Snafu w/ Robin Zander

Robin P. Zander
  • 5.0 (15)
  • ENTREPRENEURSHIP
  • UPDATED WEEKLY

Welcome to Snafu, a podcast about sales, persuasion, and work. Amidst all the change going on in the world today, "durable" skills are often the most resilient. Snafu is a podcast for entrepreneurs, freelancers, and ambitious professionals who need to sell – but aren't quite comfortable yet. Robin Zander has spent more than 20 years tackling things he doesn't know how to do. From starting a restaurant in three weeks without any prior restaurant experience to performing as a self-taught acrobat with the San Francisco Opera, Robin has built his life and career around learning new things. But growth isn't all upside. Trying new things comes with lots of failures. On Snafu, Robin sits down with authors and entrepreneurs to talk about a more human approach to sales, persuasion, and work.

  1. 3D AGO

    Building Community that Drives Business with Joshua Zerkel

    In this episode, I'm joined by Joshua Zerkel – community strategist, former Evernote ambassador turned community leader, and author of The Community Code – for a conversation about what it really takes to build community that drives business outcomes. Joshua's path is anything but typical. He started as a power user and advocate, writing productivity books about Evernote before eventually joining the company and helping scale its community as it grew from 100M to 200M users. From there, he went on to build and lead community at Asana, turning it into a global program spanning forums, ambassadors, experts, and hundreds of events – all tied to real pipeline impact. His work centers on a simple but often misunderstood idea: community is just relationships at scale. We talk about why community is so often undervalued inside organizations, how to translate its impact to business leaders, and the constant tradeoffs between depth and reach. We dig into the messy realities of building community inside companies – from navigating trust during Evernote's privacy-policy crisis to responding to backlash and actually listening when your users push back. Joshua shares what breaks when companies stop listening, why "personas" often miss the point, and how to design community programs around real people instead. We also explore the role of events as a community engine – how to think about formats, why in-person still matters, and what separates meaningful engagement from surface-level activity. Along the way, we touch on the fine line between community and cult dynamics, and what companies like Peloton get right when it comes to creating real connection. If you're building community, trying to prove its value, or thinking about how relationships translate into growth, this conversation is for you.

    47 min

  2. APR 8

    How to Move People with Lindsey Caplan

    .In this episode, I'm joined by Lindsey Caplan — organizational psychologist, former Hollywood screenwriter, and upcoming author — for a conversation about creativity, communication, and how people and groups are actually moved. Lindsey's path is anything but linear. She started her career on TV and film sets in Los Angeles, working on shows like Malcolm in the Middle, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and The Amazing Race. From there, she transitioned into learning and development at companies like DreamWorks Animation, Zendesk, and Credit Karma, eventually stepping fully into organizational design and change work at The Gathering Effect. Her new book, Moved — coming March 2027 — explores the forces that shape human behavior: what moves us, how we can move others, and why pull, not push, is the most sustainable path to influence. We talk about why the book took nine years to write, what she learned about the psychology of groups, and why "being seen and heard" is at the heart of all meaningful change. We dig into the creative process, including the messy parts: identity shifts, losing and regaining a creative voice, and what it takes to translate an idea that lives in your head into something that lands with other people. Lindsey shares how her storytelling roots shape her work today — from understanding stakes and motivation to designing experiences that create real engagement, not just compliance. We also explore the gap between knowing and doing, why so many best-practice books fail to stick inside organizations, and how leaders can communicate in ways that create ownership instead of resistance. If you're curious about influence, the craft of writing, or how to move people without pressure, this conversation is for you.

    51 min

  3. APR 4

    Founder-Led Sales with Gagan Biyani - Snafu Conference 2026

    This conversation between Robin Zander and Gagan Biyani, founder of Maven and early contributor to Udemy, Lyft, and Spread, explores the intersection of growth, education, and entrepreneurship. The session begins with a brief mindfulness exercise for the audience before diving into Biyani's career and his perspective on growth. He distinguishes growth from traditional marketing by emphasizing that growth is a systematic approach that integrates product, analytics, and user behavior to drive scalable results, rather than solely focusing on branding or messaging. Biyani also addresses the ethics of growth, noting that while manipulation is unavoidable in communication, respecting users' agency and providing genuine value is key. Fear or guilt about "manipulating" others often hinders action, whereas ethical influence fosters trust and long-term engagement. Drawing from his own experiences, he underscores the importance of providing optimism and clarity, rather than relying on fear-based tactics, in both marketing and education. Education remains a central theme of Biyani's work. At Udemy, he helped pioneer live, video-based courses to make learning more accessible online, though he notes systemic barriers prevented it from fully replacing traditional college education. Maven continues this mission with cohort-based programs led by industry experts, helping professionals rapidly gain practical skills. Biyani highlights the transformative potential of AI in upskilling, explaining that while AI won't replace human teachers, it significantly expands access and efficiency for learners across industries. Reflecting on his broader entrepreneurial journey, Biyani shares lessons from Lyft and Spread. Lyft demonstrated the power of timing and product-market fit, while Spread taught him that execution alone is not enough – understanding the market and being "right" about demand is essential. Across all ventures, he emphasizes pattern recognition, balancing exploration with focused execution, and learning from successes and failures alike. Ultimately, Biyani's philosophy is to tackle challenging problems that align with personal strengths, respect users' agency, and leverage insight and experimentation to create meaningful impact.

    1 hr

  4. FEB 25

    How to Sell Yourself – A Workshop

    Robin Zander hosted a Snafu webinar for the Sidebar community on non-sales selling—think self-promotion for career transitions, freelancers, entrepreneurs, and product people. The goal: learn to "sell yourself" without the ick factor.   Participants shared fears: follow-ups feel intimidating, sales feels slimy, and success seems like a numbers game. Robin reframed it: selling is really about enrollment—being a chief evangelist for your work, not begging for attention.   Drawing on stories from his childhood pumpkin patch, his time as a personal trainer (where desperation lost him clients), and opening Robin's Cafe in San Francisco (raising $40k, serving multiple stakeholders, training staff with Danny Meyer's principles), he showed the difference between selling from need vs. service. Long-term success comes from genuine connection, curiosity, optimism, and passion.   Attendees explored their "authentic attitude" and reflected on times self-promotion felt good versus slimy. Exercises included mapping all the people who benefit from your work—employees, customers, managers, mentees, community—and practicing generosity in selling (a "Miracle on 34th Street" mindset: help customers even if it means sending them elsewhere).   In Q&A, Robin tackled: Asking for promotions as modeling for others, especially women and minorities Persistence in follow-ups (yes, emailing Mark Benioff 53 times counts) Relationship-based enterprise selling Avoiding fear-based AI marketing by knowing who you serve and what problem you solve Recommended reading: Setting the Table (Danny Meyer), Unreasonable Hospitality (Will Guidara), The New Strategic Selling.   Robin also shared upcoming Snafu conference details (March 5, Oakland Museum of California) and reminded everyone: Snafu = situation normal; all f****d up. 00:00 Start 01:06 Audience Fears About Selling Robin Zander welcomes 93 participants to the webinar Notes the session is interactive with exercises planned Encourages participants to drop questions in chat or interrupt him Last 15–20 minutes reserved for questions Robin introduces himself briefly Focuses on storytelling as a tool for self-promotion Shares experience as a community builder Runs a conference called Responsive since 2016 (not Snafu) Tools, structures, and company cultures for resilient organizations Two-day event each September on the future of work Focus on building resilience in organizations Observations on rapid change Technology and work-life changes happening at a fast pace Questions about resilience in individuals Traits needed in careers, personal relationships, professional relationships Ability to stay resilient through change Robin frames his expertise Emphasizes his strength in asking questions and fostering honest conversations Labels himself a reluctant salesperson Not the world's leading expert on self-promotion or selling Key lessons from research and interviews Two buckets matter in business and life: Example: Sidebar community forming coalitions for learning and action Operational excellence: being competent and at least as good as others Promotion/enrollment/sales: standing up, saying what you want, building coalitions Started interviewing people about influence and persuasion Started a weekly newsletter called Snafu Written by hand, not AI Shares lessons from his life and others about self-promotion and resilience Focus on courage to take action: raising hand, offering something valuable Core characteristics of self-promotion and selling yourself Connecting with others: art of connection Courage to ask: inspired by Amanda Palmer's TED Talk and book The Art of Asking Opposes traditional "always be closing" sales mentality Advocates for simply asking for what you want Current work mostly involves storytelling for large companies Clients include Supersonic, Airbnb, Zappos, and others 12:25 Service as the Core Principle Robin introduces the concept of storytelling for self-promotion Stories used to: Get promotions Build coalitions Propel career or organizational growth Emphasizes turning personal, career, or company stories into "commercials" Focus of today's talk: self-promotion with impact Core principle: service Showing up from a place of helping others Through helping others, also helping oneself Distinguishes between sleazy salespeople and effective self-promoters Childhood anecdote: Robin's pumpkin patch Tended plants all summer, learned responsibility and care Harvested pumpkins and sold them using a small red tin box labeled "money" Ran "Robin's Pumpkin Patch" for five to seven years At age five, father had him plant pumpkin seeds Engaged neighborhood kids for fun, collaborative promotion Explained product (pumpkins) enthusiastically to potential buyers Used scarecrow costumes and creative gestures to attract attention Lessons learned from pumpkin patch: Authentic enthusiasm creates value Helping people do what they were already inclined to do Early experience of earning and serving simultaneously Self-promotion is most effective when it's service-driven, not manipulative Applying childhood lesson to career and business Asking for a raise Persuading companies to choose one service over another Promoting oneself or others (e.g., Evan, web developer) Key principle: approach self-promotion from delight and service, not need or fear Authentic enthusiasm as foundation for: Interactive exercise for participants Not influenced by sleep deprivation or stress Could be inspired by childhood or adult experiences Opposite of fear; personal and unique for each participant Question posed: what is your authentic attitude when self-promoting? Examples shared from participants: Curiosity Passion Inspiration Service to others Observation Possibility Insight Value Helping others Creativity Belief in serendipity Optimism Key takeaway from exercise and story Promoting from delight, enthusiasm, and service Promoting from need or fear Two versions of self-promotion: Effective self-promotion aligns with authenticity and enthusiasm, creating value for others while advancing oneself 18:36 Gym Job and Needy Selling Robin shares the next story and sets up the next exercise Gym culture is sales-heavy Initial motivation: love of fitness, desire to help people Quickly realizes environment incentivizes personal trainers to sell aggressively Timeframe: ~20 years later, at age 20, moved to San Francisco First post-college job: personal trainer in gyms Early experience at gyms Key lesson from early failure Selling from need feels gross Promoting oneself from fear or desperation leads to poor results Recognizes similarity to unwanted sales calls received personally First authentic success in self-promotion Worked at Petro and World's Gym in San Francisco, Pilates instructor Owner confronted Robin after two weeks: no clients, potential clients being lost to others Threatened termination by Friday if no clients acquired Robin froze under pressure, approached clients but with needy, desperate energy Outcome: fired by Friday, left gym Encounters man in pain on Valencia Street, offers help as personal trainer Approach comes from genuine care, desire to serve Leads to three-year working relationship, consistent sessions, good income Next client: world-famous photographer Michael Light at UCSF swimming pool Client comes from natural connection, not pushy salesmanship Dichotomy observed: Pushy, need-based self-promotion → freeze, poor results Service-oriented self-promotion → natural connections, sustained relationships Exercise for participants Prompt: identify two moments: One time self-promoting felt slimy → what were you doing? One time self-promoting felt good → what were you doing differently? Two-minute reflection / chat participation Participant reflections/examples Slimy examples: Interviewing for a job during layoffs, giving desperate energy Selling P&L at a hyperscaler Selling computers and printers in UK post-college Sales emails getting ghosted Feeling inauthentic or performative, taking advantage of someone Good examples: Offering services out of care and love rather than ROI Showing impact of work to junior child Knowing services add real value and solve a challenge Being clear on what the other person needs Key takeaway Self-promotion feels different depending on intent and knowledge Slimy → desperate, inauthentic, unclear value to recipient Authentic → service-driven, clear value, connection-focused Effective self-promotion combines knowing your value and serving others, not just pushing for personal gain 25:35 Miracle on 34th Street Lesson Feeling good in self-promotion comes from genuinely helping, solving problems, and sharing information Santa Claus hired at Macy's to hold kids and give candy canes, but real goal: persuade parents to buy from Macy's Santa instead sends parents to competitor to truly serve them Macy's manager initially furious Outcome: customers feel genuinely served, return praising Macy's, become loyal fans Robin references Miracle on 34th Street (original version) Key insight: providing real value, even if it benefits someone else, eventually returns value to you "Put enough bread across the water, eventually good things come back" Participant reflections Slimy: knowing audience expects judgment, catering to them for approval Good: giving the gift of knowledge, providing service freely Takea

    1 hr

  5. FEB 18

    Your Best Meeting Ever with Rebecca Hinds, PhD

    In this episode, I'm joined by Rebecca Hinds — organizational behavior expert and founder of the Work AI Institute at Glean — for a practical conversation about why meetings deteriorate over time and how to redesign them. Rebecca argues that bad meetings aren't a people problem — they're a systems problem. Without intentional design, meetings default to ego, status signaling, conflict avoidance, and performative participation. Over time, low-value meetings become normalized instead of fixed. Drawing on her research at Stanford University and her leadership of the Work Innovation Lab at Asana, she shares frameworks from her new book, Your Best Meeting Ever, including: The four legitimate purposes of a meeting: decide, discuss, debate, or develop The CEO test for when synchronous time is truly required How to codify shared meeting standards Why leaders must explicitly give permission to leave low-value meetings We also explore leadership, motivation, and the myth that kindness and high standards are opposites. Rebecca explains why effective leaders diagnose what drives each individual — encouragement for some, direct challenge for others — and design environments that support both performance and belonging. Finally, we talk about AI and the future of work. Tools amplify existing culture: strong systems improve, broken systems break faster. Organizations that redesign how work happens — not just what tools they use — will have the advantage. If you want to run better meetings, lead with more clarity, and rethink how collaboration actually happens, this episode is for you. You can find Your Best Meeting Ever at major bookstores and learn more at rebeccahinds.com.  00:00 Start 00:27 Why Meetings Get Worse Over Time Robin references Good Omens and the character Crowley, who designs the M25 freeway to intentionally create frustration and misery. They use this metaphor to illustrate how systems can be designed in ways that amplify dysfunction, whether intentionally or accidentally. The idea is that once dysfunctional systems become normalized, people stop questioning them. They also discuss Cory Doctorow's concept of enshittification, where platforms and systems gradually decline as organizational priorities override user experience. Rebecca connects this pattern directly to meetings, arguing that without intentional design, meetings default to chaos and energy drain. Over time, poorly designed meetings become accepted as inevitable rather than treated as solvable design problems. Rebecca references the Simple Sabotage Field Manual created by the Office of Strategic Services during World War II. The manual advised citizens in occupied territories on how to subtly undermine organizations from within. Many of the suggested tactics involved meetings, including encouraging long speeches, focusing on irrelevant details, and sending decisions to unnecessary committees. The irony is that these sabotage techniques closely resemble common behaviors in modern corporate meetings. Rebecca argues that if meetings were designed from scratch today, without legacy habits and inherited norms, they would likely look radically different. She explains that meetings persist in their dysfunctional form because they amplify deeply human tendencies like ego, status signaling, and conflict avoidance. Rebecca traces her interest in teamwork back to her experience as a competitive swimmer in Toronto. Although swimming appears to be an individual sport, she explains that success is heavily dependent on team structure and shared preparation. Being recruited to swim at Stanford exposed her to an elite, team-first environment that reshaped how she thought about performance. She became fascinated by how a group can become greater than the sum of its parts when the right cultural conditions are present. This experience sparked her long-term curiosity about why organizations struggle to replicate the kind of cohesion often seen in sports. At Stanford, Coach Lee Mauer emphasized that emotional wellbeing and performance were deeply connected. The team included world record holders and Olympians, and the performance standards were extremely high. Despite the intensity, the culture prioritized connection and belonging. Rituals like informal story time around the hot tub helped teammates build relationships beyond performance metrics. Rebecca internalized the lesson that elite performance and strong culture are not opposing forces. She saw firsthand that intensity and warmth can coexist, and that psychological safety can actually reinforce high standards rather than weaken them. Later in her career at Asana, Rebecca encountered the company value of rejecting false trade-offs. This reinforced a lesson she had first learned in swimming, which is that many perceived either-or tensions are not actually unavoidable. She argues that organizations often assume they must choose between performance and happiness, or between kindness and accountability. In her experience, these are false binaries that can be resolved through better design and clearer expectations. She emphasizes that motivated and engaged employees tend to produce higher quality work, making culture a strategic advantage rather than a distraction. Kindness versus ruthlessness in leadership Robin raises the contrast between harsh, fear-based leadership styles and more relational, positive leadership approaches. Both styles have produced winning teams, which raises the question of whether success comes because of the leadership style or despite it. Rebecca argues that resilience and accountability are essential, regardless of tone. She stresses that kindness alone is not sufficient for high performance, but neither is harshness inherently superior. Effective leadership requires understanding what motivates each individual, since some people thrive on encouragement while others crave direct challenge. Rebecca personally identifies with wanting to be pushed and appreciates clarity when her work falls short of expectations. She concludes that the most effective leaders diagnose motivation carefully and design environments that maximize both growth and performance. 08:51 Building the Book-Launch Team: Mentors, Agents, and Choosing the Right Publisher Robin asks Rebecca about the size and structure of the team she assembled to execute the launch successfully. He is especially curious about what the team actually looked like in practice and how coordinated the effort needed to be. He also asks about the meeting cadence and work cadence required to bring a book launch to life at that level. The framing highlights that writing the book is only one phase, while launching it is an entirely different operational challenge. Rebecca explains that the process felt much more organic than it might appear from the outside. She admits that at the beginning, she underestimated the full scope of what a book launch entails. Her original motivation was simple: she believed she had a valuable perspective, wanted to help people, and loved writing. As she progressed deeper into the publishing process, she realized that writing the manuscript was only one piece of a much larger system. The operational and promotional dimensions gradually revealed themselves as a second job layered on top of authorship. Robin emphasizes that writing a book and publishing a book are fundamentally different jobs. Rebecca agrees and acknowledges that the publishing side requires a completely different skill set and infrastructure. The conversation underscores that authorship is creative work, while publishing and launching require strategy, coordination, and business acumen. Rebecca credits her Stanford mentor, Bob Sutton, as a life changing influence throughout the process. He guided her step by step, including decisions around selecting a publisher and choosing an agent. She initially did not plan to work with an agent, but through guidance and reflection, she shifted her perspective. His mentorship helped her ask better questions and approach the process more strategically rather than reactively. Rebecca reflects on an important mindset shift in her career. Earlier in life, she was comfortable being the big fish in a small pond. Over time, she came to believe that she performs better when surrounded by people who are smarter and more experienced than she is. She describes her superpower as working extremely hard and having confidence in that effort. Because of that, she prefers environments where others elevate her thinking and push her further. This philosophy became central to how she built her book launch team. As Rebecca learned more about the moving pieces required for a successful campaign, she became more intentional about who she wanted involved. She sought the best not in terms of prestige alone, but in terms of belief and commitment. She wanted people who would go to bat for her and advocate for the book with genuine enthusiasm. She noticed that some organizations that looked impressive on paper were not necessarily the right fit for her specific campaign. This led her to have extensive conversations with potential editors and publicists before making decisions. Rebecca developed a personal benchmark for evaluating partners. She paid attention to whether they were willing to apply the book's ideas within their own organizations. For her, that signaled authentic belief rather than surface level marketing support. When Simon and Schuster demonstrated early interest in implementing the book's learnings internally, it stood out as meaningful alignment. That commitment suggested they cared about the substance of the work, not just the p

    4h 1m

  6. FEB 11

    Corporating: Navigating Career and Life with Mandy Mooney

    In this episode, I'm joined by Mandy Mooney — author, corporate communicator, and performer — for a wide-ranging conversation about mentorship, career growth, and how to show up authentically in both work and life.   We talk about her path from performing arts to corporate communications, and how those early experiences shaped the way she approaches relationships, leadership, and personal authenticity. That foundation carries through to her current role as VP of Internal Communications, where she focuses on building connections and fostering resilience across teams.   We explore the three pillars of career success Mandy highlights in her book Corporating: Three Ways to Win at Work — relationships, reputation, and resilience — and how they guide her approach to scaling mentorship and helping others grow. Mandy shares practical strategies for balancing professional responsibilities with personal passions, and why embracing technology thoughtfully can enhance, not replace, human connection.   The conversation also touches on parenting, building independence in children, and the lessons she's learned about optimism, preparation, and persistence — both in the workplace and at home.   If you're interested in scaling mentorship, developing your career with intention, or navigating work with authenticity, this episode is for you. And if you want to hear more on these topics, catch Mandy speaking at Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th. 00:00 Start 02:26 Teaching Self-Belief and Independence Robin notes Mandy has young kids and a diverse career (performing arts → VP of a name-brand company → writing books). Robin asks: "What are the skills that you want your children to develop, to stay resilient in the world and the world of work that they're gonna grow up in?" Emphasis on meta-skills. Mandy's response: Core skills She loves the question, didn't expect it, finds it a "thrilling ride." Observes Robin tends to "put things out there before they exist" (e.g., talking about having children before actually having them). Skill 1: Envisioning possibilities "Envision the end, believe that it will happen and it is much more likely to happen." Teaching children to see limitless possibilities if they believe in them. Skill 2: Independence Examples: brushing their own hair, putting on clothes, asking strangers questions. One daughter in Girl Scouts: learning sales skills by approaching strangers to sell cookies. Independence builds confidence and problem-solving abilities for small and big life challenges. Skill 3: Self-belief / Self-worth Tied to independence. Helps children navigate life and career successfully. Robin asks about teaching self-belief Context: Mandy's kids are 6 and 9 years old (two girls). Mandy's approach to teaching self-belief Combination of: Words Mandy uses when speaking to them. Words encouraged for the children to use about themselves. Example of shifting praise from appearance to effort/creativity: Instead of "You look so pretty today" → "Wow, I love the creativity that you put into your outfit." Reason: "The voice that I use, the words that I choose, they're gonna receive that and internalize it." Corrective, supportive language when children doubt themselves: Example: Child says, "I'm so stupid, I can't figure out this math problem." Mandy responds: "Oh wow. That's something that we can figure out together. And the good news is I know that you are so smart and that you can figure this out, so let's work together to figure it out." Asking reflective questions to understand their inner thoughts: Example: "What's it like to be you? What's it like to be inside your head?" Child's response: "Well, you worry a lot," which Mandy found telling and insightful. Emphasizes coming from a place of curiosity to check in on a child's self-worth and self-identity journey. 04:30 Professional Journey and Role of VP of Internal Comms Robin sets up the question about professional development Notes Mandy has mentored lots of people. Wants to understand: Mandy's role as VP of Internal Communications (what that means). How she supports others professionally. How her own professional growth has been supported. Context: Robin just finished a workshop for professionals on selling themselves, asking for promotions, and stepping forward in their careers. Emphasizes that she doesn't consider herself an expert but learns from conversations with experienced people like Mandy. Mandy explains her role and path Career path has been "a winding road." Did not study internal communications; discovered it later. Finds her job fun, though sometimes stressful: "I often think I might have the most fun job in the world. I mean, it, it can be stressful and it can't, you know, there are days where you wanna bang your head against the wall, but by and large, I love my job. It is so fun." Internal communications responsibility: Translate company strategy into something employees understand and are excited about. Example: Translate business plan for 2026 to 2,800 employees. Team's work includes: Internal emails. PowerPoints for global town halls. Speaking points for leaders. Infusing fun into company culture via intranet stories (culture, customers, innovation). Quick turnaround on timely stories (example: employee running seven marathons on seven continents; story created within 24 hours). Storytelling and theater skills are key: Coaching leaders for presentations: hand gestures, voice projection, camera presence. Mandy notes shared theater background with Robin: "You and I are both thespian, so we come from theater backgrounds." Robin summarizes role Sounds like a mix of HR and sales: supporting employee development while "selling" them on the company. Mandy elaborates on impact and mentorship Loves making a difference in employees' lives by giving information and support. Works closely with HR (Human Resources) to: Provide learning and development opportunities. Give feedback. Help managers improve. Wrote a book to guide navigating internal careers and relationships. Mentorship importance: Mentors help accelerate careers in any organization. Mandy's career journey Started studying apparel merchandising at Indiana University (with Kelley School of Business minor). Shifted from pre-med → theater → journalism → apparel merchandising. Took full advantage of career fairs and recruiter networking at Kelley School of Business. "The way that I've gotten jobs is not through applying online, it's through knowing somebody, through having a relationship." First role at Gap Inc.: rotational Retail Management Training Program (RMP). Some roles enjoyable, some less so; realized she loved the company even if some jobs weren't ideal. Mentor influence: Met Bobby Stillton, president of Gap Foundation, who inspired her with work empowering women and girls. Took a 15-minute conversation with Bobby and got an entry-level communications role. Career growth happened through mentorship, internal networking, and alignment with company she loved. Advice for her daughters (Robin's question) Flash-forward perspective: post-college or early career. How to start a career in corporate / large organizations: Increase "luck surface area" (exposure to opportunities). Network in a savvy way. Ask at the right times. Build influence to get ahead. Mentorship and internal relationships are key, not just applying for jobs online. 12:15 Career Advice and Building Relationships Initial advice: "Well first I would say always call your mom. Ask for advice. I'm right here, honey, anytime." Three keys to success: Relationships Expand your network. "You say yes to everything, especially early in your career." Examples: sit in on meetings, observe special projects, help behind the scenes. Benefits: Increases credibility. Shows people you can do anything. Reputation Build a reputation as confident, qualified, and capable. Online presence: Example: LinkedIn profile—professional, up-to-date, connected to network. Be a sponsor/advocate for your company (school, office, etc.). Monthly posts suggested: team photos, events, showing responsibility and trust. Offline reputation: Deliver results better than expected. "Deliver on the things that you said you were gonna do and do a better job than people expected of you." Resilience Not taught from books—learned through experience. Build resilience through preparation, not "fake it till you make it." Preparation includes: practicing presentations, thinking through narratives, blocking time before/after to collect thoughts and connect with people. "Preparation is my headline … that's part of what creates resilience." Mandy turns the question to Robin: "I wanna ask you too, I mean, Robin, you, you live and breathe this every day too. What do you think are the keys to success?" Robin agrees with preparation as key. Value of service work: Suggests working in service (food, hospitality) teaches humility. "I've never met somebody I think even ever in my life who is super entitled and profoundly ungrateful, who has worked a service job for any length of time." Robin's personal experience with service work: First business: selling pumpkins at Robin's Pumpkin Patch (age 5). Key formative experience: running Robin's Cafe (2016, opened with no restaurant experience, on three weeks' notice). Ran the cafe for 3 years, sold it on Craigslist. Served multiple stakeholders: nonprofit, staff (~15 employees), investors ($40,000 raised from family/friends). Trial by fire: unprepared fi

    2h 47m

  7. JAN 21

    Why the Best Leaders are Better Storytellers with Robin P. Zander

    Welcome back to Snafu with Robin P. Zander. In this episode, I'm doing something a little different: I step into the guest seat for a conversation with one of my good friends, Andrew Bartlow, recorded for the People Leader Accelerator podcast alongside Jessica Yuen. We dive into storytelling, identity, and leadership — exploring how personal experiences shape professional influence. The conversation begins with a reflection on family and culture, from the Moroccan textiles behind me, made by my mother, to the influence of my father's environmental consulting work. These threads of personal history frame my lifelong fascination with storytelling, persuasion, and coalition-building. Andrew and Jessica guide the discussion through how storytelling intersects with professional growth. We cover how early experiences — like watching Lawrence of Arabia at a birthday sleepover — sparked curiosity about adventure, influence, and human connection, and how these interests evolved into a career focused on organizational storytelling and leadership. We explore practical frameworks, including my four-part story model (Setup → Change → Turning → Resolution) and the power of "twists" to create momentum and memorability. The episode also touches on authentic messaging, the role of vulnerability in leadership, and why practicing storytelling in everyday life—outside high-stakes moments—builds confidence and executive presence over time. Listeners will hear lessons from a lifetime of diverse experiences: running a café in the Mission District, collaborating with BJ Fogg on behavioral change, building Zander Media, and applying storytelling to align teams and organizations. We also discuss how authenticity and personal perspective remain a competitive advantage in an age of AI-generated content. If you're curious about how storytelling, practice, and presence intersect with leadership, persuasion, and influence, this episode is for you. And for more insights on human connection, organizational alignment, and the future of work, check out Snafu, my weekly newsletter on sales, persuasion, and storytelling here, and Responsive Conference, where we explore leadership, work, and organizational design here. Start (0:00) Storytelling & Identity Robin introduces Moroccan textiles behind him Made by his mother, longtime practicing artist Connects to Moroccan fiancée → double meaning of personal and cultural Reflection on family influence Father: environmental consulting firm Mother: artist Robin sees himself between their careers Early Fascination with Storytelling Childhood obsession with Morocco and Lawrence of Arabia Watched 4-hour movie at age 6–7 Fascinated by adventure, camels, storytelling, persuasion Early exposure shaped appreciation for coalition-building and influence Identity & Names Jess shares preference for "Jess" → casual familiarity Robin shares professional identity as "Xander" Highlights fluidity between personal and professional selves Childhood Experiences & Social Context Watching Lawrence of Arabia at birthday sleepover Friends uninterested → early social friction Andrew parallels with daughters and screen preferences Childhood experiences influence perception and engagement Professional Background & Storytelling Application Robin's long involvement with PeopleTech and People Leader Accelerator Created PLA website, branding, documented events Mixed pursuits: dance, media, café entrepreneurship Demonstrates applying skills across domains Collaboration with BJ Fogg → behavioral change expertise Storytelling as Connection and Alignment Robin: Storytelling pulls from personal domains and makes it relevant to others Purpose: foster connection → move together in same direction Executive relevance: coalition building, generating momentum, making the case for alignment Andrew: HR focus on connection, relationships, alignment, clarity Helps organizations move faster, "grease the wheels" for collaboration Robin's Credibility and Experience in Storytelling Key principle: practice storytelling more than listening Full-time entrepreneur for 15 years First business at age 5: selling pumpkins Organized neighborhood kids in scarecrow costumes to help sell Earned $500 → early lessons in coalition building and persuasion Gymnastics and acrobatics: love of movement → performance, discipline Café entrepreneurship: Robin's Cafe in Mission District, SF Started with 3 weeks' notice to feed conference attendees Housed within a dance studio → intersection of dance and behavioral change First experience managing full-time employees Learned the importance of storytelling for community building and growth Realized post-sale missed opportunity: storytelling could have amplified success Transition to Professional Storytelling (Zander Media) Lessons from cafe → focus on storytelling, messaging, content creation Founded Zander Media (2018) Distributed small team, specializes in narrative strategy and video production Works with venture-backed companies and HR teams to tell stories internally and externally Provides reps and depth in organizational storytelling Why Storytelling Matters for Organizations Connects people, fosters alignment Enables faster movement toward shared goals Storytelling as a "powerful form of connection" What Makes a Good Story Robin: frameworks exist, but ultimately humans want: Education, entertainment, attention Sustained attention (avoid drift to TikTok, distractions) Framework examples: Hero's Journey (Joseph Campbell) → 17 steps Dan Harmon's 8-part structure → simplified version of Hero's Journey Robin's preferred model: 4-part story structure (details/examples forthcoming) The Power of the Twist, and Organizational Storytelling Robin's Four-Part Story Model Core idea: stories work best when they follow a simple arc Setup → Change → Turning (twist/reveal) → Resolution Goal: not rigid frameworks, but momentum, surprise, payoff The "Turning" (Twist) as the Sticky Moment Pixar example via Steve Jobs and the iPod Nano Setup: Apple's dominance, market context, long build-up Choice point: Option A: just reveal the product Option B (chosen): pause + curiosity Turning: the "tiny jeans pocket" question Reveal: iPod Nano pulled from the pocket Effect: entertainment, disruption, memorability Key insight: The twist creates pause, delight, and attention This moment often determines whether a story is remembered Why Flat Stories Fail Example (uninspiring): "I ran a cafe → wanted more marketing → now I run Xander Media" Improved arc with turning: Ran a cafe → wanted to do more marketing → sold it on Craigslist → built Xander Media Lesson: A reveal or risk creates narrative energy The Four Parts in Practice Setup The world as it is (Bilbo in the Shire) Change Something disrupts the norm (Gandalf arrives) Turning Twist, reveal, or surprise (the One Ring) Resolution Payoff and return (Bilbo back to the Shire) How to Use This as a Leader Don't force stories into frameworks Look at stories you already tell Identify where a disruption, surprise, or reveal could live Coalition-building lens Stories should move people into shared momentum Excitement → flow → aligned action Storytelling Mediums for HR & Organizations Employer brand ≠ separate from company brand Should be co-owned by HR and marketing Brand clarity attracts the right people, repels the wrong ones Strong brands are defined by: Who they are Who they are not Who they're for and not for HR vs Marketing: The Nuance Collaboration works only if: HR leads on audience and truth Marketing supports execution, not control Risk: Marketing optimizes for customers, not employees HR understands attraction, retention, culture fit Storytelling at the Individual Level No one is "naturally" good or bad at storytelling It's reps, not talent Practical advice: Know your ~15 core stories (career, company, turning points) Practice pauses like a comedian Notice when people lean in Opinionated Messaging = Effective Messaging Internal storytelling should: Be clear and opinionated Repel as much as it attracts Avoid: Corporate vanilla Saying a lot without saying anything Truth + Aspirational Truth Marketing and storytelling are a mix of: What is actually true What the organization is becoming Being "30% more honest" builds trust Including flaws and tradeoffs Example: budget brands, Southwest, Apple's office-first culture Why This Works Opinions create personality Personality creates stickiness Stickiness creates memory, alignment, and momentum Authenticity as the last real advantage We're flooded with AI-generated content (video, writing, everything) Humans are extremely good at sensing what feels fake Inauthenticity is easier to spot than ever One of the few remaining advantages: Be true to the real story of the person or organization Not polished truth — actual truth What makes content feel "AI-ish" AI can generate volume fast Books, posts, stories in minutes What it can't replicate: Personal specificity Why a story matters to you What an experience felt like from the inside Lived moments Running a café Growing into leadership What lasts: Personal story lesson learned relevance to this reader relevance to this relationship What content will win long-term Vulnerability Not oversharing, but real ex

    58 min

  8. JAN 14

    Investing In People, AI, and the Future of Work with Virginie Raphael

    In this episode, I'm joined by Virginie Raphael — investor, entrepreneur, and philosopher of work — for a wide-ranging conversation about incentives, technology, and how we build systems that scale without losing their humanity. We talk about her background growing up around her family's flower business, and how those early experiences shaped the way she thinks about labor, value, and operating in the real economy. That foundation carries through to her work as an investor, where she brings an operator's lens to evaluating businesses and ideas. We explore how incentives quietly shape outcomes across industries, especially in healthcare. Virginie shares why telehealth was a meaningful shift and what needs to change to move beyond one-to-one, supply-constrained models of care. We also dig into AI, venture capital, and the mistakes founders commonly make today — from hiring sales teams too early to raising too much money too fast. Virginie offers candid advice on pitching investors, why thoughtful cold outreach still works, and how doing real research signals respect and fit. The conversation closes with a contrarian take on selling: why it's not a numbers game, how focus and pre-qualification drive better outcomes, and why knowing who not to target is just as valuable as finding the right people. If you're thinking about the future of work, building with intention, or navigating entrepreneurship in an AI-accelerated world, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, join us at Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th, where we'll keep exploring incentives, human skills, and what it really takes to build things that last. Start (0:00) Reflections on Work, Geography, and AI Adoption Virginie shares what she's noticing as trends in work and tech adoption: Geographic focus: she's excited to explore AI adoption outside traditional tech hubs. Examples: Atlanta, Nashville, Durham, Utah, Colorado, Georgia, North Carolina, parts of the Midwest. Rationale: businesses in these regions may adopt AI faster due to budgets, urgency, and impatience for tech that doesn't perform. "There are big corporates, there are middle and small businesses in those geos that have budget that will need the tech… and/or have less patience, I should say, for over-hub technologies that don't work." She notes that transitions to transformational technology never happen overnight, which creates opportunities: "We always underestimate how much time a transition to making anything that's so transformational… truly ubiquitous… just tends to think that it will happen overnight and it never does." Robin adds context from her own experience with Robin's Cafe and San Francisco's Mission District: Observed cultural and business momentum tied to geography Mentions Hollywood decline and rise of alternative media hubs (Atlanta, Morocco, New Jersey) Virginie reflects on COVID's impact on workforce behaviors: Opened a "window" to new modes of work and accelerated change: "There were many preexisting trends… but I do think that COVID gave a bit of a window into what was possible." Emphasis on structural change: workforce shifts require multi-year perspective and infrastructure, not just trends. Investor, Mission, and Capital Philosophy Virginie clarifies she is an investor, not a venture capitalist, resisting labels and prestige metrics. "I don't call myself a venture capitalist… I just say investor." Focuses on outcomes over categories, investing in solutions that advance the world she wants to see rather than chasing trendy tech sectors. "The outcome we want to see is everyone having the mode of work that suits them best throughout their lives." Portfolio themes: Access: helping people discover jobs they wouldn't otherwise know about. Retention / support: preventing workforce dropouts, providing appropriate healthcare, childcare, and caregiving support. "Anyone anywhere building towards that vision is investible by us." Critiques traditional venture capital practices: Raising VC money is not inherently a sign of success. "Raising from a VC is just not a sign of success. It's a milestone, not the goal." Concerned about concentration of capital into a few funds, leaving many founders unsupported. "There's a sense… that the work we do commands a lot less power in the world, a lot less effectiveness than holding the capital to hire that labor." Emphasizes structural, mission-driven investing over chasing categories: Invests in companies that prevent workforce dropouts, expand opportunity, and create equitable access to meaningful work. Portfolio strategy is diversified, focusing on infrastructure and long-term impact rather than quick wins. "We've tracked over time what type of founders and what type of solutions we attract and it's exactly the type of deal that we want to see." Reflects on COVID and societal trends as a lens for her investment thesis: "COVID gave a bit of a window into what was possible," highlighting alternative modes of work and talent distribution that are often overlooked. Labor, Ownership, and Durable Skills Virginie reframes the concept of labor, wages, and ownership: "The word labor in and of itself… is something we need to change." Interested in agency and ownership as investment opportunities, especially for small businesses transitioning to employee ownership. "For a very long time… there's been a shift towards knowledge work and how those people are compensated. If you go on the blue-collar side… it's about wages still and labor." Emphasizes proper capitalization and alignment of funds to support meaningful exits for smaller businesses, rather than chasing massive exits that drive the VC zeitgeist. AI fits into this discussion as part of broader investment considerations. Childhood experience in family flower business shaped her entrepreneurial and labor perspective: Selling flowers, handling cash, and interacting with customers taught "durable skills" that persisted into adulthood. "When I think of labor, I think of literally planting pumpkin plants… pulling espresso shots… bringing a customer behind the counter." Observing her father start a business from scratch instilled risk-taking and entrepreneurial spirit. "Seeing my dad do this when I was seven… definitely part of that." Skills like sales acumen, handling money, and talking to adults were early lessons that translated into professional confidence. Non-linear career paths and expanding exposure to opportunity: Concerned that students often see only a narrow range of job options: "Kids go out of high school, they can think of three jobs, two of which are their parents' jobs… Surely because we do a poor job exposing them to other things." Advocates for creating more flexible and exploratory career pathways for young people and adults alike. Durable skills and language shaping work: Introduction of the term "durable skills" reframes how competencies are understood: "I use it all the time now… as a proof point for why we need to change language." Highlights the stigma and limitations of words like "soft skills" or "fractional work": Fractional roles are high-impact and intentional, not temporary or inferior. "Brilliant people who wanna work on a fractional basis… they truly wanna work differently… on a portfolio of things they're particularly good at solving." Work in Progress uses language intentionally to shift perceptions and empower people around work. Cultural significance of language in understanding work and people: Virginie notes that language carries stigma and meaning that shapes opportunities and perception. References Louis Thomas's essays as inspiration for attention to the nuance and power of words: He'll take the word discipline and distill it into its root, tie it back into the natural world." Robin shares a personal anecdote about language and culture: "You can always use Google Translate… but also it's somebody learning DIA or trying to learn dharia, which is Moroccan Arabic… because my fiance is Moroccan." Human-Positive AI, Process, and Apprenticeship Virginie emphasizes the value of process over pure efficiency, especially in investing and work: "It's not about the outcome often, it's about the process… there is truly an apprenticeship quality to venture and investing." Using AI to accelerate tasks like investment memos is possible, but the human learning and iterative discussion is critical: "There's some beauty in that inefficiency, that I think we ought not to lose." AI should augment human work rather than replace the nuanced judgment, particularly in roles requiring creativity, judgment, and relationship-building: "No individual should be in a job that's either unsafe or totally boring or a hundred percent automatable." Introduces the term "human-positive AI" to highlight tools that enhance human potential rather than simply automate tasks: "How do we use it to truly augment the work that we do and augment the people?" Project selection and learning as a metric of value: Virginie evaluates opportunities not just on outcome, but what she will learn and who she becomes by doing the work: "If this project were to fail, what would I still learn? What would I still get out of it?" Cites examples like running a one-day SNAFU conference to engage people in human-centered selling principles: "Who do I become as a result of doing that is always been much more important to me than the concrete outcomes of this thing going well." AI Bubble, Transition, and Opportunity Discusses the current AI landscape and the comparison to past tech bubbles: "I think we're in an AI bubble… 1999 was a tech bubble and Amaz

    53 min
See All (100)

5
out of 5
15 Ratings

About

Welcome to Snafu, a podcast about sales, persuasion, and work. Amidst all the change going on in the world today, "durable" skills are often the most resilient. Snafu is a podcast for entrepreneurs, freelancers, and ambitious professionals who need to sell – but aren't quite comfortable yet. Robin Zander has spent more than 20 years tackling things he doesn't know how to do. From starting a restaurant in three weeks without any prior restaurant experience to performing as a self-taught acrobat with the San Francisco Opera, Robin has built his life and career around learning new things. But growth isn't all upside. Trying new things comes with lots of failures. On Snafu, Robin sits down with authors and entrepreneurs to talk about a more human approach to sales, persuasion, and work.

Information

  • Creator
    Robin P. Zander
  • Years Active
    2015 - 2026
  • Episodes
    100
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Robin Peter Zander
  • Show Website
    Snafu w/ Robin Zander