The Labyrinth

Lisa Carley
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An intentional space to navigate life's paradox in the same way that an arrow is shot from the bow where our aim is true but the destination is not known. You are invited into this community as an intrepid explorer of purpose, meaning, and service regarding the open terrain of spirituality, psychology, motherhood, relationships, The Arts, human potential, awareness, education, science and technology as a springboard to societal innovation and evolution. In a cross-collaboration with both Henry Crettela's Alchemical Dialogues podcast, and Joel Lesses' Unraveling Religion podcast, The Labyrinth seeks to further and promote conversations evolving our understanding of the vital topics of spirituality, the humanities, psychology, and The Arts, and we find deepening community in our mutual support. We have begun posting 'Selected, Best of Alchemical Dialogues' and 'Selected, Best of Unraveling Religion' episodes on Lisa Carley's 'The Labyrinth.'

  1. MAR 24

    Part 2 Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion's Collaboration 'The World As A Garden and, We, The Gardeners; The Relationship of Nature and Human Beings, An Examination of the Question 'What am I?': A Panel Discussion'

    Part 2 continues panel discussion by exploring the lived experience of unity, spirituality, and what it means to feel 'at home' in the universe, beginning with reflections on whether healing and awakening dissolve the sense of separation. Andy, drawing from his 12-step recovery background, describes spirituality as a relationship with a higher power understood personally, sharing that his connection takes shape through Christian symbolism rooted in his upbringing. He emphasizes that this framework is not exclusive, but a language through which he experiences alignment, meaning, and a sense that everything in existence is placed in right relationship. Central to his path is humility—learning to recognize value in all people and to move beyond ego-driven identity. The conversation expands into spiritual awakening as both gradual and sudden, drawing on William James’ distinction between 'educational' awakenings and sudden insight, with participants noting that suffering, hindsight, and breakthrough moments all contribute to a growing awareness of interconnectedness. Themes of non-separation emerge across traditions, including Zen and Advaita Vedanta, where suffering is understood as rooted in the illusion of a separate self, and healing arises through re-experiencing unity—both psychologically and physically in the body. Humility as a balance between recognizing higher forces and maintaining personal agency The idea that all relationships—including with the divine—are reciprocal rather than one-directional A Sufi perspective, influenced by Inayat Khan, describing the universe as moving toward love, harmony, and beauty The concept of a 'pull of the future' shaping evolution alongside past causes Parallels to scientific ideas of uncertainty and unfolding potential within the universe Joel offers a complementary perspective on karma, rooted in mystical traditions, emphasizing that every thought, action, and intention generates corresponding effects that return 'measure for measure,' shaping future experience. He frames reality as an interplay between seen and unseen dimensions, where intentionality—especially loving-kindness—acts as a generative force. The panel reflects on the interplay of karma, grace, randomness, and free will, suggesting that human life unfolds within a dynamic system of influence and choice, where individuals both shape and are shaped by experience. Closing reflections highlight the importance of shared inquiry and spiritual community, with participants emphasizing that these conversations create space for meaningful exploration beyond solitary practice. The discussion concludes with a Zen teaching offered by Joel, pointing to the enduring challenge of ethical living—avoiding harm and cultivating virtue—not as abstract ideals, but as practices that must be lived moment to moment.

    37 min

  2. MAR 24

    Part 1 Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion's Collaboration 'The World As A Garden and, We, The Gardeners; The Relationship of Nature and Human Beings, An Examination of the Question 'What am I?': A Panel Discussion'

    Part 1 In the continuation of the cross-collabaortion of Alchemical Dialogues, Unraveling Religion, and The Labyrinth, we are posting this Panel Discussion. Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion co-hosts Joel Lesses and Henry Cretella convene a panel exploring spirituality, recovery, philosophy, and science through lived experience, centered on the theme of transformation as an embodied, ongoing process. Ben, a therapist and former addiction counselor, reflects on his journey through trauma, psychosis, and recovery, including an ego death experience that reframed his life through the lens of rebirth. He describes moving from feeling unsafe in his body to cultivating grounding through breath and meditation. Andrew, trained in physics, shares his experiences with bipolar disorder, atheism, and long-term substance use, ultimately finding recovery and a return to a sense of inner peace, identifying addiction as an attempt to fill a deeper spiritual void. Rich Grego, a philosopher and Professor of religion and metaphysics, introduces his scholarly background while emphasizing his continued existential questioning, highlighting the gap between intellectual understanding and lived spiritual experience. Henry Cretella, a psychiatrist influenced by Inayat Khan, describes a syncretic approach to spirituality, drawing from multiple traditions while seeking a unifying thread, and challenges the idea of 'pure' traditions by pointing to nature as inherently evolving and interconnected. Joel builds on this by referencing Eihei Dogen’s idea of 'many languages, one tongue,' suggesting that different traditions express a shared source, and introduces the central inquiry 'What am I?' as a core spiritual question. The discussion explores addiction as existential longing, reframing the restless search for meaning as a potential catalyst for transformation, and examines the relationship between humans and nature, questioning whether any true separation exists. Joel emphasizes language as a uniquely human capacity that shapes reality, while Henry dissolves the distinction between humans and nature, asserting that all phenomena arise from the same natural processes. Themes of unity and non-dual awareness emerge, with connection understood as internal rather than dependent on external conditions, and Ben reflecting that true connection can be found even in solitude. Joel introduces the metaphor of the world as a garden, drawing on teachings associated with Menachem Mendel Schneerson, describing humans as caretakers responsible for cultivating and tending both inner and outer life.

    27 min

  3. 12/03/2025

    Part 2 Alchemical Dialogues' 'Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions: An Examination and Comparative Study of the Tao Te Ching, Panel Discussion'

    Part 2 of 'Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions,' starts with 'what does it mean to Serve and Love God (or Tao)? God (Tao) says, 'be what I made you to be!' God (Tao) is found in relationship. Does God want us to know Him (or ourselves) most intimately? Dependent Co-arising? 'Simultaneously, I and all beings attain the Way' (Awaken to Reality) ~Buddha 'Essentially, outside of me, nothing exists' Verse 18 What does it mean to let go? What do we let go of? To be human is to be attached? Closes with Verse 81, and then Joel reads two poems by Ikkyu. Biographies of Panel: Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church. ------ Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. ------- Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council. ------- Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.    ------- Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the Univer...

    22 min

  4. 12/03/2025

    Part 1 Alchemical Dialogues' 'Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions: An Examination and Comparative Study of the Tao Te Ching, Panel Discussion'

    In this exploration of the Tao Te Ching and other traditions, the conversation opens to introductions  of the five Panelists and a invocation of hope of others to investigate the Tao Te Ching.  Bob, Brian, Rich, Henry and Joel share Verse 1 and questions arise: What is Reality? Is the Tao Reality? What is the Tao? What does the term Anti-foundational mean? Reversal Yin/ Yang in relation to Tao. Paradox and the Tao. Everyday consciousness is the pathway to the Tao. What is the relationship with Buddhism, Hinduism, Christiainity and Tao? What does silence offer in relation to the Tao? The Beginningless Beginning? Is the Tao directly knowable? Tibetan Buddihsm and the Tao. Verse 17 and Verse 38 are explored. Wu Wei.  How do we serve God? How do we serve Tao? Why did God create? Biographies of Panel: Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church. ------- Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. ------- Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council. ------- Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.    ------- Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his...

    40 min

  5. 10/22/2025

    Unraveling Religion's 'The Many Faces of Poetry, Language of The Heart, Song of Praise: A Conversation with Pádraig Ó Tuama, Poet and Theologian'

    On this cross-posted episode from the Unraveling Religion podcast, Pádraig Ó Tuama joins Unraveling Religion's Host, Joel Lesses, and shares a conversation from the heart about poetry, spirituality, community, and communion. The conversation opens to how Joel and Pádraig met, and what informed Pádraig's life as a Poet and Theologian. Pádraig recalls the influences of Ireland and school and the foundation of poetry in that experience, and poetry as resistance, and the role of Peacemaker in the world. Pádraig reads from his new book of poetry Kitchen Hymns' poem, 'The Long Table.' The conversation opens to many faces of poetry and existence: Are we irrelevant to the Universe or is the human being the center point of existence? Do we understand what Love Is? Joel reads from the Mountains and Rivers Sutra of Dogen Zenji's Shobogenzo Coming together for the point of comprehension and not necessary agreement The Church views of LGBTQ+ Community Beyond formal belief and nurturing the heart Pádraig and mentoring the younger generation Pádraig's Kitchen Hymns and On Being's Poetry Unbound Anthology released in 2025: 44 Poems on Being with Each Another  Jewish Mysticism and Kabbalah Kabbalah is for Humankind Plato's Soul with Two Faces The importance of Good Questions is rooted in Judaism and is applicable to all spiritual traditions Midrash in Judaism  The body and the erotic in relation to spirituality and the deeper questions of existence Star of David deconstructed In Judaism a single person is known as half a human being The Garments of the Soul: Intention, Thought, Action, and Speech The Zohar and the thirst for deeper esoteric secrets Pádraig examines the relationship between poetry and prayer 'You' in poetry, most prayers include the word 'you' Pádraig reads from Kitchen Hymns, 'Do You Believe In God?' Close examination of a text will lead you into infinitity  Are Jewish soul's always in Jewish bodies? Joel reads Gary Synder's 'Why Log Truck Drivers Rise Earlier Than Students of Zen' Poetry transpo...

    53 min

  6. 09/11/2025

    Unraveling Religion's 'Accessing The Liminal Space of Surrender And Transformation: A Talk With Crazywise Documentary Filmmaker Phil Borges'

    Unraveling Religion's episode with Crazywise Documentary Filmmaker Phil Borges who joins Joel for a discussion of Phil's life post Crazywise and together they explore mental health and its relation spirituality, beginning with how does one define spirituality.  Phil's history of experiences into spirituality, beginning with the death of his father and Phil's Aunt returning from a psychiatric hospitalization to Phil's home when Phil was a boy. Also discussed, Phil's career development and choice and his search for meaningful work; from Orthodontistry to Photography and shooting covers of Romance Novels, Phil begin an ascent into work and exploring indigenous cultures. His first project was working on a project in Tibet which he meet a young man identified as a Tulku (i.e., channeler of the Nachung Oracle, the Oversoul Protector of the Tibetan People Culture and Heritage).  Phil interviewed the Tulku and learned how he came to his position in the Tibetan community. The indicators of this position were seen in his Tibetan Community as positive signs of a gifted person and included mood swings, personality changes, hearing voices, and seeing visions. This mental health crisis was the mark of a gifted person in Tibetan community.  In other work, Phil worked with Amnesty International and the Samburu Tribe in where he met a young woman who at 14 started hearing voices and seeing vision. Her grandmother recognized she had the gift to become a predictor, healer, and shaman in her community and took her under her wing and mentored her and these gifts into a skillset to benefit the community. As Phil worked with many indigenous communities he began to interview the shaman, seers, healers, and predictors of these communities and found about 85% of the shaman had an an initiation into the path of the Shaman by a mental health crisis, defined by what the West would call psychosis.  The community understood the mental health crisis as the beginning of a process of developing a person to become a leader, healer, and teacher in their community, and an elder would take them under their wing and mentor and guide them. The mental emotional crisis is known by many shaman as 'The Little Death' or Ego Death. Phil also in his career worked with neuroscientists to research the pathways of the brain. Sudden awakening versus slow awakening was discussed across cultures (i.e., Mahayana school of Soto and Rinzai). Phil also discusses his own experiences with psychedelics and micro-dosing and the importance of integrating those expericences into daily life require effort and work. Phil and Joel discuss that we each have a specific kind of work and the human's journey is to search and find what that work might be.  Liminal Space was defined as a threshold or a doorway and rebuilding after a breakthrough. Phil reflects on his life now and his work on his memoirs documenting where his quest for meaningful work took him through his life.

    56 min

  7. 07/28/2025

    Unraveling Religion's 'The Cry of Life,' Palestinian Realities in Gaza and The West Bank; Cost, Record, and Directions: A Talk with Naomi Shihab Nye and Five Time Nobel Peace Prize Nominee Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish

    Unraveling Religion's Joel David Lesses holds a conversation with Naomi Shihab Nye and Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish, cross posted on The Labyrinth as a part of the ongoing cross-pollination with Unraveling Religion, Alchemical Dialogues, and The Labyrinth.    Naomi Shihab Nye opens the talk reading a new, recently penned poem, Current Affairs.   Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish then introduces himself and segways into the realities of his experiences growing up in Gaza, the Jabalia Camp, what he has seen and witnessed, the loss of his three daugthers and niece in 2009 from an Israeli tank shell (i.e., I Shall Not Hate) and his pride in his Palestinan heritage, family, and community.   He shares his deep belief and conviction 'nothing is impossible in life.' He also expresses: Medicine as a great human equalizer Toward human rights, once people step away from the border of the hospitals, they become categorized and labeled 'Palestinian' or 'Israeli' If you believe in Humanity, we must all stand for all Human Rights is deeply tested in Gaza, people must stand up for human rights Advocate not for peace but for dignity, justice, freedom, and human rights for all: peace will follow when these conditions are cultivated  Naomi shares her family history and the experiences of relocating after the Nakba. Naomi also shares: As a poet, every voice is important in the world, every voice represents humanity.  Regarding Gaza, this is an overwhelming tragedy of sorrow The importance of actions based on one's convictions The power of the military industry complex to overide the voice of the majority and humanity's collective voice How can we be heard, how can we be listened to? Who is listening? The idea, our obligation is to our humanity, looking within our selves we recognize our humanity Dr. Abuelaish shares his experiences as an author.    The priority of Palestinians toward education.   Human Rights, respect and dignity for all.   What is our modern sense of responsibility and obligation toward our fellow humans, what is our modern sense of meaning, mission, and purpose.   A human being is a human being [only] through another person.   Truth telling as means of healing.     The situation is Gaza and West Bank harms Israel deeply as well.    Naomi shares Hibu Abu Nabab's poem, Not Just Passing.   The political power and politics contrbuting to the crisis in Gaza and the West Bank.   Dr. Abuelaish reviews the history of Gaza since 2000.   And, Naomi closes with her poem, For Gaza   The children are still singing...

    48 min

  8. 05/01/2025

    Part 2 Theoretical Activism, An Exploration of Wu Wei: Practical Application of Philosophy, A Panel Discussion

    In a collaboration of Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion, co-hosted by Henry Cretella and Joel Lesses, Part 2 the Panels opens to discuss: 'What makes us come alive?' 'What is your 'note' in life?' (Rumi's 'be your note.') Discussion turns to Rumi's quote 'when I was young I wanted to change the world, when I grew older I wanted only to change myself.' How do we attune to spiritual teachers? How do we know who our spiritual teachers are meant to be? Moments that open and we lose sense of time, time falls away: Activity ​ When meeting new people, old karmic connections?  In our Dharma, our work Henry's discussions, Sohbet, mystical discussions on mystical subjects, with his teacher. How do we find what makes us home in the world? How do we cultivate spiritual discernment in Life? The World as ourself Is there preparation to receive 'flow' states? The Panel also explores: Where does the spiritual path begin?  What are the implications of having a guide or spiritual teacher? Teachers seeing into their students Tears as an indicator of one's spiritual path Sufism as a path of 'heart' Karma of helping others as way of being helped The importance of 'others before self.' We end with two poems from Ikkyu: Raincoat and Straw Hat Woodcutters and fishermen know just how to use things. What would they do with fancy chairs and meditation platforms? In straw sandals and with a bamboo staff, I roam three thousand worlds, Dwelling by the water, feasting on the wind, year after year. I Hate The Smell of Incense A master's handiwork cannot be measured But still priests wag their tongues explaining the 'Way' and babbling about 'Zen.' This old monk has never cared for false piety And my nose wrinkles at the dark smell of incense before the Buddha.

    31 min
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About

An intentional space to navigate life's paradox in the same way that an arrow is shot from the bow where our aim is true but the destination is not known. You are invited into this community as an intrepid explorer of purpose, meaning, and service regarding the open terrain of spirituality, psychology, motherhood, relationships, The Arts, human potential, awareness, education, science and technology as a springboard to societal innovation and evolution. In a cross-collaboration with both Henry Crettela's Alchemical Dialogues podcast, and Joel Lesses' Unraveling Religion podcast, The Labyrinth seeks to further and promote conversations evolving our understanding of the vital topics of spirituality, the humanities, psychology, and The Arts, and we find deepening community in our mutual support. We have begun posting 'Selected, Best of Alchemical Dialogues' and 'Selected, Best of Unraveling Religion' episodes on Lisa Carley's 'The Labyrinth.'

Information

  • Creator
    Lisa Carley
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2026
  • Episodes
    19
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2024
  • Show Website
    The Labyrinth