The Intangible Brand

TOKY & Cline
  • 5.0 (1)
  • Marketing

Welcome to The Intangible Brand, where we explore the connection between employee experience and client experience, and the hidden forces that make brands stick. Each episode offers practical insights and inspiration for building a brand people are proud to work for — and eager to work with. The Intangible Brand is brought to you by Cline and TOKY. Say hello@theintangiblebrand.com

  1. 4d ago

    Ep29 Why The Best Engineers Used To Hide | Brad Thurman

    Watch the video on YouTube  For decades, the unwritten rule in structural engineering was to stay invisible. Brad Thurman built a career proving that wrong. In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Julie Hammond sit down with Brad Thurman, Principal and Chief Marketing Officer at Wallace Design Collective, to talk about what happens when an engineer decides the firm's brand matters as much as its work. Brad joined the firm in 1987 as a project engineer and spent a decade in pure technical work before moving into marketing — a path that made him one of AEC's most recognized "seller-doers." He walks us through the firm's boldest move yet: dropping "engineering" from its name entirely and rebranding as Wallace Design Collective for its 40th anniversary, and why he believes human relationships will matter more, not less, as AI takes over the busywork. In this episode Why being a "seller-doer" and an engineer who can also sell, became Brad's career advantageThe story behind dropping "engineering" from the firm's name to become Wallace Design CollectiveHow "dedicated to the art of engineering" quietly became "dedicated to the art of possibility"Wallace's retention playbook: the Glee Club, a paid volunteer day, and twice-yearly "echo meetings"Why AI will make relationships more valuable in professional services, not lessWhat technical teams and marketing teams get wrong about each other and how to fix itKey Takeaways • Clients want to know who they're actually hiring before they sign on. • Being upfront about who you are, even knowing it won't be everyone's cup of tea, builds more trust than a polished, generic pitch. • Some of Brad's closest professional relationships are with his direct competitors. SMPS taught him that peer networks, even across rival firms, are a real business asset, not just networking small talk. • Marketing and technical work are a symbiotic relationship. Treat them as separate silos and you lose both talent and business. • Brad's book pick, Team of Rivals, reflects a leadership belief he still lives by: build a team with people willing to tell you no. Resource and References Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2199.Team_of_RivalsLearn more about Wallace Design Collective: https://wallace.design Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com About Brad Thurman Brad Thurman is a principal and Chief Marketing Officer of Wallace Design Collective, a professional consulting firm offering structural and civil engineering, landscape architecture, surveying and assessments. He joined Wallace in 1987 and is a licensed Professional Engineer. Since 1998, Brad has helped lead Wallace’s marketing and business development efforts across four disciplines and eight offices. He is a past president of the Oklahoma Chapter of the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS), served as the 2013-14 President on the SMPS National Board, and served as a trustee and as president of the SMPS Foundation Board of Trustees. Brad is a Certified Professional Services Marketer, was named a Fellow of SMPS in 2009, was elected to the National Academy of Construction in 2018, and was the 2025 recipient of SMPS's Weld Coxe Marketing Achievement Award. #WallaceDesignCollective #AECMarketing #aecindustry #EmployeeExperience #ClientExperience #SMPS #BrandStrategy Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

  2. Aug 12

    Ep 28 Marketing Is Not A Vending Machine | Corey Morris

    Watch this episode on YouTube Corey Morris believes marketing isn't a vending machine you shake for quick returns. It's an investment you review and grow on purpose, every single quarter. In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Corey Morris, owner and CEO of Voltage and creator of the START planning process, to explore why so many marketing reports look great and still leave a business no better off. After more than twenty years in SEO and digital marketing, Corey discovered that the real driver of long-term growth isn't rankings or traffic, it's proof that marketing connects to revenue, and he's built his agency's entire framework around making sure that connection never gets lost. The conversation moves from a very early career gut punch (a report full of great rankings for a client who hadn't landed a single new case) into the discipline Corey built in response: a five-step framework where the R stands for review, not reporting, because reviewing looks forward and reporting just looks back. Corey and the hosts also dig into how AI-driven search is quietly rewarding quality over quantity, and why chasing a spot on a competitor's self-serving "best of" listicle can backfire when the AI engine cites the list but drops your name from it entirely. Whether you're leading a marketing team, running an agency, or just trying to prove your own department's worth before the next budget meeting, this episode offers practical insights into making marketing measurable without losing the strategy behind it. In This Episode Why "good metrics" don't mean anything until they connect straight to revenueThe difference between reporting and review, and why one is a leadership habit and the other a passive exerciseWhy AI-driven search is rewarding quality over quantity, and quietly penalizing self-serving "best of" listiclesWhy Voltage walked away from full-service work to go deeper on fewer service linesHow to build a sustainable content engine off one piece of cornerstone content instead of starting from scratch every weekWhy marketing works better as an investment mindset than a vending machineCorey's path from web project manager to SEO specialist to agency owner at VoltageKey Takeaways Marketing metrics only matter when they're tied to a review process that connects them to real revenue impact, not just a quarterly report.In an AI-saturated search landscape, genuine expertise and a clear point of view differentiate a brand more than sheer volume of content.Specializing in fewer service lines, done at a top-tier level, builds more client trust than trying to be a one-stop shop.One well-built piece of cornerstone content (a book, a keynote, original research) can be responsibly scaled into months of authentic thought leadership.Marketing works best when it's treated like a long-term investment reviewed on a schedule, not a vending machine pulled whenever leads are needed.Resources & References The Digital Marketing Success Plan by Corey MorrisSell with Authority by Drew McLellan and Stephen WoessnerRethinking Work by Rishad TobaccowalaAbout Corey Morris Corey Morris is a best-selling author, speaker, and marketing leader. He is the creator of the START Planning Process and the founder of Digital Marketing Success Plan®.  He is the owner and President/CEO of VOLTAGE, a specialist digital agency focused on digital strategy, search/AI marketing, and websites. With more than 20 years of experience, Corey has led award-winning initiatives for brands at local, national, and global levels, helping leadership teams align marketing execution with measurable business outcomes.   His work focuses on helping leadership teams bring clarity, accountability, and adaptability to marketing decisions in an era of rapid change. Corey is a monthly expert contributor to Search Engine Journal and Search Engine Land. He speaks throughout North America on SEO, AI, and marketing strategy and accountability and has presented at events including SMX and Digital Summit. His industry leadership and community impact earned him the KCDMA’s 2019 Marketer of the Year award. Connect with Corey Morris! CoreyMorris.comCorey Morris on LinkedInConnect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

  3. Jul 22

    Ep 27 People Before Profit | Jamie Shibley

    Watch this episode on YouTube! Jamie Shibley believes the strongest businesses aren't built on transactions, they're built on relationships that are cared for on purpose, every single time. In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Jamie Shibley, CEO of The Expressory and best-selling author of Relationship-First Strategic Engagement, to explore how genuine human connection can become a repeatable business strategy. After twenty years in IT and e-commerce, Jamie discovered that the real driver of long-term growth isn't logistics or marketing spend, it's emotional equity, and she's built her agency around helping companies build it deliberately. The conversation moves from client gifting and referral nurturing into the more surprising territory of internal culture, making the case that how leaders acknowledge their own teams is the clearest predictor of how those teams will treat clients. Jamie and Jerry also dig into why AI and digital fatigue are pushing people back toward old-school, in-person connection rather than replacing it, and why the smallest, most human gestures; a handwritten note, a phone call, a "thank you" on the way out the door. are becoming the biggest competitive advantage available to any brand. Whether you're leading a team, nurturing client relationships, or building a brand from the inside out, this episode offers practical insights into turning care into a system without losing what makes it feel genuine. In This Episode Why "systematizing care" doesn't strip away authenticity. it scales itHow to build a touch-point strategy for clients, prospects, and referral partnersThe connection between employee experience and client experienceWhy quiet, uneventful stretches in a relationship are often the biggest warning signHow AI and digital fatigue are driving a return to in-person, human connectionWhat leaders often get wrong about brand, and why it's more about consistency than logosJamie's path from twenty years in corporate e-commerce to founding The ExpressoryKey Takeaways Genuine connection can be systematized without becoming impersonal — the system just has to be built on real research and intention.The best predictor of how a team treats clients is how its leaders treat the team.In a world saturated with AI-generated content, small, unmistakably human gestures are becoming a brand's sharpest differentiator.Relationships erode quietly, in the space between projects and regular, low-effort touch points are what keep them alive.The strongest brands are built on consistent private acts of care, not just public messaging.Resources & References Relationship-First Strategic Engagement by Jamie ShibleyUnreasonable Hospitality by Will GuidaraAbout Jamie Shibley Jamie Shibley is the CEO of The Expressory, a strategic engagement agency that believes the key to accelerating business growth and profitability in the post-COVID era lies in your ability to create emotional equity through nurturing meaningful relationships.  A former IT and eCommerce leader with 20 years of corporate experience, Jamie went on to launch her own successful online brand where she discovered the true power of thoughtful, strategic gifting. Now, she's on a mission to help businesses reconnect on a human level and positively impact mental wellbeing by showing care and acknowledgement in meaningful ways.  Jamie is the best-selling author of Relationship-First Strategic Engagement and is widely respected as a market leader. Her work has been featured on Entertainment Tonight and Forbes.com.  Connect with Jamie Shibley The ExpressoryJamie Shibley on LinkedInConnect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

  4. Jul 1

    Ep 26 - The Story Every Space Tells | Danny Forster

    Watch this episode on YouTube Architecture is often thought of as the art of designing buildings, but Danny Forster sees it as something much bigger: the art of communicating an experience before it exists. In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Julie Hammond sit down with architect, Emmy Award-winning television host, and founder of Danny Forster & Architecture to explore how storytelling shapes the built environment. Danny explains why architects aren't really delivering buildings. They're helping people imagine a future, understand how they'll experience a space, and connect emotionally to a vision long before construction begins. The conversation expands beyond architecture into branding, leadership, artificial intelligence, and communication. Danny shares why every profession is ultimately in the business of telling stories, how AI is changing the relationship between experts and clients, and why curiosity remains one of the most valuable traits for leaders navigating uncertainty. Whether you're designing workplaces, building brands, or leading teams, this episode offers practical insights into making the intangible tangible. In this episode  Why architecture is fundamentally an act of communication  The role storytelling plays in helping clients experience the future  How physical spaces shape culture and organizational identity  Why the best design begins with understanding human experience  How AI is transforming creative work and professional services  The importance of curiosity, empathy, and clear communication in leadership  Lessons from Danny's career spanning architecture, television, entrepreneurship, and education Key Takeaways  Great design is about creating an experience, not simply delivering a product.  Storytelling helps people understand ideas they can't yet see.  Architecture, branding, and communication all begin with empathy for the audience.  AI is changing how experts communicate, but it won't replace the need for human judgment and creativity.  The strongest brands are built by intentionally shaping the experiences people have every day. Resources & References  Danny Forster's TED Talk About Danny Forster Danny Forster is an architect, Emmy Award-winning television host, TED speaker, entrepreneur, and founder of Danny Forster & Architecture. Throughout his career, he has combined architecture, storytelling, and technology to help organizations communicate the vision behind the spaces they create. His work spans hospitality, urban planning, residential design, modular construction, and media, with projects ranging from Marriott developments to Taylor Swift's penthouse renovation. Connect with Danny Website: https://www.dannyforster.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannyforster/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannyforster Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

  5. Jun 10

    Ep 25 - Field-First Leadership | Jeff Sample

    Watch on YouTube Jeff Sample believes employee experience starts with a simple question: do leaders truly understand what their people go through every day? Jeff joins Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead to discuss how organizations can create stronger cultures by focusing less on slogans and more on understanding the realities of work. Drawing on his background in IT, software development, construction technology, and field operations, Jeff explains why empathy, trust, and curiosity are essential leadership skills. The conversation explores how culture influences business performance, why technology initiatives often fail when they ignore employee needs, and how organizations can create environments where people feel supported, valued, and able to do their best work. For leaders in AEC and professional services, the episode offers practical insights into building cultures that improve both employee and client experiences. Key Topics Discussed  Defining employee experience beyond compensation and benefits  Why understanding daily work matters for leaders  The connection between employee experience and client experience  Building trust during organizational change  Technology adoption and employee buy-in  Culture as a business enabler  Creating psychological safety and accountability  The role of curiosity in effective leadership  Why relationships remain central in a digital world  Retention, engagement, and employee value Resources Mentioned How Big Things Get Done by Bent Flyvbjerg and Dan Gardner  The Curiosity Shop with Adam Grant & Brené Brown  ConTechCrew PodcastAbout Jeff Sample Jeff Sample is Senior Industry Development Manager for Trades at Bluebeam, where he works with specialty contractors and construction professionals to improve workflows and operational performance. With more than 25 years of experience spanning IT, operations, software development, and construction technology, Jeff is known for helping organizations bridge the gap between technology, culture, and business outcomes. He is also co-host of the long-running ConTechCrew podcast. Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

  6. May 20

    Ep 24 - The Experience Clients Remember | Jill Davis

    Watch this episode on YouTube In this episode, Jerry and Carl talk with Jill Davis, Chief Strategy Officer at Cline, about what experience really means inside an AEC firm. Jill’s work sits at the intersection of marketing, strategy, brand, client relationships, and internal culture. She explains why a firm’s brand is not just what it says externally. It is also how people inside the firm work together, communicate, make decisions, and show up for clients. The conversation explores how Cline has thought about growth, leadership transition, rebranding, and the challenge of making something as abstract as “experience” feel tangible. Jill also shares why relationships and professional networks matter, especially when leaders face decisions they cannot make alone. In this episode, we cover:  Jill’s path from marketing director to Chief Strategy Officer  Why Cline’s brand needed to catch up with who the firm had become  How internal culture affects external client experience  Why architects and designers may need to think more intentionally about the business relationship side of experience  How outside perspective can help a firm better understand itself  Why communication is central to strategy  Jill’s advice to build a strong professional network Resource mentioned:  SmartLess podcast Where to find Jill:  Jill Davis on LinkedIn Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

  7. Apr 29

    Ep 23 - Ownership Changes Everything | Caitlyn Cook

    Watch this episode on YouTube In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Caitlyn Cook, Marketing and Employee Owner Experience Lead at ESS Companies, to explore how employee ownership reshapes culture, accountability, and brand. Caitlyn shares how her role bridges marketing and the employee experience, and how ESS has grown rapidly while maintaining a strong sense of ownership across its teams. We talk about what it takes to build connection across regions, why culture cannot be manufactured from the top down, and how employee ownership changes the way people show up to their work. The conversation also looks at the relationship between employee experience and client experience, why alignment between marketing, HR, and leadership is critical, and how firms can create a culture that actually holds as they scale. We cover:  • What changes when employees are also owners  • Why employee ownership shapes both culture and brand  • How employee experience influences client experience  • Why culture is built through connection, not messaging  • The importance of alignment across marketing, HR, and leadership  • How to maintain culture while scaling a growing organization Recommended resource:  • Radical Candor by Kim Scott Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

  8. Apr 15

    Ep 22 - How to Turn Clients Into Superfans | Brittany Hodak

    Watch this episode on YouTube In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Brittany Hodak to explore what it really takes to turn satisfied customers into enthusiastic advocates. Drawing from a career that spans entertainment, fan engagement, marketing, and consumer behavior, Brittany brings a sharp perspective on why the brands that win are the ones that create experiences people want to talk about.  Brittany explains that customer experience is no longer judged only against direct competitors. Instead, clients compare every interaction to the best experiences they have anywhere else in their lives. That shift raises the bar for every firm, especially in professional services, where differentiation often comes down to how it feels to work with you.  The conversation also digs into why leaders often separate acquisition from retention, why that is a mistake, and why every person on a team is part of what Brittany calls the “experience department.” Her core idea is simple and powerful: superfans are the stakeholders so delighted by their experience that they become advocates, refer others, and help create more clients.  We cover:  • Why customer experience is the real competitive battlefield  • How brands move from commodity provider to category of one  • What leaders misunderstand about acquisition, retention, and advocacy  • Why every team member contributes to the client experience  • How exceptional experiences naturally drive referrals  • What it means to create superfans, not just satisfied customers Recommended resource:  • Creating Superfans by Brittany Hodak  Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

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About

Welcome to The Intangible Brand, where we explore the connection between employee experience and client experience, and the hidden forces that make brands stick. Each episode offers practical insights and inspiration for building a brand people are proud to work for — and eager to work with. The Intangible Brand is brought to you by Cline and TOKY. Say hello@theintangiblebrand.com

Information

  • Creator
    TOKY & Cline
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    29
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 TOKY Group, Inc. and Cline Design Associates
  • Show Website
    The Intangible Brand