The People Contingency | Avoid Staff Turnover in ABA

Holli Clauser
  • 5.0 (2)
  • BUSINESS
  • UPDATED BIWEEKLY

What happens when the people part doesn’t go to plan? This podcast tackles the realities of building, managing, and sustaining people systems—especially in mission-driven fields like autism care, healthcare, and education. We cover recruiting, training, HR systems, psychological safety, and retention. Expect honest conversations about what actually works to hire better, support teams, and lead with purpose—without losing sight of the humans behind the work.

  1. FEB 4

    15 | It’s Not Burnout, It’s Burnover: How Leadership Shapes the Employee Experience with Nate Beers

    In the ABA and IDD space, we often treat staff turnover like a natural disaster—something unavoidable that just happens to us because of the market or the nature of the work. But Nate Beers, BCBA and host of the IDD Leader podcast, argues that retention isn't a roll of the dice; it is a direct reflection of how we support our frontline leaders. With over 20 years of experience, Nate has seen that while we promote people for their clinical excellence, we often leave them stranded when it comes to the actual human business of being a boss. In this episode, Nate challenges the industry to move past the "doomsday" mindset and take radical ownership of the employee experience. He introduces the concept of "Burnover"—a toxic mix of burnout and turnover that occurs when a system prioritizes billable hours over rich social reinforcement. From the "math lesson" he learned in Thailand to the habits of agencies crushing the turnover game, Nate shares a practical framework for winning the hearts of your team and building a culture that people never want to leave. In this conversation, Nate explores: Why supervisors—not the market or the pay rates—are the primary reason staff stay or go.The "cold culture" that happens when reinforcement vanishes and aversives take over.Shifting the paradigm to treat employment as a product that must be delivered excellently every single day.Why the first step to stability is having a leadership team that takes personal ownership of the data.How agencies have achieved exceptionally low turnover through competency-based onboarding and rich feedback loops.A fundamental lesson in motivation, rewards, and clear contingencies.Ideas Worth Sharing "It’s not usually one big change. It’s usually a hundred small changes. And I found that to be true as well when it comes to the issue of turnover, you start to make small changes and they start to pile up on top of each other." - Nate Beers “We're selling the product of jobs. We need our delivery to be awesome so that we get the people that work there become fanatics.” - Nate Beers “If you've won their hearts, everything else will follow just fine. Everything else is going to fall into place because the right kinds of decisions will get made.” - Nate Beers “When a problem has no owner, it doesn't get fixed.” - Nate Beers Resources Mentioned Connect with Nate Beers[Free Tool] Burnout/Burnover AssessmentThe IDD Leader PodcastBooks Recommended by Nate:The 5 Levels of Leadership – John MaxwellThe Five Dysfunctions of a Team – Patrick LencioniBoundaries – Dr. Henry CloudBringing Out the Best in People – Aubrey Daniels Stop fighting workforce challenges. Start outsmarting them. Join us at the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Summit and transform how you lead, staff, and grow your organization.  Register today at https://behaviorlive.com/conferences/abacares2026/home

    49 min

  2. JAN 21

    14 | Retention Is a Systems Outcome: Rethinking Workforce Stability in ABA with Dr. Manny Rodriguez

    Every field has a story about why people leave. In ABA, we often point to burnout, productivity pressure, or not enough “buy-in” from staff. And those things are real. But according to Organizational Behavior Management expert Dr. Manny Rodriguez, they’re rarely the root cause. With over 20 years of experience guiding leaders across Fortune 500 companies, startups, schools, and human service organizations, Manny has seen this pattern repeat itself over and over again. Turnover, disengagement, and leadership fatigue are not personal failures. They are predictable outcomes of poorly designed systems. In this episode, Manny breaks down why organizations keep treating workforce issues like motivation problems instead of design problems, how leadership behavior is shaped by the systems around it, and what it actually looks like to build environments where people can succeed without burning out. Drawing from his work as Director of Strategic Growth at Puzzle Box Academy and his decades in OBM, Manny walks through how small system changes can create meaningful shifts in staff behavior, supervisor capacity, and organizational stability. In this conversation, Manny explores: Why most retention issues are systems problems, not people problemsHow organizational design unintentionally reinforces burnout and avoidanceWhat leaders often misunderstand about motivation and accountabilityWhy overwhelmed supervisors are a signal of system failure, not weaknessHow to identify which behaviors your systems are really reinforcingWhat “making work easier” actually looks like through an OBM lensHow values break down when systems punish ethical or effective behaviorWhy sustainable change starts with redesigning conditions, not demanding more effort Ideas Worth Sharing “A leader is one that spends time with their people and helps them, mentors them, shapes them for growth.” – Dr. Manny Rodriguez “Never underestimate the power of social reinforcement.” – Dr. Manny Rodriguez "If you have a supervisor who doesn't know where those limits are, it's not the supervisor's fault... the organization did something wrong, meaning they did not arm that supervisor with the proper, clear expectations." – Dr. Manny Rodriguez “Any day that goes by, any week that goes by, if you haven't spoken to your staff member, if you haven't spoken to your colleague or to your boss, something's already missed.” – Dr. Manny Rodriguez Resources Mentioned Connect with MannyOBM Applied!Quick Wins!Organizational Behavior Management: A Practitioner’s GuideMeasure of a Leader Stop fighting workforce challenges. Start outsmarting them. Join us at the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Summit and transform how you lead, staff, and grow your organization.  Register today at https://behaviorlive.com/conferences/abacares2026/home

    46 min

  3. JAN 7

    13 | Why People Stay: The Hidden Conditions That Create Workplace Commitment with Joe Mull

    Every generation thinks the one behind it doesn’t want to work. But what if the real issue isn’t work ethic at all? In this episode, leadership researcher, author, and founder of Boss Hero School Joe Mull examines what truly fuels commitment in the workplace—and why turnover, call-offs, and disengagement are almost always symptoms of broken systems, not broken people. Listen in as Joe shares the research behind his “Employalty” framework, the three conditions that must exist for commitment to thrive, and what leaders need to stop doing if they want people to stay, grow, and give their best. In this conversation, Joe breaks down: Why “no one wants to work” is one of the most persistent workplace myths in history.The sociological pattern behind generational blame.The three conditions where commitment naturally forms.How attendance and call-off problems are driven by belief systems (not laziness).The difference between accountability and punishment in behavior change.Why collaboration builds stronger policies than top-down mandates.The two questions that transform organizations into destination workplaces.How language frameworks unlock better retention conversations. Ideas Worth Sharing: “People do a great job when they believe they have a great job.” - Joe Mull“Commitment appears when employees are in their ideal job doing meaningful work for a great boss.” - Joe Mull“If working for you negatively impacts what's most important to them, you've got no shot at retaining that employee.” - Joe Mull Resources mentioned: Boss Hero SchoolBoss Better Now PodcastEmployalty: How to Ignite Commitment and Keep Top Talent in the New Age of Work by Joe MullOther books by Joe: Cure for the Common Leader | No More Team Drama About the Guest Joe Mull is a leadership researcher, speaker, and author focused on building healthier, more committed workplaces. He is the founder of Boss Hero School, creator of the Employalty framework, and host of the Boss Better Now podcast. His work has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and Harvard Business Review. In 2025, he was inducted into the Professional Speakers Hall of Fame—an honor reserved for less than 1% of speakers worldwide. Connect with Joe: Website | LinkedIn Connect with Holli: Website | Linkedin If today’s conversation sparked ideas for how to fix your own people systems, don’t stop here. Follow The People Contingency wherever you listen. And if you know a leader who’s tired of burnout and turnover, share this episode with them. The more of us building retention-first systems, the stronger our field becomes. Stop fighting workforce challenges. Start outsmarting them. Join us at the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Summit and transform how you lead, staff, and grow your organization.  Register today at https://behaviorlive.com/conferences/abacares2026/home

    46 min

  4. 12/24/2025

    12 | How to Build Systems That Actually Develop People (Not Just Manage Them) with Allyson Wharam

    Every field has stories about why people leave. In ABA, we say it's burnout—the emotional weight, the billable hours pressure, the inconsistent pay. And all of that is real. But it's not the whole story. According to BCBA, instructional designer, and founder of Sidekick Learning Allyson Wharam, the root of retention begins long before burnout ever shows up. It begins in the systems that train us, supervise us, and shape whether people feel like analysts or just interventionists. When supervision cracks, everything downstream does too. In this episode, Allyson explores why supervision is the cornerstone of retention, how organizations unintentionally create structural fatigue, and what it takes to build training systems that help people grow with clarity, confidence, and a roadmap they can actually see. In this conversation, Allyson breaks down: Why turnover is often a systems problem, not an individual one.What “structural fatigue” looks like for trainees and new BCBAs.How organizations can standardize without becoming rigid.What curriculum design looks like when it’s built backwards from competence.Why supervisors need tools—not just hours—to do their job well.How to identify a trainee’s true skill level beyond “hours completed.”What great matching looks like between supervisors and student analysts.How specialized roles and job crafting strengthen retention.Why visibility into one’s own data and progress fuels motivation and clarity.How systems communicate value, opportunity, and belonging through what they reinforce. Ideas Worth Sharing: “Behavior analysis should not be this cookie-cutter cookbook approach. If someone is not trained with those really core conceptual foundations, then they do become more of an interventionist versus an analyst.” - Allyson Wharam"The 40-hour training… it's both too much and not enough at the same time." - Allyson Wharam“We can't take things in isolation. We have to look at everything as a function of the system, and then we can be more intentional about how we're making changes so that we can move the organization forward.” - Allyson Wharam Resources mentioned: A Call for Discussion About Scope of Competence in Behavior Analysis - PMCNew Mager Six-Pack by Robert F. MagerDesigning Effective Instruction by Tiemann & Markle (available through Morningside Academy)In the Field: The ABA Podcast Episode 29: Preventing Crisis and Building Culture: Leadership Lessons with Dr. Paul "Paulie" Gavoni About the Guest Allyson Wharam is a Board Certified Behavior Analyst, instructional designer, and the founder of Sidekick Learning, where she designs competency-based supervision and training systems for ABA organizations. She holds a master's degree in Instructional Design & Technology from the University of Virginia and completed her behavior analysis coursework through the Florida Institute of Technology. She is also the host of In the Field, a podcast where she brings honest, practitioner-level conversations about qualit Stop fighting workforce challenges. Start outsmarting them. Join us at the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Summit and transform how you lead, staff, and grow your organization.  Register today at https://behaviorlive.com/conferences/abacares2026/home

    51 min

  5. 12/10/2025

    11 | Attention Management, Culture, & Empowered Productivity with Maura Nevel Thomas

    Most leaders assume their biggest challenge is time—not enough of it, too much to do, and a calendar that never stops filling.  But according to productivity expert and award-winning author Maura Nevel Thomas, time isn’t the problem at all.  It’s distraction.  And the more we try to solve distraction with time-management tools, the further we drift from meaningful, significant results. In this episode, Maura offers a refreshing and deeply human reframing of productivity: focus less on time and more on attention.  In a world of nonstop interruptions, her Empowered Productivity system helps leaders reclaim intention, reduce overwhelm, and build cultures where focus and accountability can actually thrive.  Listen in to learn why time management is outdated, how leaders unintentionally create cultures of distraction, and what it takes to build organizations where people feel empowered, grounded, and capable of meaningful work. In this conversation, Maura breaks down: Why distraction is the real productivity crisis.How constant reactivity conditions teams to stay overwhelmed.The difference between focus and attention management.How unconscious beliefs (like “I must always be available”) quietly derail performance.The surprising way leaders undermine accountability without realizing it.Language shifts that foster ownership and reduce unnecessary interruptions.How culture affects attention, decision-making, and turnover—especially in high-pressure fields.What “don’t work too much” really means and why balance must be clearly defined inside organizations.What leaders should actually look for when interviewing for attention-healthy teams. Ideas Worth Sharing: “Time isn't our problem. What I think is our problem is distractions. And you can't solve a distraction problem with a time solution.” - Maura Nevel Thomas“The antidote to distraction is attention.” - Maura Nevel Thomas“Sometimes the best thing you can do for your work is not work.” - Maura Nevel Thomas Resources mentioned: Productivity AssessmentEmpowered Productivity | Maura ThomasProgress Principle by Teresa Amabile & Steven Kramer Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel KahnemanFocus: The Hidden Driver of Excellence by Daniel Goleman About the Guest Maura Nevel Thomas is an international keynote speaker, trainer, and author specializing in attention management and empowered productivity. Her work has been featured by Google, NASA, the U.S. Army, and hundreds of high-performing organizations navigating the demands of modern work. Maura’s research-driven insights challenge outdated productivity models and offer leaders a practical path toward focus, clarity, and meaningful results. She is the creator of the Empowered Productivity System and author of several bestselling books on attention and workplace well-being. Connect with Maura: Stop fighting workforce challenges. Start outsmarting them. Join us at the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Summit and transform how you lead, staff, and grow your organization.  Register today at https://behaviorlive.com/conferences/abacares2026/home

    42 min

  6. 11/26/2025

    10 | Compassion, Ethics & Mistake-Forward Leadership in ABA with Dr. Tyra Sellers

    Most leaders think solving workforce challenges comes down to data, compliance, or improving systems. But what if the real leverage point is far more human—compassion, ethics, and the courage to have honest conversations? Dr. Tyra Sellers, owner of TP Sellers and one of the most influential voices in modern ABA leadership, challenges us to rethink how we define professionalism, accountability, and decision-making. With over 30 years in ABA service delivery, ethics, supervision, and executive leadership, Tyra brings both clarity and heart to conversations that most leaders avoid. Listen in as she explains how courageous communication and mistake-forward cultures promote organizational success. In this conversation, Tyra breaks down: What compassion actually looks like in practice.How empathic leaders can stay grounded.Why perfectionism paralyzes hiring, supervision, and decision-making.How to protect fairness and reduce bias.What a genuine “blameless” culture sounds like.Why “breaking” new systems on purpose leads to safer, stronger practices.How leaders can recognize a culture where mistakes are safe to share.Ideas Worth Sharing: “Leaders [are] the least important person in the team… You're there to facilitate the success of all of the people around you.” - Dr. Sellers“​​Compassion should be a component and inform everything you do. The same way ethics isn't some separate thing that you do on a Tuesday when something bad happens.” - Dr. Sellers“A mistake isn't a bad thing. A mistake is just a non-optimal outcome... Mistakes are more about learning how we can create systems that are more effective or more efficient or safer." - Dr. SellersResources mentioned: Pass the Big ExamThe New Supervisor’s WorkbookDaily EthicsBuilding and Sustaining Effective RelationshipsRadical Candor by Kim ScottSupercommunicators by Charles DuhiggDifficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, Sheila HeenThe Afro-Minimalist’s Guide to Living with Less by Christine PlattPerformance Diagnostic Checklist - Human Services (PDC-HS)Assessing the efficacy of and preference for positive and corrective feedback - PubMedA further investigation regarding the efficacy of and preference for positive Dr. Tyra Sellers is a behavior analyst and the owner of TP Sellers, LLC. She has over 30 years of experience working in the profession, and has held positions as an Assistant Professor at Utah State University, Director o Stop fighting workforce challenges. Start outsmarting them. Join us at the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Summit and transform how you lead, staff, and grow your organization.  Register today at https://behaviorlive.com/conferences/abacares2026/home

    56 min

  7. 11/12/2025

    9 | Language, Integrity & Leadership: Rethinking Burnout from the Inside Out with Scott Herbst

    Most leaders assume burnout comes from heavy workloads, unrealistic targets, or a lack of self-care. But what if the real driver is something far more foundational — the way we relate to ourselves, our language, and even our sense of time? Scott Herbst, founder of SixFlex Training & Consulting, offers a refreshing and deeply human take.  He helps leaders see burnout not as a symptom of “too much to do,” but as a breakdown in integrity, alignment, and the stories we tell ourselves about work. Listen in as he explains how language shapes our experience, why integrity has nothing to do with morality, and how leaders can rebuild clarity and presence before burnout ever takes hold. In this conversation, Scott breaks down: Why we experience burnout when we treat ourselves like objects to manage.How language shapes reality—not just describes it.The question that gets past complaints to what you truly care about.Why teams drift and need ongoing realignment.How integrity gets hijacked by excuses and justifications.Why leaders must own their broken agreements first.What interview questions reveal real leadership capacity.How to define shared values without virtue signaling. Ideas Worth Sharing: “One thing that I think leads to burnout is that there is a misunderstanding of what it is to be a human being.” - Scott Herbst“Your language is this weird behavior that shapes how you see the world, how you see other people, how you see yourself.” - Scott Herbst“Ask questions about where people have provided leadership. … ‘Tell me about a place where you weren't recognized as leadership.’ … ‘What was that like?’ And you'll start to see how they answer… how they see leadership.” - Scott Herbst Resources mentioned: SixFlex TrainingThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnGödel, Escher, Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas R. HofstadterThe Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck About the Guest Scott Herbst is the founder and president of SixFlex Training & Consulting, where he provides behaviorally based coaching and training in leadership and communication. Through his practical and research-informed approach, Scott helps individuals and teams uncover what truly matters, restore alignment, and communicate with clarity. Participants in his programs consistently report breakthrough results not only in their work, but across every area of life. Connect with Scott: LinkedIn | SixFlex Training | Podcast Connect with Holli: Website | Linkedin Stop fighting workforce challenges. Start outsmarting them. Join us at the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Summit and transform how you lead, staff, and grow your organization.  Register today at https://behaviorlive.com/conferences/abacares2026/home

    50 min

  8. 10/29/2025

    8 | You Don’t Get a Union—You Earn One: How Approachable Leadership Closes the Trust Gap with Phillip Wilson

    When union whispers start circulating among your staff, most leaders panic.  They tighten policies, hold mandatory meetings, or double down on compliance. Phillip Wilson, president of the Labor Relations Institute and founder of Approachable Leadership, invites us to ask a better question: What broke before the whispers began? With decades of labor relations expertise, Phil breaks down how the unions employees seek are almost always symptoms of leadership they don't trust.  Listen in as he explains the power distance gap, the difference between compliant and committed teams, and why the best union avoidance strategy is building a workplace people never want to leave. You'll discover how vulnerability, relationships, and the hero assumption change retention from the inside out. In this conversation, Phil breaks down: The real reason employees start union conversations.How approachability reduces turnover intentions by 78%.Why employees still fear leaders who say, “My door is always open.”What young or untrained supervisors get wrong about leadership.Why leaders must stop promoting top performers without people skills.The difference between employee relations and employee relationships.How theory X mindsets create compliant teams, while “hero assumptions” create committed ones. Ideas Worth Sharing: “If you view your leader as approachable, you have 78% lower turnover intention than someone who rates their leader as unapproachable.” - Phillip Wilson“No one wakes up thinking they're the villain of the story.” - Phillip Wilson“The way you don't have a union is by doing a good job of running your ship. And that's not just a union avoidance strategy. That's how you take great care of your guests. That's how you take great care of your team.” - Phillip Wilson Resources mentioned: Traction by Gino WickmanRocket Fuel by Gino Wickman & Mark C. WintersThe Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick LencioniThe Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay StanierThe Leader-Shift Playbook by Phillip WilsonAll Books by Phillip WilsonEOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System) About the Guest Phillip Wilson is the president of the Labor Relations Institute (LRI) and founder of Approachable Leadership. He is the author of multiple leadership books, including The Approachability Playbook, Left of Boom, and his newest release, The Leader-Shift Playbook. Phil has been featured in The New York Times, Forbes, MSNBC, and Fox Business, and has testified before Congress as an expert on labor relations and workplace transparency. Through his research-backed approach to closing the power distance gap, Phil has helped organizations across industries create cultures where employees feel valued, heard, and committed long Stop fighting workforce challenges. Start outsmarting them. Join us at the ABA C.A.R.E.S. Summit and transform how you lead, staff, and grow your organization.  Register today at https://behaviorlive.com/conferences/abacares2026/home

    36 min
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About

What happens when the people part doesn’t go to plan? This podcast tackles the realities of building, managing, and sustaining people systems—especially in mission-driven fields like autism care, healthcare, and education. We cover recruiting, training, HR systems, psychological safety, and retention. Expect honest conversations about what actually works to hire better, support teams, and lead with purpose—without losing sight of the humans behind the work.

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