The Wicked Truth: Third Things First

Suzanne Ross
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Author, educator, and nonprofit founder Suzanne Ross sits down to explore the complexities of human nature with scholars, artists and activists who are giving their all to cultivate peaceful, compassionate communities. These dialogues focus on art as a "third thing" which peacebuilders use to bend the imagination away from violence. These conversations reflect decades of partnership and lessons learned in the pursuit of conflict transformation, healed trauma, and true peace. At the heart of each exchange is a distressing insight, a "wicked truth" about human society: When we become convinced of our own righteousness, "good people" can do some really, really bad things. Come join a growing community of peacebuilders, educators, authors, and changemakers willing to be seen as "wicked" for their commitment to empathy, nonviolence, and transformative learning. Let’s create a more compassionate world!

Episodes

  1. 6D AGO

    Blessing in the Freefall: Anger, Grief, and Joy with Andrew DeCort, p2

    In part 2 of their conversation, Suzanne Ross talks with theologian and peacebuilder Dr. Andrew DeCort about moving through shame and rage into what he calls the “purple sphere” of grief—and discovering blessing and joy on the other side. Andrew, author and founder of the Neighbor Love Movement and the Reframe newsletter, shares from his recent arrest with 90+ faith leaders in a nonviolent protest against ICE in Minneapolis and reflects on how our culture’s “glee in other people’s grief” corrodes our souls and our politics. Drawing on James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Andrew and Suzanne explore what it means to resist othering without becoming otherers ourselves. Together they trace a kind of emotional “stratigraphy”: Green shame, that sinking sense of not being enoughRed anger, the fire that can be destructive or creativePurple grief, the terrifying freefall where “why finds no answer”Blue joy, the ambient delight that appears when we love what is truly goodYou’ll hear practical Neighbor Love practices for metabolizing anger, inhabiting grief safely in trusted relationships, and blessing even those we oppose: ICE officers, political leaders, and ourselves. Andrew models a radical blessing practice inspired by Bonhoeffer: “Despite everything, you belong to God.” If you’re feeling consumed by political rage, tempted to dehumanize those you see as the problem, or struggling to believe that you belong to God, this conversation offers an honest, embodied, and hopeful path forward. 👉 Follow Andrew’s work: Website: https://andrew-decort.comSubstack (Reframe / Stop & Think): https://andrewdecort.substack.com⏱ Chapters (approx.) 2:14 Green shame, red anger, and the descent into purple grief 4:28 Glee in others’ grief and DHS’s Christmas deportation memes 7:17 Fear as the ether around shame, anger, and grief 8:44 Grief must be witnessed: vulnerability and safe relationships 9:13 Pain as superpower: circles of exclusion becoming solidarity 12:19 Nonviolence as creative response vs. reactive conformity 14:12 Not othering the otherers and blessing our enemies 15:11 Bonhoeffer’s embodied blessing and belonging to God 19:55 Blue joy: loving what is good in nonviolent resistance 21:23 Kneeling in the cold: ambient joy at the Minneapolis ICE protest 24:04 Wicked’s ambiguous fall as an image of grief’s “unlimitedness” 26:11 How to follow Andrew and his upcoming book

    28 min

  2. MAR 23

    The Dissident Theologian Arrested for Loving His Neighbor | Third Things First w/ Andrew DeCort, p1

    Scholar, peacebuilder, and “dissident theologian” Andrew DeCort joins us from his bathtub to discuss his arrest at an anti-ICE protest in Minneapolis, and his discovery that anger is “a fire that can make beauty.” In this extraordinary conversation, Andrew and Suzanne explore the emotional landscape of working for justpeace in a world that rewards division. From the shame that tells us we don't belong, to the anger packed with information, to the grief that opens us to something deeper, this episode maps the inner journey that peacebuilders rarely talk about in public. In this episode, we explore: • What makes someone a “dissident theologian” — and why it's not something you choose • Andrew's arrest with 97 faith leaders at a nonviolent ICE protest in Minneapolis • Neighbor love as an abolition movement against othering • The emotional layers of peace work: shame → anger → grief → merriment • Why anger is like fire, and can forge as well as destroy • Moral emergencies: when belonging itself is in danger • James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, Thich Nhat Hanh, and the wisdom traditions that light the path • How Elphaba from Wicked mirrors the real-world tension between righteous anger and destructive rage ABOUT OUR GUEST Andrew DeCort, PhD (University of Chicago), is a scholar of religious and political ethics, founder of the Institute for Faith and Flourishing, and co-founder of the Neighbor-Love Movement in Ethiopia, which has reached over 20 million people. He has taught at Wheaton College, Ethiopian Graduate School of Theology, and Bonn University. His latest book, Reviving the Golden Rule: How the Ancient Ethic of Neighbor Love Can Heal the World, is available now. Learn more: andrew-decort.com Get the book: https://www.ivpress.com/reviving-the-golden-rule?srsltid=AfmBOorvSFynljVabN7DZA3iZYHHnAQ-te7Lsymq_Mn5tisYELftIFUu TIMESTAMPS 00:00 — Introduction 02:42 — What makes a "dissident theologian"? 05:42 — The Neighbor Love Movement and abolishing othering 09:40 — Why othering persists: the benefits of division 10:40 — The emotional landscape of peace work 11:38 — Elphaba, Wicked, and righteous anger 12:06 — Nonviolent direct action in Minneapolis and moral emergencies 14:24 — Elphaba's green, shame, and James Baldwin 15:21 — Shame as the chemical weapon of othering 16:17 — What is a moral emergency? 18:00 — Anger as fire: Audre Lorde, Richard Schwartz, and speaking FOR your anger 19:00 — A ceremony of burning: the father's desk, the dissertation, the running shoes 20:30 — The Fire Arts Center and George Floyd: blacksmiths as peacebuilders 21:34 — From shame to anger to grief: the colors of peace work LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE 🎧 Apple Podcasts: Third Things First on Apple Podcasts 🎧 Spotify: Third Things First on Spotify 📰 Substack: thewickedtruthsr.substack.com 👻 Ghost: the-wicked-truth.ghost.io 🔔 Subscribe to this channel for new episodes every other week!

    23 min

  3. MAR 9

    Forgotten Graves Are Reconciling Black and White Churches: Dr. Julia Robinson Moore

    What happens when you discover your church sits beside an enslaved burial ground? That the descendants of those enslaved people still live just blocks away? In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with Rev. Dr. Julia Robinson Moore about her courageous work telling the truth about slavery, lynching, and racial violence, while building a shared future rooted in peace and reconciliation. Dr. Moore, an ordained Presbyterian pastor and associate professor of religion at UNC Charlotte, shares how a childhood encounter with the Ku Klux Klan and later scholarly work on lynching led her into hands-on peacebuilding in Charlotte, North Carolina. She explains how her work with Preserving Sacred Spaces helps Black and White descendants come together around segregated and often unmarked burial grounds on former plantations and church properties. You’ll hear how her team uses neuroscience, spiritual practices like the Immanuel approach, and community-based design to help people build the emotional capacity to hold hard conversations, stay relational, and collaborate on memorials that “mark the unmarked.” Julia also describes a current project at Providence Presbyterian Church and Matthews-Murkland Presbyterian Church, where descendants are raising funds to complete a powerful memorial honoring graves that have been neglected for generations.​ If you’re wondering how to confront a painful history without getting stuck in rivalry, shame, or despair, this conversation offers concrete practices, stories of hope, and a powerful “third thing”: sacred ground that calls divided communities back together. 👉 Learn more and support Julia’s work: https://www.mooregraceministries.com 📰 Sign up for the Third Things First newsletter! thewickedtruth.com 💡 Discover more about mimetic theory, and how it shapes Julia’s work: https://www.ravenfoundation.org/rene-girard/

    29 min

  4. FEB 23

    The Grimmerie as Sacred Text: Wicked and Queering Vocation with Dr. Brian Ammons, Part 2

    Suzanne and Dr. Brian Ammons continue explore Wicked through the unique lens of sacred text, unearthing themes of hope, disillusionment, and the power of ancient wisdom. They also emphasize personal resonances with Elphaba's journey and the impact of cultural context on representation. Finally, they discuss the role of art in opening space for tough conversations and for reconnecting with our own hope and joy.

    24 min

  5. FEB 9

    Defying the Gravity of Going It Alone: Wicked and Queering Vocation with Dr. Brian Ammons, Part 1

    In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne and Rev. Dr. Brian Ammons discuss the queer elements of Wicked, how its story pushes back against oppressive systems ... But also, how Elphaba's journey can help us claim the gift of otherness. They delve into "Defying Gravity" as a metaphor for rejecting old narratives and embracing otherness as a source of unique insight and perspective that still needs a strong community to flourish.

    21 min

  6. JAN 26

    Dialogue Is Not Enough: Dr. David Anderson Hooker on Changing the Story of Conflict

    Dr. David Anderson Hooker joins Third Things First to explore narrative transformation, conflict transformation, peacebuilding, and racial reconciliation through the lens of stories vs. narratives, victim narratives, and the practice of mediating conflict through a “third thing”. Host Suzanne Ross talks with the peacebuilder, mediator, and theologian about why dialogue across difference is necessary, but not sufficient for real change in conflicted communities. Drawing on decades of work in racial reconciliation, community building, law, and ministry, Dr. Hooker explains how narratives—not just stories—shape our sense-making, our systems, and what we believe is possible. He distinguishes between stories (told in hindsight) and deeper narrative frames that can trap us in victimhood or open pathways to courage, inclusion, and transformation. You’ll hear powerful examples from his work in trauma healing, reflections on how competing Christian narratives fuel exclusion or belonging, and how “third things” like film or art safely surface our different ways of seeing. ​ If you care about peacebuilding, theology, social justice, or simply changing the story you live inside, this conversation offers language, practices, and hope! Follow Dr. Hooker, and the Wicked Truth, for more resources like this. Dr. Hooker's website, Counter Stories Consulting: https://counterstoriesconsulting.com/ Purchase Dr. Hooker's book, "The Little Book of Transformative Community Conferencing": https://shorturl.at/dCcLv Read more about Dr. Hooker's work through his page at the KROC Institute at the University of Notre Dame: https://shorturl.at/RlzEK Follow us for more updates! http://thewickedtruth.com/ And Don't forget to sign up for the Wicked Truth newsletter! https://thewickedtruthsr.substack.com/

    36 min
  • 6 Episodes

About

Author, educator, and nonprofit founder Suzanne Ross sits down to explore the complexities of human nature with scholars, artists and activists who are giving their all to cultivate peaceful, compassionate communities. These dialogues focus on art as a "third thing" which peacebuilders use to bend the imagination away from violence. These conversations reflect decades of partnership and lessons learned in the pursuit of conflict transformation, healed trauma, and true peace. At the heart of each exchange is a distressing insight, a "wicked truth" about human society: When we become convinced of our own righteousness, "good people" can do some really, really bad things. Come join a growing community of peacebuilders, educators, authors, and changemakers willing to be seen as "wicked" for their commitment to empathy, nonviolence, and transformative learning. Let’s create a more compassionate world!

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