The It Depends Podcast with Matt and Tenille

First Person Consulting
  • 5.0 (2)
  • EDUCATION
  • UPDATED FORTNIGHTLY

Each episode Matt and Tenille grapple with questions that have no clear answers. For those working in evaluation, systems change, design or complexity this is a great place for you to learn to sit with uncertainty. A podcast where the answer to each question starts with ”it depends...”

Episodes

  1. 4 DAYS AGO

    #8: Have a Cup of Tea: Bridging Complexity in Emergency Management with Todd Miller

    In this episode of It Depends, Matt and Tenille sit down with Todd Miller, Associate Director of Resilience at Auckland University of Technology (AUT) and creator of the Complex Adaptive Disaster and Emergency Management (CADEM) Framework - a systems-based rethink of how we prepare for, respond to, and recover from disasters. Todd brings a deeply relational take to emergency management. Drawing from years in the Army, firefighting, and the National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA), he reflects on how our ability to respond well in moments of crisis depends less on command and control - and more on the quality of the relationships that connect people, organisations, and communities before disaster strikes. His key tip? Invest time building trust over a cup of tea - it might be the most powerful hidden preparedness strategy we have. Resources mentioned in the episode include: Todd's paper proposing the CADEM Framework The toolkit built off the paper, which includes templates and processes for use by organisations and communities Todd's methodological paper on Constructivist Networked Grounded Theory

    35 min

  2. 29 SEPT

    #7 Press Pause: Rethinking Systems and Evaluation with Emily Gates

    In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Matt and Tenille sit down with Associate Professor Emily Gates from Boston College. Emily is an evaluator, educator, and systems thinker whose work bridges theory and practice, with a focus on how evaluation can better reflect the realities of large-scale systems change. Their conversation ranges from the limits of outcomes-focused evaluation to the importance of boundaries, perspectives, and stewardship in systems practice. Together, they explore what it means to evaluate systemic change, the role of commissioners and funders, and why evaluators may need to act less like neutral judges and more like facilitators of critical deliberation. Emily invites us to pause, self-critique, and think differently about how evaluation can contribute to meaningful, lasting change. Whether you’re an evaluator, commissioner, or just curious about how change happens in complex systems, this conversation will spark reflection, raise challenging questions, and—of course—leave you with the reminder that sometimes the only answer is: it depends.   Thanks for listening to the Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, and follow us on LinkedIn.   These are links to the resources mentioned in the episode: Emily's new book co-written with Pablo Vidueira - Evaluative Inquiry for Systemic Change Thomas Schwandt's Evaluation Foundations: Cultivating a Life of Mind for Practice The Omidyar Group's Systems Practice Workbook And while we didn't mention it in the episode, Emily shared afterwards that she routinely goes back to Nora Bateson's book: Small Arcs of Larger Circles: Framing Through Other Patterns (here's an excerpt) for inspiration and new layers of insight.

    58 min

  3. 19 SEPT

    #6.3 AES25 Beyond the Bubble - Day 3: Connection and Collaboration

    And just like that the 2025 Australian Evaluation Society Conference comes to a close! Matt and Tenille quickly debrief on the day, but most importantly we hear some thoughts and reflections from the delegates on what they took from the day - the Conference as a whole! Also, here is the evaluation report that Jo Farmer completed that Tenille discussed. Shout out to all those clients that publish such great examples for others to learn from. If you haven't listened to Day 1 or Day 2's episodes (6.1 and 6.2) make sure to check that out first and then come back! Thanks for listening to the Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, and follow us on LinkedIn.

    21 min

  4. 18 SEPT

    #6.2 AES25 Beyond the Bubble - Day 2: Validation and Meaning

    Day 2 of the 2025 Australian Evaluation Society Conference is done and dusted! Matt and Tenille debrief on the walk back to their hotel and we hear some thoughts from some of the delegates on what they took from the day. Also, here is Bobby Maher's paper that Tenille referenced in the episode on defining collective capability If you haven't listened to Day 1's episode (6.1) make sure to check that out first and then come back! Thanks for listening to the Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, and follow us on LinkedIn.

    17 min

  5. 17 SEPT

    #6.1 AES25 Beyond the Bubble - Day 1: Binaries and Systems

    Coming to you from Canberra, Matt and Tenille summarise their key takeaways from the first day of the Australian Evaluation Society Conference in Canberra. This is the first of a three-part series covering each day.    If you haven't been able to make the Conference this is a chance to keep up with the latest thinking - as best we can - or if you are here, it's a chance to get our take on some of the key messages.   Thanks for listening to the Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, and follow us on LinkedIn.

    22 min

  6. 10 SEPT

    #5 Beyond Cost-Benefit: Defining Value for Investment with Julian King

    In this episode of It Depends, we sit down with internationally recognized evaluator Julian King to explore what it really means to assess value. Moving beyond traditional cost-benefit analysis and social return on investment, Julian introduces his award-winning Value for Investment (VfI) approach - an interdisciplinary framework that combines economic rigor with stakeholder perspectives.   Together, they unpack how VfI helps evaluators and commissioners define value propositions, integrate mixed methods, and make evaluative reasoning more transparent. They also touch on rubrics, participatory evaluation, and Julian’s idea of “Cubist evaluation,” which emphasizes multiple perspectives and collective sense-making in practice.   Julian covered a lot in this episode, and there's plenty of it freely accessible online! Check out the below resources: Julian's home page with free resources and training opportunities: https://www.julianking.co.nz/ Julian's 'Evaluation and Value for Investment' Substack A Guide to Evaluation of Value for Money in UK Public Service written by Julian King and Alex Hurrell A specific Substack post by Julian on 'Mixed Reasoning and Cubist Evaluation' Jane Davidson's book which changed Julian's approach: Evaluation Methodology Basics: The Nuts and Bolts of Sound Evaluation Thanks for listening. You can find out more about us on our website, or follow us on LinkedIn.

    37 min

  7. 26 AUG

    #4 Context Matters! Designing and Scaling in Systems with John Gargani

    Scaling impact sounds simple—just do more of what worked. In reality, it’s messy: contexts shift, resources are finite, politics and procurement warp timelines, and “success” looks different to different people. That’s why designing and evaluating for scale is one of the hardest gigs in our field. In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Matt sits down with evaluation pioneer John Gargani to explore the intersections of design, evaluation, and scaling impact. With over three decades of experience, John shares how a “misspent youth” led him into evaluation, why design and evaluation are inseparable, and how evaluators can play a crucial role in shaping better programs from the outset. Together, Matt and John unpack the nuances of design thinking, the discipline required for innovation, and the challenges of moving beyond linear “growth models” of scale toward more dynamic, context-driven approaches. Along the way, they dive into real-world examples—from global health crises to water infrastructure—and consider what it takes to responsibly scale innovations without losing sight of ethics, trade-offs, and long-term sustainability. We mention some resources in this episode - including John's book - which is free! Here are some quick links to get you started: Scaling Impact: Innovaton for the Public Good by Rob McLean and John Gargani GIZ Scaling Digital Innovations Workbook Thanks for listening. You can find out more about FPC on our website, or follow us on LinkedIn.

    57 min

  8. 15 AUG

    #3 Caring for Data, Caring for Country - Indigenous Data Sovereignty with Dr. Skye Trudgett

    In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Tenille Moselen speaks with Dr. Skye Trudgett, a proud First Nations woman and CEO of Kowa, about putting Indigenous data sovereignty into practice. Skye shares her path from aspiring sleep scientist to leading national work in evaluation, research, and community-led data governance. This episode demystifies and unpacks what Indigenous data sovereignty really means (“caring for data so data can care for Country and community”), common misconceptions, and the small but powerful changes that we can all be implementing that can shift systems.  We're not going to summarise it all here for you - this is an episode to check-out for yourself! After you've listened, we'd recommend you check out the resources and links below to learn more. Resources and Links: Start your journey by reading the Maiam nayri Wingara Indigenous Data Sovereignty Principles and other resources on their website Kowa - national leaders in the design and implementation of First Nations-led Understanding, Measurement, Evaluation & Learning (UMEL) practice.  The OCCAAARS Framework- which Skye references in the podcast and is based on her PhD.

    40 min

  9. 28 JULY

    #2 Blowing Bubbles: A Guide to the 2025 Australian Evaluation Conference with Kim Grey and Ruth Nicholls

    Join Matt and Tenille for an exclusive behind-the-scenes chat with Kim Grey and Ruth Nicholls, the dynamic duo co-convening the 2025 Australian Evaluation Conference in Canberra. Discover what's in store when the evaluation community gathers from 15-19 September under the theme "Beyond the Bubble." Kim and Ruth take us through their thinking on why 'Beyond the Bubble' was the right theme, some background on the exciting lineup of international keynote speakers, and some sneak peaks into the sessions they're excited to see. We explore the four conference sub-themes - Foundations, Connecting, Cultivating, and Transforming. Listen to hear why the conference isn't just about methods - it's about relationships. Whether you're seasoned or new to the field, Kim and Ruth share why the magic of evaluation conferences lies in the unexpected connections, the corridor conversations, and the chance to see familiar approaches used in completely new ways.  See the Conference Program and register: https://www.aes25.aes.asn.au/ Learn more about the Australian Evaluation Society, including how to become a member, their professional development program, and more: https://www.aes.asn.au/

    40 min

  10. 20 JULY

    #1 Constraints, Commissioning, and Causation with Eleanor Williams

    In this debut episode of It Depends Podcast, co-hosts Matt Healey and Tenille Moselen dive into the murky middle of evaluation practice—where complexity thrives, answers are rarely black and white, and good questions matter more than quick fixes. They’re joined by Eleanor Williams, Managing Director of the Australian Centre for Evaluation, for a wide-ranging and thoughtful conversation on evidence, ethics, and embedding evaluation in the heart of public policy. Together, they explore: What makes evidence fit for purpose—especially in fast-paced policy environments The importance of meaningful relationships between evaluators and commissioners The role and realities of quasi-experimental design in the public sector Thinking around everyday ethical dilemmas evaluators face. This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the tension between rigour, relevance, and real-world constraints. It’s honest, nuanced, and full of insight. Some of the resources mentioned in the episode are linked below: The Australian Centre for Evaluation homepage, and specifically the Commonwealth Evaluation Toolkit Relational Commissioning blog post by Eleanor Williams and Skye Trudgett The UK Government’s Magenta Book – see including Annex A on different methods for use in evaluations The webpage with more on the Australian Public Sector Evaluation Network (APSEN). You can find out more about First Person Consulting and what we do on our website: www.fpconsulting.com.au.

    37 min
  • 10 Episodes

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
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About

Each episode Matt and Tenille grapple with questions that have no clear answers. For those working in evaluation, systems change, design or complexity this is a great place for you to learn to sit with uncertainty. A podcast where the answer to each question starts with ”it depends...”

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