The Messy Middle

Wael "L" Abou-Zaki

The Messy Middle is a cinematic conversation series by Wael Abou-Zaki exploring the unseen process behind creativity, leadership, and purpose. Each episode goes beyond the results to uncover the messy middle. We unpack the doubts, pivots, and breakthroughs that shape who we are and how we grow. Because nobody skips the messy middle. It’s where the story truly lives. 🎙 New episodes are live on the first Monday of each Month on YouTube and Spotify.

Episodes

  1. 3d ago

    They Gave Us $64 Million. Who Am I? | David Metz on Building Prizeout, Failure, and Gratitude

    The night someone wired his company sixty four million dollars, David Metz's first thought wasn't victory. It was, who am I to deserve this? David is the founder and CEO of Prizeout, a fintech company that partners with credit unions to put rewards and cash back into the pockets of middle America. But he didn't set out to build a fintech. He was running a real-money trivia app, FleetWit, when he noticed customers cashing out their winnings to gift cards for brands they'd never used. One cold call to Papa John's later, he walked into his board and said, "Don't kill me. We're going from trivia to fintech." This conversation isn't really about a startup. It's about what it takes to build something durable without losing yourself in the process. David and Wael get into resilience, leadership, and the parts of the founder journey nobody romanticizes. Why being a CEO is service, not power. Why he raises money from entrepreneurs instead of VCs. How he keeps his kids close to adversity while living in a city that makes comfort easy. And why, after everything, he believes the real secret is gratitude. In this episode:• Turning a trivia app into a $64M fintech, almost by accident• Why a CEO's real job is service, not power• Raising from founders instead of VCs, and the mentors who "have been there"• Credit unions, middle America, and building something that helps• Pivoting without ego, and why "we suffer more in imagination than in reality"• Building culture by example, and why the founder eats last• Raising resilient kids, and the gratitude that outlasts any number Chapters:00:00 The intro00:35 Old friends: how David and Wael met02:39 Recreating the team: from D1 sports to startups05:29 Born or made? Entrepreneur parents and ADHD as a superpower07:07 What success actually looks like now10:00 Why he raises from founders, not VCs12:30 FleetWit and the accidental pivot to fintech15:44 Keeping the whole cap table whole16:37 Credit unions and helping middle America19:43 Changing direction without ego22:33 Get rich slowly (Buffett and Bezos)27:29 Why being a CEO is service, not power29:18 Hiring people who complete you32:18 Breaking points, armor, and "the worst thing is fine"38:14 Raising kids who know adversity46:49 Building culture, and why you eat last51:21 What success doesn't fix: gratitude55:11 The question we're not asking: nobody knows when He closes on a line from Marcus Aurelius. Nobody knows when. So did you seize today, did you tell the people you love that you love them, did you give it everything you had? Because the number was never the point. The way you build, and who you become doing it, is. The Messy Middle is a cinematic interview series hosted by filmmaker and creative director Wael Abou-Zaki. It sits with entrepreneurs, artists, and builders to uncover the truth about growth: the process, the pivots, the doubts, and the breakthroughs between chaos and clarity. New episodes the first Monday of every month. Listen to the full series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmsSIvOwknmLCq4k56pIqAxrkoz1JOCLG #DavidMetz #Prizeout #TheMessyMiddle #Fintech #Entrepreneurship #StartupFounder #Leadership #CreditUnions #Resilience #VentureCapital

  2. Jul 6

    Peace Is Your Center of Gravity | Shadeh Smith on Culture, Burnout, and Coming Back to Yourself

    Shadeh Smith spent more than fifteen years building culture for some of the biggest names in music. From Kehlani and Burna Boy to Ed Sheeran, and more recently the new world of streamers like IShowSpeed and Kai Cenat. She came up the hard way, from picking up laundry and driving artists to becoming a music commissioner and creative director at Atlantic Records. Then she walked away from the machine to build her own studio, evrdydrmr, and a nonprofit, She Made It, that opens doors for filmmakers who rarely get into the room.This conversation isn't really about a music career.It's about what it costs to tie your identity to a company, and what it takes to come back to yourself.Shadeh and Wael get into the parts most people leave out. The burnout and code-switching that came with the job. The void that opens when the title disappears. The healing work she inherited from her father. And the quiet decision to build in a way that lets her life breathe.In this episode:• Building with purpose instead of grinding yourself down• Leaving a major label to bet on herself• What a music commissioner actually does, and the relationships that hold it together• Burnout, identity, and losing yourself inside a role• Reiki, craniosacral healing, and where her spirituality comes from• Grief, peace, and the questions she can't put down• She Made It, and why access is the whole game for underrepresented filmmakersChapters:00:00 The interview begins02:40 What she's building now: purpose over the grind07:45 Leaving the label to build evrdydrmr12:50 "I was a bit of a bulldog": relearning how she works17:15 Brazil, a politics degree, and the dream of changing the world23:50 Breaking into music: from laundry runs to Atlantic Records33:40 Burnout, code-switching, and losing her identity45:55 The moment evrdydrmr was born49:10 Building worlds for NBA YoungBoy, IShowSpeed, and Kai Cenat1:05:50 Healing, reiki, and her father the healer1:12:00 Loss, death, and the questions she can't put down1:17:30 Peace vs. happiness1:23:00 She Made It: opening the door for underrepresented filmmakers1:42:45 The one question we're not asking ourselvesLate in the conversation she lands on the question she thinks most of us avoid. Not what do you want, but "Am I doing this the way I actually want to?" Get clear on the way, she says, and the rest starts to follow.The Messy Middle is a cinematic interview series hosted by filmmaker and creative director Wael Abou-Zaki. It sits with entrepreneurs, artists, and builders to uncover the truth about growth: the process, the pivots, the doubts, and the breakthroughs between chaos and clarity. New episodes the first Monday of every month.evrdydrmr: https://everydaydreamer.co/She Made It: https://www.shemadeit.space/Listen to the full series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmsSIvOwknmLCq4k56pIqAxrkoz1JOCLG#ShadehSmith #TheMessyMiddle #evrdydrmr #SheMadeIt #Kehlani #BurnaBoy #IShowSpeed #MusicIndustry #Filmmaking #CreativeDirector #ArtistDevelopment #CreatorEconomy

  3. Jun 1

    Julian Boothe on Discovering Pitbull, Love & Hip Hop & Reinventing Yourself

    Before he was producing films. Before television. Before building entertainment companies.Julian Boothe was a young immigrant from Jamaica trying to find his place in the music business.Along the way he worked alongside Uncle Luke, discovered Pitbull before the world knew his name, helped develop artists including Rick Ross, Trina, Trick Daddy and Plies, played a key role in launching Love & Hip Hop Miami, built viral content businesses, and eventually transitioned into film and television production.But this conversation isn't really about music. It's about reinvention. In this episode of The Messy Middle, Julian shares what he learned from mentorship, entrepreneurship, artist development, reality television, filmmaking, and betting on himself long before anyone else would.We discuss:• Discovering Pitbull and signing him to his first deal• Lessons learned from Uncle Luke and Miami's music scene• Working with artists like Rick Ross, Trina, Trick Daddy and Plies• The real role of A&R and talent development• Why passion matters more than money early in your career• Building businesses through multiple industry shifts• The rise of Love & Hip Hop Miami• Transitioning from music to television and film• The importance of mentorship and collaboration• Why creators need spaces to discover their voice• Taking risks before you feel ready• Building an entertainment ecosystem for the next generationOne of the most powerful ideas Julian shares is simple: Don't wait for permission. Build the thing, learn the skill and take the risk.And keep reinventing yourself until you become the person capable of creating the future you envision.CHAPTERS00:00 Introduction01:31 What Julian Is Building Today03:46 The Mentor Who Changed Everything06:39 Passion Over Money07:45 Growing Up Jamaican & Entrepreneurial10:42 Discovering Pitbull14:45 Watching Pitbull Become a Global Star17:25 Working With Rick Ross, Trina, Trick Daddy & Plies22:14 What A&R Really Does26:36 Knowing You Found Your Calling30:06 Reinventing Yourself Across Industries34:27 The Truth About Love & Hip Hop36:45 How Love & Hip Hop Miami Started39:49 Becoming Part of the Show44:46 Rebuilding After Public Criticism47:00 Transitioning Into Film50:14 The Economics of Independent Filmmaking54:55 Why Julian Believes He Can't Lose57:02 Building Movies From the Ground Up01:00:00 Legacy, Creators & What's Next🎙️ The Messy Middle explores identity, growth, leadership, entrepreneurship, creativity, and the realities behind success.Now streaming on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.#TheMessyMiddle #JulianBoothe #Pitbull #LoveAndHipHopMiami #Entrepreneurship #Filmmaking #MusicIndustry #CreatorEconomy #Leadership

  4. May 4

    Michael Vick on Finding Your Truths And Controlling The Narrative

    Michael Vick has been one of the most discussed athletes of our lifetime, but “hearing the story” isn’t the same as knowing the person. In this episode of The Messy Middle, we sit down for a real conversation about identity, leadership, trust, and legacy, and what it actually takes to control your head space when the world is loud. We talk about why people say “we’ve heard Mike’s story,” how assumptions get made, and why that mindset shows up everywhere in business, in relationships, and in the way we judge each other. Mike speaks on work ethic, fear of failure, humility, leadership in the purest form, and what it means to build standards for everyone around you. This is not a football story. It’s a human story about what it costs to become the man your community needed when you were a kid. If this conversation hits you, subscribe and drop a comment: What’s one truth you’re learning to live by right now? Watch more Messy Middle episodes Follow Zaki Rose on IG Business / Partnerships: info@zakirose.com  Chapters: 00:00 Intro + why we made The Messy Middle 00:43 Relationship, identity, and why this conversation matters 01:41 “Not a football story, a human story” 02:41 What Mike is building right now: work ethic and consistency 05:06 Humility, greatness, and discipline 06:44 Mentors and the “complex” path to success 07:03 Who is Michael Vick to others and to himself 09:06 Legacy, standards, and “leading in the purest form” 10:27 Fear of failure and managing pressure 12:45 Failure, growth, and learning the hard way 14:54 Coaching men: the conversations he doesn’t want to have 23:19 The part of leadership he regrets  24:51 Controlling your head space + “over-saturated” + assumptions 27:00 Truth, listening, and staying grounded 29:10 Trust, betrayal, and giving the benefit of the doubt 31:12 A deep truth: selfishness, humility, and resetting standards 35:28 Legacy: what’s locked vs. what still needs earning 40:38 Commitment, accountability, and what coaching really means 41:33 What it takes to truly know a person 45:00 “Great listener, great vision”  46:21 If Mike wasn’t a football player…  #zakirose #themessymiddle #mikevick #leadership #truth

  5. Apr 6

    Ownership Is Everything | The Business of Music and Legacy

    “To be wealthy in America, you have to own something.”That is the foundation of this conversation with Ricardo Frazer. From Costa Rica to New York to the Pacific Northwest, Ricardo’s journey spans decades in music, business, and mentorship. But his impact goes far beyond the industry.This episode is about:• Why ownership is the foundation of wealth• Understanding contracts and reading every word• The difference between art and the business of art• Helping creators survive, not struggle• Why loyalty and trust matter more than paperwork• Being willing to walk away from the wrong deal• The balance between ego and purpose• Building legacy for the next generationRicardo helped shape careers, protect intellectual property, and guide artists toward long-term success. But at the core, this is not just a business conversation. It is about consciousness, integrity, and how you choose to move through life.🎬 Episode 8 of The Messy Middle is live now on Youtube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts. #themessymiddle #zakirose #mixalot #ownership #music #consciousness CHAPTERS:00:00 – Ownership Is Everything00:45 – Who Is Ricardo Frazer02:00 – Mission in This Phase of Life04:10 – Building Legacy for the Next Generation05:50 – Growing Up in Costa Rica07:30 – Moving to New York and Finding Identity09:00 – Choosing Washington and Following Intuition10:45 – Passion for Music and Business13:00 – Understanding the Economics of Music15:00 – Helping Artists Survive and Thrive17:10 – The Business of Music Explained19:20 – Owning Your Masters and Publishing22:00 – Reading Contracts and Knowing the Details23:05 – Why Ownership Creates Wealth24:30 – Turning Down Short-Term Money25:00 – Loyalty and Long-Term Relationships27:00 – Trust Over Contracts29:00 – Negotiation as an Art31:00 – Knowing When to Walk Away33:30 – Standing on Principle35:30 – The Reality of the Music Business36:00 – Why Ownership Protects the Future38:00 – Creating Space and Making Better Decisions40:00 – Self-Awareness and Inner Work41:00 – Growth, Family, and Spiritual Connection

  6. Mar 2

    What Justice Really Means | One of The Youngest Judge in Virginia

    What is punishment?Is it retribution?Is it rehabilitation?Is it accountability?Or is it something deeper?In this episode of The Messy Middle, we sit inside a courtroom in Henrico County with Judge Nael Abouzaki, one of the youngest judges in Virginia.But this is not a story about power. It is about humility. Nael came to America from a small village in Lebanon at seven years old. He once sat in this same courthouse as a juvenile defendant. Today, he presides from the bench.We talk about:• Growing up as an immigrant trying to find identity• Being a defendant before becoming a judge• Prosecuting violent cases and seeing two victims in every courtroom• Why a 30 second decision can cost 48 years• Judging emotions, not just actions• Ordering defendants to look in the mirror and confront who they are• Why guidance changes everything• What justice actually meansThis conversation is not about headlines. It is about ripple effects. About children. About families. About what happens after the case closes.Justice is not just a verdict. It is a responsibility.🎬 Episode 7 of The Messy Middle is live now on Youtube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts. 00:00 – What Is Punishment 01:20 – Why Justice Is More Than a Verdict 03:00 – What It Means to Judge With Humility 05:30 – Becoming One of Virginia’s Youngest Judges 06:45 – Immigrating From Lebanon at Seven 08:15 – No Flying Cars. The Real American Dream 10:45 – Being the Underdog and Finding Identity 11:50 – Sitting in This Court as a Juvenile Defendant 14:30 – From Prosecutor to Judge 15:20 – Giving a Voice to the Underdog 17:30 – Seeing Two Victims in Every Case 19:00 – The Story of V 23:00 – A Text That Changed Everything 26:30 – Why Money Is Not the Metric 27:00 – A 48 Year Sentence for 30 Seconds 30:30 – The Unexpected Call to Become a Judge 34:30 – How Judges Are Selected in Virginia 39:00 – The Weight of “All Rise” 41:30 – 99.9 Percent the Same 42:30 – Why Guidance Changes Lives 46:00 – Judging Emotions 48:45 – Look in the Mirror [Final Segment] – What Question Are We Not Asking Ourselves Enough #TheMessyMiddle #justice #judge #immigrant #community

  7. Feb 2

    11 Emmys Later: Bill McCullough on IP Ownership, Metrics, and Making Hits

    Bill McCullough has worn every hat: HBO Sports, GoPro, NFL Media, FaZe Clan, XFL. Eleven Sports Emmys and a career defined by adapting, building teams, and owning the work. In this episode we go inside the engine under the titles: how to protect taste at scale, when metrics sharpen instinct, and why rejection is fuel.In this conversation:- From premium docs to creator worlds- Building the NFL content machine- What metrics actually matter- IP and ownership in 2026- The cost of chasing the next chapterChapters00:00 Cold open01:05 Why start again after success08:40 HBO to GoPro to NFL18:30 Building a content engine28:10 Metrics that sharpen instinct39:55 Creator economy and FaZe52:20 XFL lessons1:04:10 Ownership and IP1:12:00 Meaning, legacy, what success did not fixSubscribe for new episodes of The Messy Middle. Drops the first Monday of each Month on Youtube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.#themessymiddle #BillMcCullough #Filmmaking #NFL #HBO #FaZe #dudeperfect #ContentStrategy #CreatorEconomy #OwnYourIP

  8. Jan 5

    How Dr. Jim Olson Made Cancer Visible and How He Is Changing Surgery Forever

    Dr. Jim Olson is a pediatric neuro-oncologist who has spent his life working where science, grief, and hope collide.In this episode of The Messy Middle, we sit down with Dr. Olson in Seattle to trace the path from his childhood in Upper Michigan to the operating rooms where tumors now light up in real time. His work led to Tumor Paint, a breakthrough imaging agent derived from scorpion venom that helps surgeons see cancer cells while sparing healthy brain tissue.But this conversation goes far beyond a single discovery.Wael and Dr. Jim Olson have known each other for more than a decade. Over that time, they’ve crossed paths through science, creativity, and shared purpose. But this was the first time they were able to sit down without an agenda and really talk about life.Dr. Olson shares how loss shaped his purpose, why he chose pediatric oncology despite the emotional cost, and how he built companies, labs, and communities to push ideas across the gap between research and real-world impact. We explore Presage Biosciences and the CIVO platform, a way to test drugs directly inside living tumors, and Project Violet, a community-funded initiative born from a child’s final wish to help others.This episode is about choosing impact over credit, building teams instead of empires, and staying human in work where the stakes are life and death.This is not just science.It is responsibility.It is systems.It is heart. LINKS TO DONATE HERE:Here is a link to help fund a cure for pediatric brain cancer: https://give.seattlechildrens.org/give/722434/#!/donation/checkout You can also donate here to William Murtagh (aka "Iron Heart") and for every child and family who has faced the heartbreak of a pediatric brain tumor: https://give.seattlechildrens.org/fundraiser/6868285#TheMessyMiddle #Science #Humanity #MedicalInnovation #CancerResearch #PurposeDriven

  9. 12/01/2025

    The Architect Who Builds for Storms, Struggle, and Human Survival | Ted Givens

    Architect and futurist Ted Givens has spent his career designing at the edge of what’s possible, from Hong Kong towers to kinetic, climate-resilient homes built to move with the weather.In this episode of The Messy Middle, Ted shares how he left the safety of big firms, helped build 10 DESIGN, launched his experimental studio BIRD, and why he keeps chasing ideas that look risky on paper but matter in the real world.If you care about architecture, climate, design, risk, and creative careers, this one’s for you.In this conversation with Ted Givens:- How a kid obsessed with drawing and storms became a global architect- Leaving the comfort of legacy firms to co-found 10 DESIGN- The reality of competitions, burnout, and big-vision projects- The story behind Tornado House and kinetic disaster-proof design- Designing ultra-poor and disaster housing and what he got wrong- Why he created BIRD Studio while still leading at 10 DESIGN- How he teaches young architects to design for risk, narrative, and climate- What success didn’t fix and what still keeps him up at nightThis isn’t a highlight reel. It’s the part of the story most people skip: the doubts, dead ends, and decisions that shape the work we eventually see.🎧 Listen / Watch The Messy MiddleNew episodes drop the first Monday of every month.Subscribe: youtube.com/@zakiroseFollow the show on IG: @therealmessymiddle#TheMessyMiddle #TedGivens #Architecture #DesignPodcast #ClimateDesign #KineticArchitecture #CreativeProcess

  10. 11/03/2025

    How Hitting Rock Bottom Gave Eddie Francis His Life Back | The Messy Middle

    Eddie Francis built his career behind the mic, from local radio to Apple Music, but success came with its own shadows.In this episode, Eddie and Wael Abou-Zaki talk about the highs that look perfect from the outside and the lows that force you to start over. They unpack the moments that tested everything: walking away from comfort, facing addiction, finding clarity in recovery, and learning that connection only happens when you show up as your truest self. This conversation isn’t about headlines or hype, it’s about the process that shapes the person behind the work. Because the messy middle isn’t where we lose ourselves; it’s where we find who we’re becoming. 🎬 Watch full version and all cut downs on Youtube @ZakiRose🎧 Follow The Messy Middle for new episodes on the first Monday of every month.

  11. 10/16/2025

    The Moments That Make Us - Julie Pilat from Local radio to Beats, Apple & Building at FYI

    When we first launched this series as PERSPECTIVE, our goal was simple: create space for meaningful conversations about the process behind success; the journey > outcome philosophy. Now, in the most fitting twist possible, the series has evolved into The Messy Middle.Pun intended.We’re living in the creative uncertainty we talk about, pivoting, experimenting, and building in public. It’s imperfect, but it’s honest. In this episode, Julie Pilat, whose career has spanned radio, Beats by Dre, Apple Music, and now the creative-tech frontier at FYI with will.i.am shares what it really takes to evolve without losing your integrity. Julie’s story is one of reinvention, resilience, and relentless curiosity. She talks with Wael Abou-Zaki about the transition from music and media to tech, how to navigate moments of doubt, and why the truth always has to come first. 🎬 Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/9WPEiwRP2jI🎧 Listen on Spotify & all major platforms The Messy Middle is where the journey matters most.

  12. 10/16/2025

    Finding Yourself by Creating Value for Others | Music Exec to Influencers Agency

    We launched this series as PERSPECTIVE, a cinematic interview series built to explore the process, pivots, and purpose behind creativity and growth. But as the journey unfolded, something unexpected happened: the series itself stepped into its own messy middle. So we’re embracing it. From here forward, PERSPECTIVE becomes The Messy Middle because we’re living in the very thing we’re talking about: the uncertainty, iteration, and creativity that come with building something in real time. In this premiere episode, Zach Katz—former BMG President and now a leading entrepreneur and manager to some of today’s biggest streamers and creators. He sat down with Wael Abou-Zaki to unpack reinvention, curiosity, and the evolution of creative leadership. Zach shares what he’s learned from navigating the music industry’s transformation, the shift from traditional entertainment to digital creators, and how true success comes from constantly creating value for others. 🎧 Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/bsitfb1mGIs🎙 Now streaming on Spotify & Youtube The Messy Middle is where the journey matters most.

  • 12 Episodes

About

The Messy Middle is a cinematic conversation series by Wael Abou-Zaki exploring the unseen process behind creativity, leadership, and purpose. Each episode goes beyond the results to uncover the messy middle. We unpack the doubts, pivots, and breakthroughs that shape who we are and how we grow. Because nobody skips the messy middle. It’s where the story truly lives. 🎙 New episodes are live on the first Monday of each Month on YouTube and Spotify.

Information

  • Creator
    Wael "L" Abou-Zaki
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    12
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Wael "L" Abou-Zaki
  • Show Website
    The Messy Middle