Third Party Therapy

Mike Day
  • 0.0 (0)
  • Business
  • Biweekly Series

A bi-weekly podcast about the world of third party risk. Many of us are in the same position, facing ever evolving challenges, trying to keep up with new regulations and laws and it often feels like we are struggling to keep up. I want to really open up the conversation on this topic by speaking with practitioners to discuss key topics, understand what worked well and what went wrong, what people struggle with and to bring in ideas from other industries too. I’ll be asking the questions that folks may feel silly or uncomfortable asking too. So, why not join me for a series of informal interviews and discussions to really open up the conversation for the third party risk community?

See All

  1. Episode 1

    Third Party Therapy - Layla White - Beyond Third Parties: Mapping Fourth-Party Risk and Early-Stage Suppliers

    Beyond Third Parties: Mapping Fourth-Party Risk and Early-Stage Suppliers – with Layla White (TechPassport) Episode overview Season 2 opens with a practical deep dive into one of the hardest problems in modern third-party risk management: understanding what sits beyond your immediate suppliers. Mike is joined by Layla White, founder of TechPassport, to unpack why fourth- and fifth-party dependencies remain opaque, how early-stage suppliers change the risk profile, and why traditional questionnaires and web-scraping approaches struggle to keep up with today’s supply chains. The conversation blends lived experience from financial services procurement and vendor management with a grounded look at how supply chain mapping actually works in the wild, where outages, cloud concentration, geopolitics, and cyber incidents collide. What you’ll hear in this episode Why fourth- and fifth-party risk is still a blind spot for many organisationsThe limits of questionnaires and AI/web-scraped data for mapping supply chainsHow to identify critical dependencies deeper in the supply chainThe problem of hidden concentration risk (especially with cloud and shared infrastructure)Why small suppliers and early-stage tech firms introduce different resilience risksThe importance of validating supplier-provided data rather than guessing from public sourcesHow outages propagate through unseen dependenciesWhy supply chain risk now stretches beyond cyber into resilience, data, ESG, and modern slaveryWhere regulation is pushing firms to understand and evidence extended dependenciesKey takeaways Supply chain risk is no longer a third-party problem. The real fragility often sits further down the chain.Public signals and scraped data are useful clues, not ground truth. Critical dependencies usually only emerge when suppliers confirm them directly.Concentration risk is rarely obvious until something breaks. Mapping dependencies before an incident is the difference between response and surprise.Early-stage suppliers need structure and support to meet enterprise expectations, not just scrutiny.Effective TPRM is a system of approaches, not a single tool. Questionnaires, live data, mapping, and supplier engagement all have different strengths.Guest bio Layla White is the founder of TechPassport, a platform focused on improving how organisations gather and manage supplier information, map extended supply chains, and engage early-stage technology providers. Layla previously worked in financial services procurement and vendor management, where she experienced first-hand the friction, delays, and blind spots that exist in traditional third-party onboarding and supply chain visibility. Who this episode is for Third-Party Risk and Operational Resilience leadersProcurement and Vendor Management teamsCyber and Cloud risk practitionersRisk, Compliance, and Resilience professionalsAnyone grappling with fourth-party visibility, concentration risk, or supplier onboarding in complex ecosystemsListen to the episode 🎧 Full episode: https://thirdpartytherapy.com Tags / themes TPRM, Fourth-Party Risk, Supply Chain Mapping, Concentration Risk, Operational Resilience, Early-Stage Suppliers, Cloud Dependencies, Cyber Resilience

  2. Episode 2

    Third Party Therapy - Mo Randeree - TPRM at Speed: Using AI to Bridge the Gap Between Risk and Procurement

    Episode Summary: How do you build a world-class Third-Party Risk Management (TPRM) function in a digital-first, fast-paced environment? In this episode of Third Party Therapy, Mike Day sits down with Mo Randeree from Atom Bank. Mo shares his journey from a PwC auditor to a TPRM leader, discussing how to break down the traditional silos between Procurement, Risk, and Resilience. The highlight of this episode is Mo’s deep dive into the practical use of Google Gemini (AI) to automate risk assessments, moving the dial from "policing" the business to "partnering" with it. 🕒 Timestamps 00:00 – Introduction: Managing risk at the speed of a digital bank 03:45 – Mo’s Background: Stumbling into TPRM via PwC 12:10 – The Integrated Operating Model: Merging Procurement, TPRM, and Resilience 20:30 – Speed to Market: Why "Check-the-Box" compliance doesn't work in FinTech 28:50 – AI in Action: Using Google Gemini to solve the "data mountain" problem 37:15 – Shifting the Culture: Moving from a "No" function to a "Business Enabler" 45:40 – Proactive Supplier Management: Having hard conversations about control gaps 53:00 – Closing thoughts and advice for the next generation of risk leaders 💡 Key TakeawaysThe "One-Stop-Shop" Model: Discover how Atom Bank integrates procurement and risk into a single lifecycle, ensuring risk is considered at the start of a project, not as a final hurdle.Leveraging Generative AI: Mo explains the specific prompts and processes used with Google Gemini to digest complex supplier documents, allowing a lean team to achieve massive scale.Bridging the Gap: Practical tips on how to align the conflicting goals of Procurement (speed/cost) and Risk (safety/compliance).Relationship-Driven Risk: Why the most effective TPRM tool isn't a piece of software, but the ability to build trust across the organization.🔗 Connect & ResourcesOfficial Website: thirdpartytherapy.comJoin the Community: Sign up for our mailing list to receive our "AI in TPRM" guide.Guest Info: Connect with Mo Randeree on LinkedIn to follow his work at Atom Bank.Search & SEO Keywords: #TPRM #ThirdPartyRisk #AtomBank #GoogleGemini #GenerativeAI #RiskManagement #ProcurementStrategy #FinTech #BusinessResilience #ThirdPartyTherapy #SupplyChainRisk

  3. Episode 3

    Third Party Therapy - Clarence Chio | The Pace of TPRM: Faster Horses or a New Way to Travel?

    Is the pace of change in Third-Party Risk Management (TPRM) keeping up with the complexities of the modern marketplace? In this episode of Third Party Therapy, Mike Day sits down with Clarence Chio, founder of Coverbase. Clarence, a Stanford-trained engineer and cybersecurity veteran, shares his unique perspective on the "assessor fatigue" felt by both sides of the table. They dive deep into how AI can move beyond just making existing processes "faster horses" and instead fundamentally change how trust is established between organizations. 🕒 Timestamps00:00 – Introduction: Is TPRM falling behind the market? 03:45 – Clarence’s Journey: From Stanford to Anti-Money Laundering (AML) 12:10 – The "Assessor’s Dilemma": Why busy work doesn't always equal risk reduction 21:30 – The Pace of Change: Why traditional assessments are static in a dynamic world 30:50 – AI & Coverbase: Moving from manual checklists to automated trust 38:15 – The "Faster Horse" Problem: Re-imagining the future of TPRM 47:40 – Elevating the Job: How automation allows risk managers to focus on strategy 55:30 – Closing thoughts: Mapping out the next 5 years of TPRM 💡 Key TakeawaysThe Problem with Static Assessments: Clarence explains why an annual review is often obsolete the moment it's finished and how the pace of software updates requires a new approach to monitoring.Assessor Fatigue: Insight into why critical vendors feel "put through the wringer" and how this friction actually hinders true risk transparency.AI as an Efficiency Engine: How Coverbase uses AI to bridge the gap, allowing for a more holistic and real-time understanding of vendor security postures.Rethinking the Function: Why the industry needs to stop asking for "faster horses" (doing the same manual tasks quicker) and start looking for the "automobile" (fundamentally changing the workflow).🔗 Connect & ResourcesOfficial Website: thirdpartytherapy.comGuest Info: Learn more about Clarence Chio and Coverbase at Clarence Chio | LinkedInSearch & SEOKeywords: #TPRM #ThirdPartyRisk #ClarenceChio #Coverbase #Cybersecurity #AI #RiskAutomation #VendorManagement #SupplyChainSecurity #ThirdPartyTherapy #Innovation

  4. Episode 4

    Third Party Therapy - Prof. Richard Wilding OBE | The Academic Lens on Supply Chain Resilience

    How do you build a supply chain that doesn't just survive disruption but thrives through it? Mike Day is joined by Professor Richard Wilding OBE, Emeritus Professor of Supply Chain Strategy, to bridge the gap between academic theory and frontline risk management. Professor Wilding shares his expert perspective on why the "Cost to Serve" must be applied to risk, how to segment vendors effectively, and why "Robustness" is no longer enough in a volatile global economy. 🕒 Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction: Bringing the Academic Lens to TPRM.03:45 – Richard’s journey: From Engineering and the "Brit Industry" to OBE.14:20 – Why "Efficiency" is a dangerous goal for modern supply chains.25:10 – Resilience vs. Robustness: What’s the difference?38:45 – The Cost to Serve: Why you shouldn't treat every vendor the same.52:30 – Advice for the next generation of supply chain leaders. SEO Keywords: #SupplyChain #Logistics #Procurement #RichardWilding #RiskManagement #Resilience #Strategy #OBE

  5. Episode 5

    Third Party Therapy - Dave Rusher - Is TPRM Actually Mature? AI, Cross-Sector Lessons & Getting Started Right

    In this episode of Third Party Therapy, Mike Day is joined by Dave Rusher, Chief Customer Officer at Aravo, one of the longest-standing dedicated TPRM technology platforms. With 15 years at Aravo and decades of experience across the Americas, UK, Europe and Asia-Pacific, Dave brings a genuinely global perspective on how third party risk management has evolved — and where it still has growing up to do. They cover the maturity landscape across financial services, pharma and manufacturing, the real-world AI use cases that are already delivering results, and the three most common mistakes organisations make when implementing TPRM technology. Whether you're just starting your TPRM journey or trying to evolve an existing programme, this episode is packed with practical insight. Topics covered in this episode: How TPRM maturity differs across financial services, pharma and manufacturing — and why FS and pharma led the wayThe difference between a US "compliance-driven" approach and a more principles-based European oneWhy manufacturing actually has a head start on Nth-party visibility and ESG — and what FS can learn from itThe cross-sector skills that are genuinely portable (anti-bribery/anti-corruption, cybersecurity) versus those that aren'tThe consolidation vs. diversification tension in TPRM technology ecosystemsWhere AI is delivering tangible results today — and why cyber/infosec assessment automation is the most mature use caseWhy getting AI approved internally is often the biggest blocker to adoption in regulated industriesHow shadow AI usage by employees is compressing organisations' due diligence timelinesDave's three biggest TPRM implementation pitfalls: overestimating maturity, overcomplicating scope, and over-relying on technologyWhy iterative, objectives-first implementation beats the traditional ERP-style "big bang" rolloutHow Aravo is building AI capabilities along two parallel tracks — for customers who are ready and those who aren't yet Timestamps: 00:00 — Introduction 02:00 — Dave's background and 15 years at Aravo 04:30 — How TPRM maturity varies by sector and region 10:00 — Manufacturing vs. financial services: who's ahead and where 15:30 — Cross-sector lessons: what's portable, what isn't 20:00 — Technology trends: consolidation vs. proliferation 25:00 — AI in TPRM: hype vs. reality 31:00 — The biggest AI use case delivering results today 37:00 — Why internal AI approval processes are the real bottleneck 43:00 — AI as a "tool not a transformation" — Mike's take 47:00 — Aravo's AI development roadmap 53:00 — The three TPRM implementation mistakes to avoid 58:00 — Where to start: outcomes-first, iterative delivery

  6. Episode 6

    Third Party Therapy - Chloe Dellow - Walk Before You Run: AI, TPRM Maturity and the Build vs Buy Decision

    What does a successful TPRM transformation actually look like — and why do so many organisations get it wrong? Mike sits down with Chloe Dellow, TPRM and GRC specialist at Diligent, who brings nearly eight years of experience helping organisations build, mature and optimise their third party risk programmes. Chloe offers a frank, experience-led perspective on why technology should enable a well-defined programme — not compensate for an absent one. In this episode: 🔍 Why most organisations should sort their operating model before they even open an RFP ⚠️ The "magpie effect" — chasing features before understanding your own problem 🤖 How AI is entering TPRM in phases, from SOC 2 document review to continuous monitoring 🔨 Why the build vs buy debate is back — and the hidden risks of going DIY 🧩 Why AI risk isn't really "emerging", and what that reframing means for your framework ✈️ Which industries actually do supply chain visibility well (aerospace and automotive may surprise you) 🔄 The biggest mistake organisations make when switching platforms — and how to avoid rewriting history Whether you're just starting out or looking to optimise a mature programme, this is a practical and honest conversation about what good looks like in TPRM today. Timestamps 00:00 Introduction 02:15 Chloe's background — from JavaScript to TPRM advisory 06:30 How TPRM technology has evolved 11:00 Regulatory pressure and programme maturity 16:45 Helping clients through the "where do I start" problem 23:00 The magpie effect and the risk of over-configuration 29:30 AI adoption in TPRM — phased approaches and real use cases 38:00 Build vs buy — and the shadow AI risk 45:00 Is AI really an emerging risk? 51:30 Supply chain visibility — who gets it right? 58:00 What goes wrong in TPRM transformations 1:04:00 Where to start before you go to market Guest: Chloe Dellow, Diligent Host: Mike Day 🔔 Subscribe for more episodes | 🌐 thirdpartytherapy.com | 📧 Sign up to the mailing list #TPRM #ThirdPartyRisk #GRC #RiskManagement #AI #OperationalResilience #DORA #Compliance #Podcast

  7. Episode 7

    Third Party Therapy - Jeffrey Wheatman - Questionnaires, Scores and Shadow AI: Rethinking Third‑Party Cyber Risk

    Mike Day is joined by Jeffrey Wheatman, Senior Vice President, Cyber Risk Strategist at Black Kite, for a wide-ranging conversation on third-party cyber risk management (TPRM). They cover why questionnaires alone are no longer enough, how dynamic monitoring and cyber risk quantification are changing vendor oversight, why storytelling is the key to getting business buy-in, and how AI — both as a business tool and an attacker's weapon — is reshaping the third-party risk landscape. GuestJeffrey Wheatman, Senior Vice President, Cyber Risk Strategist at Black Kite. Previously spent 15 years as a research analyst at Gartner, built a security programme at Martha Stewart Omnimedia, and ran his own consulting practice. Joined Black Kite four years ago. In this episode[01:02] Jeffrey's route into cybersecurity — from managing a New York hardware store to Novell NetWare training, consulting, Martha Stewart Omnimedia, 15 years at Gartner, and now Black Kite.[04:42] How third-party risk management has evolved: from contract/legal sign-off, to security questionnaires, to outside-in vendor scores, to today's risk-based, intelligence-led approach.[07:11] Why not all vendors matter equally — tiering vendors so effort is focused on the ones that actually pose material risk.[09:45] Two UK-rooted supply chain incidents: the KNP Logistics ransomware attack that put the firm out of business, and the Jaguar Land Rover cyberattack that reportedly affected UK GDP.[11:17] Has the market moved beyond questionnaires? Financial services and insurance are further ahead; small niche vendors and giant vendors (e.g. Google) both present unique challenges.[13:47] The case for cyber risk quantification — Black Kite's OpenFAIR-based model and the three risk scenarios it prioritises: data loss, ransomware, and vendor non-delivery.[15:30] Translating cyber risk into business language: business impact analysis, stakeholder relationships, and a real anecdote about an aerospace manufacturer that stockpiled a critical component ahead of a supplier's ransomware attack.[23:04] Jeffrey's simplified framing for engaging executives: money coming in, money going out, and who's accountable if something goes wrong.[24:05] Scepticism around third-party risk scores, the case for methodology transparency ("open the raincoat"), and a credit-score analogy for contextualising vendor risk.[28:00] The shift from "assess everyone, monitor a few" to "monitor everyone, assess dynamically" — including examples from a large retail customer monitoring 100,000 vendors and an insurer streamlining onboarding.[30:00] Why questionnaires won't disappear entirely (audit and compliance still require them), and caution around AI-generated questionnaire responses and compliance reports.[33:08] Discovering AI in the supply chain — shadow AI, the idea of an "AI Bill of Materials," and why AI adoption often bypasses IT-led vendor review (e.g. HR or marketing tools).[40:01] A discussion of emerging agentic AI security research tools referenced in the episode, and concerns about a rising volume of reported vulnerabilities outpacing organisations' ability to triage them.[43:47] Attack chaining — how several medium-severity vulnerabilities can be combined for privilege escalation, changing how vulnerabilities should be prioritised.[46:47] A cautionary anecdote about a casino network reportedly compromised via an internet-connected aquarium thermostat.[47:54] Where CISOs should prioritise investment: governance and clear ownership, business impact analysis, a defined vendor onboarding process, and continuous monitoring — illustrated with the Change Healthcare/UnitedHealthcare ransomware case.[52:17] Regulatory pressure shaping third-party risk: DORA (EU/UK financial services), NIST, ISO, and HIPAA/NHS-equivalent requirements.[53:28] Closing thoughts on AI and human-in-the-loop working, including a quote Jeffrey attributes to Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang about AI and jobs.Notable quotes"All vendors are equal. Some vendors are more equal than others." — Jeffrey Wheatman, paraphrasing Animal Farm"Your business executives care about three things: money coming in, money going out, and if something goes wrong, who's in trouble." — Jeffrey Wheatman"The biggest risk in communication is assuming it has taken place." — quoted by Jeffrey Wheatman, attributed to George Bernard Shaw"Don't ask your vendors if they're using AI. They are. It's a matter of understanding what they're using it for." — Jeffrey Wheatman

See All Season 2 (7)

Trailer

About

A bi-weekly podcast about the world of third party risk. Many of us are in the same position, facing ever evolving challenges, trying to keep up with new regulations and laws and it often feels like we are struggling to keep up. I want to really open up the conversation on this topic by speaking with practitioners to discuss key topics, understand what worked well and what went wrong, what people struggle with and to bring in ideas from other industries too. I’ll be asking the questions that folks may feel silly or uncomfortable asking too. So, why not join me for a series of informal interviews and discussions to really open up the conversation for the third party risk community?

Information

  • Creator
    Mike Day
  • Episodes
    23
  • Seasons
    2
  • Rating
    Clean