Snafu w/ Robin Zander

Robin P. Zander
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Welcome to Snafu, a podcast about sales, persuasion, and work. Amidst all the change going on in the world today, "durable" skills are often the most resilient. Snafu is a podcast for entrepreneurs, freelancers, and ambitious professionals who need to sell – but aren't quite comfortable yet. Robin Zander has spent more than 20 years tackling things he doesn't know how to do. From starting a restaurant in three weeks without any prior restaurant experience to performing as a self-taught acrobat with the San Francisco Opera, Robin has built his life and career around learning new things. But growth isn't all upside. Trying new things comes with lots of failures. On Snafu, Robin sits down with authors and entrepreneurs to talk about a more human approach to sales, persuasion, and work.

  1. 2D AGO

    How to Sell Yourself – A Workshop

    Robin Zander hosted a Snafu webinar for the Sidebar community on non-sales selling—think self-promotion for career transitions, freelancers, entrepreneurs, and product people. The goal: learn to "sell yourself" without the ick factor.   Participants shared fears: follow-ups feel intimidating, sales feels slimy, and success seems like a numbers game. Robin reframed it: selling is really about enrollment—being a chief evangelist for your work, not begging for attention.   Drawing on stories from his childhood pumpkin patch, his time as a personal trainer (where desperation lost him clients), and opening Robin's Cafe in San Francisco (raising $40k, serving multiple stakeholders, training staff with Danny Meyer's principles), he showed the difference between selling from need vs. service. Long-term success comes from genuine connection, curiosity, optimism, and passion.   Attendees explored their "authentic attitude" and reflected on times self-promotion felt good versus slimy. Exercises included mapping all the people who benefit from your work—employees, customers, managers, mentees, community—and practicing generosity in selling (a "Miracle on 34th Street" mindset: help customers even if it means sending them elsewhere).   In Q&A, Robin tackled: Asking for promotions as modeling for others, especially women and minorities Persistence in follow-ups (yes, emailing Mark Benioff 53 times counts) Relationship-based enterprise selling Avoiding fear-based AI marketing by knowing who you serve and what problem you solve Recommended reading: Setting the Table (Danny Meyer), Unreasonable Hospitality (Will Guidara), The New Strategic Selling.   Robin also shared upcoming Snafu conference details (March 5, Oakland Museum of California) and reminded everyone: Snafu = situation normal; all f****d up. 00:00 Start 01:06 Audience Fears About Selling Robin Zander welcomes 93 participants to the webinar Notes the session is interactive with exercises planned Encourages participants to drop questions in chat or interrupt him Last 15–20 minutes reserved for questions Robin introduces himself briefly Focuses on storytelling as a tool for self-promotion Shares experience as a community builder Runs a conference called Responsive since 2016 (not Snafu) Tools, structures, and company cultures for resilient organizations Two-day event each September on the future of work Focus on building resilience in organizations Observations on rapid change Technology and work-life changes happening at a fast pace Questions about resilience in individuals Traits needed in careers, personal relationships, professional relationships Ability to stay resilient through change Robin frames his expertise Emphasizes his strength in asking questions and fostering honest conversations Labels himself a reluctant salesperson Not the world's leading expert on self-promotion or selling Key lessons from research and interviews Two buckets matter in business and life: Example: Sidebar community forming coalitions for learning and action Operational excellence: being competent and at least as good as others Promotion/enrollment/sales: standing up, saying what you want, building coalitions Started interviewing people about influence and persuasion Started a weekly newsletter called Snafu Written by hand, not AI Shares lessons from his life and others about self-promotion and resilience Focus on courage to take action: raising hand, offering something valuable Core characteristics of self-promotion and selling yourself Connecting with others: art of connection Courage to ask: inspired by Amanda Palmer's TED Talk and book The Art of Asking Opposes traditional "always be closing" sales mentality Advocates for simply asking for what you want Current work mostly involves storytelling for large companies Clients include Supersonic, Airbnb, Zappos, and others 12:25 Service as the Core Principle Robin introduces the concept of storytelling for self-promotion Stories used to: Get promotions Build coalitions Propel career or organizational growth Emphasizes turning personal, career, or company stories into "commercials" Focus of today's talk: self-promotion with impact Core principle: service Showing up from a place of helping others Through helping others, also helping oneself Distinguishes between sleazy salespeople and effective self-promoters Childhood anecdote: Robin's pumpkin patch Tended plants all summer, learned responsibility and care Harvested pumpkins and sold them using a small red tin box labeled "money" Ran "Robin's Pumpkin Patch" for five to seven years At age five, father had him plant pumpkin seeds Engaged neighborhood kids for fun, collaborative promotion Explained product (pumpkins) enthusiastically to potential buyers Used scarecrow costumes and creative gestures to attract attention Lessons learned from pumpkin patch: Authentic enthusiasm creates value Helping people do what they were already inclined to do Early experience of earning and serving simultaneously Self-promotion is most effective when it's service-driven, not manipulative Applying childhood lesson to career and business Asking for a raise Persuading companies to choose one service over another Promoting oneself or others (e.g., Evan, web developer) Key principle: approach self-promotion from delight and service, not need or fear Authentic enthusiasm as foundation for: Interactive exercise for participants Not influenced by sleep deprivation or stress Could be inspired by childhood or adult experiences Opposite of fear; personal and unique for each participant Question posed: what is your authentic attitude when self-promoting? Examples shared from participants: Curiosity Passion Inspiration Service to others Observation Possibility Insight Value Helping others Creativity Belief in serendipity Optimism Key takeaway from exercise and story Promoting from delight, enthusiasm, and service Promoting from need or fear Two versions of self-promotion: Effective self-promotion aligns with authenticity and enthusiasm, creating value for others while advancing oneself 18:36 Gym Job and Needy Selling Robin shares the next story and sets up the next exercise Gym culture is sales-heavy Initial motivation: love of fitness, desire to help people Quickly realizes environment incentivizes personal trainers to sell aggressively Timeframe: ~20 years later, at age 20, moved to San Francisco First post-college job: personal trainer in gyms Early experience at gyms Key lesson from early failure Selling from need feels gross Promoting oneself from fear or desperation leads to poor results Recognizes similarity to unwanted sales calls received personally First authentic success in self-promotion Worked at Petro and World's Gym in San Francisco, Pilates instructor Owner confronted Robin after two weeks: no clients, potential clients being lost to others Threatened termination by Friday if no clients acquired Robin froze under pressure, approached clients but with needy, desperate energy Outcome: fired by Friday, left gym Encounters man in pain on Valencia Street, offers help as personal trainer Approach comes from genuine care, desire to serve Leads to three-year working relationship, consistent sessions, good income Next client: world-famous photographer Michael Light at UCSF swimming pool Client comes from natural connection, not pushy salesmanship Dichotomy observed: Pushy, need-based self-promotion → freeze, poor results Service-oriented self-promotion → natural connections, sustained relationships Exercise for participants Prompt: identify two moments: One time self-promoting felt slimy → what were you doing? One time self-promoting felt good → what were you doing differently? Two-minute reflection / chat participation Participant reflections/examples Slimy examples: Interviewing for a job during layoffs, giving desperate energy Selling P&L at a hyperscaler Selling computers and printers in UK post-college Sales emails getting ghosted Feeling inauthentic or performative, taking advantage of someone Good examples: Offering services out of care and love rather than ROI Showing impact of work to junior child Knowing services add real value and solve a challenge Being clear on what the other person needs Key takeaway Self-promotion feels different depending on intent and knowledge Slimy → desperate, inauthentic, unclear value to recipient Authentic → service-driven, clear value, connection-focused Effective self-promotion combines knowing your value and serving others, not just pushing for personal gain 25:35 Miracle on 34th Street Lesson Feeling good in self-promotion comes from genuinely helping, solving problems, and sharing information Santa Claus hired at Macy's to hold kids and give candy canes, but real goal: persuade parents to buy from Macy's Santa instead sends parents to competitor to truly serve them Macy's manager initially furious Outcome: customers feel genuinely served, return praising Macy's, become loyal fans Robin references Miracle on 34th Street (original version) Key insight: providing real value, even if it benefits someone else, eventually returns value to you "Put enough bread across the water, eventually good things come back" Participant reflections Slimy: knowing audience expects judgment, catering to them for approval Good: giving the gift of knowledge, providing service freely Takea

    1 hr

  2. FEB 18

    Your Best Meeting Ever with Rebecca Hinds, PhD

    In this episode, I'm joined by Rebecca Hinds — organizational behavior expert and founder of the Work AI Institute at Glean — for a practical conversation about why meetings deteriorate over time and how to redesign them. Rebecca argues that bad meetings aren't a people problem — they're a systems problem. Without intentional design, meetings default to ego, status signaling, conflict avoidance, and performative participation. Over time, low-value meetings become normalized instead of fixed. Drawing on her research at Stanford University and her leadership of the Work Innovation Lab at Asana, she shares frameworks from her new book, Your Best Meeting Ever, including: The four legitimate purposes of a meeting: decide, discuss, debate, or develop The CEO test for when synchronous time is truly required How to codify shared meeting standards Why leaders must explicitly give permission to leave low-value meetings We also explore leadership, motivation, and the myth that kindness and high standards are opposites. Rebecca explains why effective leaders diagnose what drives each individual — encouragement for some, direct challenge for others — and design environments that support both performance and belonging. Finally, we talk about AI and the future of work. Tools amplify existing culture: strong systems improve, broken systems break faster. Organizations that redesign how work happens — not just what tools they use — will have the advantage. If you want to run better meetings, lead with more clarity, and rethink how collaboration actually happens, this episode is for you. You can find Your Best Meeting Ever at major bookstores and learn more at rebeccahinds.com.  00:00 Start 00:27 Why Meetings Get Worse Over Time Robin references Good Omens and the character Crowley, who designs the M25 freeway to intentionally create frustration and misery. They use this metaphor to illustrate how systems can be designed in ways that amplify dysfunction, whether intentionally or accidentally. The idea is that once dysfunctional systems become normalized, people stop questioning them. They also discuss Cory Doctorow's concept of enshittification, where platforms and systems gradually decline as organizational priorities override user experience. Rebecca connects this pattern directly to meetings, arguing that without intentional design, meetings default to chaos and energy drain. Over time, poorly designed meetings become accepted as inevitable rather than treated as solvable design problems. Rebecca references the Simple Sabotage Field Manual created by the Office of Strategic Services during World War II. The manual advised citizens in occupied territories on how to subtly undermine organizations from within. Many of the suggested tactics involved meetings, including encouraging long speeches, focusing on irrelevant details, and sending decisions to unnecessary committees. The irony is that these sabotage techniques closely resemble common behaviors in modern corporate meetings. Rebecca argues that if meetings were designed from scratch today, without legacy habits and inherited norms, they would likely look radically different. She explains that meetings persist in their dysfunctional form because they amplify deeply human tendencies like ego, status signaling, and conflict avoidance. Rebecca traces her interest in teamwork back to her experience as a competitive swimmer in Toronto. Although swimming appears to be an individual sport, she explains that success is heavily dependent on team structure and shared preparation. Being recruited to swim at Stanford exposed her to an elite, team-first environment that reshaped how she thought about performance. She became fascinated by how a group can become greater than the sum of its parts when the right cultural conditions are present. This experience sparked her long-term curiosity about why organizations struggle to replicate the kind of cohesion often seen in sports. At Stanford, Coach Lee Mauer emphasized that emotional wellbeing and performance were deeply connected. The team included world record holders and Olympians, and the performance standards were extremely high. Despite the intensity, the culture prioritized connection and belonging. Rituals like informal story time around the hot tub helped teammates build relationships beyond performance metrics. Rebecca internalized the lesson that elite performance and strong culture are not opposing forces. She saw firsthand that intensity and warmth can coexist, and that psychological safety can actually reinforce high standards rather than weaken them. Later in her career at Asana, Rebecca encountered the company value of rejecting false trade-offs. This reinforced a lesson she had first learned in swimming, which is that many perceived either-or tensions are not actually unavoidable. She argues that organizations often assume they must choose between performance and happiness, or between kindness and accountability. In her experience, these are false binaries that can be resolved through better design and clearer expectations. She emphasizes that motivated and engaged employees tend to produce higher quality work, making culture a strategic advantage rather than a distraction. Kindness versus ruthlessness in leadership Robin raises the contrast between harsh, fear-based leadership styles and more relational, positive leadership approaches. Both styles have produced winning teams, which raises the question of whether success comes because of the leadership style or despite it. Rebecca argues that resilience and accountability are essential, regardless of tone. She stresses that kindness alone is not sufficient for high performance, but neither is harshness inherently superior. Effective leadership requires understanding what motivates each individual, since some people thrive on encouragement while others crave direct challenge. Rebecca personally identifies with wanting to be pushed and appreciates clarity when her work falls short of expectations. She concludes that the most effective leaders diagnose motivation carefully and design environments that maximize both growth and performance. 08:51 Building the Book-Launch Team: Mentors, Agents, and Choosing the Right Publisher Robin asks Rebecca about the size and structure of the team she assembled to execute the launch successfully. He is especially curious about what the team actually looked like in practice and how coordinated the effort needed to be. He also asks about the meeting cadence and work cadence required to bring a book launch to life at that level. The framing highlights that writing the book is only one phase, while launching it is an entirely different operational challenge. Rebecca explains that the process felt much more organic than it might appear from the outside. She admits that at the beginning, she underestimated the full scope of what a book launch entails. Her original motivation was simple: she believed she had a valuable perspective, wanted to help people, and loved writing. As she progressed deeper into the publishing process, she realized that writing the manuscript was only one piece of a much larger system. The operational and promotional dimensions gradually revealed themselves as a second job layered on top of authorship. Robin emphasizes that writing a book and publishing a book are fundamentally different jobs. Rebecca agrees and acknowledges that the publishing side requires a completely different skill set and infrastructure. The conversation underscores that authorship is creative work, while publishing and launching require strategy, coordination, and business acumen. Rebecca credits her Stanford mentor, Bob Sutton, as a life changing influence throughout the process. He guided her step by step, including decisions around selecting a publisher and choosing an agent. She initially did not plan to work with an agent, but through guidance and reflection, she shifted her perspective. His mentorship helped her ask better questions and approach the process more strategically rather than reactively. Rebecca reflects on an important mindset shift in her career. Earlier in life, she was comfortable being the big fish in a small pond. Over time, she came to believe that she performs better when surrounded by people who are smarter and more experienced than she is. She describes her superpower as working extremely hard and having confidence in that effort. Because of that, she prefers environments where others elevate her thinking and push her further. This philosophy became central to how she built her book launch team. As Rebecca learned more about the moving pieces required for a successful campaign, she became more intentional about who she wanted involved. She sought the best not in terms of prestige alone, but in terms of belief and commitment. She wanted people who would go to bat for her and advocate for the book with genuine enthusiasm. She noticed that some organizations that looked impressive on paper were not necessarily the right fit for her specific campaign. This led her to have extensive conversations with potential editors and publicists before making decisions. Rebecca developed a personal benchmark for evaluating partners. She paid attention to whether they were willing to apply the book's ideas within their own organizations. For her, that signaled authentic belief rather than surface level marketing support. When Simon and Schuster demonstrated early interest in implementing the book's learnings internally, it stood out as meaningful alignment. That commitment suggested they cared about the substance of the work, not just the p

    4h 1m

  3. FEB 11

    Corporating: Navigating Career and Life with Mandy Mooney

    In this episode, I'm joined by Mandy Mooney — author, corporate communicator, and performer — for a wide-ranging conversation about mentorship, career growth, and how to show up authentically in both work and life.   We talk about her path from performing arts to corporate communications, and how those early experiences shaped the way she approaches relationships, leadership, and personal authenticity. That foundation carries through to her current role as VP of Internal Communications, where she focuses on building connections and fostering resilience across teams.   We explore the three pillars of career success Mandy highlights in her book Corporating: Three Ways to Win at Work — relationships, reputation, and resilience — and how they guide her approach to scaling mentorship and helping others grow. Mandy shares practical strategies for balancing professional responsibilities with personal passions, and why embracing technology thoughtfully can enhance, not replace, human connection.   The conversation also touches on parenting, building independence in children, and the lessons she's learned about optimism, preparation, and persistence — both in the workplace and at home.   If you're interested in scaling mentorship, developing your career with intention, or navigating work with authenticity, this episode is for you. And if you want to hear more on these topics, catch Mandy speaking at Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th. 00:00 Start 02:26 Teaching Self-Belief and Independence Robin notes Mandy has young kids and a diverse career (performing arts → VP of a name-brand company → writing books). Robin asks: "What are the skills that you want your children to develop, to stay resilient in the world and the world of work that they're gonna grow up in?" Emphasis on meta-skills. Mandy's response: Core skills She loves the question, didn't expect it, finds it a "thrilling ride." Observes Robin tends to "put things out there before they exist" (e.g., talking about having children before actually having them). Skill 1: Envisioning possibilities "Envision the end, believe that it will happen and it is much more likely to happen." Teaching children to see limitless possibilities if they believe in them. Skill 2: Independence Examples: brushing their own hair, putting on clothes, asking strangers questions. One daughter in Girl Scouts: learning sales skills by approaching strangers to sell cookies. Independence builds confidence and problem-solving abilities for small and big life challenges. Skill 3: Self-belief / Self-worth Tied to independence. Helps children navigate life and career successfully. Robin asks about teaching self-belief Context: Mandy's kids are 6 and 9 years old (two girls). Mandy's approach to teaching self-belief Combination of: Words Mandy uses when speaking to them. Words encouraged for the children to use about themselves. Example of shifting praise from appearance to effort/creativity: Instead of "You look so pretty today" → "Wow, I love the creativity that you put into your outfit." Reason: "The voice that I use, the words that I choose, they're gonna receive that and internalize it." Corrective, supportive language when children doubt themselves: Example: Child says, "I'm so stupid, I can't figure out this math problem." Mandy responds: "Oh wow. That's something that we can figure out together. And the good news is I know that you are so smart and that you can figure this out, so let's work together to figure it out." Asking reflective questions to understand their inner thoughts: Example: "What's it like to be you? What's it like to be inside your head?" Child's response: "Well, you worry a lot," which Mandy found telling and insightful. Emphasizes coming from a place of curiosity to check in on a child's self-worth and self-identity journey. 04:30 Professional Journey and Role of VP of Internal Comms Robin sets up the question about professional development Notes Mandy has mentored lots of people. Wants to understand: Mandy's role as VP of Internal Communications (what that means). How she supports others professionally. How her own professional growth has been supported. Context: Robin just finished a workshop for professionals on selling themselves, asking for promotions, and stepping forward in their careers. Emphasizes that she doesn't consider herself an expert but learns from conversations with experienced people like Mandy. Mandy explains her role and path Career path has been "a winding road." Did not study internal communications; discovered it later. Finds her job fun, though sometimes stressful: "I often think I might have the most fun job in the world. I mean, it, it can be stressful and it can't, you know, there are days where you wanna bang your head against the wall, but by and large, I love my job. It is so fun." Internal communications responsibility: Translate company strategy into something employees understand and are excited about. Example: Translate business plan for 2026 to 2,800 employees. Team's work includes: Internal emails. PowerPoints for global town halls. Speaking points for leaders. Infusing fun into company culture via intranet stories (culture, customers, innovation). Quick turnaround on timely stories (example: employee running seven marathons on seven continents; story created within 24 hours). Storytelling and theater skills are key: Coaching leaders for presentations: hand gestures, voice projection, camera presence. Mandy notes shared theater background with Robin: "You and I are both thespian, so we come from theater backgrounds." Robin summarizes role Sounds like a mix of HR and sales: supporting employee development while "selling" them on the company. Mandy elaborates on impact and mentorship Loves making a difference in employees' lives by giving information and support. Works closely with HR (Human Resources) to: Provide learning and development opportunities. Give feedback. Help managers improve. Wrote a book to guide navigating internal careers and relationships. Mentorship importance: Mentors help accelerate careers in any organization. Mandy's career journey Started studying apparel merchandising at Indiana University (with Kelley School of Business minor). Shifted from pre-med → theater → journalism → apparel merchandising. Took full advantage of career fairs and recruiter networking at Kelley School of Business. "The way that I've gotten jobs is not through applying online, it's through knowing somebody, through having a relationship." First role at Gap Inc.: rotational Retail Management Training Program (RMP). Some roles enjoyable, some less so; realized she loved the company even if some jobs weren't ideal. Mentor influence: Met Bobby Stillton, president of Gap Foundation, who inspired her with work empowering women and girls. Took a 15-minute conversation with Bobby and got an entry-level communications role. Career growth happened through mentorship, internal networking, and alignment with company she loved. Advice for her daughters (Robin's question) Flash-forward perspective: post-college or early career. How to start a career in corporate / large organizations: Increase "luck surface area" (exposure to opportunities). Network in a savvy way. Ask at the right times. Build influence to get ahead. Mentorship and internal relationships are key, not just applying for jobs online. 12:15 Career Advice and Building Relationships Initial advice: "Well first I would say always call your mom. Ask for advice. I'm right here, honey, anytime." Three keys to success: Relationships Expand your network. "You say yes to everything, especially early in your career." Examples: sit in on meetings, observe special projects, help behind the scenes. Benefits: Increases credibility. Shows people you can do anything. Reputation Build a reputation as confident, qualified, and capable. Online presence: Example: LinkedIn profile—professional, up-to-date, connected to network. Be a sponsor/advocate for your company (school, office, etc.). Monthly posts suggested: team photos, events, showing responsibility and trust. Offline reputation: Deliver results better than expected. "Deliver on the things that you said you were gonna do and do a better job than people expected of you." Resilience Not taught from books—learned through experience. Build resilience through preparation, not "fake it till you make it." Preparation includes: practicing presentations, thinking through narratives, blocking time before/after to collect thoughts and connect with people. "Preparation is my headline … that's part of what creates resilience." Mandy turns the question to Robin: "I wanna ask you too, I mean, Robin, you, you live and breathe this every day too. What do you think are the keys to success?" Robin agrees with preparation as key. Value of service work: Suggests working in service (food, hospitality) teaches humility. "I've never met somebody I think even ever in my life who is super entitled and profoundly ungrateful, who has worked a service job for any length of time." Robin's personal experience with service work: First business: selling pumpkins at Robin's Pumpkin Patch (age 5). Key formative experience: running Robin's Cafe (2016, opened with no restaurant experience, on three weeks' notice). Ran the cafe for 3 years, sold it on Craigslist. Served multiple stakeholders: nonprofit, staff (~15 employees), investors ($40,000 raised from family/friends). Trial by fire: unprepared fi

    2h 47m

  4. JAN 21

    Why the Best Leaders are Better Storytellers with Robin P. Zander

    Welcome back to Snafu with Robin P. Zander. In this episode, I'm doing something a little different: I step into the guest seat for a conversation with one of my good friends, Andrew Bartlow, recorded for the People Leader Accelerator podcast alongside Jessica Yuen. We dive into storytelling, identity, and leadership — exploring how personal experiences shape professional influence. The conversation begins with a reflection on family and culture, from the Moroccan textiles behind me, made by my mother, to the influence of my father's environmental consulting work. These threads of personal history frame my lifelong fascination with storytelling, persuasion, and coalition-building. Andrew and Jessica guide the discussion through how storytelling intersects with professional growth. We cover how early experiences — like watching Lawrence of Arabia at a birthday sleepover — sparked curiosity about adventure, influence, and human connection, and how these interests evolved into a career focused on organizational storytelling and leadership. We explore practical frameworks, including my four-part story model (Setup → Change → Turning → Resolution) and the power of "twists" to create momentum and memorability. The episode also touches on authentic messaging, the role of vulnerability in leadership, and why practicing storytelling in everyday life—outside high-stakes moments—builds confidence and executive presence over time. Listeners will hear lessons from a lifetime of diverse experiences: running a café in the Mission District, collaborating with BJ Fogg on behavioral change, building Zander Media, and applying storytelling to align teams and organizations. We also discuss how authenticity and personal perspective remain a competitive advantage in an age of AI-generated content. If you're curious about how storytelling, practice, and presence intersect with leadership, persuasion, and influence, this episode is for you. And for more insights on human connection, organizational alignment, and the future of work, check out Snafu, my weekly newsletter on sales, persuasion, and storytelling here, and Responsive Conference, where we explore leadership, work, and organizational design here. Start (0:00) Storytelling & Identity Robin introduces Moroccan textiles behind him Made by his mother, longtime practicing artist Connects to Moroccan fiancée → double meaning of personal and cultural Reflection on family influence Father: environmental consulting firm Mother: artist Robin sees himself between their careers Early Fascination with Storytelling Childhood obsession with Morocco and Lawrence of Arabia Watched 4-hour movie at age 6–7 Fascinated by adventure, camels, storytelling, persuasion Early exposure shaped appreciation for coalition-building and influence Identity & Names Jess shares preference for "Jess" → casual familiarity Robin shares professional identity as "Xander" Highlights fluidity between personal and professional selves Childhood Experiences & Social Context Watching Lawrence of Arabia at birthday sleepover Friends uninterested → early social friction Andrew parallels with daughters and screen preferences Childhood experiences influence perception and engagement Professional Background & Storytelling Application Robin's long involvement with PeopleTech and People Leader Accelerator Created PLA website, branding, documented events Mixed pursuits: dance, media, café entrepreneurship Demonstrates applying skills across domains Collaboration with BJ Fogg → behavioral change expertise Storytelling as Connection and Alignment Robin: Storytelling pulls from personal domains and makes it relevant to others Purpose: foster connection → move together in same direction Executive relevance: coalition building, generating momentum, making the case for alignment Andrew: HR focus on connection, relationships, alignment, clarity Helps organizations move faster, "grease the wheels" for collaboration Robin's Credibility and Experience in Storytelling Key principle: practice storytelling more than listening Full-time entrepreneur for 15 years First business at age 5: selling pumpkins Organized neighborhood kids in scarecrow costumes to help sell Earned $500 → early lessons in coalition building and persuasion Gymnastics and acrobatics: love of movement → performance, discipline Café entrepreneurship: Robin's Cafe in Mission District, SF Started with 3 weeks' notice to feed conference attendees Housed within a dance studio → intersection of dance and behavioral change First experience managing full-time employees Learned the importance of storytelling for community building and growth Realized post-sale missed opportunity: storytelling could have amplified success Transition to Professional Storytelling (Zander Media) Lessons from cafe → focus on storytelling, messaging, content creation Founded Zander Media (2018) Distributed small team, specializes in narrative strategy and video production Works with venture-backed companies and HR teams to tell stories internally and externally Provides reps and depth in organizational storytelling Why Storytelling Matters for Organizations Connects people, fosters alignment Enables faster movement toward shared goals Storytelling as a "powerful form of connection" What Makes a Good Story Robin: frameworks exist, but ultimately humans want: Education, entertainment, attention Sustained attention (avoid drift to TikTok, distractions) Framework examples: Hero's Journey (Joseph Campbell) → 17 steps Dan Harmon's 8-part structure → simplified version of Hero's Journey Robin's preferred model: 4-part story structure (details/examples forthcoming) The Power of the Twist, and Organizational Storytelling Robin's Four-Part Story Model Core idea: stories work best when they follow a simple arc Setup → Change → Turning (twist/reveal) → Resolution Goal: not rigid frameworks, but momentum, surprise, payoff The "Turning" (Twist) as the Sticky Moment Pixar example via Steve Jobs and the iPod Nano Setup: Apple's dominance, market context, long build-up Choice point: Option A: just reveal the product Option B (chosen): pause + curiosity Turning: the "tiny jeans pocket" question Reveal: iPod Nano pulled from the pocket Effect: entertainment, disruption, memorability Key insight: The twist creates pause, delight, and attention This moment often determines whether a story is remembered Why Flat Stories Fail Example (uninspiring): "I ran a cafe → wanted more marketing → now I run Xander Media" Improved arc with turning: Ran a cafe → wanted to do more marketing → sold it on Craigslist → built Xander Media Lesson: A reveal or risk creates narrative energy The Four Parts in Practice Setup The world as it is (Bilbo in the Shire) Change Something disrupts the norm (Gandalf arrives) Turning Twist, reveal, or surprise (the One Ring) Resolution Payoff and return (Bilbo back to the Shire) How to Use This as a Leader Don't force stories into frameworks Look at stories you already tell Identify where a disruption, surprise, or reveal could live Coalition-building lens Stories should move people into shared momentum Excitement → flow → aligned action Storytelling Mediums for HR & Organizations Employer brand ≠ separate from company brand Should be co-owned by HR and marketing Brand clarity attracts the right people, repels the wrong ones Strong brands are defined by: Who they are Who they are not Who they're for and not for HR vs Marketing: The Nuance Collaboration works only if: HR leads on audience and truth Marketing supports execution, not control Risk: Marketing optimizes for customers, not employees HR understands attraction, retention, culture fit Storytelling at the Individual Level No one is "naturally" good or bad at storytelling It's reps, not talent Practical advice: Know your ~15 core stories (career, company, turning points) Practice pauses like a comedian Notice when people lean in Opinionated Messaging = Effective Messaging Internal storytelling should: Be clear and opinionated Repel as much as it attracts Avoid: Corporate vanilla Saying a lot without saying anything Truth + Aspirational Truth Marketing and storytelling are a mix of: What is actually true What the organization is becoming Being "30% more honest" builds trust Including flaws and tradeoffs Example: budget brands, Southwest, Apple's office-first culture Why This Works Opinions create personality Personality creates stickiness Stickiness creates memory, alignment, and momentum Authenticity as the last real advantage We're flooded with AI-generated content (video, writing, everything) Humans are extremely good at sensing what feels fake Inauthenticity is easier to spot than ever One of the few remaining advantages: Be true to the real story of the person or organization Not polished truth — actual truth What makes content feel "AI-ish" AI can generate volume fast Books, posts, stories in minutes What it can't replicate: Personal specificity Why a story matters to you What an experience felt like from the inside Lived moments Running a café Growing into leadership What lasts: Personal story lesson learned relevance to this reader relevance to this relationship What content will win long-term Vulnerability Not oversharing, but real ex

    58 min

  5. JAN 14

    Investing In People, AI, and the Future of Work with Virginie Raphael

    In this episode, I'm joined by Virginie Raphael — investor, entrepreneur, and philosopher of work — for a wide-ranging conversation about incentives, technology, and how we build systems that scale without losing their humanity. We talk about her background growing up around her family's flower business, and how those early experiences shaped the way she thinks about labor, value, and operating in the real economy. That foundation carries through to her work as an investor, where she brings an operator's lens to evaluating businesses and ideas. We explore how incentives quietly shape outcomes across industries, especially in healthcare. Virginie shares why telehealth was a meaningful shift and what needs to change to move beyond one-to-one, supply-constrained models of care. We also dig into AI, venture capital, and the mistakes founders commonly make today — from hiring sales teams too early to raising too much money too fast. Virginie offers candid advice on pitching investors, why thoughtful cold outreach still works, and how doing real research signals respect and fit. The conversation closes with a contrarian take on selling: why it's not a numbers game, how focus and pre-qualification drive better outcomes, and why knowing who not to target is just as valuable as finding the right people. If you're thinking about the future of work, building with intention, or navigating entrepreneurship in an AI-accelerated world, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, join us at Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th, where we'll keep exploring incentives, human skills, and what it really takes to build things that last. Start (0:00) Reflections on Work, Geography, and AI Adoption Virginie shares what she's noticing as trends in work and tech adoption: Geographic focus: she's excited to explore AI adoption outside traditional tech hubs. Examples: Atlanta, Nashville, Durham, Utah, Colorado, Georgia, North Carolina, parts of the Midwest. Rationale: businesses in these regions may adopt AI faster due to budgets, urgency, and impatience for tech that doesn't perform. "There are big corporates, there are middle and small businesses in those geos that have budget that will need the tech… and/or have less patience, I should say, for over-hub technologies that don't work." She notes that transitions to transformational technology never happen overnight, which creates opportunities: "We always underestimate how much time a transition to making anything that's so transformational… truly ubiquitous… just tends to think that it will happen overnight and it never does." Robin adds context from her own experience with Robin's Cafe and San Francisco's Mission District: Observed cultural and business momentum tied to geography Mentions Hollywood decline and rise of alternative media hubs (Atlanta, Morocco, New Jersey) Virginie reflects on COVID's impact on workforce behaviors: Opened a "window" to new modes of work and accelerated change: "There were many preexisting trends… but I do think that COVID gave a bit of a window into what was possible." Emphasis on structural change: workforce shifts require multi-year perspective and infrastructure, not just trends. Investor, Mission, and Capital Philosophy Virginie clarifies she is an investor, not a venture capitalist, resisting labels and prestige metrics. "I don't call myself a venture capitalist… I just say investor." Focuses on outcomes over categories, investing in solutions that advance the world she wants to see rather than chasing trendy tech sectors. "The outcome we want to see is everyone having the mode of work that suits them best throughout their lives." Portfolio themes: Access: helping people discover jobs they wouldn't otherwise know about. Retention / support: preventing workforce dropouts, providing appropriate healthcare, childcare, and caregiving support. "Anyone anywhere building towards that vision is investible by us." Critiques traditional venture capital practices: Raising VC money is not inherently a sign of success. "Raising from a VC is just not a sign of success. It's a milestone, not the goal." Concerned about concentration of capital into a few funds, leaving many founders unsupported. "There's a sense… that the work we do commands a lot less power in the world, a lot less effectiveness than holding the capital to hire that labor." Emphasizes structural, mission-driven investing over chasing categories: Invests in companies that prevent workforce dropouts, expand opportunity, and create equitable access to meaningful work. Portfolio strategy is diversified, focusing on infrastructure and long-term impact rather than quick wins. "We've tracked over time what type of founders and what type of solutions we attract and it's exactly the type of deal that we want to see." Reflects on COVID and societal trends as a lens for her investment thesis: "COVID gave a bit of a window into what was possible," highlighting alternative modes of work and talent distribution that are often overlooked. Labor, Ownership, and Durable Skills Virginie reframes the concept of labor, wages, and ownership: "The word labor in and of itself… is something we need to change." Interested in agency and ownership as investment opportunities, especially for small businesses transitioning to employee ownership. "For a very long time… there's been a shift towards knowledge work and how those people are compensated. If you go on the blue-collar side… it's about wages still and labor." Emphasizes proper capitalization and alignment of funds to support meaningful exits for smaller businesses, rather than chasing massive exits that drive the VC zeitgeist. AI fits into this discussion as part of broader investment considerations. Childhood experience in family flower business shaped her entrepreneurial and labor perspective: Selling flowers, handling cash, and interacting with customers taught "durable skills" that persisted into adulthood. "When I think of labor, I think of literally planting pumpkin plants… pulling espresso shots… bringing a customer behind the counter." Observing her father start a business from scratch instilled risk-taking and entrepreneurial spirit. "Seeing my dad do this when I was seven… definitely part of that." Skills like sales acumen, handling money, and talking to adults were early lessons that translated into professional confidence. Non-linear career paths and expanding exposure to opportunity: Concerned that students often see only a narrow range of job options: "Kids go out of high school, they can think of three jobs, two of which are their parents' jobs… Surely because we do a poor job exposing them to other things." Advocates for creating more flexible and exploratory career pathways for young people and adults alike. Durable skills and language shaping work: Introduction of the term "durable skills" reframes how competencies are understood: "I use it all the time now… as a proof point for why we need to change language." Highlights the stigma and limitations of words like "soft skills" or "fractional work": Fractional roles are high-impact and intentional, not temporary or inferior. "Brilliant people who wanna work on a fractional basis… they truly wanna work differently… on a portfolio of things they're particularly good at solving." Work in Progress uses language intentionally to shift perceptions and empower people around work. Cultural significance of language in understanding work and people: Virginie notes that language carries stigma and meaning that shapes opportunities and perception. References Louis Thomas's essays as inspiration for attention to the nuance and power of words: He'll take the word discipline and distill it into its root, tie it back into the natural world." Robin shares a personal anecdote about language and culture: "You can always use Google Translate… but also it's somebody learning DIA or trying to learn dharia, which is Moroccan Arabic… because my fiance is Moroccan." Human-Positive AI, Process, and Apprenticeship Virginie emphasizes the value of process over pure efficiency, especially in investing and work: "It's not about the outcome often, it's about the process… there is truly an apprenticeship quality to venture and investing." Using AI to accelerate tasks like investment memos is possible, but the human learning and iterative discussion is critical: "There's some beauty in that inefficiency, that I think we ought not to lose." AI should augment human work rather than replace the nuanced judgment, particularly in roles requiring creativity, judgment, and relationship-building: "No individual should be in a job that's either unsafe or totally boring or a hundred percent automatable." Introduces the term "human-positive AI" to highlight tools that enhance human potential rather than simply automate tasks: "How do we use it to truly augment the work that we do and augment the people?" Project selection and learning as a metric of value: Virginie evaluates opportunities not just on outcome, but what she will learn and who she becomes by doing the work: "If this project were to fail, what would I still learn? What would I still get out of it?" Cites examples like running a one-day SNAFU conference to engage people in human-centered selling principles: "Who do I become as a result of doing that is always been much more important to me than the concrete outcomes of this thing going well." AI Bubble, Transition, and Opportunity Discusses the current AI landscape and the comparison to past tech bubbles: "I think we're in an AI bubble… 1999 was a tech bubble and Amaz

    53 min

  6. JAN 7

    The Human Side of Selling with Jeff Jaworski

    Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Jeff Jaworsky, who shares his journey from a global role at Google to running his own business while prioritizing time with his children. We talk about the pivotal life and career decisions that shaped this transition, focusing on the importance of setting boundaries—both personally and professionally. Jeff shares insights on leaving a structured corporate world for entrepreneurship and the lessons learned along the way. We also explore the evolving landscape of sales and entrepreneurship, highlighting how integrating human connection and coaching skills is more important than ever in a tech-driven world. The conversation touches on the role of AI and technology, emphasizing how they can support—but not replace—essential human relationships. Jeff offers practical advice for coaches and salespeople on leveraging their natural skills and hints at a potential future book exploring the intersection of leadership, coaching, and sales. If you're curious about what's next for thoughtful leadership, entrepreneurship, and balancing work with life, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, get your tickets for Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th here, where we'll continue exploring human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI. Start (0:00) Early life and first real boundary Jeff grew up up in a structured, linear environment Decisions largely made for you Clear expectations, predictable paths Post–high school as the first inflection point College chosen because it's "what you're supposed to do" Dream: ESPN sports anchor (explicit role model: Stuart Scott) Reality check through research Job placement rate: ~3% First moment of asking: Is this the best use of my time? Is this fair to the people investing in me (parents)? Boundary lesson #1 Letting go of a dream doesn't mean failure Boundaries can be about honesty, not limitation Choosing logic over fantasy can unlock unexpected paths Dropping out of college → accidental entry into sales Working frontline sales at Best Buy while in school Selling computers, service plans, handling customers daily Decision to leave college opens capacity Manager notices and offers leadership opportunity Takes on home office department Largest sales category in the store Youngest supervisor in the company (globally) at 19 Early leadership challenges Managing people much older Navigating credibility, age bias, exclusion Learning influence without authority Boundary insight Temporary decisions can become formative Saying "yes" doesn't mean you're locked in forever Second boundary: success without sustainability Rapid growth at Best Buy Promotions Increasing responsibility Observing manager life up close 60-hour weeks No real breaks Lunch from vending machines Internal checkpoint Is this the life I want long-term? Distinguishing: Liking the work Disliking the cost Boundary lesson #2 You can love a craft and still reject the lifestyle around it Boundaries protect the future version of you Returning to school with intention Decision to go back to college This time with clarity Sales and marketing degree by design, not default Accelerated path Graduates in three years Clear goal: catch up, not start over Internship at J. Walter Thompson Entry into agency world Launch of long-term sales and marketing career Pattern recognition: how boundaries actually work Ongoing self-check at every stage Have I learned what I came here to learn? Am I still growing? Is this experience still stretching me? Boundaries as timing, not rejection Experiences "run their course" Leaving doesn't invalidate what came before Non-linear growth Sometimes stepping down is strategic Demotion → education Senior role → frontline role (later at Google) Downward moves that enable a bigger climb later Shared reflection with Robin Sales as a foundational skill Comparable to: Surfing (handling forces bigger than you) Early exposure to asking, pitching, rejection Best Buy reframed Customer service under pressure Handling frustrated, misinformed, emotional people Humility + persuasion + resilience Parallel experiences Robin selling a restaurant after learning everything she could Knowing the next step (expansion) and choosing not to take it Walking away without knowing what's next Core philosophy: learning vs. maintaining "If I'm not learning, I'm dying" Builder mindset, not maintainer Growth as a non-negotiable Career decisions guided by curiosity, not status Titles are temporary Skills compound Ladders vs. experience stacks Rejecting the myth of linear progression Valuing breadth, depth, and contrast The bridge metaphor Advice for people stuck between "not this" and "not sure what next" Don't leap blindly Build a bridge Bridge components Low-risk experiments Skill development Small tests in parallel with current work Benefits Reduces panic Increases clarity Turns uncertainty into movement Framing the modern career question Referencing the "jungle gym, not a ladder" idea Careers as lateral, diagonal, looping — not linear Growth through range, not just depth Connecting to Range and creative longevity Diverse experiences as a competitive advantage Late bloomers as evidence that exploration compounds Naming the real fear beneath the metaphor What if exploration turns into repeated failure? What if the next five moves don't work? Risk of confusing experimentation with instability Adding today's pressure cooker Economic uncertainty AI and automation reshaping work faster than previous generations experienced The tension between adaptability and survival The core dilemma How do you pursue a non-linear path without tumbling back to zero? How do you "build the bridge" instead of jumping blindly? How do you keep earning while evolving? The two-year rule Treating commitments like a contract with yourself Two years as a meaningful unit of time Long enough to: Learn deeply Be challenged Experience failure and recovery Short enough to avoid stagnation Boundaries around optional exits Emergency ripcord exists But default posture is commitment, not escape Psychological benefit Reduces panic during hard moments Prevents constant second-guessing Encourages depth over novelty chasing The 18-month check-in Using the final stretch strategically Asking: Am I still learning? Am I still challenged? Does this align with my principles? Shifting from execution to reflection Early exploration of "what's next" Identifying gaps: Skills to acquire Experiences to test Regaining control External forces aren't always controllable Internal planning always is Why most people get stuck Planning too late Waiting until: Layoffs Burnout Forced transitions Trying to design the future in crisis Limited creativity Fear-based decisions Contrast with proactive planning Calm thinking Optionality Leverage Extending the contract Recognizing unfinished business Loving the work Still growing Still contributing meaningfully One-year extensions as intentional choices Not inertia Not fear Conscious recommitment A long career, one organization at a time Example: nearly 13 years at Google Six different roles Multiple reinventions inside one company Pattern over prestige Frontline sales Sales leadership Enablement Roles as chapters, not identities Staying while growing Leaving only when growth plateaus Experience stacking over ladder climbing Rejecting linear advancement Titles matter less than skills Accumulating perspective Execution Leadership Systems Transferable insight What works with customers What works internally What scales Sales enablement as an example of bridge-building Transition motivated by impact Desire to help at scale Supporting many sellers, not just personal results A natural evolution, not a pivot Built on prior sales experience Expanded influence Bridge logic in action Skills reused Scope widened Risk managed Zooming out: sales, stigma, and parenting Introducing the next lens: children Three boys: 13, 10, 7 Confronting sales stereotypes Slimy Manipulative Self-serving Tension between reputation and reality Loving sales Building a career around it Teaching it without replicating the worst versions Redefining sales as a helping profession Sales as service Primary orientation: benefit to the other person Compensation as a byproduct, not the driver Ethical center Believe in what you're recommending Stand behind its value Sleep well regardless of outcome Losses reframed Most deals don't close Failure as feedback Integrity as the constant Selling to kids (and being sold by them) Acknowledging reality Everyone sells, constantly Titles don't matter Teaching ethos, not tactics How you persuade matters more than whether you win Kindness Thoughtfulness Awareness of the other side Everyday negotiations Bedtime extensions Appeals to age, fairness, peer behavior Sales wins without good reasoning Learning opportunity Success ≠ good process Boundaries still matter Why sales gets a bad reputation Root cause: selfishness Focus on "what I get" Languag

    59 min

  7. 11/20/2025

    The Science of Human Performance with Melissa Painter

    Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Melissa Painter, founder of Breakthru – a platform bringing movement, mindfulness, and behavior change into workplaces around the world. We talk about how Melissa uses movement as a tool to improve focus, resilience, and well-being, and how her background in dance and creative movement informs her approach to human performance. We explore the science and art of helping people move more, think better, and feel more connected to their work and each other. Melissa shares how she designs short, immersive experiences for employees, what it takes to change workplace culture, and why small, intentional shifts in movement can unlock big changes in thinking and performance. We also dive into the intersection of creativity, neuroscience, and technology, and how thoughtful, human-centered design can make work feel more alive and meaningful. If you're curious about how movement, mindfulness, and behavior change can transform your work and life, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we'll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, creativity, and thriving in the modern workplace. I'm so glad and honored to have Melissa joining us in this talk. If you're interested in her work, take a look at Breakthru – you can try it and share it with your team here: Take your first Breakthru! https://breakthru.me/

    47 min

  8. 11/08/2025

    How to Build What You Believe with Shannon Deep and Kevan Lee

    Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Kevan Lee and Shannon Deep, co-founders of Bonfire – a creative studio reimagining what it means to build brands, tell stories, and live meaningful lives. We talk about how Bonfire began as a "Trojan horse" – a branding agency on the surface, but really a vehicle for deeper questions: What does fulfilling work look like? How do we find meaning beyond our careers? And how can business become a space for honesty, connection, and growth? Kevan and Shannon share how their partnership formed, what it takes to build trust as co-founders, and how vulnerability and self-awareness fuel their collaboration. We explore their path from tech and theater to building Bonfire, hosting creative retreats, and helping founders tell more authentic stories. We also dive into how AI is changing storytelling, the myth of "broetry" on LinkedIn, and why transparency is the future of marketing. If you're curious about what's next for creativity, leadership, and meaningful work, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we'll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI. Start (0:00) How Bonfire Started (14:25) Robin notes how transparent and intentional they've been building their business and community Says Bonfire feels like a 21st-century agency – creative, human, and not traditional Invites them to describe what they're building and their vision for it Kevan's response: Admits he feels imposter syndrome around being called an "entrepreneur" Laughs that it's technically true but still feels strange Describes Bonfire as partly a traditional branding agency They work with early-stage startups Help with brand strategy, positioning, messaging, and differentiation. But says the heart of their work is much deeper "We create spaces for people to explore what a fulfilling life looks like – one that includes work, but isn't defined by it." Their own careers inspired this – jobs that paid well but felt empty, or jobs that felt good but didn't pay the bills Bonfire became their way to build something more meaningful A space to have these conversations themselves And to invite others into it This includes community, retreats, and nontraditional formats Jokes that the agency side is a Trojan horse – a vehicle to fund the work they truly care about Shannon adds: They're agnostic about what Bonfire "does" Could be a branding agency, publishing house, even an ice cream shop "Money is just gas in the engine." The larger goal is creating spaces for people to explore their relationship to work Especially for those in transition, searching for meaning, or redefining success Robin reflects on their unusual path Notes most marketers who start agencies chase awards and fame But Shannon and Kevan built Bonfire around what they wished existed Recalls their past experiences Kevan's path from running a publication (later sold to Vox) to Buffer and then Oyster Shannon's shared time with him at Oyster Mentions their recent milestone – Bonfire's first live retreat in France 13 participants, including them Held in a rented castle For a two-year-old business, he calls it ambitious and impressive Asks: "How did it go? What did people get out of it?" Shannon on the retreat Laughs that they're still processing what it was They had a vibe in mind – but not a fixed structure One participant described it as "a wellness retreat for marketers" Not wrong – but also not quite right Attendees came from tech and non-tech backgrounds The focus: exploring people's most meaningful relationship to work Who you are when you're not at your desk How to bring that awareness back to real life — beyond castles and catered meals People came at it from different angles Some felt misaligned with their work Others were looking for something new Everyone was at a crossroads in their career Kevan on the space they built The retreat encouraged radical honesty People shared things like: "I have this job because I crave approval." "I care about money as a status symbol." "I hate what I do, but I don't know what else I'd be good at." They didn't force vulnerability, but wanted to make it safe if people chose it They thought deeply about values – what needed to be true for that kind of trust Personally, Kevan says the experience shifted his identity From "marketer" to something else – maybe "producer," maybe "creator" The retreat made him realize how many paths are possible "Now I just want to do more of this." Robin notes there are "so many threads to pull on" Brings up family business and partnerships Shares his own experience growing up in his dad's small business Talks about lessons from Robin's Cafe and the challenges of partnerships Says he's fascinated by co-founder dynamics – both powerful and tricky Asks how Shannon and Kevan's working relationship works What it was like at Oyster Why they decided to start Bonfire together And how it's evolved after the retreat Kevan on their beginnings He hired Shannon at Oyster – she was Editorial Director, he was SVP of Marketing Worked together for about a year and a half Knew early on that something clicked Shared values Similar worldview Trusted each other When Oyster ended, partnering up felt natural – "Let's figure out what's next, together." Robin observes their groundedness Says they both seem stable and mature, which likely helps the partnership Jokes about his own chaos running Robin's Café – late nights, leftover wine, cold quinoa Asks Shannon directly: "Do you still follow Kevan's lead?" Shannon's laughs and agrees they're both very regulated people But adds that it comes from learned coping mechanisms Says they've both developed pro-social ways to handle stress People-pleasing Overachievement Perfectionism Intellectualizing feelings instead of expressing them "Those are coping mechanisms too," she notes, "but at least they keep us calm when we talk." Building Trust and Partnership (14:54–23:15) Shannon says both she and Kevan have done deep personal work. Therapy, reflection, and self-inquiry are part of their toolkit. That helps them handle a relationship that's both intimate and challenging. They know their own baggage. They try not to take the other person's reactions personally. It doesn't always work—but they trust they'll work through conflict. When they started Bonfire: They agreed the business world is unpredictable. So they made a pinky swear: Friends first, business second. The friendship is the real priority. When conflict comes up, they ask: "Is this really life or death—or are we just forgetting what matters?" Shannon goes back to the question and clarifies  Says they lead in different ways. Each has their "zone of genius." They depend on each other's strengths. It's not leader and follower – it's mutual reliance. Shannon explains: Kevan's great at momentum: He moves things forward and ships projects fast. Shannon tends to be more perfectionist: Wants things to be fully formed before releasing. Kevan adds they talk often about "rally and rest." Kevan rallies, he thrives on pressure and urgency. Shannon rests, she values slowing down and reflection. Together, that creates a healthy rhythm.  Robin notes lingering habits Wonders if any "hangovers" from their Oyster days remain. Kevan reflects  At first, he hesitated to show weakness. Coming from a manager role, vulnerability felt risky. Shannon quickly saw through it. He realized openness was essential, not optional. Says their friendship and business both rely on honesty. Robin agrees and says he wouldn't discourage co-founders—it's just a big decision. Like choosing a spouse, it shapes your life for years. Notes he's never met with one of them without the other. "That says something," he adds. Their partnership clearly works—even if it takes twice the time. Rethinking Marketing (23:19) Kevan's light moment: Asks if Robin's comment about their teamwork was feedback for them. Robin's observation  Notes how in sync Shannon and Kevan are. Emails one, gets a reply CC'd with the other. Says the tempo of Bonfire feels like their collaboration itself. Wonders what that rhythm feels like internally. Kevan's response  Says it's partly intentional, partly habit. They genuinely enjoy working together. Adds they don't chase traditional agency milestones. No interest in Ad Age lists or Cannes awards. Their goal: have fun and make meaningful work. Robin pivots to the state of marketing (24:04) Mentions the shift from Madison Avenue's glory days to today's tech-driven world. Refers to Mad Men and the "growth at all costs" startup era. Notes how AI and tech are changing how people see their role in work and life. Kevan's background  Came from startups, not agencies. Learned through doing, not an MBA. Immersed in books like Hypergrowth and Traction. Took Reforge courses—knows the mechanics of scaling. Before that, worked as a journalist. Gained curiosity and calm under pressure, but also urgency. Admits startup life taught him both good and bad habits. Robin notes  Neither lives the Madison Avenue life. Kevan's in Boise. Shannon's in France. Shannon's background Started in theater – behind the scenes as a dramaturg and producer. Learned how

    59 min
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About

Welcome to Snafu, a podcast about sales, persuasion, and work. Amidst all the change going on in the world today, "durable" skills are often the most resilient. Snafu is a podcast for entrepreneurs, freelancers, and ambitious professionals who need to sell – but aren't quite comfortable yet. Robin Zander has spent more than 20 years tackling things he doesn't know how to do. From starting a restaurant in three weeks without any prior restaurant experience to performing as a self-taught acrobat with the San Francisco Opera, Robin has built his life and career around learning new things. But growth isn't all upside. Trying new things comes with lots of failures. On Snafu, Robin sits down with authors and entrepreneurs to talk about a more human approach to sales, persuasion, and work.

Information

  • Creator
    Robin P. Zander
  • Years Active
    2015 - 2026
  • Episodes
    100
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Robin Peter Zander
  • Show Website
    Snafu w/ Robin Zander