Messy with Daniel Atlin

Solid Gold Podcasts #BeHeard

5.0 (4)
MANAGEMENT

Make Sense of the Mess of Leadership. Today’s leaders are facing unprecedented challenges. It’s a messy, complex world that requires a different approach and mindset to get things done. This is where you'll find conversations on how leaders in complex organizations navigate and make sense of the mess they find themselves in.

2D AGO

Between the Dance Floor and the Balcony | Iain Martin

Leading across Australia, the UK, and New Zealand. What does it mean to lead a university when trust in public institutions is eroding and the rules keep changing? In this episode of Messy, I speak with Iain Martin, President and Vice-Chancellor of Deakin University, about navigating leadership in the thick of complexity. From global rankings and political scrutiny to AI, massification, and polarisation, the conversation surfaces the often unseen pressures shaping modern universities. The “dance floor and balcony” metaphor comes from the adaptive leadership work of Ron Heifetz and Marty Linsky. It captures the leadership challenge of staying grounded in day-to-day realities while also stepping back to see system-level patterns. Iain reflects on his leadership journey across three Commonwealth systems. He shares how curiosity, narrative, and sensemaking (rather than rigid planning) have guided his approach. Central to the discussion is the idea of social license: who grants it, how easily it can be lost, and why rebuilding it requires leaders to think beyond their own institutions. Without offering simple solutions, this episode sits with the mess, exploring how leaders balance the dance floor and the balcony, strategy and stewardship, optimism and realism. It underscores why universities still matter as places for difficult conversations in a fractured world. Key highlights • Why universities cannot “go it alone” on social license • The leadership cost of ignoring community expectations • Universities as complex adaptive systems that require “productive chaos” • Transparency as a practical trust-building strategy • The future of assessment and learning in an AI-enabled world • Why narrative and storytelling are essential leadership tools I hope you enjoy this conversation. If you do, please write a review and share it with a friend. Living and leading in the mess is easier with others. Iain Martin's Bio and contact info at Deakin · Iain's discussion & paper on the social license challenge of universities · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

57 min
JAN 28

Structured Chaos in a Messy System | John Yip

A little playbook, a little Picasso. Healthcare is often treated as a hospital story, until you need care at home. In this episode of Messy, I am joined by John Yip, President & CEO of SE Health, to talk about leading at the intersection of health systems, digital transformation, workforce innovation, and social purpose. John shares how his early work in the digital economy still echoes today, why home and community care is both essential and misunderstood, and what it takes to build alignment across a complex, distributed organisation operating in Canada’s fragmented provincial landscape. The conversation goes deep on COVID-era leadership: uncertainty, moral pressure, scarcity, and the real-world improvisation required when there is no playbook. We also explore what “digital transformation” should mean now and how to ensure technology serves care (not the other way around), why safe experimentation matters, and the potential of healthcare data to improve aging and wellbeing. John offers a powerful metaphor from his personal endurance project: “running every street” as a practice of curiosity, resilience, and rewiring your perspective. Key themes: • Sensemaking across long arcs of change • Healthcare as a complex, fragmented ecosystem • Leadership in distributed, mission-driven systems • Frontline intimacy and relational care • Crisis leadership requires improvisation • Resilience through exploration and “structured chaos” If leadership sometimes feels like chopping wood, this episode is a reminder: the grind is part of the work and purpose is what helps you stay even-keeled through the mess. If you like this episode, write a review and share. Leading through the mess is easier with friends and colleagues. SE Health Website · Running magazine Canada article about John running every street · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

56 min
JAN 15

Universities at the Boundary | Meric Gertler

Sensemaking and Placemaking. In June 2025, Meric Gertler completed a 12-year term as President of the University of Toronto. I had the privilege and good fortune to first meet and work with Meric Gertler in 2007 when he was then the Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Science at the University of Toronto. What stood out most was his curious, thoughtful, and deeply empathetic approach to leadership. Now, 18 years later, I thoroughly enjoyed our "Messy" conversation. A great deal of it explores how sensemaking is a crucial but often unrecognised function of university presidents, involving engaging with communities in all its definitions, interpreting signals, global trends and events to help their institutions understand their role in addressing societal challenges. We cover lots more ground in our conversation: • Why sensemaking is a non-delegable responsibility of senior leaders • How universities build (or lose) legitimacy and public trust • What higher education truly owes society • Universities as engines of access, inclusion, and opportunity • The challenge of fostering real debate & “disagree welling” • Leading through the pandemic • Navigating geopolitical disruption and social media fragmentation • How U of T became a global leader in sustainability • Lessons about mobilising change in complex systems • Practical leadership lessons on delegation, listening, and sustaining yourself in demanding roles This episode is a powerful reflection on leadership at the boundary: between institutions and society, certainty and ambiguity, responsibility and possibility. If you’re navigating complexity, questioning institutional purpose, or trying to lead with integrity in uncertain times, this conversation will stay with you. If you like it, please subscribe and share it with a colleague or friend! University of Toronto · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

59 min
JAN 8

Why global health needs collective leadership | Heather Anderson and David Kamau

Lasting impact happens inside people and adaptation is the critical skill. “That trusted network of peers is what keeps leaders standing when the work feels overwhelming.” In this episode of Messy with Daniel Atlin, I have a conversation with Heather Anderson (CEO) and David Kamau (Chief Program Officer) from Global Health Corps to explore what leadership really looks like when the stakes are high, the data is incomplete, and the path forward isn’t clear. GHC was built on a core belief that systems don’t have agency, people do. It is focused on building capacity in health systems through fostering leadership competencies and skills in early and mid-career leaders in Africa and the U.S. David and Heather they unpack how GHC built a “movement” of emerging health leaders across Africa and the U.S. and they do that through tapping into lived and shared experiences, building coaching muscles and a peer community, and harnessing the power of public narrative. They talk candidly about adaptability in crisis, navigating equity and power and preventing burnout in under-resourced systems. Key themes of this conversation are: - Leadership is a practice, not a position - Adaptability is the signature leadership trait - Networks prevent burnout and isolation accelerates It - Leadership development is a long game where impact doesn’t always show up immediately or cleanly - Careers are non-linear and purpose is the best anchor - Collective leadership is greater than singular heroic leadership We also talk about the relevance of Marshall Ganz’s work on public narrative and its importance to fostering movements and change. The work David and Heather do, and the impact of Global Health Corps is impressive. If you’ve ever wondered how leaders in a global non-profit keep going in the mess, this conversation is your blueprint. And if you want to support an amazing organisation follow and support GHC. Global Health Corps website and how to support them · Information about Marshal Ganz and his work on Public Narrative · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

48 min
2025-12-09

Leading like a jazz conductor, not a classical maestro | Mark Walton

Hospitals are messy, complex, adaptive systems. In this episode, I speak with Mark Walton, President and CEO of Guelph General Hospital. Together, we explore what leadership looks like inside one of the messiest systems we have: a community hospital under relentless pressure. We'll learn lessons to get through the mess. Mark traces his health care journey from a 17-year-old ward clerk to finally realising his teenage dream of becoming a hospital CEO and why he cried in the middle of Canadian Tire when he got the call offering him the role of his dreams. He makes the case that hospitals and universities as a different species of organisation and are really complex adaptive systems that don't act like a traditional business. They are mission-driven, financially constrained, and constantly juggling patient care, staff well-being, community trust, donors, and regulators. Mark shares what he learned in previous roles, leading Ontario’s COVID-19 response: the importance of naming uncertainty, the long shadow of trauma on health-care workers, and a powerful story of learning a key leadership lesson by stepping into the “cracks between systems” to support migrant farm workers when “no help was coming.” Along the way, he talks about AI in healthcare, the loneliness of the CEO role, why he leads more like a jazz conductor than a classical maestro, and how music, teaching, and rest help him stay grounded. It's a candid, hopeful conversation about complexity, values, and leading humans in a system that never sleeps. Guelph General Hospital's website · Mark Walton's LinkedIn profile · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

45 min
2025-11-27

Reputation, purpose, and the mess of leadership | Tania Rhodes-Taylor

Stewardship in an Age of Noise. Executive Director of Communications “When leadership goes wrong is when people cling to the baton — and you have to peel their cold, dead hands off it." In this episode, I sit down with Tania Rhodes-Taylor, Executive Director of Communications and External Affairs at King’s College London, and Chair of the World 100 Reputation Network, to explore what it really takes to lead in a purpose-driven institution in turbulent times. She shares her origin story, being the first in her family to go to university, her experience and perspective gained from working in multiple industries and countries, and what drives her personally. Central themes are the importance of reputation, purpose, and stewardship in an age of noise. She says that "reputation is our currency" and that leader should be stewards rather than trying to be main character heroes. Tania also share about the importance of art in providing a window into society and culture. Key insights: 💡 Begin every decision with purpose and ask the right questions before deploying solutions. 💡 Treat reputation as currency as it enables the opportunities of tomorrow. 💡 Stay human and connected as leadership in complex institutions demands networks, trust and vulnerability. 💡 Embrace agility and honest institutional conversations about impact, differentiation and identity. 💡 Prioritise stewardship over personal spotlight and glory as your legacy should be an institution ready for the future. If you enjoyed this episode, please share with a colleague, subscribe to Messy with Daniel Atlin, and leave a review to help others discover the podcast. As ever, getting through the mess is easier with friends and colleagues. Connect with Tania on LinkedIn · Tania's firm: Otus Advisory · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

41 min
2025-11-12

Changing the narrative - regreening a community | Lynn Wells

Leading through renewal and reinvention. What does it take to lead after an institutional trauma and how to do this work without making it about you? Dr. Lynn Wells, President and Vice-Chancellor of Laurentian University, traces a steady path from crisis to renewal: changing a damaging narrative, rebuilding trust, and putting “student-first” at the centre of every hard call. Drawing on her earlier chapters at other institutions, from reconciliation work at First Nations University of Canada to student-centred leadership at MacEwan and pandemic decision-making at Brock — Lynn shows how process, patience, and humility become anchors when the ground keeps shifting. Lynn is candid about the human work beneath the headlines: helping a community heal, rejecting doom language, and choosing to lead alongside rather than from the front. She unpacks Laurentian’s tricultural identity, the deep bond with the city of Sudbury, and a powerful metaphor for recovery is the city’s decades-long “regreening,” a science-led restoration that mirrors the university’s rebuild. Along the way Lynn addresses why good governance beats quick fixes, how to keep purpose intact under political and financial pressure, and the disciplines that keep leaders steady: clear boundaries, exercise, and grace for human fallibility. This conversation is a grounded reflection on hope, discipline, and the long game of rebuilding step by step: one honest process, one student-first decision, and one reframed story at a time. About Laurentian University · Regreening Sudbury story · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

51 min
2025-10-29

A foot in two different worlds | Daniel Sharaiha

Balancing heart and mind. This “Messy” conversation is a bit of a departure from previous episodes as I talk to a bank executive in the Middle East who also works with NGOs and charities. Daniel Sharaiha grew up and lives in Jordan with one foot in business and the other in the NGO world. That tension, he says, keeps him humble: his head and heart never quite fit neatly into either sector, and that’s exactly why he sees complexity and the mess of leadership clearly. From welcoming millions of refugees in a water-scarce country to championing women’s participation in the workforce, Daniel frames leadership as service rooted in empathy, justice, and hope. He argues that empathy isn’t “soft” but rather it’s a strategic requirement that fuels organisations. His empathy stems from his identity as being an outsider, which provides a unique vantage point. He views influence and trust as the essential commodity for leadership in any organisation. In a world where “the unusual is now the usual,” Daniel leans on humour, improvisation, and resilience. He believes that we are in a world that requires generalists, and the ability to cross-train and build complementary skills the way a runner swims to become a better runner. He’s candid about failures (including a teenage hair-tonic misadventure that left him bald) and why leaders must bridge what seems as polar opposites: head and heart, profit and purpose, certainty and curiosity. Underpinning Daniel’s leadership is “hope”, and a desire to make the world a better place: building tables (sometimes literally) where people can gather, argue, laugh, and keep going together. Key lessons: • Empathy as an edge: it strengthens your leadership impact • Humour lowers defences: laughter opens the “window” • Improv is survival: change is “business as usual” • Cross-train your strengths • Dialogue over monologue: making meaning together Daniel Sharaiha's LinkedIn profile · Daniel Sharaiha's Convocation speech at HEC Paris · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn

34 min

5

out of 5

4 Ratings

Make Sense of the Mess of Leadership. Today’s leaders are facing unprecedented challenges. It’s a messy, complex world that requires a different approach and mindset to get things done. This is where you'll find conversations on how leaders in complex organizations navigate and make sense of the mess they find themselves in.

Creator

Solid Gold Podcasts #BeHeard
Years Active

2025 - 2026
Episodes

15
Rating

Clean
Copyright

© Solid Gold Podcasts and Audiobooks
Show Website

Messy with Daniel Atlin