The Labyrinth

Lisa Carley, Rich Grego Ph. D.
  • 5.0 (1)
  • Philosophy
  • Updated Monthly

An intentional space to navigate life's paradox in the same way that an arrow is shot from the bow where our aim is true but the destination is not known. You are invited into this community as an intrepid explorer of purpose, meaning, and service regarding the open terrain of spirituality, psychology, motherhood, relationships, The Arts, human potential, awareness, education, science and technology as a springboard to societal innovation and evolution. In a cross-collaboration with both Henry Crettela's Alchemical Dialogues podcast, and Joel Lesses' Unraveling Religion podcast, The Labyrinth seeks to further and promote conversations evolving our understanding of the vital topics of spirituality, the humanities, psychology, and The Arts, and we find deepening community in our mutual support. We have begun posting 'Selected, Best of Alchemical Dialogues' and 'Selected, Best of Unraveling Religion' episodes on 'The Labyrinth.'

  1. Aug 19

    'Words From The Heart Penetrate The Heart,' Required Revolution In Education As A Response To AI

    In this episode of The Labyrinth, co-hosts Rich Grego and Lisa Carley welcome Joel David Lesses for a conversation about artificial intelligence, education, critical thinking, ethics, creativity, and the future of learning. At the center of the discussion is a fundamental question: what happens to education when artificial intelligence can perform many of the tasks students have traditionally been expected to learn? The conversation begins with the growing reality that students are already using AI, even when schools prohibit or restrict its use. Students increasingly describe themselves as overwhelmed and exhausted by academic demands. Rather than responding primarily through punishment or moral judgment, the speakers consider whether educators should first understand why students are turning to AI. While AI can certainly be used to avoid intellectual work, it can also help students manage pressure, access information, explore ideas, and develop their understanding. Lisa describes how AI has challenged her to make classroom learning more meaningful and intrinsically engaging. Through literary study, including an examination of Lord of the Flies using psychological concepts such as Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, students can move beyond completing an assignment and begin exploring motivation, human behavior, relationships, and the world around them. This leads to a deeper question about the boundary between using AI as a tool and allowing it to replace the thinking process itself. The speakers recognize that technology has always changed how people conduct intellectual work. Research that once required thousands of handwritten index cards can now be organized and explored digitally. AI dramatically expands that capacity, but the important distinction is whether technology supports human thought or substitutes for it. The conversation also recognizes AI’s potential to democratize access to knowledge and creative capability. Lisa describes using AI to help develop an application despite not having formal training in business, data analysis, or computer science. Through that process, AI became not simply a means of obtaining answers, but a resource through which he could learn, experiment, and transform ideas into possibilities that might otherwise have remained inaccessible. Ultimately, the conversation returns to the human heart. AI can provide information, organize knowledge, assist with writing, and generate ideas, but meaningful education involves much more: curiosity, passion, wisdom, compassion, emotional intelligence, ethical judgment, and human relationship. A teacher can make an idea come alive through enthusiasm and genuine connection in ways that technology cannot simply reproduce. The speakers therefore move beyond the question of whether AI is good or bad. The deeper question is how we can teach people to use AI without surrendering the human capacities that make learning meaningful. AI may generate information and perform increasingly sophisticated tasks, but education has a deeper responsibility: to help human beings understand, question, create, connect, and develop wisdom. The Labyrinth invites us to see AI not simply as a technological disruption, but as an opportunity to reimagine education and place the human heart back at the center of learning.

  2. Aug 11

    Introducing The Labyrinth's New Co-host, Rich Grego, Ph.D.; Wading The Cosmic River Together with Lisa Carley, A Talk

    The Labyrinth, hosted by Lisa Carley, introduces Rich Grego, Ph.D., as Lisa’s new co-host and longtime intellectual, spiritual, and personal companion. Lisa first knew Rich as her philosophy professor when she was an undergraduate, and their relationship developed into a deep resonance that has continued throughout their lives. Lisa describes the purpose of The Labyrinth as entering a space of genuine presence with another person, allowing dialogue to unfold naturally and discovering what emerges rather than beginning with predetermined conclusions.  Together, Lisa and Rich describe the complementary perspectives they bring to the podcast. Rich approaches contemporary questions through philosophy, history, and spirituality, while Lisa begins with current cultural issues and explores their psychological, existential, and spiritual implications. Their discussions may range from artificial intelligence and education to deeper questions about what it means to be human and spiritually alive. Lisa reflects on her intellectual development, particularly her early attraction to philosophers such as Kierkegaard and Krishnamurti. She explains that she once approached these thinkers primarily through intellectual frameworks, eventually recognizing that intellectualization could become a way of avoiding the deeper emotional experiences that initially drew her to philosophy. Her training in existential therapy helped her move away from intellectual abstraction and toward the lived experience of being present with another human being during moments of crisis, revelation, and transformation. The central conversation unfolds through ten chronological themes: Intellectualization and emotional experience Lisa’s early encounter with Kierkegaard The limitations of Western philosophical traditions Gender, knowledge, and lived experience Love as experience rather than object Naming versus directly experiencing reality The emergence of the manosphere Objectification, fear, and pornography Masculinity, work, and the loss of identity Humanity’s movement toward greater wholeness The discussion ultimately returns to the fundamental purpose of The Labyrinth: creating a space where Lisa and Rich can remain fully present without an agenda and allow the conversation itself to become a practice of exploration. Rather than offering definitive answers, they move through philosophy, psychology, gender, evolution, technology, economics, relationships, masculinity, and spirituality as interconnected dimensions of human experience. Lisa emphasizes that her intention is to 'show up' with another person and see where the dialogue leads. Rich’s philosophical and historical perspective complements Lisa’s experiential and existential orientation, creating a partnership grounded in curiosity, reflection, affection, and openness. Their discussion of gender and philosophy leads naturally into contemporary questions about young men, changing cultural expectations, economic instability, relationships, and the search for identity and purpose. They consider whether some contemporary behaviors are symptoms of deeper cultural disorientation and whether society is moving toward a more integrated understanding of human experience. Lisa and Rich invite listeners into a conversation where intellectual inquiry and lived experience meet, where difficult cultural questions can be approached without immediate judgment, and where meaning is allowed to emerge through sustained dialogue. The labyrinth is not presented as a problem to solve, but as a space to enter—with curiosity, presence, and a willingness to discover where the path leads.

  3. Jul 18

    'What Are We In Service To: The Intrinsic Nature of The Universe as Discordant or Meaningful?' Examining Our Phenomenology and Inner Landscape; Pointers, Roadmaps, and Signs

    In this episode of The Labyrinth, Lisa Carley introduces Joel Lesses and Rich Grego and engage in a deeply personal narrative exploring purpose, spirituality, identity, and the role of solitude in living an authentic life.  Lisa begins by reflecting on a question that has become central to her life: how can she use her time in ways that are meaningful not only in the present moment but also in service of a larger purpose? She explains that while she values mindfulness and presence, she is equally interested in understanding how everyday choices contribute to a deeper calling. As an educator, she extends this question to modern education, asking whether schools prepare students simply for careers or whether they help people discover lives of meaning, purpose, and authentic contribution. The conversation turns to Lisa's recent experience with an Akashic Record reading, which confirmed intuitions she already held about her life direction. Rather than predicting the future, the reading encouraged her to trust an emerging sense of purpose as she considers moving into a larger artist community. She describes feeling called to become a gathering place for ideas—a person who brings together diverse perspectives, synthesizes them, and shares them in ways that serve others. Joel reflects on his own philosophical journey from a worldview that questioned whether life possessed any inherent meaning to one shaped by years of Buddhist practice and the Dharma. He explains that purpose is not something imposed upon life but something discovered through careful attention to one's inner landscape. As people recognize their natural gifts, passions, and values, they begin to understand how they are uniquely called to contribute. Echoing the familiar saying often attributed to Picasso, Joel reminds listeners that the meaning of life is to discover one's gift, while the purpose of life is to give that gift away in service to others. Lisa also shares how her understanding of identity has changed. Much of her life had been shaped by defining herself through close relationships, particularly romantic partnerships. Increasingly, however, she is discovering who she is independent of those roles. This deeper relationship with herself has brought greater clarity to her vocation and a stronger sense of alignment with her own path. The conversation explores the value of solitude within spiritual traditions, particularly Buddhism, and questions whether time alone can become an essential part of personal transformation. Rather than viewing solitude as isolation, the speakers suggest it offers space for creativity, self-discovery, and deeper listening. Lisa proposes expanding the idea of relationship itself, suggesting that we can learn to be in relationship not only with other people but with life, the universe, and reality itself. Asking what life is calling us toward becomes just as important as asking what others expect from us. Throughout the discussion, the speakers emphasize that purpose is rarely discovered through dramatic moments of revelation. More often, it emerges gradually through self-reflection, meaningful work, community, creativity, and service. Authentic living is less about arriving at certainty than about remaining attentive to the patterns that unfold throughout one's life and choosing actions that increasingly align with one's deepest values. Ultimately, this episode invites listeners to reconsider conventional ideas of success and fulfillment. Rather than measuring life solely through achievement or external recognition, Joel, Lisa, and Rich encourage a lifelong exploration of calling, authenticity, and service. Purpose is not simply a destination waiting in the future—it is something revealed through the choices we make, the lives we touch, and the willingness to remain open to the unfolding mystery of our own experience.

  4. Apr 29

    Alchemical Dialogues' 'Perfumes of the World's Traditions of The One Reality: An Examination of the Life and Influence of Paul Brunton with Micha-El (Alan Berkowitz)'

    This episode of Alchemical Dialogues features host Henry Cretella in conversation with Micha-El (Alan Berkowitz) on the life and teachings of Paul Brunton, and the intersections of Sufism, Vedanta, and other contemplative traditions. The discussion begins with Henry describing how he first encountered Brunton’s book The Short Path to Enlightenment, which he initially bought simply because of the title but left unread for years. Later, through engagement with Sufi practice and references to figures such as Ramana Maharshi and conversations within his spiritual circle, he returned to the book and found it deeply meaningful. Micha-El shares his background growing up in suburban New York in a non-religious Jewish family, where institutional religion felt empty and unengaging. During his time at Cornell University in 1969, amid political and social upheaval, he experienced an existential crisis. Feeling disillusioned with both activism and academic structures, he was directed to the American Brahmin Bookstore in Ithaca, associated with Anthony Damiani. There he encountered a comparative study of spiritual traditions, including Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufism, and Western mystical thought, all presented in a unified way. Through Damiani, Micha-El eventually encountered Paul Brunton and later met him personally several times in Switzerland and the United States. Brunton is described as someone who studied and synthesized many traditions and teachers, producing a body of work that includes A Search in Secret India and later The Notebooks of Paul Brunton, a large compilation of teachings organized into thematic categories. Micha-El emphasizes Brunton’s approach as both experiential and investigative. Brunton did not present himself as a guru but as a researcher of consciousness. His work draws from direct encounters with teachers, texts, and his own inner experience. He was also interested in integrating scientific inquiry with mystical insight, emphasizing a “scientific attitude” toward spiritual experience. A central teaching discussed is Brunton’s idea of “the quest,” which includes four aims: knowing the self, knowing the higher self (or Overself), knowing the universe, and understanding one’s relation to the universe. This framework combines inner realization with understanding of the external world, including modern science, rather than rejecting it. The conversation also covers Brunton’s distinctions between different levels of realization, including temporary “glimpses,” personal illumination, and what he called cosmic illumination. Micha-El explains that glimpses are often the initial experiences that draw people into spiritual seeking, but they are not the final stage. Meditation is described as a movement beyond thought into a deeper inner emptiness where thoughts cease. In this state, Brunton suggests, communication can occur at a subtler level than language or intellect. Henry connects this to contemplative practices in Sufism and Christianity, while Mikael relates it to similar ideas in Buddhism and Vedanta. A significant theme is the role of teachers. Brunton acknowledged that qualified teachers are rare but valuable, yet he did not require students to depend on one. Instead, he emphasized what he called an independent path, where individuals rely on inner guidance and serious study. Books, in this sense, can function as direct transmissions when deeply engaged. The discussion also addresses Brunton’s skepticism toward spiritual organizations. He observed that many become entangled in ego, power, and institutional issues. While organizations may preserve teachings, he did not see them as essential for spiritual realization. Both Henry and Micha-El reflect on the difficulty of discerning authentic teachers, noting that seekers must rely on experience, patience, and discernment rather than idealized expectations. They also dis...

  5. Mar 24

    Part 2 Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion's Collaboration 'The World As A Garden and, We, The Gardeners; The Relationship of Nature and Human Beings, An Examination of the Question 'What am I?': A Panel Discussion'

    Part 2 continues panel discussion by exploring the lived experience of unity, spirituality, and what it means to feel 'at home' in the universe, beginning with reflections on whether healing and awakening dissolve the sense of separation. Andy, drawing from his 12-step recovery background, describes spirituality as a relationship with a higher power understood personally, sharing that his connection takes shape through Christian symbolism rooted in his upbringing. He emphasizes that this framework is not exclusive, but a language through which he experiences alignment, meaning, and a sense that everything in existence is placed in right relationship. Central to his path is humility—learning to recognize value in all people and to move beyond ego-driven identity. The conversation expands into spiritual awakening as both gradual and sudden, drawing on William James’ distinction between 'educational' awakenings and sudden insight, with participants noting that suffering, hindsight, and breakthrough moments all contribute to a growing awareness of interconnectedness. Themes of non-separation emerge across traditions, including Zen and Advaita Vedanta, where suffering is understood as rooted in the illusion of a separate self, and healing arises through re-experiencing unity—both psychologically and physically in the body. Humility as a balance between recognizing higher forces and maintaining personal agency The idea that all relationships—including with the divine—are reciprocal rather than one-directional A Sufi perspective, influenced by Inayat Khan, describing the universe as moving toward love, harmony, and beauty The concept of a 'pull of the future' shaping evolution alongside past causes Parallels to scientific ideas of uncertainty and unfolding potential within the universe Joel offers a complementary perspective on karma, rooted in mystical traditions, emphasizing that every thought, action, and intention generates corresponding effects that return 'measure for measure,' shaping future experience. He frames reality as an interplay between seen and unseen dimensions, where intentionality—especially loving-kindness—acts as a generative force. The panel reflects on the interplay of karma, grace, randomness, and free will, suggesting that human life unfolds within a dynamic system of influence and choice, where individuals both shape and are shaped by experience. Closing reflections highlight the importance of shared inquiry and spiritual community, with participants emphasizing that these conversations create space for meaningful exploration beyond solitary practice. The discussion concludes with a Zen teaching offered by Joel, pointing to the enduring challenge of ethical living—avoiding harm and cultivating virtue—not as abstract ideals, but as practices that must be lived moment to moment.

  6. Mar 24

    Part 1 Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion's Collaboration 'The World As A Garden and, We, The Gardeners; The Relationship of Nature and Human Beings, An Examination of the Question 'What am I?': A Panel Discussion'

    Part 1 In the continuation of the cross-collabaortion of Alchemical Dialogues, Unraveling Religion, and The Labyrinth, we are posting this Panel Discussion. Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion co-hosts Joel Lesses and Henry Cretella convene a panel exploring spirituality, recovery, philosophy, and science through lived experience, centered on the theme of transformation as an embodied, ongoing process. Ben, a therapist and former addiction counselor, reflects on his journey through trauma, psychosis, and recovery, including an ego death experience that reframed his life through the lens of rebirth. He describes moving from feeling unsafe in his body to cultivating grounding through breath and meditation. Andrew, trained in physics, shares his experiences with bipolar disorder, atheism, and long-term substance use, ultimately finding recovery and a return to a sense of inner peace, identifying addiction as an attempt to fill a deeper spiritual void. Rich Grego, a philosopher and Professor of religion and metaphysics, introduces his scholarly background while emphasizing his continued existential questioning, highlighting the gap between intellectual understanding and lived spiritual experience. Henry Cretella, a psychiatrist influenced by Inayat Khan, describes a syncretic approach to spirituality, drawing from multiple traditions while seeking a unifying thread, and challenges the idea of 'pure' traditions by pointing to nature as inherently evolving and interconnected. Joel builds on this by referencing Eihei Dogen’s idea of 'many languages, one tongue,' suggesting that different traditions express a shared source, and introduces the central inquiry 'What am I?' as a core spiritual question. The discussion explores addiction as existential longing, reframing the restless search for meaning as a potential catalyst for transformation, and examines the relationship between humans and nature, questioning whether any true separation exists. Joel emphasizes language as a uniquely human capacity that shapes reality, while Henry dissolves the distinction between humans and nature, asserting that all phenomena arise from the same natural processes. Themes of unity and non-dual awareness emerge, with connection understood as internal rather than dependent on external conditions, and Ben reflecting that true connection can be found even in solitude. Joel introduces the metaphor of the world as a garden, drawing on teachings associated with Menachem Mendel Schneerson, describing humans as caretakers responsible for cultivating and tending both inner and outer life.

  7. 12/03/2025

    Part 2 Alchemical Dialogues' 'Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions: An Examination and Comparative Study of the Tao Te Ching, Panel Discussion'

    Part 2 of 'Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions,' starts with 'what does it mean to Serve and Love God (or Tao)? God (Tao) says, 'be what I made you to be!' God (Tao) is found in relationship. Does God want us to know Him (or ourselves) most intimately? Dependent Co-arising? 'Simultaneously, I and all beings attain the Way' (Awaken to Reality) ~Buddha 'Essentially, outside of me, nothing exists' Verse 18 What does it mean to let go? What do we let go of? To be human is to be attached? Closes with Verse 81, and then Joel reads two poems by Ikkyu. Biographies of Panel: Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church. ------ Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. ------- Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council. ------- Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.    ------- Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the Univer...

  8. 12/03/2025

    Part 1 Alchemical Dialogues' 'Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions: An Examination and Comparative Study of the Tao Te Ching, Panel Discussion'

    In this exploration of the Tao Te Ching and other traditions, the conversation opens to introductions  of the five Panelists and a invocation of hope of others to investigate the Tao Te Ching.  Bob, Brian, Rich, Henry and Joel share Verse 1 and questions arise: What is Reality? Is the Tao Reality? What is the Tao? What does the term Anti-foundational mean? Reversal Yin/ Yang in relation to Tao. Paradox and the Tao. Everyday consciousness is the pathway to the Tao. What is the relationship with Buddhism, Hinduism, Christiainity and Tao? What does silence offer in relation to the Tao? The Beginningless Beginning? Is the Tao directly knowable? Tibetan Buddihsm and the Tao. Verse 17 and Verse 38 are explored. Wu Wei.  How do we serve God? How do we serve Tao? Why did God create? Biographies of Panel: Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church. ------- Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. ------- Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council. ------- Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.    ------- Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his...

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An intentional space to navigate life's paradox in the same way that an arrow is shot from the bow where our aim is true but the destination is not known. You are invited into this community as an intrepid explorer of purpose, meaning, and service regarding the open terrain of spirituality, psychology, motherhood, relationships, The Arts, human potential, awareness, education, science and technology as a springboard to societal innovation and evolution. In a cross-collaboration with both Henry Crettela's Alchemical Dialogues podcast, and Joel Lesses' Unraveling Religion podcast, The Labyrinth seeks to further and promote conversations evolving our understanding of the vital topics of spirituality, the humanities, psychology, and The Arts, and we find deepening community in our mutual support. We have begun posting 'Selected, Best of Alchemical Dialogues' and 'Selected, Best of Unraveling Religion' episodes on 'The Labyrinth.'

Information

  • Creator
    Lisa Carley, Rich Grego Ph. D.
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2026
  • Episodes
    23
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2024
  • Show Website
    The Labyrinth