The Elements of Deep Sea Mining

Eric Young

Details and Dialogue Matter tradingoff.substack.com

  1. #36: Critical Minerals Explained: It’s Not Just About Scarcity - Pierre Josso (Part 1)

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    #36: Critical Minerals Explained: It’s Not Just About Scarcity - Pierre Josso (Part 1)

    In this episode, Pierre Josso (Deputy Director, Critical Minerals Intelligence Centre – British Geological Survey) breaks down the concept of criticality as a function of risk, priorities and politics. This conversation gets deep into how critical minerals are actually assessed, why supply disruptions happen, and why we have to remember the point is communication toward decision making. Pierre brings a rare perspective that combines geology, data-driven analysis, and policy advisory, offering a more complete view of how governments evaluate mineral dependence and risk. Follow Pierre on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/pierre-josso-88172b59 UK Critical Minerals Intelligence Centre: https://ukcmic.org/ Chapters: * 00:00 – Introduction * 03:19 – Defining Criticality * 05:34 – Scale and Subjectivity in Criticality Assessments * 09:40 – Methodology: Quantifying Economic Importance * 12:42 – Market Sentiment and Price Volatility * 16:52 – The Challenges of Data Resolution * 20:03 – Analyzing Supply Risk and Bottlenecks * 23:41 – Recyclability and By-products * 27:44 – Geopolitical Market Manipulation * 32:16 – The “Black Box” of Global Supply Chains * 34:47 – Setting the Threshold for Action * 39:18 – The Limits of Predicting the Future * 44:16 – Technological Feedback Loops * 48:26 – Closing Remarks: Criticality is Not a Geological Problem This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com

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  2. #35: Complex Trade-Offs and Environmental Decision-Making: Paul Hirsch on Values, Governance, and Power

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    #35: Complex Trade-Offs and Environmental Decision-Making: Paul Hirsch on Values, Governance, and Power

    In this episode, I spoke with Paul Hirsch, Professor of Environmental Studies at the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry, where he directs graduate programs in environmental leadership and decision making. Hirsch’s research focuses on how societies navigate difficult environmental decisions involving competing values, uncertainty, and governance challenges. The conversation explores Hirsch’s concept of “complex trade-offs”—the idea that environmental decisions rarely produce clear winners and losers, and that framing them as simple “win-win” outcomes can be misleading. They discuss how values, governance processes, and interdisciplinary dialogue shape decision-making in complex environmental debates, and what this perspective might mean for discussions around Deep-Sea Mining. Timestamps 00:00:00 — Introduction00:01:38 — No Win-Win Decisions00:05:04 — Complexity & Ambiguity00:07:36 — Ordinary Language Thinking00:12:16 — Integrative vs Integrated00:14:58 — Fruit Salad Thinking00:18:43 — What Are Values?00:20:27 — Principles vs Pathways00:27:19 — Learning Together00:32:42 — Process Over Analysis00:33:52 — Workable Good00:36:34 — The Decision Isn’t the End00:37:45 — Three Lenses00:54:02 — Interdisciplinary Work00:59:04 — Research & Programs01:00:00 — Trust & Leadership01:01:00 — Finding a Workable Good Papers Mentioned * Hard Choices: Making Trade-offs Between Biodiversity Conservation and Human Well-Being (2011) * Acknowledging Conservation Trade-offs and Embracing Complexity (2011) * Navigating Complex Trade-Offs in Conservation and Development: An Integrative Framework (2013) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com

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  3. #34: Ed Nedelciu and the Growth Paradigm in Deep Sea Mining

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    #34: Ed Nedelciu and the Growth Paradigm in Deep Sea Mining

    Claudiu Ed Nedelciu, Ecological Economics Researcher at UiB joins the podcast to challenge the “inevitability narrative” of deep-sea mining. While the industry often frames extraction as a prerequisite for a green transition, Ed argues that this demand is artificially sustained by Growthism, a systemic requirement for 2-3% annual GDP growth that operates independently of actual human or environmental needs. He discusses his recent analysis of over 100 research papers, revealing how the majority of current scholarship operates within a “Growth Paradigm,” effectively legitimizing extraction before the first commercial license is even granted. Ed is a SEAS Postdoctoral Research Fellow in Natural resource management & system dynamics. Follow Ed LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/claudiu-eduard-nedelciu-93669a42ReserachGate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Claudiu-Nedelciu Chapters 00:00 Welcome and Introduction to Ed Nedelchu01:49 From Natural Resource Management to Ecological Economics03:02 The Inevitability Paradigm04:52 Defining Growthism06:42 Degrowth vs. Recession: A Planned Socio-Ecological Framework13:53 The Greenwashing of Sustainability: A Critique of Green Growth15:38 The Seven Hurdles: Why Decoupling is an Illusion16:59 The Rebound Effect (Jevons Paradox) and Problem Shifting25:30 Technology Driven by Profit vs. Social and Ecological Needs38:50 Manufacturing Inevitability: An Analysis of 100 Deep Sea Mining Research Papers49:40 Framing the Narrative: Mineral Demand as an “Unquestionable Reality”52:28 The Role of Academia: Legitimizing Exploitation via Research Funding63:14 Common Sense vs. Idealism: Reclaiming Durability and Repair Culture65:31 Closing: Shifting the Focus from Exploitation to Systemic Change Resources Mentioned * How Growthism Made Deep-Sea Mining Possible (Preprint): https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4912470 * Kate Raworth on Donut Economics: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhcrbcg8HBw * “Puriverse: A post-development Dictionary” book: https://radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Pluriverse-full-printable-version-July-2019.pdf * The Barcelona School of Ecological Economics and Political Ecology (this is a book with a good overview to the research group´s work): https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-22566-6 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com

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  4. #33 Craig Shesky on The Metals Company’s Financial Case for Deep Sea Mining

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    #33 Craig Shesky on The Metals Company’s Financial Case for Deep Sea Mining

    I speak with Craig Shesky, Chief Financial Officer of The Metals Company. Craig walks me through the financial and regulatory architecture behind TMC’s plans: what a pre-feasibility study actually means, what SEC reporting requires, and why the company is pursuing a U.S. regulatory pathway. This episode is about the mechanics — and the scrutiny — of trying to move a controversial resource project toward commercial reality. Note that this episode was recorded on Feb 2, 2026. We discuss: * What it means to be SEC-regulated — and why TMC believes public-market scrutiny strengthens its case * The US path via DSHMRA and NOAA, and whether a future U.S. administration could reverse course * What a Pre-Feasibility Study (PFS) is — and what it is not * Ramp-up plans: one vessel → four vessels * Processing strategy: Japan (Pacific Metals), possible Indonesia processing, potential U.S. refining * The manganese question, Nickel-equivalent grade, and multi-metal economics Referenced materials TMC Pre-Feasibility Study and Initial Assessment - https://investors.metals.co/news-releases/news-release-details/tmc-releases-two-economic-studies-combined-npv-236b-and-declares Benchmark Mineral Intelligence Life Cycle Assessment (2023) - https://metals.co/bmi-lca-report/ Deep Seabed Hard Mineral Resources Act (DSHMRA)NOAA overview: https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/deep-seabed-mining Timestamps 00:00 Introduction to Deep Sea Mining and TMC04:36 Craig’s Journey to TMC10:21 Navigating Controversies16:15 Understanding SEC Regulations and Compliance19:25 Collaboration vs Competition in the Industry25:29 Regulatory Challenges and the American Regulatory Pathway48:48 Understanding the Pre-Feasibility Study55:33 TMC’s Operational Plan for Nodule Collection01:01:59 Future Processing Plans and Market Dynamics01:04:26 Trade-offs in Deep Sea Mining01:16:07 Scrutiny and Public Perception01:22:11 The Future of Deep Sea Mining This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com

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  5. #32 Idealism and Pragmatism: Moving Stepwise into the Abyss with Andrew Thaler

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    #32 Idealism and Pragmatism: Moving Stepwise into the Abyss with Andrew Thaler

    In this episode, Andrew Thaler — deep-sea ecologist, conservation technologist, and recent witness before the U.S. House Natural Resources Committee — lays out a position that resists the normal pro/anti DSM categorization. Drawing on nearly two decades of work across industry, NGOs, and policy forums, Andrew argues that impacts to the abyssal plain should be treated as effectively permanent and that this should frame the path forward around prioritizing resiliency of the ecosystems should mining occur. That assumption, he suggests, should shape the design of protected areas, monitoring systems, and regulatory triggers from the outset. The conversation covered several underexplored issues: * Why hydrothermal vents and polymetallic nodules present fundamentally different governance questions * The “discovery problem” — how new ecosystem discoveries mid-operation could challenge adaptive management * Why substitution arguments with terrestrial mining are often overstated * Structural critiques of the ISA’s unitary mining code * The geopolitical and market risks of unilateral U.S. action under DSHMRA Thaler describes himself as both an idealist and a pragmatist. Mining may happen, he suggests — but if it does, it should proceed stepwise, cautiously, and under a framework that assumes permanence rather than recovery. Follow Andrew LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-thaler-293a9220/Bluesky: @drandrewthaler.bsky.social Blackbeard Biologic: https://blackbeardbiologic.com/ Chapters 00:00 Welcome and Introduction to Andrew Thaler02:10 From Marine Ecology to Policy Arenas07:55 Working Between Sectors12:40 The Governance Challenge of the Global Commons18:05 Risk, Uncertainty, and Abyssal Ecosystems24:38 Stability Over Centuries to Millennia30:50 Political Timelines vs. Geological Reality36:45 Industry, NGOs, and Diverging Incentives41:22 Irreversibility and Long-Term Consequences46:30 Scientific Evidence and Policy Interpretation52:15 Congressional Testimony and Public Framing58:40 What Responsible Governance Would Require63:10 Closing Reflections: Managing Risk Beyond Our Lifetimes Resources Mentioned Statement to U.S. House Natural Resources Committee - https://www.southernfriedscience.com/the-urgency-does-not-exist-my-statement-on-deep-sea-mining-to-the-subcommittee-on-energy-and-mineral-resources/ Publications & Media Deep Sea Mining Observer (archived) https://dsmobserver.com/Southern Fried Science: https://www.southernfriedscience.com Technical & Scientific Tools OpenCTD (open-source oceanographic instrument project)NOAA ocean exploration: https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com

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  6. #31: State Consent and the Deep Sea: Nathan Eastwood on Law, Legitimacy, and the Limits of UNCLOS

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    #31: State Consent and the Deep Sea: Nathan Eastwood on Law, Legitimacy, and the Limits of UNCLOS

    In this episode of the Elements of Deep Sea Mining podcast, Nathan Eastwood, a partner at Watson Farley Williams, shares his extensive knowledge on international law and deep sea mining. He discusses the legal framework surrounding seabed mining, the challenges faced by the International Seabed Authority in adopting exploitation regulations, and the implications of U.S. regulations under the Deep Seabed Hard Mineral Resources Act. The conversation highlights the importance of bilateral investment treaties, environmental considerations, and the need for international cooperation in navigating the complexities of deep sea mining. Eastwood also explores potential best and worst case scenarios for the future of seabed mining and the role of multilateralism in addressing global challenges. Follow Nathan LinkedIn: Nathan EastwoodFirm profile & contact: Watson Farley & Williams Chapters 00:00 – Introduction: Nathan Eastwood02:00 – From Mining Disputes to the International Seabed Authority07:45 – Are There Secret Seabed Legal Battles?12:30 – Why International Law Matters for Companies18:40 – What the U.S. Is Actually Doing23:50 – Is DSHMRA a “Wild West” System?29:30 – Consolidated Applications Explained35:15 – The Existential Question for the ISA40:10 – Is It Legal? Treaty Law, Custom, and Jus Cogens48:20 – The Persistent Objector Doctrine52:40 – Where Are the Legal Teeth?58:30 – Could the ISA Challenge the U.S.?1:05:10 – Articles 137 & 139: Supplier Liability Debate1:12:30 – ISA Investigations and Due Process1:18:40 – Could Contracts Be Terminated?1:23:20 – Best-Case and Worst-Case Futures1:29:10 – Cooperation, China, and Regulatory Breakdown1:34:50 – The Culture of the Deep-Sea Mining Debate1:39:10 – Where to Learn More & Closing Further Reading Watson Farley Williams articles on Seabed Mining: Mining the Deep Sea: How the US is Unlocking the Ocean’s Critical Minerals https://www.wfw.com/articles/mining-the-deep-sea-how-the-us-is-unlocking-the-oceans-critical-minerals/ US regulatory framework US statement in relation to their obligations under part 11 of the convention This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com

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  7. #30: News Roundup No.3

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    #30: News Roundup No.3

    Check out full notes and linkes to articles referenced at Elyse’s Substack: If you don’t know all of the names and terms well, this glossary may be helpful. Plus, follow along with the show notes and links below. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com

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    #29: Seeing Below the Surface: How Deep-Ocean Exploration Works with Anna Lim

    Geophysicist Dr. Anna Lim has spent the past several years turning the invisible into the intelligible—designing and leading deep-ocean exploration campaigns that map and model what lies four kilometres beneath the sea surface.Formerly Manager & Discipline Lead for Marine Minerals and Deep-Ocean Space Exploration at Argeo, Anna joins Eric to unpack what “exploration” really means: how you plan a cruise, what counts as good data, and why trade-offs between coverage, resolution, and time define everything that follows. The conversation moves from the technical to the philosophical—bias in discovery, uncertainty, and the quiet role of trust in every data pipeline. It’s a rare inside look at how the knowledge base is actually built. Follow Anna on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/limannageo/?originalSubdomain=no 🧭 Topics Covered * How exploration campaigns are planned and executed * The difference between good data and misleading data * Trade-offs: coverage vs. resolution, cost vs. information value * Survivorship bias in scientific discovery (“we only find what we look for”) * Data interpretation and the human element in modelling * Why “trust” and transparency matter even at the technical level Chapters 00:00 Intro03:23 Anna Lim’s Journey to Geophysics05:08 The Role of Multidisciplinarity in Research07:33 Research Focus on Hydrothermal Systems09:46 Exploration Campaigns: Planning and Execution12:31 Data Collection Techniques in Deep Sea Exploration15:30 Challenges in Identifying Mineral Deposits18:17 The Importance of Context in Geophysical Research20:41 Trade-offs in Data Collection23:22 The Data Pipeline: From Collection to Analysis26:06 Identifying Zones of Interest in Deep Sea Exploration36:35 Understanding Sampling Bias in Geological Surveys40:00 The Importance of Data Processing and Calibration44:44 Interpreting Data: The Role of Assumptions48:33 Navigating Time and Budget Constraints in Exploration55:14 Trade-offs in Decision Making for Deep Sea Exploration01:01:54 Post-Exploration: Reporting and Next Steps01:08:45 Technological Advancements in Deep Sea ExplorationTheme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com

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Details and Dialogue Matter tradingoff.substack.com

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    Eric Young
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    The Elements of Deep Sea Mining

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