Three senior leaders get honest about what happens when the pressure is real, the answers aren't there, and everyone in the room is looking to you anyway. The MD behind Starbucks South Africa, the CIO of Tiger Brands, and the head of HR at Pernod Ricard Africa share what deciding without certainty has actually looked like, and what it took to step into it. The question most senior leaders carry privately and rarely say out loud: what do I do when I'm supposed to know and I don't? This episode is built around exactly that. Leah McCrae asked a boardroom of executives "is it okay if I don't know?" and it turned out to be one of the most trust-building moments of her career. Eugene van der Merwe had no management manual for leading through a pandemic where colleagues ended up in ICU on ventilators. Devandre Lawrence went for counselling to understand the childhood trauma underneath the persona he had built, and found it was the thing that made him the leader he is today. The conversation that doesn't usually happen at this level. Guests: Leah McCrae is the Managing Director of Rand Capital Coffee and the force behind Starbucks South Africa. She built the brand through bankruptcy, COVID, load shedding, and supply chain chaos, and became a leader who describes herself as intentionally vulnerable, and means it. Eugene van der Merwe is the Chief Information Officer at Tiger Brands. At the time of recording, he was approaching the end of more than a decade as CIO of AVI Limited, where he led an essential services company through a pandemic and a major cyber event, both times with people's lives and livelihoods genuinely in the balance. Devandre Lawrence is Head of HR at Pernod Ricard Africa. He came into a 24/7 FMCG environment as a gay man from a disadvantaged community, built a persona to survive it, and found his way through in a process that made him one of the most human voices in this conversation. They explain: ◼ Why "is it okay if I don't know?" was the most trust-building thing Leah ever said in a boardroom◼ What leading through a pandemic actually looks like when the decisions your team executes carry a real risk of death◼ How childhood trauma shapes the leader you become, and why counselling isn't a detour from the work, it is the work◼ The difference between transparency and honesty in a crisis, and why not everyone on your team can hold all of the information◼ Why psychological safety looks different for each person on your team, and why getting that right opens the real conversation Timestamps: (00:00) - Episode trailer (01:12) - Welcome to Leading Awake (02:50) - The PEAK Practice Programme (intro) (03:30) - The belief shift: leadership doesn't have one look or sound (05:26) - Why humility is the thing nobody put in the leadership manual (07:02) - "Is it okay if I don't know?" (Leah's boardroom moment) (09:39) - Bringing a company out of bankruptcy through COVID (12:00) - The ivory tower that doesn't exist (12:23) - When the decisions could cost someone their life (Eugene, COVID) (14:46) - What it takes to decompress when colleagues don't make it (17:11) - Leadership holds no title, it holds identity (19:34) - Coming into an industry that expected a different leader (22:00) - Why Devandre went for counselling (and what it changed) (25:11) - Leah on depression, loneliness, and the mask every leader wears (27:38) - "We're all just winging it" (and why that's actually okay) (29:15) - The PEAK Practice Programme (mid-episode) (31:39) - Pre-decision values: the answer before the crisis hits (32:19) - The cyber event and the humans behind the 36-hour shift (35:05) - The only way out of a wrong decision is honesty (40:36) - Psychological safety: the environment that opens the conversation (43:00) - Rapid fire: what's most improved your leadership effectiveness (45:44) - Closing thoughts + PEAK Practice Follow our guests: ◼ Leah McCrae◼ Eugene van der Merwe◼ Devandre Lawrence About Leading Awake: Leading Awake is a podcast for senior leaders who want to see clearly under pressure, connect more deeply, and respond more wisely in the high-stakes moments that count. Each episode is an honest, unscripted conversation with senior leaders who are willing to drop the mask and talk about what it actually takes to lead at the highest levels. Host Gilan Gork started as a professional mentalist working with the human mind on stages across more than 40 countries, including Fortune 500 companies, governments, and NATO. That work pulled him deeper into the inner game of leadership, and into the body of work that became PeakAwake. More at https://peakawake.com The 14-Day PEAK Practice Programme: Everything in this episode points to the same thing: when the pressure is on, your perception narrows, exactly when you need it to be widest. The PEAK Practice Programme is a 14-day guided audio practice built to train the inner capacity to see clearly and respond wisely in real conditions. 10 to 15 minutes a day. Leaders who've completed it call it one of the most practically useful things they've done for their leadership. Start here: https://peakawake.com If this conversation lands with you: Follow Leading Awake on your podcast app so you don't miss the next conversation. And if you have a moment, please leave a rating or a review. It sounds like a small thing, but it's the most useful way to help platforms recommend the show to other senior leaders who'd benefit from these conversations. If you know a leader who'd recognise themselves in this episode (the one who's been carrying it alone, showing up certain for everyone else while privately not knowing the answer) share it with them. That's how community builds.
