to technology. I don’t want to necessarily go into any deep dives about AI or anything. I think people are probably a bit tired of that. But even just, for example, I had many patients who didn’t have internet, so even checking the patient portal to check their appointment, they didn’t have that. And so just really basic things that I think maybe when at least I know for me, living somewhere where that’s taken for granted, that just experiencing that and how we need to make sure we’re still making sure everybody has equal access and equity. It’s not as straightforward as it at first seems, I think, even in the US. Debbi (10:46): Yeah, definitely. And now you’re in British Columbia and you have a medical practice there, I assume? Jennifer (10:56): Yes, I am still practicing. I’m a medical oncologist, so I still practice. And so yeah, a lot of writing happens on weekends, but— Debbi (11:09): I was going to ask you about your writing routine. Do you have a set number of hours you like to write or a time you like to write? Jennifer (11:21): I would say not typically. There are times when I’m drafting that if I’m really on a good streak, I will try to just hold myself to a thousand words a day. But the reality is just there are some evenings I come home from work and I have enough energy to write and then other times I don’t. And so I just have to tell myself that’s okay. And then I just write on the weekends. So I tend to be someone who just might do a really big chunk on one day and then not anything for some days. So I’m probably not a good role model. Debbi (12:04): Oh, I always figure everybody has their own way. Some people are cranking out 20,000 words a day and then other people are just like, I write whenever I can. Jennifer (12:16): Yeah. Debbi (12:17): So it’s like whatever works for you works for you. What sort of books do you tend to gravitate toward reading? Jennifer (12:27): Oh gosh, I actually read pretty much across all genres except I will say I don’t tend to like horror and I like thrillers obviously, but I don’t tend to like real violent or serial killer types. But often I actually, unless I’m reading for writing research, I tend to actually gravitate these days toward lighter cozy fiction. Debbi (13:09): I get it. Yeah, I can kind of get it. Yeah. I’ve been reading some very funny mysteries lately. It’s like, oh, these are relief, relief from the stress of everything. Jennifer (13:24): Very true. Yes. I find that, too. Debbi (13:28): Okay. I have to ask, are you a big fan of The Pitt? Jennifer (13:33): So it’s so funny you would ask that. Debbi (13:35): Is it as good as everybody says? Jennifer (13:38): So like you kind of mentione

  4. Jun 21

    Interview with Clay Stafford – S. 12, Ep. 1

    My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is Clay Stafford. Check out the plans for the upcoming Killer Nashville conference, which celebrates its 21st anniversary. So, it can now legally drink whatever it wants. 🙂 Transcripts available for download to all free and paid Patreon members. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. Before we get started with the show, I’d like to announce that my third Erica Jensen novel is out now. It came out on June 6th as an ebook. It’s also coming out in print, hopefully soon, probably sometime next week. So be on the lookout for that. And with that, I just hope that you will check the book out and consider giving it a read. Now let me introduce my first guest for season 12. You could say he’s even a regular here. He’s just part of the show now, really. He is in fact a bestselling author, award-winning filmmaker, and creator of Killer Nashville, a fantastic conference that’s held every year in Nashville. It’s Clay Stafford. Hi, Clay. How are you doing? Clay (01:46): Hi, Debbi. I’m doing great. Yeah, I’ve decided that I’m just going to move in, so I hope you have a spare bedroom or something. Debbi (01:53): Dear me. Clay (01:56): Congrats on the new book. Debbi (01:59): I’m sorry? Clay (02:00): Congratulations on the new book. Debbi (02:01): Oh, well, thank you very much. It took long enough for me to get it finished in between trying to tweak screenplays and do other things in between. Clay (02:09): There’s always something going on, always juggling. Debbi (02:12): It’s weird. I mean, it’s like, okay, I’m going to go back to the book now and where was I? And who was this person? I got to go back and check. And I would find things that would change and it was like, oh my God. You really have to spend some time with a novel to really get it done. Clay (02:34): Yeah, you do. Debbi (02:36): It’s like trying to pitch a TV show, actually. TV shows are so dependent on characters that it’s just really, unless you really, really know your characters and where they’re going, there’s just no point. And you really have to know this stuff like the DNA of the whole world you’re creating in a sense. So it’s really interesting. But enough about me and my thoughts about screenwriting. It’s very good to see you. And I was going to say, how many decades have you been running Killer Nashville? And then I looked and I realized it was two. Clay (03:16): Decades. Yeah, started in 2006. Debbi (03:18): That’s amazing. Clay (03:20): Our 21st year. It’s funny how numbers work like that because 2006, 2026, but yet it’s 21. So I don’t know how math works, but … Debbi (03:31): Oh, wow. Clay (03:32): Yes. Debbi (03:33): Oh, wow. Okay. So 21 years. Ooh. Clay (03:36): Years. Debbi (03:37): Darn. Clay (03:40): I’m like 20 years ago today. Debbi (03:43): Yeah, I guess so since you started on The Zero. Yeah, that’s kind of like counting the centuries there. Interesting. Oh, math. Yeah. So what was it like at the beginning versus now? I mean, how many people signed up for the first one and how are you doing now? Clay (04:05): We had about 70 people that showed up the first year and then we started climbing and really our cap this year is 500. (04:19): And we sell out. We’ve been selling out for the past four years now. And so we will definitely sell out and I think we’re going to sell out. Even somebody I was talking to today said we may sell out at the conference by the end of June and the conference is not even until August. So any of your listeners or viewers out there that want to come to Killer Nashville, better check out the website and maybe move forward because we may be selling out early this year, but we sell out every year. And part of it had to do with the venues because they only cap a certain amount and we had only so many conference rooms. And so the first year we had a linear session where it was like class and then another class and another class. (05:13): Now we have 11 sessions going concurrently. So you got a choice of 11, you have to pick one and that goes on for the full four days of the conference. And so there’s a lot of sessions that are going on. So we’ve expanded since in the past two decades into what we’re offering as well as the increase in attendance. But we could have more people there if we opened it up. But those pesky fire marshals, they only say you can have so many people in there at the same time. And so they know what’s going on. But I think we’re at the Embassy Suites in Cool Springs area and they’re incredibly nice and they’ve refurbished the entire hotel. I mean, gutted the hotel this past year. We were the last event before they were waiting for us to finish and the next day they had the demolition crew in there tearing everything out. (06:14): So everything is completely brand new. They added restaurants and the whole little village section around it. So the place is really great. So we rent out the whole hotel and then it’s like a fishbowl. As you know, everybody in there, 100% of them are writers or publishers, editors, attorneys, publicists, and everybody is in there together and you just really get to network and get to know people. And so you asked how to expand from 2006 to now. (06:52): It has gone in many different directions and the expansion’s been good. I can’t believe we’re still around after 21 years. I never thought when the first one, I never looked ahead and thought, well, 21 years from now, I’ll still be doing this. I didn’t have that in mind, but it’s a blast. I love it. I enjoy every year. What’s changed there? There’s more opportunities for writers to find publishers, to find agents through Killer Nashville than we did back in 2006. And so part of the fun for me has always been, as you know, seeing people get a deal, seeing somebody reach a goal that they had and knowing that Killer Nashville and the attendees at Killer Nashville, not just me or not even me, had something to do with the confluence of events that caused that to happen. And I think that it’s been 21 years of seeing people’s lives transformed that in what I think is the most noble profession of all being a writer and being a purveyor of ideas. And so it has just been a joy ride for me. And so I look forward to 20 years more. We’ll see. Debbi (08:29): That’s fantastic. Yeah, that’s great. I can really appreciate what you’re saying because it is wonderful when you can help somebody out with something, give some knowledge to somebody that really helps them out. I’ve done some mentoring with people in my alumni, alumni mentoring, that’s the kind of thing. And it’s the kind of thing I’d like to continue to do actually. Well, Clay (09:00): Well, it’s fulfilling. Debbi (09:03): It is. Clay (09:04): I think that’s very good. Debbi (09:08): By the way, where can I find your films or film? Clay (09:12): Most of them are from PBS and NBC, CBS, ABC, and a lot of them are not available anywhere. And I have absolutely no control over that because I do not own the rights. It costs, the economics of it. People say we produce a film and throw it on Netflix. Actually, you pay Netflix to put it on there. And if the production company like PBS, PBS has a lot of my stuff. If they decided to pay Netflix or whoever, any streaming service, then you would be able to see it, but I don’t have the rights to it, I can’t stream it or put it on anything. So that answers your question. Debbi (10:05): Oh, that’s too bad. But you have made films.That’s cool. Clay (10:10): A few films. I mean, over different kinds between documentaries and episodic TV and stuff, probably about a hundred different credits. And I understand some of the stuff that I used to act in, I got a royalty check from The Guild for performances that are showing in Japan of all places, (10:38): Not in the US and not Japan of all places, but of all places, why isn’t it showing in the US? I don’t know. But anyway, stuff is out there, but it’s really, content has changed so much in the decades that I’ve been in this business. And there are tons, if you’re an old film fanatic such as myself, there are tons of TV shows and films that were major when I was growing up that you can’t find anywhere because it just costs money to put them up on a streaming platform unless the company is NBC or Paramount or something and has their own streaming network. So there’s a whole bunch of deal-making things that have to go into all that. And unfortunately, creators don’t always have the leverage to be able to be involved in those discussions. I took a long way to answer your question. Debbi (11:52): That’s okay. You covered some points that are very interesting. We could really get into that, but instead I will just mention that you have a podcast now. Clay (12:03): I do have a podcast and I’m very excited about that and it’s gotten favorable results so far. People are actually listening to the podcast, but it’s an extension of what I’m doing. I’m talking with bestselling authors just similar to what you do and getting some good perspectives on the industry and you can, of course, stream it on any podcast platform. And I’m just always looking for ways to try to keep getting the information out there to the people that need it. So I mean, that’s what Killer Nashville is all about. So the podcast was a natural evolution on that. And then Killer Nashville Magazine is now going to be an ePub. Starting with the July one issue, that you can purchase on any platform, Amazon or Google or Apple, all of those easing platforms. (13:16): And so that’s an exciting thing as well because we’re getting more exposure for our writers by doing that. And that’s really one of the things that I’ve done. I’ve been really happy. I mean, we’ve gotten picked for best mystery anthologies of

  5. Apr 26

    Interview with Gregory Poirier – S. 11, Ep. 21

    My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is Gregory Poirier. Check out what Gregory has to say about screenwriting, as well as crime writing! You can download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. Our guest today is an acclaimed screenwriter, director, and producer whose work spans film and television. His credits include National Treasure: Book of Secrets, Knox Goes Away, and Rosewood. A graduate of the USC School of Theater and the UCLA Master’s program in screenwriting, his debut novel, A Thousand Cuts will be coming out very soon. In fact, you can probably pre-order it today. It’s my pleasure to have with me, and I forgot to ask how you pronounce your name, so please just say it. Gregory (01:31): Gregory Poirier. Debbi (01:33): Gregory Poirier. Thank you so much. The one thing I forgot to do at the beginning of this. Gregory (01:40): I pronounce it a little more technically than that in France, but … Debbi (01:43): True. Yes, yes. France is … Yeah, they would do it totally right, and we do it totally wrong, but whatever. Sorry about that, France. So anyway, thanks for being here today. Gregory (01:58): Yeah, my pleasure. Debbi (01:58): After a career in film and television, what prompted you to write your first novel? Gregory (02:04): Well, it actually was sort of an organic thing that came up. I mean, there’s a lot of conversation now amongst me and my friends about how this business of ours is changing, and it’s becoming a lot more challenging because it’s shrinking, shrinking, shrinking. Debbi (02:23): Oh, yes. Gregory (02:24): And I’ve been very fortunate that it hasn’t shrunk me out yet, But you never know. And I actually had this idea for this story and I was trying to work it as a screenplay. And I just at some point just decided that the sort of specific voice that I was going for and the sort of tone that I was hoping for wasn’t really coming across that well in the screenplay version. And I finally decided that it’s an action thing. The way that I started this thing was I wanted to do a film that was the film that Humphrey Bogart or Robert Mitchum or one of those guys would make if they were alive now, something with a real sort of noir weigh into it, but with a modern sensibility, modern action, all that kind of stuff. And so that’s what I was trying to achieve. And for whatever reason, it wasn’t coming across. I know I can write a noir because Knox Goes Away was a noir, and that’s probably the favorite movie of mine that I’ve ever done. (03:33): But this was something different and it just wasn’t working. And I was sitting with my gang of writer friends at the Farmer’s Market one week and one of them said, why don’t you write a novel? And I thought I might have the perfect thing to try that. And so I just basically started it as something to try and to see if this story worked better in that form, which it definitely did. And that’s how we got here. Debbi (04:02): Why do you think it works better as a novel? Gregory (04:05): I think that there’s a lot of reasons, but I think for one thing, I think it’s easier to exert your own voice in this form of writing as opposed to in a screenplay. I mean, I feel like Knox, to bring that movie up again, it’s probably the closest thing that I’ve ever done where it was sort of my voice that came across. But a lot of time you’re trying to not inject your own voice into it. For instance, Rosewood, which was a historical drama, needed to have a certain cadence, needed to have a certain feel and way of speaking and all of that kind of stuff. And it’s not me. You’re purely, at that point, a writer, which is great. I enjoy that very much. But this, I just wanted to inject some of my personality into it more. And that’s definitely easier in a book than it is in a screenplay. (05:03): And in a screenplay, you write it and then it goes through actors, it goes through directors, it goes through editors. I mean, there’s a lot of people between you and the audience, whereas in this thing, you’re talking directly to your reader, which I really enjoyed a lot. Debbi (05:19): And I take it that you worked with an editor who got what you were trying to say. Gregory (05:25): Absolutely. I worked with Keith Wallman at Diversion Books, and he was very, very into what I was trying to do. He understood it right away and was very supportive. Debbi (05:39): It’s fascinating how the fields differ in that respect, how little of yourself in a sense goes into screenwriting. At the same time, how much of it, because where do these characters come from except from you? So we start with that and then people start to chip away at it a little bit. Gregory (05:58): It’s also a really different type of writing. I mean, screenwriting is 100% external. (06:07): All you can put on the page is what the audience sees and what the audience hears. You don’t get a chance … You need to bring out whatever the emotion of the character is and whatever their journey is and all that through those two things, what you see and what you hear. And that’s all you have. You don’t have this ability to delve into the inner monologue and to go into the past of everybody and to sort of really dig into these characters. So it’s a very highly technical form of writing. There’s very rigid structures to it. It’s just very different than this. And it’s not easy. I mean, it’s difficult to do, but it’s just different. And so this was a lot of fun. Debbi (06:51): That is a very good point. I’m so glad you said that because that’s one of the things that I emphasize when I talk to people about screenwriting, about how different it is. Gregory (07:00): Yeah, it’s totally— Debbi (07:01): Similar, but different. Gregory (07:04): The analogy I sort of use is that I’ve been an electrician for 35 years and I’ve been gathering all these electrician tools, and now I’m trying to take all the tools that I’ve gathered and do some plumbing. Debbi (07:16): Exactly. Gregory (07:19): You’re still trying to do something practical, but it’s a completely different form and you need different tools. Debbi (07:26): And you hope there isn’t a leak in your pipe somewhere. Gregory (07:28): Yeah. Debbi (07:31): Somebody’s going to point that out to you. Let’s see. What attracted you to the spy genre? I love the spy genre. Gregory (07:42): It’s interesting because this is a little bit spy genre, but it’s also, what it’s really about, it’s about a bunch of ex-spies. So it’s about a lot of people that have a lot of skills that they developed when they were working for the CIA that are now out of that world and are trying to figure out ways to use the things that they know how to do in a different way, which is why when we meet our main character, Max Starkey, he’s working as what I call a recovery man for the mob, basically. If they lose something or something gets stolen from them or whatever, he goes and he gets it back. And it’s like the only thing he was able to find in civilian life were the things that he learned how to do in the CIA were of use to him. So I do like the spy genre and I do like those kind of books, but this is really like a post-spy drama more. (08:41): And at the same time, the other couple, I guess you would call them the antagonists in the book are the same thing. They’re people he knows from his past, but they’re also out and they’re using their contacts and their skills and all that kind of stuff to make a very, very good living, doing highly questionable things. Debbi (09:04): Did you— Gregory (09:06): I’m sorry? Debbi (09:07): Oh, I’m sorry. I was just going to say, did you have to do a lot of research on the subject? Gregory (09:12): I did. And a lot of the research that I did, I did years earlier for other things because I’ve been writing for a long time. I’ve been a screenwriter for 35 years and like every screenwriter, I have a lot of projects that came and went and never got made and that kind of thing. But I’ve been to Langley. I’ve met all these people. I’ve done all this stuff in my career over the years in research for other projects and stuff. So I didn’t have to really dig into that stuff too much. I know how Langley works. I know what the building looks like inside. I know I have all that stuff, but I did do a lot of research in terms of locations and tech stuff, like the things that I wanted to use in the book. I don’t know what you would call it, guns and hotels or whatever. (10:17): I did do a lot of heavy duty research into that kind of stuff. And I like to be as realistic as possible in terms of it’s going to take this long to get from here to here, and these are the things we’re going to encounter on the way, and that kind of stuff. I like to make it as grounded as possible because it’s a bit of a fantastical story, but it takes place in the real world. Debbi (10:40): Exactly. Gregory (10:41): Yeah. Debbi (10:43): Yeah. Gregory (10:46): But I enjoy research. I like it. Debbi (10:48): Me too. Yeah. It’s amazing what you find when you look. Gregory (10:53): Well, my biggest problem with researching stuff is stopping. Debbi (10:57): I know. It’s like, oh my God, this actually happened somewhere? Ooh, this is interesting. Gregory (11:03): And I also, I’ve traveled a lot and I’ve traveled a lot in Southeast Asia, which is where the book is set. And so I was able to take a lot of experiences that I had down there and sort of incorporate them into the book in more dramatic ways. And than they happened to me obviously. Debbi (11:20): Right, right. How do you structure your writing time? Do you have a time for writing? Do you have a schedule that you write on? How do you balance it with your other projects? Gregory (11:33): For the first four hours a day, I berate myself constan

  6. Apr 5

    Interview with Liz Lazarus – S. 11, Ep. 20

    My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is Liz Lazarus. Listen in on her remarkable story. I’m ready to sign-up for karate class now. You can download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today has an engineering degree and a very interesting background in general. Among other things, she lived in Paris for three years and speaks fluent French. She has a pilot’s license and has produced a music CD. She’s also the author of several legal thrillers, including her latest, Dawn Before Darkness, which is available on Kobo, as well as in print or will be, I guess, in May. Liz (01:28): Will be. May 26th. May 26th. Yeah. Debbi (01:31): May 26th. There, you heard it now. You heard it there. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Liz Lazarus. I’m trying not to say Liz Lemon. Liz (01:42): It’s a tongue twister. Liz Lazarus. Yeah. Debbi (01:44): Liz Lazarus. It’s a lovely name. I love it. I love that name. That’s cool. What made you choose to write Thrillers? Liz (01:54): Well, I would tell you, as you said, I’m an engineer. I’m probably the most reluctant author you’ll meet. I did not intend to be an author, and that may be the story for lots of people. But my first book, Free of Malice, was based on a real story, something that happened to me in college. And the novel actually was just me writing about what happened to start with. And then it turned into a novel. And I was going to be one and done after Free of Malice, and people that were reading it said, “Can’t wait for the next one.” And so I thought, okay. And it took me a while to agree to write the second one. And then once that was done, that was Plea for Justice, then came Shades of Silence and now Dawn Before Darkness. So now I feel like it’s a bad addiction. Debbi (02:36): Wow. And each one of these is a standalone novel, not a series. Liz (02:40): They are standalone. I like to give my characters closure and move on to new people. Debbi (02:45): That’s cool. Yeah, I can appreciate that. Your first novel was inspired by a real event, correct? Liz (02:53): Correct. Debbi (02:53): What was it like to write in a fictional form about a thing that really happened? Liz (03:00): It was therapy. So what happened in brief, I was in college at Georgia Tech. I was living off campus in this area called Home Park, which is a bunch of old houses, college students, a fair amount of riff raff. It wasn’t the safest area. And it was my senior year. I was going to sleep that night. I was living with two other girls in a house. And at four in the morning, I wake up to the sound of my bedroom door crashing open. Debbi (03:26): Oh my God. Liz (03:26): And I remember distinctly thinking, “Is this real?” And my next thought was, “This is real. You’ve got to deal with it. ” And you don’t know what you’re made of. Thank goodness I had fight in me, so I started fighting back. And eventually, at one point I write about this in the book, he says, “If you shut up, I’ll leave.” And I thought, “I’m not shutting up. I’m screaming louder.” And eventually he gave up and I left. So I didn’t have any self-protection at the time. I had a can of mace. I ran to the door, watched him run away into the darkness. And so for me, the writing about it, writing about the PTSD that I had. I didn’t even know what that word was, but I started writing about how I felt, what happened, how I would check every nook and cranny in the house. (04:09): And I had said to my brother-in-law afterward, “If I’d had a gun, I would’ve shot him.” And he said, “Well, that may not have been self-defense. By the time you could have shot him, he was retreating off your property. You would’ve shot him in the back.” And that got me really curious about where’s that line between self-defense and vigilantism. And then my mother asked a question, which I won’t tell you because it gives away the ending, but she asked just the most out of the blue question. And I thought, wow, that would make a killer ending to a book. And that was it. And it took me years later. For anyone who’s thinking of writing a book, it took me years later. I did all those other things on my bucket list and the book just wouldn’t leave me alone, so I wrote it. Debbi (04:51): Yeah. It’s kind of an itch that you got to scratch. Liz (04:57): It wasn’t going away. And I had the plot in my mind, and it had been brewing in my mind for a while. And I’m super lucky. I had a lawyer who helped me with the legal part. I had a therapist who helped me with the EMDR therapy, which is in the book, therapy I never did. And so the whole thing was just a great project. Debbi (05:16): Interesting. At this time, are you working at a regular job or do you have a business? I understand you were head of operations for a healthcare startup at some point. Liz (05:31): I’ve done two startups. The last one, and now I’m currently on one, but we’re in engineering development, so they don’t need me a lot because I do more of the operations. So I’ve got a fair amount of free time at the moment. But my background was 20 years at GE Healthcare and 10 years consulting. And I do some consulting on my own, but when I’m writing a book or launching a book, I don’t do much consulting. Debbi (05:53): Yeah. Yeah. You want to focus on that book. Yeah. Liz (05:55): This is a job in of itself. Debbi (05:57): It sure is. It sure is. Liz (06:01): Yeah. Debbi (06:02): I think a lot of people don’t really realize that when they get into this, how much of a job it is. Do you have a regular writing schedule? Liz (06:12): I don’t. I do an outline. I am a plotter. I outline an Excel with color coding. Debbi (06:18): Why am I not surprised? Liz (06:19): Fair. Debbi (06:21): You’re an engineer. You have a scientific mind, and I get it. Liz (06:26): So because I do that, I don’t have to write in order. So I write when something gives me content. If I’ve met someone or a story shows up or I’ve interviewed someone, I write when I have content. Debbi (06:36): Cool. I like that approach. How much research do you usually do before or while you’re writing the novel? Liz (06:46): It depends. The first one and this fourth one are based on real events. And so I didn’t have to do as much as I thought because I knew a lot of it. Now, the legal part, I had to do research and I always rely on my lawyer friends to help me. The third one, I relied a lot on my friend who’s a detective, a retired detective. And this current one, it was a balance. So the current one, Dawn Before Darkness, is a stalker story and a guardianship abuse story. So the stalker part, I interviewed 10 women who had stalkers and combined their stories to this uber-villain. And then the guardianship story is actually my real story that I was fighting for guardianship for my mother. And so most of that, I didn’t need to do research. I lived it. And again, was therapy to write about it. Debbi (07:33): Yes. How did you find the 10 women that you interviewed? Liz (07:41): Great question. From my fan base. So I had just posted … Well, the first person, Dawn, Dawn Hillier was the inspiration behind me writing the stalker story. She had a stalker. We had become friends and she told me about her story. And so that was in my mind, I was always going to write the stalker story. And then I posted on Facebook just out to my readers and said, “If anybody’s had a stalker and is willing to be interviewed, I’d love to talk to you. “ Debbi (08:08): Wow. Liz (08:09): And sadly, I had too many volunteers. That’s a sad state of affairs. So I picked 10 women, 10 stories. And then at that same time, my guardianship case was continuing to play out. And the real light bulb for me was, how do I combine those two things? How do I combine guardianship fighting for your mom and then a stalker? And when I was able to do that, I think this is my best one yet. Debbi (08:34): Wow. That’s one of the most useful parts about Facebook, finding other people. And yet somehow I don’t really like Facebook. I wish I could like it more. You know what I’m saying? It’s so hard for me to get into it somehow. Liz (08:55): It’s fun to keep up with people. I’m not 100% convinced it sells books, but to me, people tend to want the books when they’ve heard my talk or they’ve had a referral. So I do it some, but I don’t overpost. I feel like that might annoy people. So I try to do it with moderation. Debbi (09:16): Moderation. Absolutely. That’s a great suggestion. What authors have most inspired you as a writer? Liz (09:25): Different ones. Well, the very first one actually was my grandfather. He wrote a very different genre. He wrote a children’s book called Follow My Leader. His name’s James Garfield. And he wrote about a little boy who was blinded by a firecracker. That book came out in the 50s and it’s still in print today. So I guess I had the writing bug in me somewhere. And then as far as what I read, I read a lot of thrillers. And I tend to be, I’m on a kick right now with all the British thriller writers. So Clare MackIntosh, B.A. Paris, that crew. And a lot of it’s because I do audiobooks and I love listening to the British accent. But Michael Robotham, K.J. Howe, there’s so many. Debbi (10:11): Yeah. Michael Robotham. I’m familiar with him. Liz (10:14): He’s great. Debbi (10:16): Nice guy, too. Liz (10:17): Oh, you’ve met him. That’s great. Debbi (10:19): We were on a panel once ages ago. Liz (10:20): That’s a treat. Yeah. Debbi (10:22): Yeah, It was. It was a real treat. Liz (10:24): What I like about him is his twists, and I always have a twist. Every one of my books has a twist. His twists are earned. I love that about how he writes. Debbi (10:35): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Let’s see. How did you start writing fiction? Did you

  7. Mar 15

    Interview with Graciela Kenig – S. 11, Ep. 19

    My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is Graciela Kenig, a crime writer who can tell you a tale in two languages. But she’s giving away her debut novel, The Plans They Made, in English. I forgot to ask about translations! Check out the transcript of our interview here.   Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today has been a feature journalist, online forum contributor, and careers columnist. Her work has appeared in the Chicago Tribune, the Sun-Times, and other national publications. Her debut novel, The Plans They Made, won the 2022 Page Turner Award for best genre writing. So it is my pleasure to introduce you to my guest, Graciela Kenig. Am I saying that correctly, Kenig? Graciela (01:31): Yes, you are. Yes. And thank you for having me. It’s amazing. You’re saying both things correctly and that’s cool. Debbi (01:40): Ah, well, you see, I’m married to an Italiano man. His last name, if you pronounced it correctly, would sound very different from the way people actually pronounce it, when they can pronounce it. It’s funny. I have no problem with vowels, folks. I did take Spanish, so that helped in junior high and high school and all that stuff. So how are you doing anyway? Graciela (02:07): I’m doing fine. Thank you. I’m just looking forward to spring in Chicago. Debbi (02:12): We’ve had a rough one. Graciela (02:12): Yeah. Debbi (02:14): All right. You’ve had a very interesting career from writing features to having your own column. How did you go about developing this particular career path? Graciela (02:26): Some of it was very organic. I wanted to be a writer from the get- go when I was little, and of course the language, because I was born in Argentina and I wrote in Spanish. And so I moved to the United States with my family and I had studied English, but you don’t use it every day until you have to. And so yeah, it kind of started like that, that I wanted to be a writer. And for the longest time, even though I had been encouraged about how I could write well, I kept thinking that Spanish was the language I should write in because that’s what I was very comfortable with. So I entered the newspaper writing career because the Chicago Sun-Times had started a section in Spanish. So I started writing articles for them, no journalist training. It’s just like, okay, let’s see what happens here. (03:23): And so I learned quickly and soon enough they asked me if I would come in part-time to help the editor because he was not a native-born Spanish speaker, if I could just do a final sweep of his columns. He’d already done his editing, so I had to go back and make sure that everything was okay. And so that column, I think it lasted for sometimes a couple years. And then you’re inside this newspaper. And so somebody says, “Do you write in English too?” I do. And I was always drawn to being somebody who could give you advice. So some of the things that I liked for a while, eventually I freelanced for the Chicago Tribune and there I got in because I was writing for a know-how section. So I could write about how do you put together a ceiling fan? And so those kinds of things like that. (04:20): And I wrote for a bunch of local papers and eventually I kind of started doing other things, getting interested in helping people with their career. And then The Tribune started a Spanish language newspaper, and that one lasted 10 years. And I wrote the careers column. So it was this interesting thing that kind of opened doors for me as to how I can help people in a very more specific way. And I felt that I wanted to help the Latino community because oftentimes we tended to be real roaded into one kind of job or another kind of job. And at least I said, “If you’re bilingual, you can do that and the other thing.” And the more I did that, the more I realized it wasn’t just being able to speak another language, it was also about the cultural issues. So it was very organic and went like that, but I always, always wanted to write fiction. Debbi (05:18): Oh, that is so cool. I love what you’re saying. That is just fantastic. What inspired you to write your novel? What inspired the idea for it? Graciela (05:32): I knew somebody who had put off, reconnect them with their best friend back in the time when you didn’t have easily, you couldn’t send faxes. I mean, that kind of stuff, you just sent—snail mail was the only way to communicate or calling, and that was expensive. And so it was put off. And when they were about to get together, this other friend had died. And so that was the seed of this. But, in big part, I used that for, I was taking a writing class and that was a prompt. And it was something like I wrote one scene and then the next assignment was write it from the other person’s point of view, which is so me because I think I like writing and I think a lot of us in the arts tend to … You have an artist sensitivity when you can see things from different perspectives, when you can be an outsider. (06:33): And within your thing, it’s very hard to know your own culture, your own … Everybody does the same thing in your little life. Debbi (06:42): Correct. Yeah. Graciela (06:44): You know what I mean, in your circle of friends and acquaintances. And so I’ve always felt somehow, especially after we moved to the United States as an outsider. So you observe things in very different ways. You notice things other people don’t. And that’s really … And that’s what I liked about the idea too, is I developed the protagonist, Kate, being a journalist. I had all that experience myself, but she was an outsider. She’s visiting London in a country she doesn’t really know, which also was helpful to me because that way I could look at London, not as the expert that I’m not. It was just like, okay, how did she see it as having been a journalist and a writer when she’s there trying to find who killed her friend? I mean, the inspiration, the person that I knew did not … was not killed. She was in an accident. Debbi (07:44): Right. Graciela (07:45): You take your, what do they call your literary? Debbi (07:49): Exactly. Graciela (07:50): Yeah. Debbi (07:51): It’s interesting how things like a prompt and then twisting it around, changing the perspective can really make you think about it and the possibilities. Graciela (08:03): Yeah. Debbi (08:04): Good, good, good approach there. Great stuff. What was it that made you choose the thriller genre? Graciela (08:12): In a sense, it was organic as well. I was taking … A few years ago during the pandemic, I became involved with this group, StoryGrid, which most people think of StoryGrid as an editing tool, but they did start something where we had these groups and Sean Coyne, who’s the founder who wrote the book, basically would have these workshops. And so I started to realize that what I was thinking about really was very much in line with a thriller. It wasn’t what I intended to do. And although I had never been a real avid reader of thrillers, I had watched a lot of thrillers and movies and that kind of thing in both worlds in Argentina and Spanish and here, because my dad loved that stuff. He loved detectives. He loved police procedurals and all those kinds of things. And I just watched them because he liked them and I liked them too. Debbi (09:12): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We watched a lot of those in our house too. And I remember distinctly when I was growing up, there was a show called Honey West about a female private eye, and it lasted for one season. I was so angry when they took it off. I said, I don’t believe they took that show off. The one show where I get to see a woman do something really cool. Graciela (09:40): It’s pretty rare back. Debbi (09:42): Exactly. Early ’60s, that was almost like a bizarre event, but it was really just a great show. And then The Avengers came along and filled that hole for me a little bit. Emma Peel was my heroine. Graciela (10:02): Yeah. I liked the visual part about the movies showing action. It’s always a lot harder to describe action in words, but— Debbi (10:11): It is, yeah. Graciela (10:12): Punching. And I mean, I do thrillers, but I don’t like horror. It can be part of a thriller thing. And I also, I guess because of my upbringing, thrillers usually have to be political in nature, have some political thing. Debbi (10:28): I get it. Graciela (10:29): Yeah. Debbi (10:30): I totally get it. Graciela (10:31): There were like 15 political parties in Argentina, and even [inaudible] knew about them. It’s crazy. So yeah. Yeah. Debbi (10:39): If we could only come up with a third one here. Graciela (10:43): Yes, it would be helpful, wouldn’t it? Yes. Yes. Debbi (10:46): A little balance somewhere along the line. Let’s see. You described yourself in another interview as a slow writer, primarily I think due to a lot of research that you do? How much research do you do before you start writing or while you start writing or while you are writing? Graciela (11:06): I like doing research. It can be a rabbit hole. If I don’t stop myself. But I tend to just … With this one, and I’m writing a second novel now, with The Plans because I was still working full-time, it took me a long time to write it. And there I went to London to see that. And when I was in there, I came up with other ideas. I thought, oh, what happened that year in London? And there’s a chapter when it all has to do with President George W. Bush who was visiting there. So I thought he was here. So I like the idea of having … It’s not a historical novel, but I like having historical places, placeholders, so to speak. And that is how the story devolved in a sense. And I like that a lot because I do research a little before, but I also do a lot when I discover that I’m missing something and I don’t know. Debbi (12:14): Precisely. Yeah. Graciela

  8. Mar 1

    Interview with Joy Ann Ribar – S. 11, Ep. 18

    My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with the author of two mystery series, Joy Ann Ribar. Learn all about the Deep Lakes and Bay Browning series here! Transcript available here. Debbi (00:12): Hi, everyone. I hope the year is going well for everybody. Today I have as my guest, the author of two mystery series, the Deep Lakes Cozy Mysteries and the Bay Browning Mysteries. She is also a frequent traveler by RV with her husband and has blogged about some of her travels that have included some landmarks of literary note I might add. It is my pleasure to introduce my guest mystery author, Joanne Ribar. I’m sorry, Joy Ann Ribar. I mispronounced your first name instead of your last. Joy (01:35): Something is always bound to trip somebody up. It’s quite right. It’s so nice to be here with you today, Debbi. I feel like I’ve waited for this day forever. Debbi (01:47): I feel like I wait for a lot of things forever. I got to tell you. Yeah, the waiting is the hardest part. Oh boy. Don’t sue me, Tom Petty, please. It was just a small snippet. I didn’t even really sing it. Joy (02:02): Right. Exactly. Anyway, less than 30 seconds. I think you’re good. Debbi (02:05): Oh, there’s no real. Yeah, there is no nothing like that. It’s all very depends on all these factors as they put it. It’s like a combination of factors. Anyway, having said all that, how are you doing today? Joy (02:22): I’m doing really well. Speaking to you from Arizona today, which is a whole lot different than Wisconsin right now. Wisconsin is very snowy. They just got dumped on again and here in Arizona it’s sunny and dry. Debbi (02:38): Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah, it’s better than … we’ve got snow all over the place here and we have more snow here in Maryland. That’s supposed to be coming, so that’s throwing all sorts of spokes in our … sticks in our spokes, so to speak. Joy (02:55): Right. A wrench in the works. Debbi (02:58): Yeah. Totally a monkey wrench in the works for sure. I mean, it just screws you up all around. Traveling. Any sort of plans you have, who knows? Maybe things will happen, maybe they won’t. Joy (03:10): Right. Debbi (03:11): I’m curious, did you have a career before you started writing fiction or have you always written fiction? Joy (03:17): Oh, definitely. I’ve had a few careers. I started life as a, well, I was a journalist first and worked as a newspaper reporter and an assistant editor and a photographer, and then I went on to work for a law firm as a paralegal. So I did a lot of legal writing, which everything I’ve done seems to be centered around writing. And then I became an English teacher and I taught high school English, followed by college English. And then in 2017 I became a semi-retired part-time teacher. Found out I had a lot of time on my hands and decided I would try to do some writing of my own with fiction. And so I wrote my first book in 2018. Debbi (04:14): And which book was that? Joy (04:16): And that was Deep Dark Secrets, and it was the first in the Deep Lakes Cozy Mysteries. I wrote it in real time. It was January. I was in Wisconsin, looked out the window. It was snowing. It was cold. The streets were quiet, the snow was piling up in the crooks of the trees, and I thought, it’s beautiful out here, but how do I share the beauty of winter with readers who don’t know winter? And that was kind of how all of my mysteries then became set in different seasons in Wisconsin because I wanted to focus on the season even as much as I wanted to give them a good mystery. Debbi (05:02): That’s really interesting. It’s like you’re focusing on a local area and the way it changes over time. Joy (05:10): Yes, yes, exactly. And in that series, which there are five books plus a standalone Christmas book, but I wrote each one in a season and I picked up, I just continued where the last one left off as far as it being set in the same year, but in the next season and in the next season. That was how I set those mysteries, and it really gave the characters a chance to evolve even within their own relationships and in their own maybe quirks and obstacles in life. Debbi (05:50): It’s really fascinating because this is the first time I’ve heard somebody talk so much about setting, the setting as a part of the story. Joy (06:00): And I think for me, because it’s a cozy series, it was so important to have that setting become a place where maybe people wanted to come and visit and escape. It became a central part because it was a small town or it is a small town set in a tourist town, and everybody knows everybody. And so all of the shops have their own kind of personalities, and the people come and go, and they’re recurring characters. So it almost is kind of like a TV series in a way where people can come in and they know exactly what to expect. They come to that town, they come to the bakery, they come to the wine lounge, they go to the waterfall park. They just know what they’re going to get every time they come and visit. Debbi (06:54): Yeah, yeah, that’s really cool. I think our environments do affect us as people, so definitely living in Wisconsin would have a different effect on people than say a person living in Arizona, their environment. Joy (07:11): Definitely. And I think the more I travel, certainly the more I am aware of how local things really are in this really huge country that we live in. And I talked to so many readers who have never been to Wisconsin, and you get your own conception of a place. I mean, I think of Florida and the first thing I think of is Disney World. So people think of Wisconsin, and what I hear from people is, oh, it’s cold there, but it’s not cold all the time. It does get cold, but that’s only part of Wisconsin. And I really wanted people to see that there were so many layers in Wisconsin and so much different kinds of beauty, because again, I think people also think farmland. And there’s a lot more than farmland in Wisconsin too. There’s many different landscapes. Debbi (08:11): Well, Madison is a really nice little town. I went there for a Bouchercon once. I really loved it. It was so walkable. Joy (08:20): It is, and it’s such a popular community. It’s very artsy and cultural and yeah, I love Madison. That’s where I went to college, so it’s kind of one of my favorite places too, to be in Wisconsin. Debbi (08:36): Kind of like the old stomping grounds. Joy (08:38): Yes, indeed. Debbi (08:41): You had, I think, mentioned in one of the descriptions of this series that they’re kind of like standalones in the same place. You could start with any of them? Joy (08:52): What I would say is, I mean, you actually could, but what I would say is there’s a definite arc in my main character. She very much changes from somebody who is very unsure of herself in the beginning because she starts doing this amateur investigative reporting, and she doesn’t know how to ask questions. She doesn’t know who she should talk to. She certainly knows she shouldn’t cross police tape, but she does anyway. And she knows some things about the law because she herself had worked in the legal field for a time before she decided to run a bakery in a wine lounge. (09:40): But there’s a definite arc to her character. Her character changes quite a lot and evolves quite a lot from being that uncertain person as she goes through a lot of different things throughout the series and also even in her relationships. Those change as well. Be that, and after having said that though, I’m a person who, I read series sometimes and there’s 25 books, and I’m not sure I’m going to commit to 25 books. And if I see something and I pick it up and I say, this catches my eye because of the plot line or the concept, I read the back of that book and I tell people the same thing. If you read the back of my book and you say, oh, this is cool. This is about a legendary curse, which is my second book. Oh, this is really cool. This is about birding. If somebody is really into that and says, I just want to pick up book three or four, I say, go for it. Debbi (10:45): But you still have a protagonist who is, I take it a reporter or a … Joy (10:50): She is. Debbi (10:50): Kind of a newbie reporter, Joy (10:52): A newbie reporter. She has a lot to prove. In the first book, she conveys to the readers that she wanted to be an investigative journalist, and the local newspaper editor would not hire her. Instead, he wanted her to hire her to print stories about her winery and recipes from the bakery and things like that. And she took that, took that as a little bit of an insult, like, oh, maybe you’re not taking me seriously because I’m a woman, or maybe you’re just not taking me seriously because you think I just bake for a living. And so it’s an opportunity that happens with her in the first book, is she stumbles upon a crime scene or a suspicious murder. It isn’t even a crime scene, but it’s a suspicious death. And she says, it’s January in Wisconsin. There’s not a lot going on at the bakery. I think I’m just going to poke around a little bit and ask some questions. And so she evolves in the newspaper reporting sideline that she has, and eventually she gets hired by a regional paper to just be an occasional reporter. But lucky for her, even in this beautiful cozy town, there seems to be a lot of murders. Debbi (12:20): Nobody’s immune from murder, even small towns. Joy (12:24): No, exactly. Debbi (12:27): Let’s see. So how is the Bay Browning series different? I noticed that it tends to be more literary focused. Joy (12:36): Yes. So for me, the series was born out of the fact that I was missing teaching literature. I actually really loved teaching literature. I loved having discussions with my high school students about classical books and poetry, and I was missing that. And I

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About

Interviews and entertainment for crime fiction, suspense and thriller fans.

Information

  • Creator
    Debbi Mack
  • Years Active
    2015 - 2026
  • Episodes
    258
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2015 - 2021 Debbi Mack
  • Show Website
    The Crime Cafe