The Wicked Truth: Third Things First

Suzanne Ross
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  • ARTS

Author, educator, and nonprofit founder Suzanne Ross sits down to explore the complexities of human nature with scholars, artists and activists who are giving their all to cultivate peaceful, compassionate communities. These dialogues focus on art as a "third thing" which peacebuilders use to bend the imagination away from violence. These conversations reflect decades of partnership and lessons learned in the pursuit of conflict transformation, healed trauma, and true peace. At the heart of each exchange is a distressing insight, a "wicked truth" about human society: When we become convinced of our own righteousness, "good people" can do some really, really bad things. Come join a growing community of peacebuilders, educators, authors, and changemakers willing to be seen as "wicked" for their commitment to empathy, nonviolence, and transformative learning. Let’s create a more compassionate world!

Episodes

  1. 6D AGO

    Forgotten Graves Are Reconciling Black and White Churches: Dr. Julia Robinson Moore

    What happens when you discover your church sits beside an enslaved burial ground? That the descendants of those enslaved people still live just blocks away? In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with Rev. Dr. Julia Robinson Moore about her courageous work telling the truth about slavery, lynching, and racial violence, while building a shared future rooted in peace and reconciliation. Dr. Moore, an ordained Presbyterian pastor and associate professor of religion at UNC Charlotte, shares how a childhood encounter with the Ku Klux Klan and later scholarly work on lynching led her into hands-on peacebuilding in Charlotte, North Carolina. She explains how her work with Preserving Sacred Spaces helps Black and White descendants come together around segregated and often unmarked burial grounds on former plantations and church properties. You’ll hear how her team uses neuroscience, spiritual practices like the Immanuel approach, and community-based design to help people build the emotional capacity to hold hard conversations, stay relational, and collaborate on memorials that “mark the unmarked.” Julia also describes a current project at Providence Presbyterian Church and Matthews-Murkland Presbyterian Church, where descendants are raising funds to complete a powerful memorial honoring graves that have been neglected for generations.​ If you’re wondering how to confront a painful history without getting stuck in rivalry, shame, or despair, this conversation offers concrete practices, stories of hope, and a powerful “third thing”: sacred ground that calls divided communities back together. 👉 Learn more and support Julia’s work: https://www.mooregraceministries.com 📰 Sign up for the Third Things First newsletter! thewickedtruth.com 💡 Discover more about mimetic theory, and how it shapes Julia’s work: https://www.ravenfoundation.org/rene-girard/

    29 min

  2. FEB 23

    The Grimmerie as Sacred Text: Wicked and Queering Vocation with Dr. Brian Ammons, Part 2

    Suzanne and Dr. Brian Ammons continue explore Wicked through the unique lens of sacred text, unearthing themes of hope, disillusionment, and the power of ancient wisdom. They also emphasize personal resonances with Elphaba's journey and the impact of cultural context on representation. Finally, they discuss the role of art in opening space for tough conversations and for reconnecting with our own hope and joy.

    24 min

  3. FEB 9

    Defying the Gravity of Going It Alone: Wicked and Queering Vocation with Dr. Brian Ammons, Part 1

    In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne and Rev. Dr. Brian Ammons discuss the queer elements of Wicked, how its story pushes back against oppressive systems ... But also, how Elphaba's journey can help us claim the gift of otherness. They delve into "Defying Gravity" as a metaphor for rejecting old narratives and embracing otherness as a source of unique insight and perspective that still needs a strong community to flourish.

    21 min

  4. JAN 26

    Dialogue Is Not Enough: Dr. David Anderson Hooker on Changing the Story of Conflict

    Dr. David Anderson Hooker joins Third Things First to explore narrative transformation, conflict transformation, peacebuilding, and racial reconciliation through the lens of stories vs. narratives, victim narratives, and the practice of mediating conflict through a “third thing”. Host Suzanne Ross talks with the peacebuilder, mediator, and theologian about why dialogue across difference is necessary, but not sufficient for real change in conflicted communities. Drawing on decades of work in racial reconciliation, community building, law, and ministry, Dr. Hooker explains how narratives—not just stories—shape our sense-making, our systems, and what we believe is possible. He distinguishes between stories (told in hindsight) and deeper narrative frames that can trap us in victimhood or open pathways to courage, inclusion, and transformation. You’ll hear powerful examples from his work in trauma healing, reflections on how competing Christian narratives fuel exclusion or belonging, and how “third things” like film or art safely surface our different ways of seeing. ​ If you care about peacebuilding, theology, social justice, or simply changing the story you live inside, this conversation offers language, practices, and hope! Follow Dr. Hooker, and the Wicked Truth, for more resources like this. Dr. Hooker's website, Counter Stories Consulting: https://counterstoriesconsulting.com/ Purchase Dr. Hooker's book, "The Little Book of Transformative Community Conferencing": https://shorturl.at/dCcLv Read more about Dr. Hooker's work through his page at the KROC Institute at the University of Notre Dame: https://shorturl.at/RlzEK Follow us for more updates! http://thewickedtruth.com/ And Don't forget to sign up for the Wicked Truth newsletter! https://thewickedtruthsr.substack.com/

    36 min
  • 4 Episodes

About

Author, educator, and nonprofit founder Suzanne Ross sits down to explore the complexities of human nature with scholars, artists and activists who are giving their all to cultivate peaceful, compassionate communities. These dialogues focus on art as a "third thing" which peacebuilders use to bend the imagination away from violence. These conversations reflect decades of partnership and lessons learned in the pursuit of conflict transformation, healed trauma, and true peace. At the heart of each exchange is a distressing insight, a "wicked truth" about human society: When we become convinced of our own righteousness, "good people" can do some really, really bad things. Come join a growing community of peacebuilders, educators, authors, and changemakers willing to be seen as "wicked" for their commitment to empathy, nonviolence, and transformative learning. Let’s create a more compassionate world!

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