This week’s show was recorded using an improvised audio recording setup while the podcast team was on pilgrimage through India. Thank you for your understanding. 🙏 If you wish to support our podcast, please visit this link. Thank you! Welcome to a new episode of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. The final in a series of six episodes recorded during the In the Footsteps of the Buddha pilgrimage, this instalment was made in Sravasti, India, in February 2026. In it, leadership coach Jo Confino is joined by Zen Buddhist nun Sister Tam Muoi and Dharma teacher Shantum Seth to share their experiences and reflections as they visit Sravasti and Jeta Grove. They discuss the power of community, and how the sangha held space for grief when co-host Brother Phap Huu received news of his father’s passing. They further explore themes of impermanence, non-attachment, transformation, the balance between the ultimate and historical dimensions in Buddhist teachings, and the importance of insight and practice. All three share personal stories illustrating these themes and the ways the pilgrimage has deepened their understanding of and connection to the Buddha’s legacy.The episode concludes with the group singing a song composed by a fellow pilgrim, capturing the essence of the ‘way out is in’ teachings. About the pilgrimage: In 1988, Shantum Seth was invited by Thich Nhat Hanh (Thay) to organize a pilgrimage to the sacred sites associated with the Buddha’s life across India. Subsequently, Thay encouraged Shantum to continue guiding such journeys each year, offering pilgrimage itself as a mindfulness practice – one that the Buddha had suggested. Shantum has been leading these transformative journeys ever since, offering people from around the world the opportunity to follow In the Footsteps of the Buddha with awareness and insight. After 15 years at the United Nations, Shantum left to volunteer with the Ahimsa Trust, which represents Thay’s work in India and promotes the practice of “peace in oneself and peace in the world”. Through Buddhapath, his expression of Right Livelihood, Shantum continues to guide pilgrimages and share the wisdom and culture of the places he visits in India and across Buddhist Asia, cultivating community through these deeply meaningful journeys.To learn more about upcoming pilgrimages, visit www.buddhapath.com, or follow Shantum on Facebook and Instagram at @eleven_directions. Shantum Seth, an ordained Dharmacharya (Dharma teacher) in the Buddhist Mindfulness lineage of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, teaches in India and across the world. A co-founder of Ahimsa Trust, he has been a student of Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings for the past 35 years, and, since 1988, has led pilgrimages and other multi-faith, educational, cultural, spiritual, and transformative journeys across diverse regions of India and Asia. He is actively involved in educational, social, and ecological programmes, including work on cultivating mindfulness in society, including with educators, the Indian Central Reserve Police Force, and the corporate sector. Across various Indian sanghas, Dharmacharya Shantum is the primary teacher of different practices of mindfulness from Thich Nhat Hanh’s tradition. Sister Tam Muoi (Sister Samadhi) is from the UK and was ordained in 2012, becoming a Dharma teacher in 2022. Having encountered the practice whilst living in France, she became engaged in the French lay sangha and was ordained into the Order of Interbeing in 2004. She is actively supporting the recently created Being Peace Practice Centre in the UK and is deeply committed to the work of healing ancestral harm, and to participation in trainings and retreats exploring White Awareness. Read more here. Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/ And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ Recordist: Ann Nguyenhttps://ann.earthSound editor: Joe Holtawayhttps://joeholtaway.comPublisher: Anca RusuProducer: Clay Carnillhttps://claycarnill.comExecutive Producer: Catalin Zorzini List of resources Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing Plum Village Traditionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plum_Village_Tradition Jeta Grovehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetavana Mangala Suttahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%E1%B9%85gala_Sutta Avalokiteshvarahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalokite%C5%9Bvara Song: ‘No Coming, No Going’https://plumvillage.org/library/songs/no-coming-no-going-song Anathapindikahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathapindika Anuruddhahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnuruddhaTathagatahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata Shravasti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shravasti Sarnathhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarnath Kushinagarhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushinagar Dharma Talks: ‘The Noble Eightfold Path’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/the-noble-eightfold-path Anapanasati Suttahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80n%C4%81p%C4%81nasati_Sutta Angulimalahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%E1%B9%85gulim%C4%81la Dharma Talks: ‘Redefining the Four Noble Truths’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/redefining-the-four-noble-truths Poem: ‘Please Call Me by My True Names’https://www.parallax.org/mindfulnessbell/article/poem-please-call-me-by-my-true-names Laurie Andersonhttps://laurieanderson.com/ Quotes “Some non-attachments are more painful than others.” “Thay talked about the fact that we allow 20% attachment; that we need to recognize we’re living in this life. And that we need to honor our feelings and our emotions in the historical dimension, whilst also in the ultimate dimension.” “We can have joy and sadness at the same time. They do not cancel each other out.” “We can have a moment of happiness and a moment of deep sadness, and we can contain both emotions at the same time.” “Because of the years of practice, when the difficult time comes we’re able to meet it with a degree of equanimity and understanding and not be dragged into a vortex of despair and depression. We are able to meet the moment.” “The matter of birth and death is as serious as if your turban is on fire.” “The art of life is increasingly bringing the ultimate and historical dimensions together and recognizing that they inter-are.” “Thay once said that what we practice in Plum Village is insight-based stress reduction or insight-based transformation. And what he meant was that once we’ve had an insight, everything is different. We cannot unlearn something that we’ve learned. And so all of our practice is about developing mindfulness, concentration, which leads to insight that is really understanding.” “There’s no point practicing if we don’t generate some insights.” “The insight is not there to be endlessly repeated, the insight is there to encourage us to practice. It’s like an anchor that helps us to stay put, and then we work at it.” “Peace in oneself, peace in the world.” “Happiness rests within oneself.” “If I want transformation outside, I need to do it inside. And my general upbringing has been to shift outside things outside – not to ignore the injustices outside, but to have the presence and then the wisdom of the community to act in a skillful way.” “In Zen circles we say that practicing with your family is the highest practice, the deepest Zen practice. That’s when you find out how you are doing. Because our parents know us as that stroppy teenager or that difficult child. We can’t float in as a spiritual practitioner; they can see straight through that.”
