More or Less

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures. Follow the crew: http://x.com/davemorin http://x.com/brit http://x.com/lessin http:/x.com/jessicalessin Follow the pod: https://moreorlesspod.com/ http://youtube.com/moreorlesspod https://x.com/moreorlesspod

  1. 3 days ago

    Elon Is the Best Financier of Our Generation

    Sam and Jessica go two-on-two this week to unpack the SpaceX IPO and whether a $2.5 trillion valuation is actually justified, exploring why “it’s valuable because it’s valuable” may be a legitimate investment thesis and why Cursor’s $60 billion acquisition looks cheap in that context. They also break down Anthropic’s clash with the U.S. government over Fable 5, with Sam arguing the crackdown could be the best marketing in AI history, before debating the risks of tying software access to nationality. The episode closes with Meta’s AI morale problem, OpenAI burning nearly $4 billion in Q1 on $5.7 billion in revenue, the case for a multi-model future where no single frontier model wins, and why Sam believes token economics may be one of the most overlooked opportunities in economics. In lieu of Pop Culture Corner, Jessica brings a Reed Hastings book recommendation, while Sam once again demonstrates that having conviction and acting on it are apparently two different skill sets. After eight months of pitching DigitalOcean, he still doesn’t own the stock. Chapters:00:00 - Teaser 01:47 - SpaceX IPO Analysis 09:17 - Narrative Assets and Retail Investing 12:09 - The Future of AI Models and Infrastructure 16:00 - Corporate Narratives, Employee Motivation, and Meta’s AI Challenges 22:58 - OpenAI’s Market Strategy and Impact 25:19 - Open Source Models and Market Share 27:01 - Economics of Tokens and Innovation 33:01 - Anthropic’s PR Strategy and Fable Model Release 35:24 - Government Stakes in AI Companies 39:04 - Reed Hasting's Book Recommendation We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/ZVD3jS6LexcConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

    41 min

  2. 5 days ago

    Teamshares IPO: $60M EBITDA, 92 Companies, Zero Exits

    Seven years after Slow wrote its first check, Sam sits down with Teamshares CEO Mike Brown as the company prepares to go public. Mike’s core insight is simple: America has millions of durable, cash-flowing small businesses, but no great long-term owner. After buying and operating electrical contractors himself, he realized the opportunity wasn’t another marketplace or PE roll-up, it was building a permanent holding company that acquires great businesses, gives employees ownership, and never sells. Today, Teamshares owns 92 businesses generating roughly $60M in EBITDA. The conversation explores why most roll-ups fail, why capital allocation is the true operating system of the business, and why the traditional private equity model may be running out of steam. Mike closes with an ambitious goal: grow corporate EBITDA from $19M to $100M by 2027 and create a forever home for thousands of small businesses. Chapters 00:00 Episode Teaser Featuring Mike Brown, Teamshares CEO 01:11 The Teamshares Origin Story 04:48 From Wall Street to Buying Small Businesses 10:47 Why Going Direct to Sellers Didn’t Work (The FSBO Problem) 13:18 Buying at Scale, The Teamshares Model 15:27 92 Acquisitions and $60M EBITDA, Lessons Learned 18:26 Why Generalist Hires Didn’t Work 19:08 Building a Leadership Pipeline 23:46 The Internal YC, Community Across Portfolio Companies 27:42 How Technology Powers 92 Businesses 28:08 “Will This Business Exist in 50 Years?” 32:21 Why Most Roll-Ups Fail 37:30 The Road to $100M EBITDA 39:51 The Long-Term Vision 40:58 Capital Allocation as a Competitive Advantage 42:34 Decentralized Leadership, Centralized Capital 46:16 Why Private Equity Fails Small Businesses 49:25 Going Public, What Comes Next We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/3tV4wdtZBuk Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit Important Disclosures and Disclaimers:Teamshares has entered into a definitive agreement for a business combination with Live Oak Crest Acquisition Corp. (“Live Oak”), a special purpose acquisition company. In connection with the proposed transaction, a registration statement on Form S-4 (the “Registration Statement”) has been filed with, and been declared effective by, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (the “SEC”). This podcast does not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. For important information about the proposed transaction, including where to find the Registration Statement and other legal disclaimers, please refer to the press release available at https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20260527344175/en/Teamshares-Announces-S-4-Effectiveness-in-Anticipation-of-Nasdaq-Listing.Clarifications: Teamshares currently has 93 operating subsidiaries. Additionally, Teamshares has had documented revenue declines and business closures. A full reconciliation of non-GAAP measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures, as well as Teamshares’ audited GAAP financial statements, is available in the Registration Statement. Investors should review the full set of assumptions and risk factors accompanying these metrics in the Registration Statement.

    52 min

  3. 12 Jun

    Apple’s New Siri, SpaceX’s $300B IPO & the AI Company Killing Its Own Brand

    Dave joins the squad from YC just ahead of WWDC, where the group breaks down Apple’s upgraded Siri and the surprising revelation that much of Apple’s AI capability is powered by Google’s Gemini models. It wouldn’t be a technology podcast without the squad expanding into the broader AI landscape, with Dave arguing that outside of OpenAI and Anthropic, most AI companies are becoming infrastructure providers rather than destination products. They continue to unpack the IPO frenzy around SpaceX and OpenAI, including SpaceX’s reportedly massive investor demand and OpenAI’s murky timeline to go public. Jess then shifts the conversation to the turmoil at 60 Minutes, where leadership shakeups, internal revolts, and a declining brand presence raise questions about the future of legacy media. Finally, in Pop Culture Corner, the pod closes with Disney’s $200 million bet on Toy Story 5 and Taylor Swift’s outsized promotional impact. Chapters: 01:53 Apple WWDC: New Siri Breakdown 05:18 Google Gemini Powers Apple AI 07:06 WWDC Ignored Developers Entirely 10:21 Tim Cook’s Leadership Baton Pass 14:30 SpaceX IPO and OpenAI Filing 18:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI Narrative War 21:48 Dave Morin’s Two-Phone Redemption 26:52 60 Minutes Leadership Implosion 38:44 Toy Story 5 and Taylor Swift We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/Yvox4U_8u1wConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

    44 min

  4. 5 Jun

    Silicon Valley IPO Summer 2026: SpaceX, Anthropic, OpenAI Explained

    Brit subs in for Jess as Sam and Dave unpack the AI IPO boom, including SpaceX, Anthropic, and Cerebras, debate whether AI agents can actually replace employees, and react live to the discovery that Slow’s @slow Instagram account was stolen through a Meta AI support exploit. The conversation spans OpenClaw’s enterprise push, recent AI funding rounds, the AI wrapper debate, and Sam’s latest investing thesis that startup pitches should look more like movie trailers than decks, before ending with a pop culture corner into Taylor Swift, AI-generated podcasts for kids, and the future of TBPN after the OpenAI deal. Chapters: 02:53 AI IPO Season: SpaceX, Anthropic & Cerebras 05:29 Narrative Capitalism: Storing Value in Stories 11:34 What the AI IPO Wave Means for Silicon Valley 15:02 Microsoft Build: OpenClaw Goes Enterprise 17:38 Would You Trade Your Employee for an AI Agent? 25:19 LIVE: Slow Ventures’ Instagram Gets Hacked via Meta AI 30:04 Are AI Harnesses Just Fancy PDFs? 31:49 Recent AI Raises & the SaaS Comeback 33:01 The New Pitch: Movie Trailers Over Decks 41:17 AI-Generated Podcasts, Voice Cloning & Consumer AI 42:54 TBPN Update: Post-OpenAI Deal We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/oYmxx8ElGHkConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

    46 min

  5. 29 May

    Did Anthropic Use the Pope as a Marketing Stunt? Ft. Amir Efrati

    This week on More or Less, Amir Efrati of The Information joins Jessica, Brit, and Dave to unpack the growing intersection of AI, government, and national security, from the rumored stalled executive AI order to why frontier model companies may soon face deeper U.S. oversight and pre-release access demands. The group debates whether slowing AI adoption is really a pricing and UX problem, why AI agents are causing token consumption to explode, and whether most consumers even want an always-on personal agent. They also dive into the geopolitical implications of data centers and open-source software, AI’s impact on entertainment and voice cloning, Hollywood’s anxiety over originality, and the strange new world where even papal writings prompt questions about whether AI had a hand in shaping the message.Chapters:1:57 — AI Predictions, Whispering to Models & Forecasting the Future4:37 — AI, National Security & the Trump Administration6:52 — The Pope’s AI Document, Closed Models & Security Risks11:56 — AI Regulation, Job Fears & Public Sentiment15:45 — Is AI Adoption Slowing Down? Pricing, ROI & Enterprise Reality21:00 — Agents, CIOs & Whether Mainstream Users Will Ever Embrace AI36:00 — AI Entertainment, Voice Cloning & Hollywood’s Future41:52 — Going Off-Grid, Book Recommendations & Digital Detoxes47:00 — Mark Rober, CrunchLabs & the $10,000 Bullseye StoryWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/OyC7N42o36sConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

    50 min

  6. 22 May

    SpaceX IPO Date Talk + OpenAI Confidential Filing Rumors

    This week on More or Less, the crew unpacks IPO speculation around OpenAI and SpaceX, debates whether AI’s economics ultimately favor recurring API spend or owning infrastructure outright, questions if Google’s distribution advantage is enough to win the AI race despite muddled product execution, and wrestles with whether today’s AI valuations are driven by real fundamentals or pure mimetic momentum, alongside broader debates on broken AI user experience, data center concentration risk, agentic search killing SEO, and whether skilled trades like plumbing may ultimately prove more durable than many white-collar jobs in the AI era.Chapters:01:35 — Brit’s fish disaster story + the fish microbiome economy04:50 — Dell World, AI PCs, and the tokenomics debate (API spend vs. owning infrastructure)11:00 — Google I/O recap: agentic search, generative UI, Android glasses, and whether Google is actually back16:30 — Google’s UX problem: why AI still feels broken for normal users20:00 — Anthropic vs. Google: focused monolith vs. sprawling empire22:10 — OpenAI IPO speculation + Anthropic’s mega-round: what do you have to believe at $1T valuations?29:30 — The “hate invest” thesis: public sentiment, retail risk, and crypto déjà vu34:20 — Portfolio debate: SpaceX vs. Anthropic vs. OpenAI35:00 — Sam builds an AI token pricing dashboard live + how companies actually burn $30K/month on tokens37:00 — What’s next in AI research? Memory, world models, and where infra plays went42:30 — White House AI model oversight rumors + OpenAI’s Elon legal update50:10 — AI side projects, kids learning to code, and why plumbers may win the AI eraWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

    52 min

  7. 15 May

    Google's AI-First Laptop, Meta's Spy Games, AI Monks in Middle America

    The squad is complete again, and Sam arrives with a NeuroPod, cold plunge updates, red light therapy, Oura stats, and enough supplements to start a wellness startup. Then into the week’s biggest tech stories: Google’s new AI device and whether it’s the Chromebook of the AI era or another doomed health-tech experiment, Meta’s keystroke logging controversy, Microsoft’s increasingly awkward OpenAI bet, why OpenAI and Anthropic are now sending engineers directly into enterprises to drive adoption, and what tools like OpenClaw, Py, and Codex actually do. Plus, Anthropic’s eye-watering latest valuation, the clean girl aesthetic discourse, Brian Johnson chaos, and Sam personally buying Jackson Hole ski passes like it’s 1997Chapters:00:46 Sam’s NeuroPod, Oura Results & Biohacking Spiral03:33 Sam vs. Brian Johnson + The Female Biohacker Opportunity05:09 Oura Ring vs. Whoop + Google’s Wearables Ambition07:00 Google’s AI-First “Book” Laptop + DeepMind’s Health Push10:30 Why Local AI Changes Everything (Speed, Cost & Compute)15:00 Where Is the OpenAI Consumer Device?16:00 Voice AI, Recording & the Future of Human-Computer Input20:30 Sam Built His Own Voice-to-AI App22:31 Meta’s Keystroke Logging: Spy Games or Honeypot?24:00 Fake AI Jobs + Sam’s “Fin Analytics” Prediction27:02 OpenAI & Anthropic’s Enterprise Conversion Strategy29:31 The AI Backlash Is Real (Including UCF’s Commencement Revolt)31:30 Microsoft’s $100B OpenAI Problem39:31 Anthropic’s Massive Raise + SF Real Estate Absurdity41:30 OpenClaw, Py & Codex: What Is a Harness?We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYoutube: https://youtu.be/-O3zyxR-wS0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

    46 min

  8. 8 May

    Why the Met Gala Hates Tech, Elon vs OpenAI Drama, and the Rise of Chinese AI Models

    Jess, Britt, and Dave unpack everything from Home Depot runs and closet “re-jiggers” to the internet’s growing backlash against tech wealth, AI, and Silicon Valley culture. The squad debates whether the Met Gala became a symbol of “techlash,” how layoffs and AI anxiety are reshaping public sentiment, and whether AI will actually democratize opportunity or simply concentrate power faster. They also dive into the wild new AI alliances between Anthropic, Elon, and hyperscalers, the latest OpenAI vs Elon trial drama, and why product adoption, not regulation, will decide the future of AI. Plus, Dave shares major OpenClaw updates, real-world AI workflow automations, Meta fork rumors, and the surprisingly relatable use case of turning meeting transcripts into family “receipt printer” briefings. Rounded out with solo movie dates, Taylor Swift theories, Star Wars discourse, and the state of flake culture.Chapters:00:58 Jess' Home Renovation Project While Sam is Out03:54 Met Gala: When the Bezoses Became the Story07:13 Techlash, Wealthlash, and the AI Jobs Backlash09:36 Trump’s Surprise Pivot Toward AI Regulation11:51 China, Open-Source Models, and Dave’s $5K Blackwell Desktop14:13 The Optimistic Case: AI as the Great Wealth Equalizer17:55 The Pessimistic Case: Tools Democratize, Economics Consolidate19:43 What Changes Public Sentiment: Better Products, Not Better Arguments22:42 Layoffs: Pandemic Hangover or AI Substitution?27:56 Why Almost No One Is Actually Using AI Yet33:15 Anthropic’s Compute Scramble and the SpaceX/Colossus Deal36:27 Dario vs. Elon: Two Very Different Operators39:55 The OpenAI vs. Musk Trial: TMZ or Substance?45:33 Polymarket, Twitter-Mention Betting, and ChatGPT Comeback46:42 OpenClaw Update: Foundation, Plugin Architecture, China Forks50:08 Granola + Claude Code: Replacing Salesforce in 30 Minutes53:36 Devil Wears Prada, Solo Movie Dates, and the Death of Journalism55:01 Music & Pop Culture: Ella Langley, Teddy Swims, Toy Story 556:36 Why Star Wars Keeps Missing We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/138ne91NkiQConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

    59 min
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About

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures. Follow the crew: http://x.com/davemorin http://x.com/brit http://x.com/lessin http:/x.com/jessicalessin Follow the pod: https://moreorlesspod.com/ http://youtube.com/moreorlesspod https://x.com/moreorlesspod

Information

  • Creator
    Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2026
  • Episodes
    156
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin
  • Show Website
    More or Less

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