The Intangible Brand

TOKY & Cline
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Welcome to The Intangible Brand, where we explore the connection between employee experience and client experience, and the hidden forces that make brands stick. Each episode offers practical insights and inspiration for building a brand people are proud to work for — and eager to work with. The Intangible Brand is brought to you by Cline and TOKY. Say hello@theintangiblebrand.com

  1. 5D AGO

    Ep 18 - Building a “Widest Net” Business | Pamela Slim

    Watch on YouTube In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Pamela Slim to explore what it really takes to scale an expert-led firm without diluting the client experience that made it successful in the first place. Pamela shares insights from her work advising founders and professional service leaders who want to grow into larger, more complex markets. As firms expand, positioning gets blurrier, operations get strained, and client expectations evolve. The tension is real: growth creates opportunity, but it also exposes gaps in systems, clarity, and leadership alignment. We talk about what Pamela calls building a “widest net” business, one where the brand promise, delivery systems, and team experience are aligned. The conversation digs into how market perception can drift from reality, why operational discipline is essential for protecting brand equity, and how leaders can design businesses that scale without burning out their people or confusing their clients. This episode offers practical perspective for professional service leaders who want growth that strengthens their brand rather than undermines it. We cover: What it means to scale without eroding client experienceWhy expert-led firms struggle as they move into larger marketsThe gap between market perception and actual deliveryHow systems and profitability discipline protect brand integrityAligning team experience with client expectationsWhat a “widest net” business really looks like in practiceResources mentioned: Exceptional Experiences by Neen JamesPodcast by Nathan Barry (CEO of Kit, formerly ConvertKit)Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

    1h 2m

  2. FEB 4

    Ep 17 - Brands Built On Care | George Ghneim

    Watch this episode on YouTube In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with George Ghneim, a veterinarian, restaurateur, and distiller, to explore what brand and experience look like in businesses where emotions run high and the work is deeply human. George shares lessons from veterinary medicine and hospitality, two fields where trust, empathy, and presence are not optional. We talk about how client experience is inseparable from employee experience, especially when teams are navigating stress, grief, or urgency. George also unpacks how he thinks about brand at a small-business level, from naming and visual identity to the signals leaders send through everyday decisions. The conversation digs into how leaders can stay grounded in tense moments, why listening is often more powerful than reacting, and how support teams quietly shape the outcomes clients remember most. Throughout, George emphasizes care as a leadership discipline, not a soft value, and explains why the best brands are built through consistent human behavior rather than marketing alone. This episode offers a grounded, practical perspective for leaders in professional services who want to build brands rooted in trust, empathy, and real-world service. We cover: What veterinary medicine and hospitality teach us about experienceWhy employee experience and client experience cannot be separatedStaying calm and empathetic in emotionally charged situationsHow listening builds trust more effectively than quick fixesBuilding brand through everyday leadership decisionsThe role of support teams in shaping client outcomesResources mentioned: Peace Is Every Step by Thich Nhat HanhConnect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

    47 min

  3. JAN 21

    Ep 16 - Designing the Sound of Culture | Benjamin Sachwald

    Watch on YouTube In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Benjamin Sachwald, Senior Vice President of Acoustics, Noise, and Vibration at AKRF, to explore a dimension of employee experience that is often overlooked but deeply felt: sound. Benjamin helps unpack why acoustics is becoming a more visible and strategic part of workplace design, especially as organizations rethink offices, hybrid work, and what it means to create spaces people actually want to use. We talk about how “office vibe” is shaped not just by what we see, but by what we hear, and why sound plays a major role in focus, collaboration, and overall well-being. The conversation also looks at why acoustics can feel like a black box for many teams, how late-stage fixes often fail, and what it takes to make sound an intentional part of the design process. Benjamin shares how tools like Pindrop help teams hear design intent earlier, and why creating the right mix of spaces for calls, focus, and collaboration is really about cultural clarity. This episode offers a practical lens for leaders, designers, and firm owners who want to think more holistically about how the built environment supports both employee experience and client perception. We cover: Why acoustics is gaining importance in people-centric workplace designHow sound shapes “office vibe” and cultural perceptionThe challenges of open offices, hybrid work, and acoustic privacyDesigning spaces that support focus, calls, and collaborationMaking acoustics an intentional part of the design processHow tools like Pindrop help teams understand sound earlierResources mentioned: 20,000 Hertz podcast, with a recommendation to start with the THX Deep Note episodeAKRF and Benjamin Sachwald on LinkedInConnect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

    57 min

  4. JAN 7

    Ep 15 - Slaying Engagement Zombies | Will Percy

    Watch this episode on YouTube In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl talk with Dr. Will Percy, Executive Vice President at TeamOptix and author of Slaying Zombies: Reimagining Workplace Engagement, about why so many engagement efforts feel busy but ineffective. Will introduces the idea of “engagement zombies” the outdated beliefs, metrics, and programs that continue to walk around organizations long after they have stopped helping anyone. We explore why happiness and engagement are not the same thing, how toxicity often hides inside “high-performing” cultures, and why leadership behavior, not perks or surveys, ultimately shapes the employee experience. The conversation digs into how chaos, unclear expectations, and tolerance of the wrong behaviors quietly drain teams, especially in creative and professional service environments. Will also shares how data can be used as a coaching tool rather than a weapon, and what collective leadership actually looks like when it is done well. This episode is a practical look at how leaders can move beyond surface-level engagement efforts and create environments where people can do their best work without burning out or checking out. We cover: Why happiness is not the same as engagementWhat workplace toxicity looks like beyond extreme examplesHow chaos and lack of clarity become cultural toxinsWhy promotions and tolerance reveal true leadership valuesUsing data to support growth instead of surveillanceWhat collective leadership looks like in practiceResources mentioned: The Chimp Paradox by Steve PetersZombie Economics: The Dead Ideas Still Walk Among Us by John QuigginSlaying Zombies: Reimagining Workplace EngagementConnect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

    1h 1m

  5. 12/17/2025

    Ep 14 - Perspective Over Demographics | Susan Baier

    Watch this episode on YouTube In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Susan Baier, founder of Audience Audit, to explore how professional service firms can build stronger brands by understanding what their audiences actually believe, not just who they are on paper. Susan explains why demographics and generic personas often fall short, and how attitudinal research helps firms sharpen their point of view, create more relevant thought leadership, and earn trust over time. We talk about what clients really expect from expertise-led brands, how original research becomes a long-term differentiator, and where AI supports marketing teams versus where it risks flattening credibility. We cover: • Why perspective matters more than demographics • What attitudinal segmentation reveals that personas miss • How custom research creates defensible differentiation • What clients actually want from thought leadership • The role of trust, substance, and experience in brand building • Where AI helps and where it can quietly erode credibility Recommended resource: • Exceptional Experiences podcast by Neen James Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

    56 min

  6. 12/10/2025

    Ep 13 - Designing Service Brands Where Everyone Wins | Tate Fisher

    Watch this episode on YouTube In this episode, we talk with Tate Fisher about what it really takes to design service experiences that serve customers, support employees, and work for the business. Tate draws on years of work with multi location and franchise brands to explain why service is always co created and why balance across those three stakeholders matters more than any single tactic. The conversation hits on how to build predictable systems without stripping out humanity, what frontline teams actually need in order to create meaningful moments, and why real behavior should shape both spaces and processes. Tate also shares what he’s learned from navigating franchisor–franchisee dynamics and the north star that helps both sides stay aligned. What We Cover: The customer–employee–owner frameworkHow co creation shows up inside physical service environmentsDesigning systems that free people to deliver better experiencesLessons from telecom, franchise networks, and student housingWhere alignment breaks down in multi site brands and how to fix itResources Mentioned: The Founders podcastLearn More Tate Fisher and Katalyst Group Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

    1h 5m

  7. 11/26/2025

    Ep 12 - Becoming “Brand On” | Brandon Coleman Jr

    Watch this episode on YouTube In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl talk with Brandon Coleman Jr., a brand strategist, speaker, and author who has spent five decades helping organizations understand what brand really is and how culture shapes it. Brandon shares the stories and lessons that shaped his philosophy, from early mentors who challenged him to define value, to the rebrand of his own family firm, to his favorite example of culture-powered consistency at Buc-ee’s. His message is simple but hard-hitting: brands are built by people, trained through culture, and proven through experience. In this Episode • What “Brand On” means and why few organizations achieve it  • How culture, training, and consistency shape real brand experience  • Brandon’s early lessons in sales, confidence, and telling the truth  • The rebrand of his family firm and what it taught him about identity  • Why Buc-ee’s is a masterclass in operational culture  • How employees become brand evangelists  • Why big companies struggle with culture and where it breaks down Guest Brandon Coleman Jr. is a brand strategist, speaker, and author who has led thousands of brand alignment engagements across industries for more than 50 years. Known for his storytelling and straight talk, he teaches leaders how to build cultures that deliver on the brand every day. Resources • The Paradox of Success Connect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

    1h 6m

  8. 11/12/2025

    Ep 11 - Making Brand and Growth Inseparable | Shayne De La Force

    Watch this episode on YouTube In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and guest host Alec Gleason talk with Shayne De La Force, a marketing strategist and author of Strategic Entanglement, a book that borrows principles from quantum physics to rethink how brand and growth operate together. Shayne shares how global brands can close the gap between marketing and delivery, the cultural insights that inform his work, and why marketers must think like connectors — aligning teams, operations, and leadership around one shared promise. In this Episode What “strategic entanglement” means — and why brand and growth are inseparable (00:05:20)The CMO as connector: integrating marketing into business strategy (00:10:45)Why understanding culture is essential to effective storytelling (00:18:00)Turning employees into brand evangelists and advocates (00:29:20)Marketing as a P&L generator, not a cost center (00:37:15)How global experience shapes local impact (00:44:10)Guest Shayne De La Force is a global marketing and brand leader known for applying systems thinking to growth. Through his work with international manufacturing and technology brands, he helps organizations translate complex innovation into human stories and measurable performance. Resources Strategic Entanglement by Shayne De La ForceConnect With Us Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead Learn More about TOKY & Cline Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

    43 min
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About

Welcome to The Intangible Brand, where we explore the connection between employee experience and client experience, and the hidden forces that make brands stick. Each episode offers practical insights and inspiration for building a brand people are proud to work for — and eager to work with. The Intangible Brand is brought to you by Cline and TOKY. Say hello@theintangiblebrand.com

Information

  • Creator
    TOKY & Cline
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    18
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 TOKY Group, Inc. and Cline Design Associates
  • Show Website
    The Intangible Brand