The Messy Reformation

Jason Ruis
  • 5.0 (39)
  • RELIGION & SPIRITUALITY
  • UPDATED WEEKLY

We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.

  1. 5D AGO

    Episode Replay: Why Reformation Is Always a Return, Never an Evolution — Lee Christoffels

    Lee Christoffels was ordained in the Christian Reformed Church in 1970. He has been preaching ever since — in Worthington, Minnesota, where his congregation has held services in four languages and watched the community around it change week by week; in Edgerton, where he now serves part-time in retirement; and in pulpits across the region whenever someone needs a preacher on a Sunday morning. Fifty-two years in, he still loves it. This episode is a conversation with a man who has seen everything the CRC has been through since the 1970s and has something clear to say about what holds. Lee traces the drift that has shaped the denomination's current crisis back to a single question: what is Scripture, and does it have final authority? That question surfaced seriously in the 70s, when debates over biblical infallibility began to fracture the clarity the CRC had inherited. From there, Lee argues, the line runs directly through the battles over women in office in the 90s to the tensions surrounding Synod 2022. The problems were never sudden. They were the slow consequence of decisions made decades earlier, each one loosening the anchor a little further. The conversation turns on one of the most misused phrases in contemporary church life: semper reformanda — always reforming. Lee insists the historic qualifier was never optional. Always reforming according to the word of God. Reformation is not evolution. It is not the church adjusting to its cultural moment. It is the church being called back — daily, personally, institutionally — to what Scripture actually says and what the church of the ages has always confessed. As Jason points out, the original Reformers did not see themselves as innovators. They quoted Augustine and Irenaeus and said: we are standing where the church has always stood. It was Rome that moved. That same logic applies now. The episode ends where every episode ends: this is Christ's church and he bought it with his blood. Wolves will come. Keep a close watch on your life and on your doctrine. Preach the word in season and out of season. Lee Christoffels has been doing exactly that for 52 years. It is worth hearing from someone who has stayed the course that long. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro 2:08 — Lee's background: 52 years in ministry, Worthington CRC, family 4:20 — Multi-cultural ministry: 30 languages, four-language worship services 6:33 — Joys of ministry: seeing people grow in faith over decades 8:29 — The case for long pastorates; Piper, Begg, and leavening a congregation 11:48 — The CRC in the 1970s: Scripture authority questioned, infallibility debates 14:11 — Women in office and the fractures of the 90s; confessional subscription 16:01 — Two competing visions of what "reformed" means post-Synod 2022 17:20 — Semper reformanda: what "always reforming" has always meant 19:11 — Willy: the dividing line between the two groups 19:47 — Confessional unity as the CRC's real strength; Edmund Clowney 21:29 — "Doctrine unites": pushing back on a progressive slogan 21:54 — The Reformation's claim: "they left, we stayed" 23:26 — The only way to be reformed is to be Catholic (small c) 24:29 — Reform vs. evolution: prone to wander, always called back 25:44 — John 3: something in every believer's heart still hates the light 27:08 — Scripture authority as the primary issue facing the church today 28:48 — The Catechism and the fullness of Scripture 29:01 — The unity of Old and New Testaments; the case for Old Testament preaching 31:47 — Catherine Vos's Child Story Bible as a model of redemptive-historical discipleship 34:27 — Expositional preaching and where authority lives in the pulpit Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

    37 min

  2. APR 13

    Episode 268: Classes Need a Plan for Dying and Planting Churches in the CRC — Denominational Structure Roundtable (Part 2)

    If episode 267 made the case that the CRC has a congregational health crisis, episode 268 asks why the structures meant to address it aren't functioning. The answer, according to Matt Haan, is simple: classes have never had a plan. Not a real one. They were formed by proximity, not strategy, and the denomination has never seriously addressed that. What would it look like to treat a classis as a territory — a defined patch of the kingdom — responsible for every church and every unchurched community within it? Matt introduces the CRC belt of the Bible: 80 percent of the denomination falls within 100 miles of I-90, north or south. Everything outside that corridor is harder. Dan DeGraff adds the legacy dimension — it's not stubbornness keeping struggling churches together, it's that the building is woven into people's faith stories. But he also names what he learned at a recent candidacy gathering in Phoenix: some classes have figured this out, and the ones that haven't need to be challenged, not coddled. Meanwhile, Jason drops the news that Classes Wisconsin is bringing an overture to Synod 2026: before the CRC plants more churches, it needs to answer a basic question — what is a church? Matt closes with the line that cuts deepest: one church in Classis Iakota had more baptisms than 11 classes combined. That's not boasting — it's a challenge. The gospel is still alive. God can do amazing things when people are willing. The question is whether the denomination is willing to do the unglamorous work of supporting the outposts of the kingdom — not just the exciting new plants, but the struggling congregations that need someone to walk with them and help them figure out what comes next. Timestamps: 0:00 — Willie: swallowing pride and drawing from covenant community (rewind) 0:38 — Matt: classes need to have a plan 1:00 — The history of how classes formed — there was no plan 2:00 — The CRC belt of the Bible: 80% within 100 miles of I-90 3:00 — A full church life cycle roadmap: plant → emerging → revitalization → close 5:00 — Dan: legacy feelings — "This is the church that raised me" 6:00 — Hard conversations are actual leadership — without them, people spin their wheels 9:00 — Matt: the smaller the place, the bigger the pride 11:00 — The CRC's post-WWII church landscape and why it's changing 13:00 — Jason: the 40-year mark when churches hit crisis 14:00 — Dan: the last 40 years of the CRC — women in office, human sexuality, COVID 15:00 — COVID and the sexuality debate stalled classes renewal work 16:00 — What classes are planting churches? Iakota's four church plants 17:00 — Funding nearly half of pastor salaries — and the limits of classis capacity 20:00 — If the OPC is already there, support them — don't compete 21:00 — Let's plant even if it never gets above 70 members 22:00 — classes are territories for us to care about 24:00 — We have locations and willing churches — we just don't have planters 25:00 — The pastor shortage makes it hard to plant churches 29:00 — Classes Wisconsin overture: define what a church is before planting more 30:00 — Dan: the Quorum Deo conference and what good missionaries look like 32:00 — Matt: one church in Iakota, more baptisms than 11 classes combined 34:00 — Jason closes: "I could keep yapping, but we'll end it on that" Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

    37 min

  3. APR 6

    Episode 267: The Numbers Nobody Wants to Talk About in the CRC — Denominational Structure Roundtable (Part 1)

    The CRC's vacancy crisis isn't evenly distributed. While Thrive reports 146 vacant pulpits, statistician Dan DeGraff's independent tracking puts the real number between 107 and 128 — and the worst of it is concentrated in Canada, where one in four churches currently has no pastor. Host Jason Ruis and co-host Willy Krahnke are joined by Dan DeGraff and Matt Haan for the first of two roundtable episodes on a conversation the denomination has been avoiding: what actually happens to the churches nobody's talking about? What follows Dan's data is a taxonomy of hard decisions. Jason lays out three distinct buckets — plant, revitalize, and replant/close — and argues that conflating them has cost the CRC real opportunities. Matt reframes what "church planting" could mean: not just new locations, but paid-off buildings with dwindling congregations that need a pastor and a fresh mission. The conversation turns to emerging status, a provision in the church order that should apply to the estimated 206 CRC churches under 45 members — but almost never does. A third of U.S. churches are already under 45 or officially emerging. The tool is already there. Most congregations aren't using it. The episode ends with pastoral realism. Closing a church isn't failure — sometimes it's the Lord calling a body to lay something down and do something new. But getting there requires more than a decision: it requires swallowing pride, drawing on the covenant community, and letting classies step in before it's too late. This roundtable starts the conversation that needs to happen. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro: why this roundtable exists 1:00 — Dan: how he tracks vacancy data and why it differs from Thrive's numbers 3:00 — The breakdown: 107–128 vacancies across the CRC 5:00 — One in four Canadian churches has no pastor 6:00 — The real crisis: Canada's 23–26% vacancy rate 7:00 — Matt: pastor life cycles and what they look like in a classis 8:00 — Reframing "church planting" to include paid-off buildings with no pastor 9:00 — Jason: three buckets — plant, revitalize, and replant/close 12:00 — Willie: how long should a church sit at low numbers before changing status? 13:00 — Jason: a 40-member church and what the transitional minister found 15:00 — Delaying death: when revitalization efforts make things worse 16:00 — Church visitation, classis involvement, and hard conversations 18:00 — Rural far-flung churches and inter-denominational soft agreements 19:00 — Willie: framing closure as calling, not failure 20:00 — Jason: emerging status and the 45-member threshold in church order 21:00 — 206 churches under 45 — and almost none are in emerging status 23:00 — Dan: a third of U.S. churches are under 45 or officially emerging 24:00 — Matt: plant → emerging → established → revitalization → close 27:00 — "Church planting is sexy" — and revitalization isn't 28:00 — Jason: why the CRC should focus on church planting AND renewal 31:00 — Willie: swallowing pride and drawing from your covenant community Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

    35 min

  4. MAR 30

    Episode 266: If We Are Faithful Now, We Can Trust the Word — Harry Frielink (Part 2)

    Before Harry Frielink was a pastor, he was a camp counselor, shaped by a man named Matthew Kingswood who asked a deceptively simple question every summer before the kids arrived: are you in the word with people? Not are you ready with your theology. Are you in the word — actually, with actual people? That question has never left Harry. This episode follows him through the harder parts of pastoral ministry: the isolation, the marriage under pressure, the theological controversies that arrived at Synod and in his living room, and ultimately to his closing word — a phrase that came from a mentor ten years into his ministry, repeated twice for emphasis: blow on the live embers. Harry is candid about pastoral struggles. He references Paul Tripp's Dangerous Calling — the danger of a pastor who lives above or outside the body of Christ rather than in it — and says this is a trap he's actively tried to avoid by building real friendships inside and outside his congregation. On the scripture authority question underlying the CRC's controversies, he says personal experience and story were placed above the word in the human sexuality debates. His read on the Human Sexuality Report goes against the grain of how the debate was framed: he saw not a culture war skirmish but a gospel opportunity — a chance to name the full spectrum of sexual brokenness and ask, how does the gospel address this? That opportunity, he says, is still there. Harry is encouraged by Synods 22 and 23, surprised by the vote totals, and grateful for young pastors speaking with clarity and courage. He sees Classis Toronto beginning to turn its attention toward the Great Commission — revitalization, discipleship, getting ready for people already coming to the doors. His closing encouragement draws on three simple practices: blow on the live embers where the Spirit is moving, be in the word yourself, and pray — privately, faithfully, at a level you'd be glad to lead publicly. You'll never preach at a level above your own reading. You'll never lead in prayer beyond your own prayer life. And that, he says, is grounding enough. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro (cont'd from Episode 265: preaching, prayer, pastoral care) 0:45 — Who are your inspirations? 2:40 — Matthew Kingswood: camp ministry and the question that shaped Harry 3:46 — Kent Hughes's Disciplines of a Godly Man; men's group on Saturdays 5:39 — Biggest pastoral struggles: isolation, marriage, time demands 10:23 — Scripture authority as the underlying issue in CRC controversies 12:30 — Human sexuality as a gospel opportunity, not a culture war skirmish 14:23 — Synod involvement: delegate in 2010 and 2012 19:13 — Synods 22 and 23: surprised by the margins, grateful for the direction 21:13 — The third mark of the church: discipline is broader than hot-button issues 26:11 — Paul VanderKlay at Synod 25: a new day in CRC leadership 28:29 — Closing: Blow on the live embers Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

    34 min

  5. MAR 23

    Episode 265: The Church Was the Training Ground — Harry Frielink (Part 1)

    Harry Frielink has served the same classis for thirteen years while the denomination around him transformed. He came up through RTS Charlotte and Calvin Seminary, took a call in southwestern Ontario, and eventually settled in Barrie — an hour north of Toronto — where he's now been pastor for over a decade. What he's observed from that vantage point is not a smooth doctrinal progression, but a denomination that came to a cliff edge and, surprisingly, stepped back. This episode is about formation and faithfulness: how a pastor gets made, how a classis gets tested, and what you learn when the train wreck finally happens. Harry traces his own formation — from the pastoral notes Douglas Kelly wrote in the margins of his syllabi at RTS, to the practical wisdom that said he'd always be an outsider if he didn't go to Calvin, to his conviction that the church, not the seminary, is the real training ground. In Classis Toronto, he watched classical oversight quietly fade — no regular church visits, little deliberative work — until the weight of disaffiliation made it unavoidable. He describes going with another pastor to visit Meadowvale CRC before things came to a head: not to score points, but to ask the actual questions. Where do you stand on scripture? On the historicity of the fall? On the atonement? They were honest. And that honesty named what actually divided them. Harry has watched Classis Toronto shrink from 8,000 members to 2,000 since 2005. He says that soberly, not triumphantly. What encourages him now is not that the fight is over but that people are finally looking forward — toward evangelism, church revitalization, the slow work of discipleship. He's also learned something true about himself: he is not a spiritual Superman. The council leads. Elders teach. Deacons serve. The pastor equips. That's not a retreat from ministry — it's a Reformed ecclesiology, practiced honestly, finally beginning to bear fruit. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro 0:06 — Harry's background: Guelph, Ontario; teaching before ministry; family life 1:50 — RTS Charlotte: Douglas Kelly, Bob Carroll, pastoral formation 4:22 — Decision to go to Calvin; spending time in Grand Rapids 6:51 — Classis Toronto involvement 8:30 — Challenges in Classis Toronto: theological engagement behind the controversies 10:22 — The October 2025 disaffiliation crisis; being yelled at from the chair 12:53 — Handling disaffiliations: heavy, conflicted, not celebratory 15:38 — Visiting Meadowvale CRC: naming what actually divides 19:42 — What Harry has come to know about the CRC: confessions and scripture 20:55 — The denomination's confessional turn — surprised and grateful 21:55 — What Harry has come to know about himself: not a spiritual Superman 25:31 — Pastoral strengths: preaching, catechism, discipleship classes Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

    31 min

  6. MAR 16

    Episode 264: I've Never Fixed Anyone — Shaun Furniss (Part 2)

    If you walk into a pastoral care situation knowing exactly how to fix it, you will make it worse. That's where Part 2 begins—with Jason and Shaun naming the pride that destroys pastoral ministry the same way it destroyed King Saul. From there, the conversation turns to some of the most honest and practical territory the Messy Reformation has covered: what to do with the overwhelm you can't show the congregant, why your elders are co-shepherds and not a board, and what Ole Hallesby's book on prayer has to say to every pastor who has ever felt crushed by the weight of ministry. The practical advice here is unglamorous and proven. Church doesn't end after the doxology. Get to know your district—not "so-and-so's sister" but her name. Pick two or three people each Sunday and have a real conversation in the narthex. Calvin said it well, and Jason paraphrases it from memory: the care of souls is so overwhelming it can never be done by one man—this is why God gave us a body of elders. The co-pastoring model at Trinity CRC makes this concrete: people want to be fed by the same hand that holds theirs at the bedside, not a specialist they barely recognize. The episode closes with Hallesby's insight that all prayer flows from helplessness—and that prayerlessness is usually a sign you think you've got things under control. Helplessness, rightly understood, doesn't produce fear. It produces courage. And from there, the final from Shaun: "I've never fixed anyone. I've never healed anyone. I've never saved anyone. But by God's grace, I've had a front row seat to what he has done in many people's lives. And that compels us all the more to worship him." Timestamps: 0:00 — The Holy Spirit is the true counselor (rewind from Part 1) 0:35 — If you step in knowing how to fix it, you will make it worse 1:03 — King Saul: pride goes before the fall in all of pastoral ministry 1:28 — As fathers and husbands: reliance on God in every moment 1:45 — Parenting is like being a blind man in a dark cave 3:00 — Valley of the shadows (Psalm 23): don't convey overwhelm to your congregant 3:58 — Where to take pastoral overwhelm: the body of elders 5:14 — Elders as the board you report to vs. the shepherds you link arms with 5:43 — Being a non-anxious presence 6:33 — Why pastors struggle to open up to their elders 8:12 — Practical advice: get to know your districts 8:58 — Church doesn't end after the doxology 10:53 — CCEF and resources for pastoral counseling 12:03 — The co-pastoring model at Trinity CRC: why it works 14:28 — People want to be fed by the same hand that holds theirs at the bedside 16:45 — The temptation to specialize: comes from the business world, not the Bible 18:31 — All discipleship flows from some form of relationship 19:17 — Pointing to Christ, not to yourself: the savior complex in pastoral ministry 20:43 — Twice-a-week suicide notes: the season that broke Jason 21:31 — Lord, this is your church. I'm going to bed. 22:57 — Baptismal promises and the gut-wrenching reality: they were His before they were mine 24:14 — Pastoral ministry is one of the most humbling things 25:03 — One of the most beautiful and sanctifying callings 25:34 — Calvin Seminary internship in the Dominican Republic 26:26 — Ole Hallesby's Prayer: all prayer flows from helplessness 28:20 — God won't give you more than He can handle (the correct version) 30:07 — Final word invitation 31:26 — I've never fixed anyone — but I've had a front row seat Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

    35 min

  7. MAR 9

    Episode 263: The Holy Spirit Is the True Counselor — Shaun Furniss (Part 1)

    Shaun Furniss didn't grow up in the church. A Roman Catholic mass enthralled him at age seven, a confirmation class confused him at twelve, and the Heidelberg Catechism converted him in college. Now he's co-pastor at Trinity CRC in Sparta, Michigan—holding a Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy alongside his MDiv—and he's convinced that most churches have quietly abdicated one of their most important responsibilities: the care of souls. This episode is a candid look at what Christian counseling actually is, why the reflex to "refer it out" is often a failure of pastoral nerve, and what it looks like to do it right. The conversation covers hard ground honestly. Both Jason and Shaun have counseled people through suicide, abuse, and grief—and both have learned the hard way that the biggest mistake pastors make is walking into a crisis ready to solve it. Before any wisdom lands, trust must be built. People don't care what you know until they know that you care. The most powerful diagnostic framework is also the simplest: nearly everyone who comes to a pastor is wrestling with guilt, fear, anger, or loneliness—and the scriptures give us the answers to all four. The episode closes with one of the most important statements about pastoral ministry you'll hear: when you walk into that counseling room, you are not the true counselor. The Holy Spirit is. He has given us his Word as the means of healing, and the pastor is simply the instrument. "I've never fixed anyone, I've never saved anyone, but by the grace of God, he's allowed me to be a part of what he's doing." Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro and Shaun's family, Trinity CRC Sparta, co-pastor model 0:43 — How the 50-50 co-pastoring structure works with Pastor CJ DenDulk 2:40 — Shaun's story: did not grow up in the church 3:04 — Dad drops him at a Roman Catholic mass with a quarter 3:37 — Confirmation class, Philippians, and "I'm reading someone else's mail" 4:28 — College and career Bible study leads to conversion 4:51 — Heidelberg Catechism: the Lord drew me to faith 5:38 — Reformed Theological Seminary: Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy 6:23 — Jason's first pastoral care crisis: suicide attempt five months into youth ministry 7:45 — True Christian counseling is discipleship on a one-on-one basis 9:16 — The church's heartbreaking habit: farming out what it should keep in-house 9:54 — When to bring in outside help (abuse, opposite sex) 13:53 — Often what passes for Christian counseling is humanistic counseling with a prayer at the end 16:52 — The seminary culture: one class on pastoral care and one joke — just refer it out 17:31 — Counseling as worldview formation: who shapes how your congregant sees the world? 19:33 — The biggest misconception: thinking you need to instantly give an answer 21:39 — The four root issues: guilt, fear, anger, or loneliness 23:56 — People don't care what you know until they know that you care 26:57 — The ministry of presence: what a hospice chaplain learns 30:07 — The Holy Spirit is the true counselor — you're simply the instrument Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

    33 min

  8. MAR 2

    Episode 262: The Communication Problem Every Church Has — Roger Sparks & Harv Roosma (Part 2)

    Churches say they want hard conversations. They say they're ready to change. And then the STM arrives. Part 2 of the STM roundtable with Roger Sparks and Harv Roosma moves from the structure of this ministry into the raw material they actually work with: human nature. Forgiven, being sanctified, still human. People talk, Roger says plainly, as long as they sense you're going to agree with them. The real work begins when you don't. The surface issues vary — declining attendance, unaddressed conflict, gender disagreements, councils stretched thin, vision that's gone fuzzy. But underneath almost all of it is the same thing: a trust deficit. When trust breaks down, everything else follows. And Jason, who has watched more church conflict than most as a stated clerk, names the failure mode he's seen destroy congregations: when councils start deciding what to share and what to control, the congregation already knows. Trust, once lost, is very hard to get back. The antidote isn't a program. It's the thing Roger keeps coming back to — talk to each other instead of about each other. Pray for each other, not just about each other. Harv talks about the profound satisfaction of preaching on forgiveness, feeling the pushback from people who aren't sure they want to go there, and watching something break open. Roger talks about the honor of being trusted with someone's pain. Both talk about the same miracle: you walk in as strangers and leave as friends. When Dan asks what settled pastors can do to protect their churches, the answers are disarmingly simple — be honest, go talk to people yourself, don't give anyone a stick to hit you with, love your Bible, love your people, practice humility over flash, keep vision sharp, and address things before they fester. **Timestamps:** - 0:00 — Intro - 1:06 — Harv: trust building before the hard questions - 2:20 — Roger: human nature — people talk as long as they think you'll agree - 2:51 — The goal: not agreement, but understanding - 3:27 — When trust is the core problem - 4:13 — Common issues: communication (Roger) - 5:57 — Harv: declining attendance, gender conflict, leadership gaps, unaddressed issues, vision ambiguity - 8:13 — Jason: communication and trust as the underlying root - 9:11 — How to work through a trust deficit - 10:34 — "Pray for each other, not just about each other" - 11:28 — The joys of STM ministry - 12:40 — Harv: the joy of walking a church through forgiveness - 13:20 — Roger: the honor of being trusted with someone's pain - 14:42 — "You come as strangers, and through the miracle of the gospel, you leave as friends" - 15:36 — What can settled pastors do to protect their churches? - 16:23 — Roger: be honest, go talk to people, love the Bible and love people, humility over flash - 18:31 — Harv: clarify vision, gospel focus, train leaders, address issues - 19:49 — Communication deep dive: council transparency - 22:39 — Jason: when councils control the narrative, trust evaporates - 23:40 — Harv: listening groups and solution thinking - 26:25 — Roger: don't treat STM as a stigma - 27:09 — Harv: we have so much to celebrate; God is doing great things - 28:13 — Jason: if God is calling you to STM, reach out to Roger, Harv, or PCR Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

    32 min
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Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
39 Ratings

About

We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.

Information

  • Creator
    Jason Ruis
  • Years Active
    2020 - 2026
  • Episodes
    282
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Copyright 2022
  • Show Website
    The Messy Reformation

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