Snafu w/ Robin Zander

Robin P. Zander
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Welcome to Snafu, a podcast about sales, persuasion, and work. Amidst all the change going on in the world today, "durable" skills are often the most resilient. Snafu is a podcast for entrepreneurs, freelancers, and ambitious professionals who need to sell – but aren't quite comfortable yet. Robin Zander has spent more than 20 years tackling things he doesn't know how to do. From starting a restaurant in three weeks without any prior restaurant experience to performing as a self-taught acrobat with the San Francisco Opera, Robin has built his life and career around learning new things. But growth isn't all upside. Trying new things comes with lots of failures. On Snafu, Robin sits down with authors and entrepreneurs to talk about a more human approach to sales, persuasion, and work.

  1. 2D AGO

    Why Human Experience Still Matters In The Age Of AI featuring Sara Loncka

    In this episode, I'm joined by Sara Loncka – experiential learning designer, leadership strategist, and CEO of Experience Institute – for a conversation about why human experience may matter more than ever in an increasingly AI-driven world. Sara's work focuses on leadership development, experiential learning, and organizational transformation, but this conversation goes far beyond workplace training. It's about what happens when people become disconnected from themselves, each other, and the environments shaping their lives – and why intentional experiences can interrupt the routines, assumptions, and identity patterns we often move through unconsciously. At the center is Sara's distinction between "little e" experiences and "Big E" Experiences. Little e experiences are the stories, habits, and assumptions people accumulate over time. Big E Experiences are intentionally disruptive moments that create reflection, discomfort, curiosity, and transformation. We talk about why growth often requires stepping outside familiar environments, embracing beginner mindsets, and placing ourselves in situations where certainty and competence disappear. We also explore the origins of Experience Institute, why traditional corporate training often fails, how experiential learning creates lasting behavioral change, and the challenge of building organizations that remain deeply human as technology accelerates. Along the way, Sara reflects on founder transitions, reinvention, identity, discomfort, and how even small experiences can quietly reshape the direction of a person's life. Toward the end, the conversation becomes more personal as Sara shares how pregnancy and motherhood have challenged her relationship with control, embodiment, and uncertainty – becoming a different kind of transformational experience entirely. If you're thinking about leadership, personal growth, reinvention, or how to stay connected to what feels deeply human in rapidly changing times, this conversation is for you.

    48 min

  2. MAY 6

    Incorruptible: How Great Companies Stay Great featuring Eric Ries

    In this episode, I'm joined by Eric Ries – entrepreneur, founder of the Lean Startup movement, and author of The Lean Startup and Incorruptible – for a conversation about what it actually takes to build companies that last. Eric's work has shaped how startups and large organizations approach innovation, but this conversation goes deeper than experimentation. It's about what happens after you succeed and why so many good companies slowly lose their way. At the center is a concept he calls financial gravity: the invisible force that pushes organizations toward short-term decisions, often at the expense of customers, employees, and long-term value. We talk about how this pressure shows up everywhere – from venture-backed startups to public companies – and why even well-intentioned leaders struggle to resist it. We dig into real examples, from Costco and Patagonia to lesser-known companies that have built what Eric calls "incorruptible" systems – organizations designed to hold their values under pressure. That means not just strong culture, but governance, ownership, and structures that reinforce the mission over time. We explore: Where things break.  Why founders lose control.  Why incentives drift.  Why "best practices" often lead to worse outcomes.  And why resisting that pull requires more than good intentions. Along the way, we touch on AI, alternative ownership models, and the growing tension between innovation and accountability, especially as new technologies are being built inside increasingly concentrated power structures. If you're building a company, thinking about long-term value, or trying to create something that doesn't fall apart as it scales, this podcast is for you.

    55 min

  3. APR 22

    How Cults Work with Ellen Huet

    In this episode, I'm joined by Ellen Huet – journalist at Bloomberg and author of Empire of Orgasm – for a conversation about power, belonging, and the sometimes blurry line between influence and manipulation. Ellen has spent over a decade covering Silicon Valley – from AI startups to the personalities shaping the industry. Empire of Orgasm explores OneTaste, the sexual wellness company and alleged sex cult. Throughout the book, Ellen also explores the broader question of how high-demand groups actually work. At the center of this book is the uncomfortable idea that cults aren't a binary; they exist on a spectrum. And, as we discuss in depth, many of the dynamics we associate with extreme groups – belonging, shared language, mission-driven work, charismatic leadership – show up in everyday organizations more than we'd like to admit. We talk about what she learned reporting on OneTaste, from the power of social pressure and status to the subtle ways people are influenced without ever being explicitly told what to do. Ellen breaks down how "consent" gets distorted in these environments, and why the ability to freely say "no" is the clearest line between healthy influence and coercion. We also explore the overlap between cult dynamics and modern business – especially in tech. From grand mission statements to founder mythology, there's often an emotional pull that goes beyond logic. Ellen shares how these forces show up in AI companies today, and why the belief that you're "part of something world-changing" can be both motivating and dangerous. Along the way, we get into sales, persuasion, and the tension between helping someone and overriding their agency. Where is the line between influence and manipulation?

    1h 17m

  4. APR 15

    Building Community that Drives Business with Joshua Zerkel

    In this episode, I'm joined by Joshua Zerkel – community strategist, former Evernote ambassador turned community leader, and author of The Community Code – for a conversation about what it really takes to build community that drives business outcomes. Joshua's path is anything but typical. He started as a power user and advocate, writing productivity books about Evernote before eventually joining the company and helping scale its community as it grew from 100M to 200M users. From there, he went on to build and lead community at Asana, turning it into a global program spanning forums, ambassadors, experts, and hundreds of events – all tied to real pipeline impact. His work centers on a simple but often misunderstood idea: community is just relationships at scale. We talk about why community is so often undervalued inside organizations, how to translate its impact to business leaders, and the constant tradeoffs between depth and reach. We dig into the messy realities of building community inside companies – from navigating trust during Evernote's privacy-policy crisis to responding to backlash and actually listening when your users push back. Joshua shares what breaks when companies stop listening, why "personas" often miss the point, and how to design community programs around real people instead. We also explore the role of events as a community engine – how to think about formats, why in-person still matters, and what separates meaningful engagement from surface-level activity. Along the way, we touch on the fine line between community and cult dynamics, and what companies like Peloton get right when it comes to creating real connection. If you're building community, trying to prove its value, or thinking about how relationships translate into growth, this conversation is for you.

    47 min

  5. APR 8

    How to Move People with Lindsey Caplan

    .In this episode, I'm joined by Lindsey Caplan — organizational psychologist, former Hollywood screenwriter, and upcoming author — for a conversation about creativity, communication, and how people and groups are actually moved. Lindsey's path is anything but linear. She started her career on TV and film sets in Los Angeles, working on shows like Malcolm in the Middle, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and The Amazing Race. From there, she transitioned into learning and development at companies like DreamWorks Animation, Zendesk, and Credit Karma, eventually stepping fully into organizational design and change work at The Gathering Effect. Her new book, Moved — coming March 2027 — explores the forces that shape human behavior: what moves us, how we can move others, and why pull, not push, is the most sustainable path to influence. We talk about why the book took nine years to write, what she learned about the psychology of groups, and why "being seen and heard" is at the heart of all meaningful change. We dig into the creative process, including the messy parts: identity shifts, losing and regaining a creative voice, and what it takes to translate an idea that lives in your head into something that lands with other people. Lindsey shares how her storytelling roots shape her work today — from understanding stakes and motivation to designing experiences that create real engagement, not just compliance. We also explore the gap between knowing and doing, why so many best-practice books fail to stick inside organizations, and how leaders can communicate in ways that create ownership instead of resistance. If you're curious about influence, the craft of writing, or how to move people without pressure, this conversation is for you.

    51 min

  6. APR 4

    Founder-Led Sales with Gagan Biyani - Snafu Conference 2026

    This conversation between Robin Zander and Gagan Biyani, founder of Maven and early contributor to Udemy, Lyft, and Spread, explores the intersection of growth, education, and entrepreneurship. The session begins with a brief mindfulness exercise for the audience before diving into Biyani's career and his perspective on growth. He distinguishes growth from traditional marketing by emphasizing that growth is a systematic approach that integrates product, analytics, and user behavior to drive scalable results, rather than solely focusing on branding or messaging. Biyani also addresses the ethics of growth, noting that while manipulation is unavoidable in communication, respecting users' agency and providing genuine value is key. Fear or guilt about "manipulating" others often hinders action, whereas ethical influence fosters trust and long-term engagement. Drawing from his own experiences, he underscores the importance of providing optimism and clarity, rather than relying on fear-based tactics, in both marketing and education. Education remains a central theme of Biyani's work. At Udemy, he helped pioneer live, video-based courses to make learning more accessible online, though he notes systemic barriers prevented it from fully replacing traditional college education. Maven continues this mission with cohort-based programs led by industry experts, helping professionals rapidly gain practical skills. Biyani highlights the transformative potential of AI in upskilling, explaining that while AI won't replace human teachers, it significantly expands access and efficiency for learners across industries. Reflecting on his broader entrepreneurial journey, Biyani shares lessons from Lyft and Spread. Lyft demonstrated the power of timing and product-market fit, while Spread taught him that execution alone is not enough – understanding the market and being "right" about demand is essential. Across all ventures, he emphasizes pattern recognition, balancing exploration with focused execution, and learning from successes and failures alike. Ultimately, Biyani's philosophy is to tackle challenging problems that align with personal strengths, respect users' agency, and leverage insight and experimentation to create meaningful impact.

    1 hr

  7. FEB 25

    How to Sell Yourself – A Workshop

    Robin Zander hosted a Snafu webinar for the Sidebar community on non-sales selling—think self-promotion for career transitions, freelancers, entrepreneurs, and product people. The goal: learn to "sell yourself" without the ick factor.   Participants shared fears: follow-ups feel intimidating, sales feels slimy, and success seems like a numbers game. Robin reframed it: selling is really about enrollment—being a chief evangelist for your work, not begging for attention.   Drawing on stories from his childhood pumpkin patch, his time as a personal trainer (where desperation lost him clients), and opening Robin's Cafe in San Francisco (raising $40k, serving multiple stakeholders, training staff with Danny Meyer's principles), he showed the difference between selling from need vs. service. Long-term success comes from genuine connection, curiosity, optimism, and passion.   Attendees explored their "authentic attitude" and reflected on times self-promotion felt good versus slimy. Exercises included mapping all the people who benefit from your work—employees, customers, managers, mentees, community—and practicing generosity in selling (a "Miracle on 34th Street" mindset: help customers even if it means sending them elsewhere).   In Q&A, Robin tackled: Asking for promotions as modeling for others, especially women and minorities Persistence in follow-ups (yes, emailing Mark Benioff 53 times counts) Relationship-based enterprise selling Avoiding fear-based AI marketing by knowing who you serve and what problem you solve Recommended reading: Setting the Table (Danny Meyer), Unreasonable Hospitality (Will Guidara), The New Strategic Selling.   Robin also shared upcoming Snafu conference details (March 5, Oakland Museum of California) and reminded everyone: Snafu = situation normal; all f****d up. 00:00 Start 01:06 Audience Fears About Selling Robin Zander welcomes 93 participants to the webinar Notes the session is interactive with exercises planned Encourages participants to drop questions in chat or interrupt him Last 15–20 minutes reserved for questions Robin introduces himself briefly Focuses on storytelling as a tool for self-promotion Shares experience as a community builder Runs a conference called Responsive since 2016 (not Snafu) Tools, structures, and company cultures for resilient organizations Two-day event each September on the future of work Focus on building resilience in organizations Observations on rapid change Technology and work-life changes happening at a fast pace Questions about resilience in individuals Traits needed in careers, personal relationships, professional relationships Ability to stay resilient through change Robin frames his expertise Emphasizes his strength in asking questions and fostering honest conversations Labels himself a reluctant salesperson Not the world's leading expert on self-promotion or selling Key lessons from research and interviews Two buckets matter in business and life: Example: Sidebar community forming coalitions for learning and action Operational excellence: being competent and at least as good as others Promotion/enrollment/sales: standing up, saying what you want, building coalitions Started interviewing people about influence and persuasion Started a weekly newsletter called Snafu Written by hand, not AI Shares lessons from his life and others about self-promotion and resilience Focus on courage to take action: raising hand, offering something valuable Core characteristics of self-promotion and selling yourself Connecting with others: art of connection Courage to ask: inspired by Amanda Palmer's TED Talk and book The Art of Asking Opposes traditional "always be closing" sales mentality Advocates for simply asking for what you want Current work mostly involves storytelling for large companies Clients include Supersonic, Airbnb, Zappos, and others 12:25 Service as the Core Principle Robin introduces the concept of storytelling for self-promotion Stories used to: Get promotions Build coalitions Propel career or organizational growth Emphasizes turning personal, career, or company stories into "commercials" Focus of today's talk: self-promotion with impact Core principle: service Showing up from a place of helping others Through helping others, also helping oneself Distinguishes between sleazy salespeople and effective self-promoters Childhood anecdote: Robin's pumpkin patch Tended plants all summer, learned responsibility and care Harvested pumpkins and sold them using a small red tin box labeled "money" Ran "Robin's Pumpkin Patch" for five to seven years At age five, father had him plant pumpkin seeds Engaged neighborhood kids for fun, collaborative promotion Explained product (pumpkins) enthusiastically to potential buyers Used scarecrow costumes and creative gestures to attract attention Lessons learned from pumpkin patch: Authentic enthusiasm creates value Helping people do what they were already inclined to do Early experience of earning and serving simultaneously Self-promotion is most effective when it's service-driven, not manipulative Applying childhood lesson to career and business Asking for a raise Persuading companies to choose one service over another Promoting oneself or others (e.g., Evan, web developer) Key principle: approach self-promotion from delight and service, not need or fear Authentic enthusiasm as foundation for: Interactive exercise for participants Not influenced by sleep deprivation or stress Could be inspired by childhood or adult experiences Opposite of fear; personal and unique for each participant Question posed: what is your authentic attitude when self-promoting? Examples shared from participants: Curiosity Passion Inspiration Service to others Observation Possibility Insight Value Helping others Creativity Belief in serendipity Optimism Key takeaway from exercise and story Promoting from delight, enthusiasm, and service Promoting from need or fear Two versions of self-promotion: Effective self-promotion aligns with authenticity and enthusiasm, creating value for others while advancing oneself 18:36 Gym Job and Needy Selling Robin shares the next story and sets up the next exercise Gym culture is sales-heavy Initial motivation: love of fitness, desire to help people Quickly realizes environment incentivizes personal trainers to sell aggressively Timeframe: ~20 years later, at age 20, moved to San Francisco First post-college job: personal trainer in gyms Early experience at gyms Key lesson from early failure Selling from need feels gross Promoting oneself from fear or desperation leads to poor results Recognizes similarity to unwanted sales calls received personally First authentic success in self-promotion Worked at Petro and World's Gym in San Francisco, Pilates instructor Owner confronted Robin after two weeks: no clients, potential clients being lost to others Threatened termination by Friday if no clients acquired Robin froze under pressure, approached clients but with needy, desperate energy Outcome: fired by Friday, left gym Encounters man in pain on Valencia Street, offers help as personal trainer Approach comes from genuine care, desire to serve Leads to three-year working relationship, consistent sessions, good income Next client: world-famous photographer Michael Light at UCSF swimming pool Client comes from natural connection, not pushy salesmanship Dichotomy observed: Pushy, need-based self-promotion → freeze, poor results Service-oriented self-promotion → natural connections, sustained relationships Exercise for participants Prompt: identify two moments: One time self-promoting felt slimy → what were you doing? One time self-promoting felt good → what were you doing differently? Two-minute reflection / chat participation Participant reflections/examples Slimy examples: Interviewing for a job during layoffs, giving desperate energy Selling P&L at a hyperscaler Selling computers and printers in UK post-college Sales emails getting ghosted Feeling inauthentic or performative, taking advantage of someone Good examples: Offering services out of care and love rather than ROI Showing impact of work to junior child Knowing services add real value and solve a challenge Being clear on what the other person needs Key takeaway Self-promotion feels different depending on intent and knowledge Slimy → desperate, inauthentic, unclear value to recipient Authentic → service-driven, clear value, connection-focused Effective self-promotion combines knowing your value and serving others, not just pushing for personal gain 25:35 Miracle on 34th Street Lesson Feeling good in self-promotion comes from genuinely helping, solving problems, and sharing information Santa Claus hired at Macy's to hold kids and give candy canes, but real goal: persuade parents to buy from Macy's Santa instead sends parents to competitor to truly serve them Macy's manager initially furious Outcome: customers feel genuinely served, return praising Macy's, become loyal fans Robin references Miracle on 34th Street (original version) Key insight: providing real value, even if it benefits someone else, eventually returns value to you "Put enough bread across the water, eventually good things come back" Participant reflections Slimy: knowing audience expects judgment, catering to them for approval Good: giving the gift of knowledge, providing service freely Takea

    1 hr

  8. FEB 18

    Your Best Meeting Ever with Rebecca Hinds, PhD

    In this episode, I'm joined by Rebecca Hinds — organizational behavior expert and founder of the Work AI Institute at Glean — for a practical conversation about why meetings deteriorate over time and how to redesign them. Rebecca argues that bad meetings aren't a people problem — they're a systems problem. Without intentional design, meetings default to ego, status signaling, conflict avoidance, and performative participation. Over time, low-value meetings become normalized instead of fixed. Drawing on her research at Stanford University and her leadership of the Work Innovation Lab at Asana, she shares frameworks from her new book, Your Best Meeting Ever, including: The four legitimate purposes of a meeting: decide, discuss, debate, or develop The CEO test for when synchronous time is truly required How to codify shared meeting standards Why leaders must explicitly give permission to leave low-value meetings We also explore leadership, motivation, and the myth that kindness and high standards are opposites. Rebecca explains why effective leaders diagnose what drives each individual — encouragement for some, direct challenge for others — and design environments that support both performance and belonging. Finally, we talk about AI and the future of work. Tools amplify existing culture: strong systems improve, broken systems break faster. Organizations that redesign how work happens — not just what tools they use — will have the advantage. If you want to run better meetings, lead with more clarity, and rethink how collaboration actually happens, this episode is for you. You can find Your Best Meeting Ever at major bookstores and learn more at rebeccahinds.com.  00:00 Start 00:27 Why Meetings Get Worse Over Time Robin references Good Omens and the character Crowley, who designs the M25 freeway to intentionally create frustration and misery. They use this metaphor to illustrate how systems can be designed in ways that amplify dysfunction, whether intentionally or accidentally. The idea is that once dysfunctional systems become normalized, people stop questioning them. They also discuss Cory Doctorow's concept of enshittification, where platforms and systems gradually decline as organizational priorities override user experience. Rebecca connects this pattern directly to meetings, arguing that without intentional design, meetings default to chaos and energy drain. Over time, poorly designed meetings become accepted as inevitable rather than treated as solvable design problems. Rebecca references the Simple Sabotage Field Manual created by the Office of Strategic Services during World War II. The manual advised citizens in occupied territories on how to subtly undermine organizations from within. Many of the suggested tactics involved meetings, including encouraging long speeches, focusing on irrelevant details, and sending decisions to unnecessary committees. The irony is that these sabotage techniques closely resemble common behaviors in modern corporate meetings. Rebecca argues that if meetings were designed from scratch today, without legacy habits and inherited norms, they would likely look radically different. She explains that meetings persist in their dysfunctional form because they amplify deeply human tendencies like ego, status signaling, and conflict avoidance. Rebecca traces her interest in teamwork back to her experience as a competitive swimmer in Toronto. Although swimming appears to be an individual sport, she explains that success is heavily dependent on team structure and shared preparation. Being recruited to swim at Stanford exposed her to an elite, team-first environment that reshaped how she thought about performance. She became fascinated by how a group can become greater than the sum of its parts when the right cultural conditions are present. This experience sparked her long-term curiosity about why organizations struggle to replicate the kind of cohesion often seen in sports. At Stanford, Coach Lee Mauer emphasized that emotional wellbeing and performance were deeply connected. The team included world record holders and Olympians, and the performance standards were extremely high. Despite the intensity, the culture prioritized connection and belonging. Rituals like informal story time around the hot tub helped teammates build relationships beyond performance metrics. Rebecca internalized the lesson that elite performance and strong culture are not opposing forces. She saw firsthand that intensity and warmth can coexist, and that psychological safety can actually reinforce high standards rather than weaken them. Later in her career at Asana, Rebecca encountered the company value of rejecting false trade-offs. This reinforced a lesson she had first learned in swimming, which is that many perceived either-or tensions are not actually unavoidable. She argues that organizations often assume they must choose between performance and happiness, or between kindness and accountability. In her experience, these are false binaries that can be resolved through better design and clearer expectations. She emphasizes that motivated and engaged employees tend to produce higher quality work, making culture a strategic advantage rather than a distraction. Kindness versus ruthlessness in leadership Robin raises the contrast between harsh, fear-based leadership styles and more relational, positive leadership approaches. Both styles have produced winning teams, which raises the question of whether success comes because of the leadership style or despite it. Rebecca argues that resilience and accountability are essential, regardless of tone. She stresses that kindness alone is not sufficient for high performance, but neither is harshness inherently superior. Effective leadership requires understanding what motivates each individual, since some people thrive on encouragement while others crave direct challenge. Rebecca personally identifies with wanting to be pushed and appreciates clarity when her work falls short of expectations. She concludes that the most effective leaders diagnose motivation carefully and design environments that maximize both growth and performance. 08:51 Building the Book-Launch Team: Mentors, Agents, and Choosing the Right Publisher Robin asks Rebecca about the size and structure of the team she assembled to execute the launch successfully. He is especially curious about what the team actually looked like in practice and how coordinated the effort needed to be. He also asks about the meeting cadence and work cadence required to bring a book launch to life at that level. The framing highlights that writing the book is only one phase, while launching it is an entirely different operational challenge. Rebecca explains that the process felt much more organic than it might appear from the outside. She admits that at the beginning, she underestimated the full scope of what a book launch entails. Her original motivation was simple: she believed she had a valuable perspective, wanted to help people, and loved writing. As she progressed deeper into the publishing process, she realized that writing the manuscript was only one piece of a much larger system. The operational and promotional dimensions gradually revealed themselves as a second job layered on top of authorship. Robin emphasizes that writing a book and publishing a book are fundamentally different jobs. Rebecca agrees and acknowledges that the publishing side requires a completely different skill set and infrastructure. The conversation underscores that authorship is creative work, while publishing and launching require strategy, coordination, and business acumen. Rebecca credits her Stanford mentor, Bob Sutton, as a life changing influence throughout the process. He guided her step by step, including decisions around selecting a publisher and choosing an agent. She initially did not plan to work with an agent, but through guidance and reflection, she shifted her perspective. His mentorship helped her ask better questions and approach the process more strategically rather than reactively. Rebecca reflects on an important mindset shift in her career. Earlier in life, she was comfortable being the big fish in a small pond. Over time, she came to believe that she performs better when surrounded by people who are smarter and more experienced than she is. She describes her superpower as working extremely hard and having confidence in that effort. Because of that, she prefers environments where others elevate her thinking and push her further. This philosophy became central to how she built her book launch team. As Rebecca learned more about the moving pieces required for a successful campaign, she became more intentional about who she wanted involved. She sought the best not in terms of prestige alone, but in terms of belief and commitment. She wanted people who would go to bat for her and advocate for the book with genuine enthusiasm. She noticed that some organizations that looked impressive on paper were not necessarily the right fit for her specific campaign. This led her to have extensive conversations with potential editors and publicists before making decisions. Rebecca developed a personal benchmark for evaluating partners. She paid attention to whether they were willing to apply the book's ideas within their own organizations. For her, that signaled authentic belief rather than surface level marketing support. When Simon and Schuster demonstrated early interest in implementing the book's learnings internally, it stood out as meaningful alignment. That commitment suggested they cared about the substance of the work, not just the p

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About

Welcome to Snafu, a podcast about sales, persuasion, and work. Amidst all the change going on in the world today, "durable" skills are often the most resilient. Snafu is a podcast for entrepreneurs, freelancers, and ambitious professionals who need to sell – but aren't quite comfortable yet. Robin Zander has spent more than 20 years tackling things he doesn't know how to do. From starting a restaurant in three weeks without any prior restaurant experience to performing as a self-taught acrobat with the San Francisco Opera, Robin has built his life and career around learning new things. But growth isn't all upside. Trying new things comes with lots of failures. On Snafu, Robin sits down with authors and entrepreneurs to talk about a more human approach to sales, persuasion, and work.

Information

  • Creator
    Robin P. Zander
  • Years Active
    2015 - 2026
  • Episodes
    100
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Robin Peter Zander
  • Show Website
    Snafu w/ Robin Zander

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