What the REF?!

HiddenREF

Welcome What the REF - Our attempt at demystifying everyone's favourite national research assessment exercise! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  1. What the REF can be measured?

    MAY 13

    What the REF can be measured?

    This episode of What the REF explores some of the biggest tensions shaping REF and the wider research sector. Gemma, Simon and Lyndsey discuss a criticism of the measurement of research culture, arguing that accountability and lived experience matter more than simplistic metrics. They then examine growing enthusiasm for AI in research assessment, questioning whether evaluation can ever be automated without losing human judgement, trust and responsibility. The conversation also unpacks the uncertainty surrounding non-traditional outputs in REF submissions, from software and databases to exhibitions and performances, highlighting confusion around portfolios, supplementary evidence and what information panels actually need to make fair assessments. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - Simon Hettrick and Lyndsey Ballantyne, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    31 min
  2. What the REF do REF institutional leads do?!

    MAY 6

    What the REF do REF institutional leads do?!

    Inside the REF machine: this episode of What the Ref lifts the lid on life as an institutional lead. Featuring Gemma Fitzsimmons and Julie Northam, we explore the realities of coordinating submissions, navigating ambiguous guidance, and building confidence across entire universities. From data security concerns to the challenge of representing diverse research outputs, the conversation blends practical insight with sector-wide reflection. Expect candid discussion on pressure, collaboration, and the surprisingly supportive REF community. If you have ever wondered how the REF really works behind the scenes – or how decisions get made – this episode offers a clear, human perspective on a complex national exercise. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Simon Hettrick and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    59 min
  3. What the REF is happening with books?!

    APR 10

    What the REF is happening with books?!

    This week on What the Ref, the team heads to Plymouth for a lively workshop on non-traditional outputs before diving into a fascinating interview with Gareth Cole on the future of open access books. From monographs to “long-form” research, they unpack the challenges of defining openness, funding models beyond book processing charges, and the tension between flexibility and REF policy. Is the system sidelining books—and entire disciplines? Plus, new REF folklore debunked: can novels and trade books really be submitted? A sharp, thought-provoking episode on where research publishing is heading next. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Simon Hettrick, James Baker and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    1h 1m
  4. What the REF is work/life balance?!

    MAR 18

    What the REF is work/life balance?!

    Dive into the latest episode of What the REF?, where the team unpacks shifting UK research funding, REF 2029 updates, and what an interim director could mean for the sector. From curiosity-driven research and “hidden roles” to the challenges of assessing non-traditional outputs, this episode explores how academia is evolving in real time. The conversation also tackles bigger cultural questions: joy in research, slow scholarship, and whether academia should just be ‘a job’. Plus, insights from NTO workshops, early career concerns, and the future of research assessment—practical, honest, and thought-provoking throughout. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Simon Hettrick, Ola Thomson and James Baker. Our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    34 min
  5. What the REF is the Hidden REF Competition?!

    MAR 5

    What the REF is the Hidden REF Competition?!

    Discover the story behind the Hidden REF Competition in this special episode of What the REF. James and Lindsay explain how the initiative celebrates the vital but often overlooked contributions that keep research running—from software and datasets to infrastructure, engagement, and the people behind the scenes. Learn how the competition works, who is involved, and why the research community’s submissions matter. With volunteer panels, community-driven categories, and real stories of recognition and impact, the Hidden REF shines a spotlight on the hidden roles and outputs that traditional research assessment often misses. Plus, hear what is new for the 2026 competition and how you can get involved. Interested in joining an expert group? You can sign up here: https://hidden-ref.org/expert-groups/ Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker and Lyndsey Ballantyne, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    35 min
  6. What the REF do we do without Rebecca?!

    FEB 18

    What the REF do we do without Rebecca?!

    Research culture, open access battles, and major REF leadership news — this episode of What the REF?! unpacks the forces reshaping UK academia. The team reflects on the resignation of REF 2029 director Rebecca Fairbairn, debates universities walking away from big publishing deals, and explores how journal prestige still drives pressure and toxic incentives in some disciplines. They also let producer Ben on camera for once to introduce the new Hidden REF expert groups, which are a way of getting YOU involved in shaping the assessment criteria for not-traditionally submitted research outputs. Finally, they mark International Women and Girls in Science Day. Expect candid discussion on publishing power, research assessment, and how culture change in universities might actually happen. Interested in joining an expert group? You can sign up here: https://hidden-ref.org/expert-groups/ Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - James Baker and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    40 min
  7. What the REF happened on our community call?!

    FEB 4

    What the REF happened on our community call?!

    This episode of What the Ref mixes REF chat with community energy as James returns, Researchfish’s impending closure sparks lively debate, and the team reflects on what meaningful research culture could look like next. Gemma, James and Lindsay unpack why Researchfish mattered, why few will mourn it, and what might replace it. The spotlight then turns to Hidden REF’s first-ever community call, which attracted over 60 participants keen to share experiences of non-traditional outputs, recognition and REF realities. With insights, humour and optimism, the episode celebrates collaboration, learning across institutions, and building a more supportive REF community. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - James Baker and Lyndsey Ballantyne, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    22 min
  8. What the REF is needed to assess research outputs fairly?!

    JAN 21

    What the REF is needed to assess research outputs fairly?!

    A new year of ‘REF-iness’ kicks off as the What the REF team unpack the fallout from December’s REF changes and look ahead to what 2026 holds. With the dust now settling, the conversation turns from reaction to reckoning: what do the new rules actually mean in practice, and who stands to gain or lose? The team highlight two must-read reflections on the reforms, including analysis of the removal of ‘culture’ from the former PCE and the disproportionate impact this may have on early career researchers, who often rely on less easily measurable contributions. While opinions differ on whether the shift from ‘culture’ to ‘strategy’ is substantive or merely semantic, there is consensus on one thing: the rules are set, and it is time to get on with it. Much of the episode focuses on findings from the Hidden REF’s recent ‘think-aloud’ experiment, where evaluators assessed non-traditionally submitted outputs (NTOs) in real time. Drawing on 68 detailed observations across outputs ranging from software and databases to music composition, the team explore how assessors actually operationalise significance, originality, and rigour when familiar academic heuristics fall away. The results expose recurring challenges: inconsistent 300-word descriptions, reliance on inappropriate proxies from traditional publishing, and the subtle creep of aesthetics and personal taste into judgement. The discussion moves from diagnosis to action. The team outline plans to translate these findings into practical assessment guidelines, to be tested and refined through workshops and the next Hidden REF competition. With submissions opening in March and an awards ceremony planned for November, the competition is positioned as both a low-risk testing ground and a rare source of joy in an otherwise anxiety-ridden REF cycle. The episode closes with a shared ambition: to shift non-traditional outputs from the margins to the mainstream through evidence, dialogue, and sustained collective effort. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - Simon Hettrick and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    38 min
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About

Welcome What the REF - Our attempt at demystifying everyone's favourite national research assessment exercise! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Information

  • Creator
    HiddenREF
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    21
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Ben Thomas
  • Show Website
    What the REF?!

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