The Ethically Immoral Podcast

Hosted by: Mike Payne
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The Ethically Immoral Podcast is a program dedicated to long-form conversations with poets, spoken word artists, authors, and creatives who use language as a tool for truth-telling, healing, and resistance. Hosted by Mike Payne, the show travels beyond the typical interview to explore the personal histories, artistic philosophies, and cultural contexts that shape the voice of the Creatives we welcome.   It’s not just about poetry or performance — it’s about the people behind the pen. We talk about identity, healing, joy, frustration, and the journey of becoming. Some moments are deep, others are funny, but all of them are authentic. If you’re someone who values storytelling, vulnerability, and good conversation, this space was created and cultivated for you.  

  1. Volume Six: Chapter Seventeen - Our Conversation with Kestral Gaian

    FEB 2

    Volume Six: Chapter Seventeen - Our Conversation with Kestral Gaian

    Our guest this week is a Scotland, United Kingdom–based writer, poet, playwright, and author. Kestral Gaian, who is the author of four books, including their most recent poetry collection, Tubelines: The Poetry of Motion, available now via their website and wherever books are sold.  In our conversation, we trace Kestral’s parallel paths through creativity and technology — including a lengthy career in software and tech — and how those two worlds increasingly collide. That collision leads us into a thoughtful discussion of artificial intelligence, creative labor, and authorship, sparked by Kestral’s project justsayno.ai. We talk candidly about over-reliance on AI, creative disruption, and the growing concern that AI may help people produce writing without necessarily helping them become writers.  From there, we move into Kestral’s creative history: starting to write at the age of five, transitioning from storytelling into poetry, and grappling early on with questions of identity and representation. Growing up under the shadow of the UK’s Section 28 — legislation that erased queer stories from schools and libraries — profoundly shaped what felt possible to write. We talk about silence, visibility, and the long-term effects of being told certain stories shouldn’t exist.  The conversation then turns to Tubelines, a poetry collection written over five years and inspired by fifty encounters on the London Underground. We talk about people-watching, movement, routine, and the quiet humanity that reveals itself in shared spaces. Contact Kestral: Instagram: @kes.tr.al        Website: kestr.al  Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Toni Payne – Let the Headline Scream Instagram: @tonipaynequotes          Website: tonipayneonline.com  Meccamorphosis – Thrift Shop Instagram: @meccamorphosis          Website: meccamorphosis.com Asia Samson – As I Am Instagram: @theasiaproject       Website: theasiaproject.com Christopher Diaz: Again Instagram: @lightbulbchris          Website: christopherdiazcreates.com  Matthew Cuban: Shotgun Instagram: @matthewcuban         Website: matthewcuban.com   Support the show

    1h 55m
  2. Volume Six: Chapter Sixteen - Our Conversation with Leslie Saint Julien

    JAN 19

    Volume Six: Chapter Sixteen - Our Conversation with Leslie Saint Julien

    In Volume Six: Chapter Sixteen of The Program, we welcome Poet, Actor, Producer, Playwright, and Author of the new book Hair Me, Leslie Saint Julien. Making her third appearance on the podcast, Leslie returns to discuss the evolution of her personal and powerful stage project Hair Me: A Journey Through the Rich Tapestry of Black Hair and the book of the same name.  In this wide-ranging and honest conversation, Leslie shares how 2025 became a transformative year after a period of burnout and creative exhaustion, and what she’s learned about rest, resilience, and intention. We explore her journey from writing an award-winning poem to developing it into a one-woman stage play, complete with a companion book, script, and educational study guide designed for classrooms.  She opens up about the pressures Black women face when it comes to hair — not just in terms of aesthetics, but as a matter of survival, self-expression, and social perception. We dig into the emotional and cultural weight of “code-switching” one’s hairstyle, the complexity of navigating critique, and the behind-the-scenes work required to bring a theatrical vision to life.  Leslie is also the author of Brooklyn Stew and three poetry collections. A graduate of the University of Maryland with a degree in Criminology and Criminal Justice, she later studied acting at the New York Film Academy.  Contact Leslie: Instagram: @lesliesainjulien        Website: lesliesaintjulien.com  Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Destiny Birdsong – Killing White Instagram: @bird_songoftheyear          Website: destintbirdsong.com  Destiny Birdsong – Mythicona Instagram: @bird_songoftheyear          Website: destinybirdsong.com  Ray Jane – Spoils Instagram: @itsrayjane          Website: itsrayjane.com  Summer Durant: Same Instagram: @summeraen  Ghetto Jedi the Poet: Strap Up  Support the show

    2h 16m
  3. Volume Six: Chapter Fifteen - Our Conversation with Barbara Fant

    JAN 5

    Volume Six: Chapter Fifteen - Our Conversation with Barbara Fant

    In Volume Six: Chapter Fifteen of The Program, we welcome Educator, Community Activist, Poet, Performance Poet, and Author Barbara Fant, who is making her third appearance on the podcast.  Born in Youngstown, Ohio and now based in Los Angeles, Barbara is the author of three poetry collections Paint, Inside Out, Mouths of Garden, and her newest collection, Joy in the Belly of a Riot. For over a decade, she has led poetry workshops for incarcerated youth and adults, people in recovery, and survivors of human trafficking and domestic violence.  In this conversation, we talk about the journey of releasing a new book, returning home for her Ohio book launch, and the creative relationships that have shaped her path — including long-standing friendships formed through performance poetry and slam.  Barbara also shares what it means to be named a Recording Academy 2025 New Member, becoming a voting member for the Grammys, and how poetry, music, and performance continue to intersect in her life.  We dive into her slam and performance history, finding joy on the other side of trauma, and how Joy in the Belly of a Riot helped her arrive at a clearer understanding of who she is — fully embracing faith, poetry, and purpose without compartmentalizing any part of herself.  A thoughtful, honest, and wide-ranging conversation about art, healing, joy, and becoming.  Contact Barbara: Instagram: @iambarbarafant         Website: barbarafant.com Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Sunshine Lombre – Daydream Instagram: @ladylombre  Tonya Ingram – Monster Instagram: @tonyainstagram  Theresa Davis – Why I Do This Instagram: @shepiratepoet          Website: artisttheresadavis.com Barbara Fant: Brown Bodies Bending Instagram: @iambarbarafant          Website: barbarafant.com Barbara Fant: Medicine Instagram: @iambarbarafant          Website: barbarafant.com Support the show

    2 hr
  4. Volume Six: Chapter Fourteen - Our Conversation with Candace Green

    12/15/2025

    Volume Six: Chapter Fourteen - Our Conversation with Candace Green

    In Volume Six: Chapter Fourteen of The Program, we welcome Candace Marquez Green, a Chicago-born and Chicago-based community activist, entrepreneur, writer, poet, and author of the new poetry collection, "In Glimpses and Reminisces". Candace holds a Bachelor’s degree in Entertainment Business, a Master of Arts in Public Relations, and a Master of Business Administration. She is the recipient of the 2022 Chicago Defender Woman of Excellence Award, was named one of Crain’s Chicago Business and Black Women’s Professional League 40 Under 40, and currently serves on the board of the Chicago Poetry Center, a nonprofit dedicated to expanding access to poetry across diverse communities throughout Chicago.  Our conversation explores the many layers of Candace’s creative identity, beginning with her long history in pageantry. She reflects on what pageantry taught her about discipline, confidence, access, and leadership, while also addressing the more complicated narratives often associated with the pageant world. From there, we transition into her creative history and examine the parallels between pageantry and poetry — performance and vulnerability, composure and truth — and how those worlds have shaped, rather than contradicted, one another. Candace speaks openly about growing up on Chicago’s South Side, witnessing addiction, loss, and trauma within her family, and how writing became her earliest and most honest form of self-expression through journaling and poetry. The conversation then turns to her newest poetry collection, a deeply personal work shaped by love, grief, resilience, and self-discovery. Candace shares the significance of writing much of the book during an intense creative period, and she also discusses the experience of self-publishing the collection and the pride she feels in releasing a book rooted in lived truth rather than polished performance. This episode is a thoughtful conversation about identity, growth, and the long journey from learning how to be seen to learning how to speak — honestly and on one’s own terms. Contact Candace: Instagram: @chosenpoetic         Website: candacegreen.net Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Porsha O – Trigger Instagram: @iamporsheolayiwola          Website: porshaolayiwola William Evans – For My Wife Who Fell In Love With A Ship Buried At Sea Instagram: @williamevanswrites          Website: williamthe3rd.com Ephriam Nehemiah – Inheritance of a Broken Home Instagram: @ephriamnehemiah Alyesha Wise: Untitled: To Black Women Instagram: @alyeshawise          Website: alyeshawise.com     Kenneth Something: Rape Poem Instagram: @saysomethingpoet Support the show

    1h 20m
  5. Volume Six: Chapter Thirteen - Our Conversation with Sadiqa de Meijer

    11/24/2025

    Volume Six: Chapter Thirteen - Our Conversation with Sadiqa de Meijer

    In Volume Six: Chapter Thirteen we welcome Amsterdam-born, Kingston Ontario-based Writer, Poet, Author, and Essayist Sadiqa de Meijer. She is the author of two acclaimed poetry collections — Leaving Howe Island, finalist for both the Governor General’s Award for English-language Poetry and the Pat Lowther Memorial Award, and The Outer Wards, a finalist for the Raymond Souster Award. She is also the author of two nonfiction collections: the Governor General’s Award–winning alfabet / alphabet: A Memoir of a First Language, and her newest book, In the Field, now available from Palimpsest Press. Sadiqa is also the current Poet Laureate for Kingston, Ontario. This is her first appearance on the program.  In our conversation, Sadiqa traces her creative history back to childhood — from immigrating from the Netherlands to Canada at age twelve,  and how those early linguistic and cultural shifts shaped both her worldview and her writing. She reflects on experiencing marginalization as a person of color in Dutch society, the challenges of immigration, and the humility and attentiveness those experiences instilled in her as an artist.  We talk about the deep imaginative life she had as a child: disappearing into books, being surrounded by storytelling, and how the desire to transform the private experience of reading into “conversation” was her earliest pull toward writing. She discusses discovering poetry in elementary school, becoming more intentional about her craft in high school and university, and the moment writing shifted from something she loved to something that felt essential — a part of her identity.  We go deep into her award-winning nonfiction book alfabet / alphabet, where she examines losing — and later reclaiming — her mother tongue, Dutch. Sadiqa discusses how language shapes memory, how certain emotions exist differently in different languages, and why writing this book was personally necessary. She also speaks about the difference between the inward resonance she privileges in poetry and the slightly more outward-facing awareness she brings to her essays.  Contact Sadiqa: Instagram: @sadiqademeijer          Website: sadiqademeijer.com Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Jasmine Mans – You Gon' Get This Work Instagram: @poetjasminemans          Website: jasminemans.com Bianca Phipps – Born To Embody It Instagram: @biancaphipps Lady Brion – I Talk Black Instagram: @ladybspeaks          Website: ladybrion.com Javon Johnson – The Shotgun Instagram: @javonism     Rudy Francisco – Honesty Instagram: @rudyfrancisco          Website: iamrudyfrancisco Support the show

    1h 52m
  6. Volume Six: Chapter Twelve - Our Conversation with Melissa Powless Day

    11/17/2025

    Volume Six: Chapter Twelve - Our Conversation with Melissa Powless Day

    In Volume Six: Chapter Twelve of the Program, we welcome Melissa Powless Day — a London, Ontario–based educator, writer, poet, and author. She serves as Chair for Western University’s Indigenous Writers Circle, is a Visiting Cultural Teacher for the London District Catholic School Board, and is currently completing her PhD in Indigenous Education at Western University. A Pushcart Prize nominee, she’s the author of the 2023 chapbook Secondhand Moccasins — shortlisted for the bpNichol Chapbook Award — and her debut full-length poetry collection, A Bow Forged From Ash, released through Palimpsest Press.  In our conversation, Melissa reflects on the past few months of sharing her new collection with readers and communities across Canada, and what this season has meant for her as a creative. We discuss her reclamation journey and the importance of lineage — from the influence of her mother and grandmother, to the deeper meaning of pride in being a proud Indigenous woman. She shares how her sense of heritage began to shape her voice as a writer, the role music played in her artistic growth, and how ’90s artists like Mary J. Blige, Brandy, and Tupac Shakur helped her see parallels between Indigenous and African-American experiences through art and storytelling.  We also talk about community, identity, and transformation — from her experiences in gaming and creative technology to the deliberate and deeply personal process of creating A Bow Forged From Ash. Melissa opens up about her writing process, the emotional high of publication, and the lessons learned from navigating both the joy and the business of bringing her work into the world. Finally, she discusses the reclamation of her name, the legacy of the Sixties Scoop, and how her creative work continues to be a powerful act of rewriting, healing, and self-discovery.  Contact Melissa: Instagram: @mel_schnarr Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Ajanae Dawkins – For the Blonde Girl and the Classroom of Ghosts Instagram: @moonsatdusk          Website: ajanaedawkins.com Ephraim Nehemiah – Afrofuturistic Fairy God Being Instagram: @ephraimnehemiah Ayana Albertson – Her Rights Instagram: @untouchableyann Crystal Valentine – Black Privilege Instagram: @crystalvalentine94          Website: iamcrystalvalentine.com Matt Capone – Learned with Love Instagram: @matt__capone Support the show

    1h 58m
  7. Volume Six: Chapter Eleven - Our Conversation With Gary Barwin

    10/13/2025

    Volume Six: Chapter Eleven - Our Conversation With Gary Barwin

    In Volume Six: Chapter Eleven of The Program, we welcome a Hamilton, Ontario–based educator, writer, poet, essayist, composer, and musician Gary Barwin. With a BFA and BA from York University and a PhD in Music Composition from SUNY Buffalo, Barwin has built a career that refuses to stay in one lane. He’s the author of more than thirty books and chapbooks—including Yiddish for Pirates, winner of the 2017 Stephen Leacock Medal for Humour and the Canadian Jewish Literary Award for Fiction, and shortlisted for both the Scotiabank Giller Prize and the Governor General’s Award. His newest collaboration, Muttertongue—co-authored with Toronto Poet Laureate Lillian Allen and friend of the podcast Gregory Betts—is a bold fusion of both poetry and sound.  In our conversation, Gary and I trace the through-lines of a life shaped by movement, music, and story. We talk about his family’s journey—from Lithuania to South Africa, through Northern Ireland, and finally to Canada—and how those histories reflects through his creative work. We discuss his grandfather’s influence, the man who first took him seriously as a writer, and the way family narratives—of exile, resilience, and humor—continue to surface in his art.  We also explore Hamilton’s quiet but powerful role in his creative life, how writing and music speak the same emotional language, and why he believes creativity isn’t something that fades—it deepens. Gary discusses the leap from poetry to prose when writing Yiddish for Pirates, what that process taught him about discipline and discovery, and what it felt like to have that debut novel embraced so widely after decades of writing poetry and composing music.  Finally, we dig into Muttertongue—how the collaboration with Allen and Betts came together, what it means to work at the intersection of sound, text, and visual poetry, and how they hope audiences experience the project as both a book and an album.  Contact Gary Website: garybarwin.com          Instagram: @garybarwin Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  King Yaw – Poetry Service Instagram: @kingyaw_ Terisa Siagatonu  – Note To Self Instagram: @terisasiagatonu          Website: terisasiagatonu.com Gabrielle Smith – Black Bird Instagram: @bygabriellesmith  Nelle Divine – Dont Fall In Love With A Healer Instagram: @iamnelledivine AkeemJamaal Rollins – Suicide Note Instagram: @keemyjam Support the show

    2h 26m
  8. Volume Six: Chapter Ten - Our Conversation with Isabella DeSendi

    10/06/2025

    Volume Six: Chapter Ten - Our Conversation with Isabella DeSendi

    In Volume Six, Chapter Ten we welcomed Hoboken, New Jersey–based educator, poet, writer, and author Isabella DeSendi.  A 2024 Pushcart Prize nominee, 2024 Ruth Lilly Fellowship finalist, 2024 Best New Poets selection, and 2025 New Jersey Fellowship finalist, Isabella earned her MFA from Columbia University. Her 2020 chapbook Through the New Body won the Poetry Society of America’s Chapbook Fellowship, and her debut full-length collection Someone Else’s Hunger was released September 15th via Four Way Books.  In our conversation, Isabella talks about what it’s been like to live inside the excitement and vulnerability of releasing her first book while touring, and how she navigates the tension between Isabella the writer and Bella the person. We discuss how her understanding of voice, fear, and visibility evolved between Through the New Body and Someone Else’s Hunger, and how she has learned to “call a monster by his name” through the act of writing.  Isabella shares how her family’s stories — her mother’s, her abuela’s — shaped her voice and sense of resilience, and how iconic figures like Eve, Mary, and Medusa stand beside those familial presences in her poems. We talk about the slow, deliberate process that shapes her work, how hunger became both the literal and spiritual thread uniting her collection, and what it means to transform pain into power — to turn the very wound that could have destroyed you into a source of strength.  We also discuss anger’s rightful place in poetry and the complicated beauty of reclamation. Contact Isabella: Website: isabelladesendi.com          Instagram: @isabellamdesendi Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:  Ifrah Hussein – Tell Us Instagram: @ifrahhussein Lyrical Faith – Black Boy Joy Instagram: @lyricalfaithpoetry Masterpiece Poet – Slingshot Instagram: @masterpiecepoetry          Website: masterpiecepoetry.com Rick Dove – A Poetic Conceit Instagram: @rickdove         Website: rickdove.co.uk Lionheart– Pretty Hurts Instagram: @lionheartfelt          Website: lionheartonline.com Support the show

    1h 13m
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About

The Ethically Immoral Podcast is a program dedicated to long-form conversations with poets, spoken word artists, authors, and creatives who use language as a tool for truth-telling, healing, and resistance. Hosted by Mike Payne, the show travels beyond the typical interview to explore the personal histories, artistic philosophies, and cultural contexts that shape the voice of the Creatives we welcome.   It’s not just about poetry or performance — it’s about the people behind the pen. We talk about identity, healing, joy, frustration, and the journey of becoming. Some moments are deep, others are funny, but all of them are authentic. If you’re someone who values storytelling, vulnerability, and good conversation, this space was created and cultivated for you.  

Information

  • Creator
    Hosted by: Mike Payne
  • Years Active
    2020 - 2026
  • Episodes
    122
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 The Ethically Immoral Podcast
  • Show Website
    The Ethically Immoral Podcast