Messy with Daniel Atlin

Solid Gold Podcasts #BeHeard

5.0 (4)
MANAGEMENT

Make Sense of the Mess of Leadership. Today’s leaders are facing unprecedented challenges. It’s a messy, complex world that requires a different approach and mindset to get things done. This is where you'll find conversations on how leaders in complex organizations navigate and make sense of the mess they find themselves in.

2D AGO

Is the University Model Broken? | Tim Blackman

Rethinking higher education — and finding your purpose. What if the real problem with higher education isn’t funding, technology, or rankings, but the model itself? In this episode, Daniel Atlin speaks with Tim Blackman, former Vice-Chancellor and President of the Open University, about whether the dominant university model is simply out of sync with modern life. While most universities still organise learning around a single intensive period in early adulthood, Tim argues that the future lies in lifelong learning, shorter credentials, and education woven throughout people’s working lives. Drawing on his experience leading one of the largest and most distinctive universities in the UK, he reflects on the challenge of changing institutions that are structurally designed to protect the status quo. But this conversation is also deeply personal. While in his role leading the Open University, Tim was diagnosed with stage four prostate cancer. The experience forced a profound pause, prompting him to reflect on legacy, responsibility, and a simple but powerful question: What kind of world do I want to leave my grandchildren? That moment sharpened his focus on the larger purpose of higher education. In his recent paper for the Higher Education Policy Institute, Tim argues that universities should orient themselves around a guiding mission: helping to build a sustainable economy: environmentally, socially, and financially. The discussion ranges from institutional leadership and lifelong learning to the challenge of misinformation in an increasingly fragmented knowledge landscape. Above all, it’s a conversation about purpose and the reminder that it is never too late to rethink your work, your impact, and the difference you want to make. In a messy world, Tim reminds us that leadership isn’t just about managing institutions - it’s about deciding what really matters with the time we have. Connect with Tim on LinkedIn · The HEPI paper · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

51 min
MAR 4

Making Sense of Making Sense | Why the mess matters

This episode is different. There’s no guest. It’s just me, Daniel Atlin, answering the question I ask every leader who comes on Messy: to riff off the Kierkegaard quote “Life must be lived forwards, but can only be understood backwards." I look back at the moments that shaped my curiosity about leadership, complexity, and what I now call “the mess.” I talk about growing up between cultures and religions, about realising I was gay in the 1980s, about feeling different and discovering that everyone carries a backstory you can’t see. After senior roles across government, cooperative organisations, and higher education, I kept noticing the same pattern: smart people, important missions, and good intentions. And… stalled initiatives, quiet failures, and exhausted leaders. Why is leadership in mission-driven organisations so difficult? That question led me to study leadership more formally at Oxford and HEC Paris and to interview 25 university leader across four countries. What I discovered surprised me. Leaders who navigated complexity most effectively weren’t the ones with perfect strategies but the ones who could make sense of politics, competing narratives, incomplete data, and their own emotional reactions. They were practicing two forms of sensemaking at the same time: 1. Personal sensemaking: regulating emotion, building resilience, understanding how your nervous system affects the organisation. 2. Organisational sensemaking: exploring the terrain, shaping narrative, improvising when plans collide with reality, and adapting collaboratively. When those two disconnect, leadership falters. When they align, something powerful happens. This episode explains what I’ve learned so far, and why naming complexity is oddly liberating. If you’re wrestling with leadership in uncertain times, this episode and the series is for you. Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

9 min
FEB 25

Should you Collaborate with the Enemy? | Adam Kahane

If you're not part of the problem, you can't be part of the solution. In this episode of Messy, Daniel Atlin sits down with global facilitator and systems practitioner Adam Kahane to explore what it really means to collaborate when agreement feels impossible. They explore collaboration across deep divides, the courage to see our own part in the problem, and how change often starts in the smallest crack in a hardened system. Drawing from his newly revised second edition of "Collaborating with the Enemy", Adam challenges the romantic idea that collaboration is always the right answer. Instead, he offers a more grounded framework: collaboration is one option among four, alongside forcing, adapting, and exiting. The key question is “When, and under what conditions, is collaboration the most viable path?” The conversation explores several core ideas: • "Enemy-fying": Adam’s invented word for the habit of labeling others as enemies simply because we disagree with them. In polarized systems, this reflex deepens fragmentation and limits our options. • The Three Stretches of Collaboration: 1. Embrace conflict as well as connection 2. Experiment your way forward 3. Recognise your role in the game • Power, Love, and Justice: Drawing on Martin Luther King Jr. and Paul Tillich, Adam frames social change as a tension between the drive to realize oneself (power), the drive to unify the separated (love), and the structures that balance the two (justice). • Failure as Teacher: Adam speaks candidly about mistakes in both professional and personal contexts, arguing that experimentation, not certainty, is the only way forward in complex systems. One of the key take aways for those interested in “Messy” leadership is that collaboration begins not with technique, but with introspection: Who am I in this system? How am I contributing to the very dynamics I’m frustrated by? If you like this episode, share it with a friend. And buy Adam's book! Link to Adam's book: Collaborating with the Enemy · Reos Partners Website · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

51 min
FEB 10

Between the Dance Floor and the Balcony | Iain Martin

Leading across Australia, the UK, and New Zealand. What does it mean to lead a university when trust in public institutions is eroding and the rules keep changing? In this episode of Messy, I speak with Iain Martin, President and Vice-Chancellor of Deakin University, about navigating leadership in the thick of complexity. From global rankings and political scrutiny to AI, massification, and polarisation, the conversation surfaces the often unseen pressures shaping modern universities. The “dance floor and balcony” metaphor comes from the adaptive leadership work of Ron Heifetz and Marty Linsky. It captures the leadership challenge of staying grounded in day-to-day realities while also stepping back to see system-level patterns. Iain reflects on his leadership journey across three Commonwealth systems. He shares how curiosity, narrative, and sensemaking (rather than rigid planning) have guided his approach. Central to the discussion is the idea of social license: who grants it, how easily it can be lost, and why rebuilding it requires leaders to think beyond their own institutions. Without offering simple solutions, this episode sits with the mess, exploring how leaders balance the dance floor and the balcony, strategy and stewardship, optimism and realism. It underscores why universities still matter as places for difficult conversations in a fractured world. Key highlights • Why universities cannot “go it alone” on social license • The leadership cost of ignoring community expectations • Universities as complex adaptive systems that require “productive chaos” • Transparency as a practical trust-building strategy • The future of assessment and learning in an AI-enabled world • Why narrative and storytelling are essential leadership tools I hope you enjoy this conversation. If you do, please write a review and share it with a friend. Living and leading in the mess is easier with others. Iain Martin's Bio and contact info at Deakin · Iain's discussion & paper on the social license challenge of universities · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

57 min
JAN 28

Structured Chaos in a Messy System | John Yip

A little playbook, a little Picasso. Healthcare is often treated as a hospital story, until you need care at home. In this episode of Messy, I am joined by John Yip, President & CEO of SE Health, to talk about leading at the intersection of health systems, digital transformation, workforce innovation, and social purpose. John shares how his early work in the digital economy still echoes today, why home and community care is both essential and misunderstood, and what it takes to build alignment across a complex, distributed organisation operating in Canada’s fragmented provincial landscape. The conversation goes deep on COVID-era leadership: uncertainty, moral pressure, scarcity, and the real-world improvisation required when there is no playbook. We also explore what “digital transformation” should mean now and how to ensure technology serves care (not the other way around), why safe experimentation matters, and the potential of healthcare data to improve aging and wellbeing. John offers a powerful metaphor from his personal endurance project: “running every street” as a practice of curiosity, resilience, and rewiring your perspective. Key themes: • Sensemaking across long arcs of change • Healthcare as a complex, fragmented ecosystem • Leadership in distributed, mission-driven systems • Frontline intimacy and relational care • Crisis leadership requires improvisation • Resilience through exploration and “structured chaos” If leadership sometimes feels like chopping wood, this episode is a reminder: the grind is part of the work and purpose is what helps you stay even-keeled through the mess. If you like this episode, write a review and share. Leading through the mess is easier with friends and colleagues. SE Health Website · Running magazine Canada article about John running every street · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

56 min
JAN 15

Universities at the Boundary | Meric Gertler

Sensemaking and Placemaking. In June 2025, Meric Gertler completed a 12-year term as President of the University of Toronto. I had the privilege and good fortune to first meet and work with Meric Gertler in 2007 when he was then the Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Science at the University of Toronto. What stood out most was his curious, thoughtful, and deeply empathetic approach to leadership. Now, 18 years later, I thoroughly enjoyed our "Messy" conversation. A great deal of it explores how sensemaking is a crucial but often unrecognised function of university presidents, involving engaging with communities in all its definitions, interpreting signals, global trends and events to help their institutions understand their role in addressing societal challenges. We cover lots more ground in our conversation: • Why sensemaking is a non-delegable responsibility of senior leaders • How universities build (or lose) legitimacy and public trust • What higher education truly owes society • Universities as engines of access, inclusion, and opportunity • The challenge of fostering real debate & “disagree welling” • Leading through the pandemic • Navigating geopolitical disruption and social media fragmentation • How U of T became a global leader in sustainability • Lessons about mobilising change in complex systems • Practical leadership lessons on delegation, listening, and sustaining yourself in demanding roles This episode is a powerful reflection on leadership at the boundary: between institutions and society, certainty and ambiguity, responsibility and possibility. If you’re navigating complexity, questioning institutional purpose, or trying to lead with integrity in uncertain times, this conversation will stay with you. If you like it, please subscribe and share it with a colleague or friend! University of Toronto · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

59 min
JAN 8

Why global health needs collective leadership | Heather Anderson and David Kamau

Lasting impact happens inside people and adaptation is the critical skill. “That trusted network of peers is what keeps leaders standing when the work feels overwhelming.” In this episode of Messy with Daniel Atlin, I have a conversation with Heather Anderson (CEO) and David Kamau (Chief Program Officer) from Global Health Corps to explore what leadership really looks like when the stakes are high, the data is incomplete, and the path forward isn’t clear. GHC was built on a core belief that systems don’t have agency, people do. It is focused on building capacity in health systems through fostering leadership competencies and skills in early and mid-career leaders in Africa and the U.S. David and Heather they unpack how GHC built a “movement” of emerging health leaders across Africa and the U.S. and they do that through tapping into lived and shared experiences, building coaching muscles and a peer community, and harnessing the power of public narrative. They talk candidly about adaptability in crisis, navigating equity and power and preventing burnout in under-resourced systems. Key themes of this conversation are: - Leadership is a practice, not a position - Adaptability is the signature leadership trait - Networks prevent burnout and isolation accelerates It - Leadership development is a long game where impact doesn’t always show up immediately or cleanly - Careers are non-linear and purpose is the best anchor - Collective leadership is greater than singular heroic leadership We also talk about the relevance of Marshall Ganz’s work on public narrative and its importance to fostering movements and change. The work David and Heather do, and the impact of Global Health Corps is impressive. If you’ve ever wondered how leaders in a global non-profit keep going in the mess, this conversation is your blueprint. And if you want to support an amazing organisation follow and support GHC. Global Health Corps website and how to support them · Information about Marshal Ganz and his work on Public Narrative · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

48 min
2025-12-09

Leading like a jazz conductor, not a classical maestro | Mark Walton

Hospitals are messy, complex, adaptive systems. In this episode, I speak with Mark Walton, President and CEO of Guelph General Hospital. Together, we explore what leadership looks like inside one of the messiest systems we have: a community hospital under relentless pressure. We'll learn lessons to get through the mess. Mark traces his health care journey from a 17-year-old ward clerk to finally realising his teenage dream of becoming a hospital CEO and why he cried in the middle of Canadian Tire when he got the call offering him the role of his dreams. He makes the case that hospitals and universities as a different species of organisation and are really complex adaptive systems that don't act like a traditional business. They are mission-driven, financially constrained, and constantly juggling patient care, staff well-being, community trust, donors, and regulators. Mark shares what he learned in previous roles, leading Ontario’s COVID-19 response: the importance of naming uncertainty, the long shadow of trauma on health-care workers, and a powerful story of learning a key leadership lesson by stepping into the “cracks between systems” to support migrant farm workers when “no help was coming.” Along the way, he talks about AI in healthcare, the loneliness of the CEO role, why he leads more like a jazz conductor than a classical maestro, and how music, teaching, and rest help him stay grounded. It's a candid, hopeful conversation about complexity, values, and leading humans in a system that never sleeps. Guelph General Hospital's website · Mark Walton's LinkedIn profile · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

45 min

5

out of 5

4 Ratings

Make Sense of the Mess of Leadership. Today’s leaders are facing unprecedented challenges. It’s a messy, complex world that requires a different approach and mindset to get things done. This is where you'll find conversations on how leaders in complex organizations navigate and make sense of the mess they find themselves in.

Creator

Solid Gold Podcasts #BeHeard
Years Active

2025 - 2026
Episodes

18
Rating

Clean
Copyright

© Solid Gold Podcasts #BeHeard
Show Website

Messy with Daniel Atlin