Rock That Doesn't Roll: The Story of Christian Music

Andrew Gill and Leah Payne
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Rock That Doesn’t Roll looks at how Christian music shaped the world we're living in now by telling individual stories from the peak era of the contemporary Christian music industry. In the 80s, 90s and early 2000s CCM grew into a billion dollar business that affected millions of evangelical young people. Through interviews with artists, industry players and average fans Dr. Leah Payne and Andrew Gill trace the long-lasting personal, cultural and political impact of sometimes cringe-worthy music. Expect hilarious moments and heartfelt yearning, purity culture and conservative politics- all in equal measure. Whether you’ve deconstructed, come out or renegotiated your faith, we hope you feel seen. If you’ve never given Christian music any thought beyond a punchline, we hope you’ll gain a deeper understanding of a subculture that’s shaping the world around us now. Join our Patreon or Buy Us A Coffee.

  1. 2 DAYS AGO

    Music at the Charlie Kirk Memorial (ft. David Gate and Kelsey Kramer McGinnis)

    The Charlie Kirk Memorial in Arizona was a singular event that blended religion and politics in powerful ways. It featured a lot of Christian music. Brandon Lake, Chris Tomlin, Phil Wickham, Kari Jobe Carnes, Cody Carnes and Tiffany Hudson all led the 100,000 people in the stadium and estimated 20 million watching online in worship songs. To analyze what it means that these artists performed at this event and how their music functioned in the event, we're joined by Kelsey Kramer McGinnis and David Gate.  Kelsey Kramer McGinnis is a musicologist, worship music correspondent for Christianity Today, and co-author of The Myth of Good Christian Parenting: How False Promises Failed a Generation of Evangelicals. David Gate is a poet, writer and visual artist who used to lead worship in England, Ireland and the American South. His collection of poems and essays is called A Rebellion of Care. ---- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

    1h 14m

  2. 8 OCT

    Live From The Trenches: Leah and Andrew Check In

    After 15 weekly episodes in season 3, Leah and Andrew chat about what else they've been up to this fall, what episodes they've especially enjoyed this season, and what they're looking forward to in upcoming episodes. -- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

    34 min

  3. 1 OCT

    The Discourse Meets Carman (ft. Chris DeVille)

    Chris DeVille wrote the book on the indie rock boom (Such Great Heights: The Complete Cultural History of the Indie Rock Explosion), but before he became a self-confessed "indie snob" he was a willing listener of Christian rock. In this conversation we discuss the influence of Pitchfork on musical tastes and how specific signifiers could have an outsized impact on critical coverage in the blog era. Artists discussed include 4Him, Stavesacre, Sufjan Stevens, Pedro The Lion, Cameron Winter, Neutral Milk Hotel and, of course, Carman.  --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

    59 min

  4. 24 SEPT

    1985: The Critical Year of CCM (ft. Tim Dillinger)

    In 1985 the Contemporary Christian Music industry reached a cultural height it would never regain. That's the basic case that Tim Dillinger has been making lately in his Substack, God's Music Is My Life. With artists like Amy Grant, Leslie Phillips, Sheila Walsh, Tramaine Hawkins and Rez Band pushing the boundaries of CCM from the inside, and mainstream acts like Maria Muldour and Mr. Mister pushing into CCM from the outside, 1985 was a year like no other, according to Tim. Would you believe that the downfall of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker's PTL empire in 1987 would reshape the Christian landscape for the worse? --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

    55 min

  5. 17 SEPT

    K-LOVE's Tradecraft (ft. Katie Thornton)

    Katie Thornton loves radio. Her series The Divided Dial has delved into conservative talk radio and shortwave. It won a 2023 Peabody Award. And her piece for Rolling Stone, "Jesus Take The Dial" goes in depth on CCM radio giant K-LOVE's operations.  We talk with Thornton about how K-LOVE's parent company has used its non-profit status to build a broadcasting behemoth and the downstream effects that has on American culture. We also discuss the Christian music she actually enjoys, her contrarian take on Bob Dylan and how K-LOVE compares to Salem Media Group, her main subject in season one of The Divided Dial.  --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

    1h 4m

  6. 10 SEPT

    Ozzy Osbourne, Christian Rocker (ft. Jason P Woodbury)

    Ozzy Osbourne died in July. He was memorialized as the "Prince of Darkness" and was a key figure during the Satanic Panic of the 1980s. But our guest Jason P Woodbury points out that Osbourne's genius was in marrying heaven and hell- and if you listen closely, he's not as different from Christian rock as you might assume.  Jason P Woodbury is an editor of Aquarium Drunkard and hosts their podcast, Transmissions. He also makes music as JPW. --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

    43 min

  7. 3 SEPT

    Larry Norman and Bob Dylan's Born Again Era Part 2 (ft. Gregory Alan Thornbury)

    Larry Norman thought another world was possible. Christians would make daring, artistic rock music. Mainstream musicians would make earnestly explore their spirituality in popular songs. He started a record label and an artist management company to make this a reality. And though he could see glimpses of this world, it was fully realized.  Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an interview recorded in 2022. He's Norman's biographer and an "erstwhile theologian" as he puts it. His 2018 book, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock is a very thorough accounting of this singular artist. This episode highlights some of those "perils" referenced in the subtitle.  This is part two of the interview. Topics covered in this segment include the reaction of the mainstream rock industry to Larry Norman, Bob Dylan's born again era, the lasting effect of the Christian contemporary music industry on America and where we see this energy today. --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

    36 min

  8. 27 AUG

    Larry Norman, the Guru of Christian Rock Part 1 (ft. Gregory Alan Thornbury)

    Larry Norman is widely recognized as the first Christian rock star. Recording with mainstream studio musicians The Wrecking Crew and later sharing a label with The Velvet Underground, Norman began his career singing explicitly about the values of evangelical Christianity on mainstream releases that didn't exactly light up the charts. But when Christian music publishers licensed his albums to sell in bookstores, sales went through the roof and the Christian Contemporary Music market was born.  Plus he wrote the song "The Rock That Doesn't Roll." Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an interview recorded in 2022. He's Norman's biographer and an "erstwhile theologian" as he puts it. His 2018 book, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock is a very thorough accounting of this singular artist.  This interview is being presented in two parts. This is part one, covering Norman's early life, views on race, the origins of his "One Way" symbol, his fall from favor with the Christian industry and his free-spirited wife, Pamela Ahlquist. --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

    52 min
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Rock That Doesn’t Roll looks at how Christian music shaped the world we're living in now by telling individual stories from the peak era of the contemporary Christian music industry. In the 80s, 90s and early 2000s CCM grew into a billion dollar business that affected millions of evangelical young people. Through interviews with artists, industry players and average fans Dr. Leah Payne and Andrew Gill trace the long-lasting personal, cultural and political impact of sometimes cringe-worthy music. Expect hilarious moments and heartfelt yearning, purity culture and conservative politics- all in equal measure. Whether you’ve deconstructed, come out or renegotiated your faith, we hope you feel seen. If you’ve never given Christian music any thought beyond a punchline, we hope you’ll gain a deeper understanding of a subculture that’s shaping the world around us now. Join our Patreon or Buy Us A Coffee.

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