Judgemental - a psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar

Greg Smith and Kate Connors
  • 4.4 (14)
  • Management

An analysis of all things psychosocial risk, from psychological studies to legal proceedings and case law.

  1. The Net Effect – Part 2: Let’s catch the biggest fish, with the best designed net

    13 hrs ago

    The Net Effect – Part 2: Let’s catch the biggest fish, with the best designed net

    Kate, Greg and Rod are back at the bar for Part 2 of their conversation.  And no – they aren’t really catching fish!  They are identifying and controlling psychosocial hazards, by diving into the messy reality of psychosocial risk, where nothing is neat, linear, or easily solved. In this part of the conversation, they unpack five categories of psychosocial hazards - and the overlaps and intersections that Rod researched to design this approach.  The question “are all hazards equal” and therefore should they all attract equal attention and resources is debated.  It was no surprise to Kate that Rod’s research identifies the biggest troublemaker (when considering the dynamic between hazard and harm) is interpersonal hazards.  Yes – humans can be very harmful hazards! From there, the conversation shifts from “what are the hazards?” to “what are we actually doing about them?”— and the answer isn’t more policies. It’s about designing a multi-layer approach to control systems, and moving away from a list of controls for individual hazards.  This means designing controls from organisational culture through to what actually happens on the frontline This episode confronts the hard truth - organisations can tick all the legal and regulatory compliance boxes and people can still be psychologically harmed.  Because managing legal risk isn’t the same as managing human impact.   The big takeaway? If you want to make a dent in psychosocial risk, start where it matters most—how people treat each other, and how leaders lead—and have systems in place to assure that what’s written on paper actually shows up in the day-to-day.   Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Dr Rod Gutierrez LinkedIn – EML   Resources:“The Net Effect – an ecosystems approach to psychosocial risk management.” Elemental Psychology & Coaching  website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefits https://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

    49 min
  2. The Net Effect – why fishing for hazards a hook at a time isn’t the answer…

    17 June

    The Net Effect – why fishing for hazards a hook at a time isn’t the answer…

    In this episode of Judgemental, Kate Connors and co-host Greg Smith are joined by Dr Rod Gutierrez—doctor, psychologist, and author of The Net Effect—for part 1 of a rich and provocative 2-part conversation about the future of psychosocial risk management. Rod takes listeners inside his unique professional journey and the thinking behind his book, challenging the dominant “tick-the-box” approach that still underpins much of workplace health and safety. Instead of treating psychosocial risk as a series of isolated hazards, he introduces a powerful alternative: the idea of the net effect—a more human, interconnected way of understanding how risks interact and are experienced through individual differences. Together, the trio explores why traditional engineering-style safety frameworks struggle to address complex human problems, and why compliance alone is not enough. They unpack the gap between regulation and meaningful practice, the unintended consequences of controlling risk in silos, and the growing tension between prevention and real-time support in workplaces. The conversation also ventures into the rising influence of AI and the uncomfortable truth that even though workplaces still haven’t mastered human-to-human care, they are now increasingly focused on human-to-AI interactions. Key discussion points: Why psychosocial risk can’t be managed one hazard at a time The “net effect” and what it means for real-world practice The gap between regulatory compliance and meaningful safety AI as both a solution—and a new psychosocial hazard The hard truth: workplaces still struggle with human-to-human care Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Dr Rod Gutierrez LinkedIn – EML Resources:“The Net Effect – an ecosystems approach to psychosocial risk management.” Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial Resources – Mutual Benefits https://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Music Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review, or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

    40 min
  3. Workplace investigations and safe systems of work

    27 May

    Workplace investigations and safe systems of work

    This week in the bar, Kate and Greg are joined by investigations expert Scott McLintock to unpack the complex reality of workplace investigations—and why they’re rarely as simple as “finding the truth.” As a follow-on from Episode 2: Workplace investigations and safe systems of work, Kate and Greg explore the human, legal and organisational dynamics that play out throughout an investigation process. From navigating competing perspectives and “multiple truths,” to managing legal risk, psychological harm and unintended consequences, the discussion highlights how investigations can ultimately shape, or destabilise workplace culture. The key takeaway? Before launching an investigation, ask yourself…..do we actually need one, or do we need to lean in and actively manage the situation? A sharp, thoughtful and at times sobering conversation about discretion, fairness and keeping people at the centre when things go wrong.Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Scott McLintock LinkedIn – EML Resources: CurbyMcLintock: https://curbypartners.com.au Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. Insert links when podcasts published to platform This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

    56 min
  4. Workplace Investigations and Safe Systems of Work

    27 Apr

    Workplace Investigations and Safe Systems of Work

    Kate and Greg return to their virtual bar stools for their first legal decision discussion of series 3—this time tackling workplace investigations.  Using the recent Department of Education NSW v SafeWork NSW decision as the backdrop, they unpack how timeliness, communication and the allocation of alternate duties during investigations are factors requiring employers design and focus. The context is sobering as the matter was prompted by a prolonged investigation that culminated in a worker’s attempted suicide. Kate and Greg unpack why timeliness, transparency, and procedural fairness are not just administrative issues but deeply human ones. As usual, a key thread throughout the episode is the distinction between process and outcome and whether employers have fit for purpose systems to assess risk, allocate alternative duties, and monitor investigations.  Along the way, they question knee jerk formal investigations, and argue for earlier and more “human centred” options, that might actually be helpful not harmful.   Heavy topic, sharp insights, a splash of humour—and a clear warning: leave people waiting for too long, and the consequences can be catastrophic. The episode closes with practical takeaways for employers: Re-examine what truly needs a formal investigation. Treat investigation processes as psychosocial hazards in their own right. Monitor timeliness and human impact, not just compliance. Build advisory capability and case management approaches. Never underestimate the potential for catastrophic harm when people are left in prolonged organisational limbo.   Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML Resources: Industrial Relations Commission, New South Wales: DoE v SafeWork NSW Industrial Relations Commission, New South Wales: Killen v SafeWork NSW and NSW Rural Fire Service Elemental Psychology & Coaching  website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

    51 min
  5. Psychosocial Regulations in Victoria: Three months in (A real case study in a real bar!)

    31 Mar

    Psychosocial Regulations in Victoria: Three months in (A real case study in a real bar!)

    In this very special episode, Kate and Greg have literally walked into a bar. Tune in to the team’s firstever live podcast, recorded in a Melbourne bar and in front of an audience (and yes, drinks were involved). They’re joined by Catherine Jeffries, Director of Health, Safety & Wellbeing at Monash Health, who shares practical, frontline insights into leading a psychosocial risk management strategy within one of Victoria’s largest and most complex organisations. Together, they unpack what it really looks like to operate under Victoria’s psychosocial regulations—three months on. (And yes, Victoria was the final piece of the national regulatory puzzle. Kate would like it on the record that this was absolutely not her fault, despite Greg’s ongoing suggestions.) In this two-part episode, the team kicks off with the Monash Health case study, which takes listeners through a series of twists and turns: maintaining employee privacy in complaints and investigations, sharing aggregate data across internal teams, leveraging digital platforms for consultation and risk assessment, and—most controversially—the use of green, amber, and red risk rating matrices, and the potential implications they pose for WHS prosecution defence. In part two, Kate and Greg tackle when organisations should consider engaging psychosocial risk consultants, with CoPilot offering a few unsolicited thoughts of its own—before handing things over to a lively, audience driven Q&A. It’s practical, provocative, and a little chaotic. Settle in, grab your drink of choice, and enjoy the mayhem that is psychosocial risk. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching  website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

    1hr 8min
  6. A deep dive: What do the NSW Workers Compensation Reforms mean for workplaces?

    16/12/2025

    A deep dive: What do the NSW Workers Compensation Reforms mean for workplaces?

    On 18 November 2025, the most significant changes to the NSW workers compensation scheme in over a decade were announced. In this special episode of Judgemental, Kate and Greg sit down with Gillian, Legal Manager for EML, to unpack what these reforms mean for businesses and employees in NSW. The discussion dives into the core focus of the reforms - psychological injury claims, which have surged in recent years and increased scheme costs. Gillian explains why these changes were necessary and what practical impacts they will have for workplaces and the claims process. The discussion shapes up to cover the intersection of workers compensation legislation to WHS and employment law, and of course, psychosocial risk management.  Grab a drink of choice and join Kate, Greg and Gillian to understand what these reforms will mean both directly and indirectly for NSW workplaces. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate ConnorsLinkedIn – Greg SmithLinkedIn – EMLResources: EML NSW Employer Webinar on the legislative changesNSW Parliament – Workers Compensation Legislation Amendment Bill 2025Elemental Psychology & Coaching  websiteGreg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper SafeEML websiteEML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar SpotifyAppleAmazonYoutubeBe sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

    48 min
  7. When idiosyncratic is deemed unreasonable – a discussion on beliefs, bullying and organisational justice

    18/11/2025

    When idiosyncratic is deemed unreasonable – a discussion on beliefs, bullying and organisational justice

    In the final episode of Series 2, Kate and Greg settle into their metaphorical bar stools with cocktails in hand to unpack a recent Fair Work Commission decision that, while legally unremarkable, opens up a typically rich and thought provoking conversation. The case involves a worker placed on a performance management plan, who later lodged an anti-bullying application. Though the Commission found no bullying, it did note the applicant’s “idiosyncratic personalised belief system” – prompting Kate & Greg to consider the limited number of circumstances where such phrasing isn’t open to appeal.     As always, the episode is equal parts sharp analysis and warm banter with both Kate and Greg naming their favourite conversations from Series 2. Which was yours?   Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate ConnorsLinkedIn – Greg SmithLinkedIn – EMLLinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program  Articles: Fair Work Commision decision – available here  Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching  websiteGreg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper SafeEML websiteEML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/  Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar SpotifyAppleAmazonYoutubeBe sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

    46 min
  8. An emerging landscape – When psychosocial risk intersects with constructive dismissal

    28/10/2025

    An emerging landscape – When psychosocial risk intersects with constructive dismissal

    In this episode, Kate and Greg dive into a recent Fair Work Commission case that brings psychosocial risk management and constructive dismissal into sharp focus. Their conversation once again explores the complex landscape of psychosocial hazards, with particular attention to sexual harassment and organisational justice. The case provides a timely opportunity for Greg to unpack the concept of constructive dismissal—a specific form of unfair dismissal—and explain the emerging implications for employers as a distinct employment risk separate, yet as always closely connected to, their workplace health & safety risks.   Kate and Greg also examine internal investigation processes, which are central to how organisational justice is experienced. Recognising these investigations as pivotal “moments that matter,” they ponder a critical question: Why isn’t organisational justice more prominently featured as a critical risk on workplace risk registers? The episode touches on key themes such as confidentiality, workforce consultation, and the importance of clear, consistent, and transparent communication during internal investigations. The conversation reinforces that these elements are essential to fostering a sense of safety and fairness in the workplace. As always, Kate and Greg bring their signature insight and candour to another engaging bar-side chat. Grab a drink, get comfy and listen in!   Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate ConnorsLinkedIn – Greg SmithLinkedIn – EMLLinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program  Articles: Fair Work Act Decision – s394 – Unfair dismiss  Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching  websiteGreg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper SafeEML websiteEML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/  Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar SpotifyAppleAmazonYoutubeBe sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

    57 min
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4.4
out of 5
14 Ratings

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An analysis of all things psychosocial risk, from psychological studies to legal proceedings and case law.

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