The Ethically Immoral Podcast

Hosted by: Mike Payne
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The Ethically Immoral Podcast is a program dedicated to long-form conversations with poets, spoken word artists, authors, and creatives who use language as a tool for truth-telling, healing, and resistance. Hosted by Mike Payne, the show travels beyond the typical interview to explore the personal histories, artistic philosophies, and cultural contexts that shape the voice of the Creatives we welcome.   It’s not just about poetry or performance — it’s about the people behind the pen. We talk about identity, healing, joy, frustration, and the journey of becoming. Some moments are deep, others are funny, but all of them are authentic. If you’re someone who values storytelling, vulnerability, and good conversation, this space was created and cultivated for you.  

  1. Volume Seven: Chapter Two - Our Conversation with Stephanie Bolster

    MAR 31

    Volume Seven: Chapter Two - Our Conversation with Stephanie Bolster

    In Volume Seven: Chapter Two of the podcast, we welcomed Vancouver-born, Quebec-based  Educator, Writer, Poet, and Author of the poetry collection Long Exposure, Stephanie Bolster.   Stephanie is Professor of Creative Writing at Concordia University, earned her BFA and MFA from the University of British Columbia, and is the author of five poetry collections.  In our conversation we discuss her creative beginnings—starting with early storytelling, a childhood desire to become an author, and the writers who helped define her path. She speaks on discovering poetry through Emily Dickinson, and later finding something deeper and more urgent in the work of Sylvia Plath—an influence that helped shift poetry from something she enjoyed to something she needed.  We also spend time unpacking identity—what it meant to call herself a poet early on, before expectations and career entered the picture, and how that relationship to the word “poet” has evolved over time. That idea opens into a broader conversation about imagination, the role poetry plays in making sense of the world, and whether those two instincts—creation and understanding—work together or pull in different directions. We discuss Long Exposure, a project more than a decade in the making, and what it means to finally bring that work into the world. Stephanie reflects on her relationship with the collection, the time it took to come together, and how living with a manuscript for that long shapes both the work and the writer behind it.   We close on process and balance: her writing routine, the importance of physical space and environment, and the ongoing challenge of making room for writing within the realities of teaching, family, and life. It’s a transparent look at the tension between knowing writing is essential and still having to negotiate time for it.  Contact Stephanie: Website: stephaniebolster.com          Instagram: @stephaniebolster0110       Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Shanelle Gabriel – Vanity Instagram: @shanellegabriel         Website: shanellegabriel.com  Matt Capone – Learned with Love Instagram: @matt__capone  Gigi Bella – Slut Instagram: @ggbellag        Website: gigibellapoetry.com  Anyrah Shaveh – We Must Not Die Young Instagram: @iamshaveh       Website: anyrahshaveh.com Moody Black – Eight Letters Instagram: @iammoodyblack        Website: iammoodyblack.com     Support the show

    2h 12m
  2. Volume Seven - Chapter One - Our Conversation with Ebony Stewart

    MAR 23

    Volume Seven - Chapter One - Our Conversation with Ebony Stewart

    In Volume Seven: Chapter One of the Program, we welcome Houston, Texas–born and based Educator, Playwright, Actress, Writer, Author, and Performance Poet Ebony Stewart. She is the 2017 Woman of the World Slam Champion, a three-time Austin Neo Soul Slam Champion, a B. Iden Payne Award recipient, and the David Mark Cohen New Play Award winner. She is also the author of four books, including her latest poetry collection Wash, which was recently named an Honors Award winner by the Texas Institute of Letters.   In our conversation, Ebony reflects on what that recognition for Wash actually means—not just as an acknowledgment of the work itself, but as an outside validation of her writing acumen. We talk about the evolution of her voice, the version of herself that shows up in this collection, and how periods of creative difficulty—graduate school where writing poetry became difficult—shaped the way she approaches the page now.   We also spend time sitting with something a lot of artists tend to move past too quickly: accomplishment. With a résumé as extensive as hers, Ebony discusses how often she truly pauses to take it in. Ebony opens up about the leap into becoming a full-time creative—what it looked like before that transition, the grind of balancing teaching with constant travel and performance, and the moment she decided to bet on herself. From there, we get into confidence: what it’s made of, how authenticity, self-awareness, and emotional honesty factor into it, and how she’s learned to carry heavy things like grief without letting them define every room she walks into.  Contact Ebony: Website: ebpoetry.com          Instagram: @gullyprincess        Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Nayo Jones – We Will Not Ask Instagram: @nayojones          Website: nayojones.com Jay Ward – Gentrification Instagram: @jayward2030 Alysia Harris – Controlled Burn Instagram: @poppyinthewheat         Website: alysiaharris.com  Ebony Stewart: How We Forget (After Loyce Gayo) Ebony Stewart: Single Support the show

    1h 35m
  3. Volume Six: Chapter Twenty - Our Conversation with Kathryn MacDonald

    MAR 16

    Volume Six: Chapter Twenty - Our Conversation with Kathryn MacDonald

    In Volume Six: Chapter Twenty of the Program, we welcome Ontario-based Educator, Writer, Painter, Photographer, Author, and Poet Kathryn MacDonald. Our conversation explores the many ways creativity can intersect—through poetry, visual art, travel, and teaching—and how each discipline shapes the way an artist observes and responds to the world.  Kathryn discusses her reputation as an ekphrastic writer, explaining how her poetry often emerges from an emotional dialogue with visual art and the details she encounters in everyday life. We talk about the role observation plays in her work, her writing process, and how reading and creative community continue to shape her development as a writer.  We also explore her experiences as a sailor and traveler, how those journeys have influenced her imagination, and the relationship between her poetry, painting, and photography.  The conversation concludes with a discussion of her forthcoming poetry collection, The Blue Gate, a lyrical exploration of love, grief, and the shifting emotional landscapes that follow loss.  Contact Kathryn: Website: kathrynmacdonald.com         Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Jae Nichelle – Brown Skin Girl Instagram: @croptopassassin          Website: jaenichelle.com  Emi Mahmoud – Window Games Instagram: @emibattuta          Website: emi-mahmoud.com  Crystal Valentine – I am Black before Woman in February Instagram: @crystalvalentine94          Website: iamcrystalvalentine.com Natasha Ria: Shine Website: natasharia.com        Instagram: @natasharia Javon Johnson: Building Instagram: @javonism Support the show

    1h 54m
  4. Volume Six: Chapter Nineteen - Our Conversation with Maria Giesbrecht

    MAR 8

    Volume Six: Chapter Nineteen - Our Conversation with Maria Giesbrecht

    In Volume Six: Chapter Nineteen of the Program, we welcome Durango, Mexico-born, Toronto-based Poet, Author, Curator, and Writer Maria Giesbrecht. She is a graduate of the post-graduate Creative Writing program at Humber College and the winner of the Jack McCarthy Book Prize and the Lesley Strutt Poetry Prize. Her work has also been recognized as a finalist for the Narrative Poetry Prize, a Best of Net nominee, and the runner-up for the Eden Mills Poetry Contest.  She is the author of the poetry collection Peeling Oranges, and her forthcoming collection A Little Feral is scheduled for release May 8 and is currently available for pre-order.  In our conversation, Maria and I talk about how her love of language began early—reading a Nancy Drew book nightly as a kid—and how poetry first entered her life in eighth grade through a science teacher who introduced her to spoken word and rap. We explore how writing became both refuge and release during difficult years growing up, and how persona poems help her navigate creative blocks. Maria also reflects on her religious upbringing and the complicated relationship she has had with faith, doubt, obedience, and questioning—and how writing has helped her process that evolving spiritual conversation.  We discuss the early-morning creative state she relies on for drafting poems, and the turning point when she left a career in corporate accounting to pursue writing full-time.  Finally, we talk about her writing community Gather, the role it plays in supporting other writers, and the ideas behind both of her poetry collections. Contact Maria: Instagram: @theguelphpoet        Website: mariagiesbrecht.com Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Marie Foolchand – I am the People, the Mob Instagram: @laframbuessa Dua Saleh – Fractions Instagram: @doitlikedua          Website: duasaleh.com Gabriel Ramiez – On Realizing Im Black Instagram: @poetramirez          Website: ramirezpoet.com  Andrea Gibson: Nutritionist Website: andreagibson.org        Instagram: @andreagibson Dani Cook: Recess Instagram: @thedanicook        Website: thisisdani.com Support the show

    1h 37m
  5. Volume Six: Chapter Eighteen - Our Conversation with David Martin

    FEB 23

    Volume Six: Chapter Eighteen - Our Conversation with David Martin

    In Volume Six: Chapter Eighteen we welcome Educator, Poet, Writer and Author David Martin. He earned his BA in English from the University of Calgary and his MA in English from the University of Alberta. His work has been widely recognized across Canada’s literary landscape — including winning the CBC Poetry Prize, receiving the Silver Award for Poetry from the Alberta Magazine Awards, and being shortlisted for the W.O. Mitchell Book Prize, the Banff Mountain Book Competition, and FreeFall Magazine’s poetry contest.  He is the author of two chapbooks and four full-length poetry collections, including his recently released book Night Stead.  In addition to his poetry, he is the frontman and primary songwriter for the multi-genre band The Fragments, whose eight-album catalog spans indie-pop, alternative, jazz-inspired textures, and most recently, country.  In our conversation, we explore the intersection of music and poetry — whether songwriting and verse come from the same creative space, and how genre shifts function in his artistic evolution.  We trace his creative history back to a pivotal, life-changing poetry reading by multidisciplinary artist Kirk Miles — a moment that reframed how he understood poetry and ultimately led to his involvement with Calgary’s long-running Single Onion Poetry Series, where he now serves as an organizer.  We also talk about his obsession with sound, his process of recording and listening back to drafts, and how grief — particularly the loss of his brother — reshaped both his writing practice and the emotional architecture of his work.  Finally, we dive into Night Stead — a formally inventive and deeply personal collection that challenges conventional reading structures while exploring vulnerability, memory, and interior life.  This is a conversation about discipline and experimentation, silence and return, structure and sound — and what it means to build a creative life across multiple mediums.  Contact David: Instagram: @david_jamesmartin        Website: davidjamesmartyin.ca  Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Alyssa Michelle – The Mis-Education of the Introvert Instagram: @poetress_michelle         TikTok: @poetress_michelle Khalil Saadiq – Somebody's Watching Me Instagram: @khalil_saadiq Shawn William – Tired Instagram: @iamshawnwilliam Kelsey Bigelow: A Grandfathers Hands Instagram: @kelkaypoetry          Website: kelkaypoetry.com Anna Maria Morris: A Love Poem for Myself Instagram: @annamariamorris        Website: annamariamorris.com Support the show

    1h 47m
  6. Volume Six: Chapter Seventeen - Our Conversation with Kestral Gaian

    FEB 2

    Volume Six: Chapter Seventeen - Our Conversation with Kestral Gaian

    Our guest this week is a Scotland, United Kingdom–based writer, poet, playwright, and author. Kestral Gaian, who is the author of four books, including their most recent poetry collection, Tubelines: The Poetry of Motion, available now via their website and wherever books are sold.  In our conversation, we trace Kestral’s parallel paths through creativity and technology — including a lengthy career in software and tech — and how those two worlds increasingly collide. That collision leads us into a thoughtful discussion of artificial intelligence, creative labor, and authorship, sparked by Kestral’s project justsayno.ai. We talk candidly about over-reliance on AI, creative disruption, and the growing concern that AI may help people produce writing without necessarily helping them become writers.  From there, we move into Kestral’s creative history: starting to write at the age of five, transitioning from storytelling into poetry, and grappling early on with questions of identity and representation. Growing up under the shadow of the UK’s Section 28 — legislation that erased queer stories from schools and libraries — profoundly shaped what felt possible to write. We talk about silence, visibility, and the long-term effects of being told certain stories shouldn’t exist.  The conversation then turns to Tubelines, a poetry collection written over five years and inspired by fifty encounters on the London Underground. We talk about people-watching, movement, routine, and the quiet humanity that reveals itself in shared spaces. Contact Kestral: Instagram: @kes.tr.al        Website: kestr.al  Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Toni Payne – Let the Headline Scream Instagram: @tonipaynequotes          Website: tonipayneonline.com  Meccamorphosis – Thrift Shop Instagram: @meccamorphosis          Website: meccamorphosis.com Asia Samson – As I Am Instagram: @theasiaproject       Website: theasiaproject.com Christopher Diaz: Again Instagram: @lightbulbchris          Website: christopherdiazcreates.com  Matthew Cuban: Shotgun Instagram: @matthewcuban         Website: matthewcuban.com   Support the show

    1h 55m
  7. Volume Six: Chapter Sixteen - Our Conversation with Leslie Saint Julien

    JAN 19

    Volume Six: Chapter Sixteen - Our Conversation with Leslie Saint Julien

    In Volume Six: Chapter Sixteen of The Program, we welcome Poet, Actor, Producer, Playwright, and Author of the new book Hair Me, Leslie Saint Julien. Making her third appearance on the podcast, Leslie returns to discuss the evolution of her personal and powerful stage project Hair Me: A Journey Through the Rich Tapestry of Black Hair and the book of the same name.  In this wide-ranging and honest conversation, Leslie shares how 2025 became a transformative year after a period of burnout and creative exhaustion, and what she’s learned about rest, resilience, and intention. We explore her journey from writing an award-winning poem to developing it into a one-woman stage play, complete with a companion book, script, and educational study guide designed for classrooms.  She opens up about the pressures Black women face when it comes to hair — not just in terms of aesthetics, but as a matter of survival, self-expression, and social perception. We dig into the emotional and cultural weight of “code-switching” one’s hairstyle, the complexity of navigating critique, and the behind-the-scenes work required to bring a theatrical vision to life.  Leslie is also the author of Brooklyn Stew and three poetry collections. A graduate of the University of Maryland with a degree in Criminology and Criminal Justice, she later studied acting at the New York Film Academy.  Contact Leslie: Instagram: @lesliesainjulien        Website: lesliesaintjulien.com  Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Destiny Birdsong – Killing White Instagram: @bird_songoftheyear          Website: destintbirdsong.com  Destiny Birdsong – Mythicona Instagram: @bird_songoftheyear          Website: destinybirdsong.com  Ray Jane – Spoils Instagram: @itsrayjane          Website: itsrayjane.com  Summer Durant: Same Instagram: @summeraen  Ghetto Jedi the Poet: Strap Up  Support the show

    2h 16m
  8. Volume Six: Chapter Fifteen - Our Conversation with Barbara Fant

    JAN 5

    Volume Six: Chapter Fifteen - Our Conversation with Barbara Fant

    In Volume Six: Chapter Fifteen of The Program, we welcome Educator, Community Activist, Poet, Performance Poet, and Author Barbara Fant, who is making her third appearance on the podcast.  Born in Youngstown, Ohio and now based in Los Angeles, Barbara is the author of three poetry collections Paint, Inside Out, Mouths of Garden, and her newest collection, Joy in the Belly of a Riot. For over a decade, she has led poetry workshops for incarcerated youth and adults, people in recovery, and survivors of human trafficking and domestic violence.  In this conversation, we talk about the journey of releasing a new book, returning home for her Ohio book launch, and the creative relationships that have shaped her path — including long-standing friendships formed through performance poetry and slam.  Barbara also shares what it means to be named a Recording Academy 2025 New Member, becoming a voting member for the Grammys, and how poetry, music, and performance continue to intersect in her life.  We dive into her slam and performance history, finding joy on the other side of trauma, and how Joy in the Belly of a Riot helped her arrive at a clearer understanding of who she is — fully embracing faith, poetry, and purpose without compartmentalizing any part of herself.  A thoughtful, honest, and wide-ranging conversation about art, healing, joy, and becoming.  Contact Barbara: Instagram: @iambarbarafant         Website: barbarafant.com Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Sunshine Lombre – Daydream Instagram: @ladylombre  Tonya Ingram – Monster Instagram: @tonyainstagram  Theresa Davis – Why I Do This Instagram: @shepiratepoet          Website: artisttheresadavis.com Barbara Fant: Brown Bodies Bending Instagram: @iambarbarafant          Website: barbarafant.com Barbara Fant: Medicine Instagram: @iambarbarafant          Website: barbarafant.com Support the show

    2 hr
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About

The Ethically Immoral Podcast is a program dedicated to long-form conversations with poets, spoken word artists, authors, and creatives who use language as a tool for truth-telling, healing, and resistance. Hosted by Mike Payne, the show travels beyond the typical interview to explore the personal histories, artistic philosophies, and cultural contexts that shape the voice of the Creatives we welcome.   It’s not just about poetry or performance — it’s about the people behind the pen. We talk about identity, healing, joy, frustration, and the journey of becoming. Some moments are deep, others are funny, but all of them are authentic. If you’re someone who values storytelling, vulnerability, and good conversation, this space was created and cultivated for you.  

Information

  • Creator
    Hosted by: Mike Payne
  • Years Active
    2020 - 2026
  • Episodes
    127
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 The Ethically Immoral Podcast
  • Show Website
    The Ethically Immoral Podcast