Relentless Health Value‪™‬ Stacey Richter

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On the show today, I am going to use the term TPA (third-party administrator) and ASO (administrative services only) vendor kind of interchangeably here. But these are the entities that a plan sponsor—for example, a self-insured employer is a plan sponsor—but these plan sponsors will use to administer their plan. And one of the things that TPAs and ASOs administer is this so-called weekly claims wire.
Every week, self-funded employers get a weekly claims run charge so they can pay expenses related to their plan in weekly increments. The claims run usually comes with a register or an invoice. This invoice might be just kind of a total (“Hey, plan. Pay this amount.”). Or there might be a breakdown like, “Here’s your medical claims, and here’s your pharmacy claims.” Maybe there’s another level down from that of detail if the plan or their advisor is sophisticated enough and/or concerned enough about the fiduciary risk to dig in hard about what the charges are actually for.
I was talking about this topic earlier with Dana Erdfarb, who happens to be executive director of HR at a large financial services organization. Dana I’m definitely gonna credit for inspiring this conversation that I’m having today with Justin Leader. Dana was the first one to really bring to my attention just the level of hidden fees that are buried (many times) in these claims wires … because when I say buried in the claims wire, I mean not charged for via an administrative invoice. These hidden fees are also not called out in the ASO finance exhibit in the contract, by the way. So, yeah … hidden.
I don’t know … if you have to hide your charges, in my mind that’s a pretty big tell that your charges are worth hiding. Now the one thing I will point out is that just because the charges are worth hiding doesn’t necessarily mean that the services those charges are for are unwarranted. Some of these services are actually pretty worthwhile to do. There’s just a really big difference from a plan sponsor knowingly contracting at a known rate with a third party to do something versus paying for a service knowingly or unknowingly via fees hidden in a claims wire wherein the amount paid is not in the control of the one paying the bill.
Anyway, I was talking about all of this earlier, as I mentioned, with Dana Erdfarb. That conversation was exactly the framework that I needed to snag Justin Leader, my guest today, to come on the pod and really dig into the detail level of what’s going on with this claims wire. So, in this healthcare podcast, we’re gonna talk about the five fees that tend to be tucked in to many claims wires. We also talk about one bonus—not sure if it’s a fee—one bonus way that plan sponsors give money to vendors in ways the plan sponsor might be unaware of. Here are the five hidden fees that we talk about at length in the show today, and then I’ll cover the bonus:
1. Shared Savings Fees. This is where a member of a plan goes out of network, and the TPA/ASO goes and negotiates a discount from the out-of-network provider and then shares the savings. Get it? Shared savings? This category also might include BlueCard Access fees, which we talk about in the show. But there also could be overpayment recoupment fees lumped in here. This is where the TPA messes up, overpays, and then charges the plan sponsor a percentage of the money they just got back when they corrected their own mistake. I’m just gonna pause here while everyone contemplates how we’ve all gone so wrong in life to not have figured out a way to charge others when we correct our own mistakes. Here’s a link to a great LinkedIn post by Chris Deacon and a deep dive article on this topic.
2. Prior Auth Fees. Lots to unpack with this one, which Justin does in the pod.
3. Prepayment Integrity Fees. This is evaluation of the claim before it’s being paid. Listen to the show for how this ma

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Here’s a great musing that I read on LinkedIn:
How will alternative primary care models fare when growth mode gets balanced with profitability and VC-supported burn rate is transformed to Big Retail bottom-line expectations? Mission v. margin.
I’m gonna add to this: How will alternative primary care models, or even just doing good primary care, fare when it encounters the current system rife with perverse incentives of all kinds, including, yeah, for sure, Big Retail bottom-line expectations but also Big Health System and Big Payer bottom-line expectations and current business models?
This show from last year was wildly popular—maybe one of our most popular shows—and relisten to it in the current context of what’s going on right now in the primary care and MSO (Managed Services Only) space. Coming up, I’m gonna probably do a whole show on this if I can get my act together; but this encore is really relevant right now.
One piece of podcast business before we get into the episode: Please sign up for our weekly email if you haven’t already, especially if you consider yourself part of the Relentless Health Tribe. I am mentioning this not only because it’s a great way to keep track of our shows because you can do an email search to remember where you heard something, since a good deal of the show intros are in the emails, but also, there’s a plan afoot to hold some Zoom meetings to talk about different topics etc—and you won’t be notified of such goings-on unless you’re subscribed. You can unsubscribe whenever you want, by the way; and I am way too busy to send more than one email a week or spam if that was a concern.
On Relentless Health Value, I don’t often get into our guests’ personal histories. There are a bunch of reasons for this, which, if you buy me beer, we can talk podcast philosophy and I will tell you all about my personal, very arguable opinion here.
Nevertheless, in this healthcare podcast, we are going rogue; and I am talking with Scott Conard, MD, who shares his personal story. You may ask why I decided to go this route for this particular episode, and I will tell you point-blank that Dr. Conard’s experience, his narrative, is like the perfect analogue (Is analogue the right word [allegory, composite example]?). His story just sums up in a nutshell what happens when a PCP (primary care provider) does the right thing, manages to improve patient care for real, and then at some point gets sucked into the intrigue and gambits and maneuvering that is, sadly, the business of healthcare in the United States today.
Before we kick in, I just want to highlight a statement that Scott Conard makes toward the end of the show. He says:
So, this isn’t about punishing or blaming aspects of care that are being overrewarded today. It’s really about what’s the path forward for corporations, for middle-class Americans, and for primary care doctors who don’t choose to be part of a big system.
We have to figure out how to solve this problem. I hope people don’t hear this and think that there are horrible people at some not-for-profit hospital systems, for example. There are some great people at not-for-profit health systems, but they have some really screwed-up incentives.
A few notable notes from Dr. Scott Conard’s journey and words of wisdom that I will just highlight up front here:
He says that as a PCP, you actually can produce high-value care in a fee-for-service model … if you think differently and you change practice patterns. I have heard this from others as well, including most recently David Muhlestein, PhD, JD, who says this in an episode (EP393). As Dr. Scott Conard says later in this episode, healthcare organizations must embrace the art of medical leadership. So, I guess that’s a spoiler alert there.
Another point that Dr. Conard makes very crisply toward the end of the show is that doctors can kinda get pushed

For a full transcript of this episode, click here.
This show has implications for provider organizations of all stripes, especially those looking to succeed in value-based care or those who need patient trust and relationships for any other reason, including just patient volume.
This episode also is for provider organizations who are trying to prevent clinician burnout better.
It’s also for practices trying to get themselves into narrow networks where patient satisfaction is surveyed at some point in the process, and this includes Centers of Excellence networks.
You know what the rate critical is that I talk about on the show today with Jerry Durham that rarely, if ever, gets talked about in any of these contexts? It’s not some fancy data artificial intelligence thing or something else the doctor needs to be clicking on or nurses need to step up and handle. Nope. I’m talking about the front desk. What an overlooked secret to success or a clinician and clinical failure point!
Consider that what goes on on or about the front desk is either gonna set up the doctor or other provider for success or make it really really hard for them.
This is what I talk about today with Jerry Durham in this encore episode from a couple of years ago that is still so incredibly relevant because the insights that Jerry shares are so often overlooked and they impact both patients but also doctors and other clinicians in ways we don’t often think about but, in this era of staff shortages and burnout, I’d suggest maybe we should.
Here’s something I never really understood: how physicians and nurses more often than not get to be responsible for the entire patient journey, including, start to finish, patient satisfaction. But if you just take one look at any random poorly rated physician’s reviews, they’re usually littered with complaints about the front desk in the practice. Negative reviews, of course, are not limited to front desk diatribes; but there’s often a lot of front desk commentary in them.
It has always seemed to me to be a common and strange phenomenon in healthcare provider practices where the front desk is like a totally separate little fiefdom with a different mission statement and goals from the healthcare providers in the same exact office. Isn’t that odd when you think about it? I mean, first, the front desk is literally physically separated from everybody else. No matter which direction you approach from, there’s at a minimum a half-wall barrier surrounding them. Sometimes, in directions most likely to receive an attack, I suppose, there’s been added a big glass barrier.
Liliana Petrova pointed this out in episode 236 of the Relentless Health Value podcast, and it was really the first time that I had thought about it at all and also thought about the implicit message this sends not only to patients but also to clinicians. That whole physicality of the setup, it just screams, “We over here have nothing to do with the mission or vision of anyone else in this place. We have our own thing going on over here, and to do it, we need to be protected from you all and all of your chicanery and untoward goings-on, you doctors and nurses and patients!”
So, I was really inspired the first time I heard Jerry Durham from The Client Experience Company talking. His message, as I understood it, was that a practice really on board with helping patients achieve the best patient outcomes and, nothing for nothing, erode clinician burnout includes the front desk in their thinking. Jerry has said that there’s four phases in the patient life cycle, as he calls it, which is sort of a synonym for the patient journey:
1. Marketing
2. The moment that a patient/person engages with the clinic or office
3. Provider interactions
4. The post course of care
So, all of these phases—all four of them—are critical to both patient outcomes and experience but also, really, to business success. So, you kind of almost have to

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First of all, I just want to start out this pod and really thank everyone listening and for showing up for a show like this one. You do it and you are here because you care about patients/members.
It’s just so easy to feel like we’ll never be able to do enough, and that’s a rough, rough feeling. Please take a moment to truly hear how grateful I am for you being here and for doing all that you do and that you try to do.
I saw on the interwebs the other day a Marcus Aurelius quote. What he said was, “Be satisfied with even the smallest progress.” And I think this is really important to remember because nobody working in the healthcare industry, especially today, is ever probably gonna get anything close to a perfect solution. So instead, just aim for progress—even the smallest amount—and feel good about that, please.
This show is an important one for anybody either in the business of healthcare delivery or buying healthcare delivery services. It’s an exploration of what works and what doesn’t work and how what works can easily become what doesn’t work in the face of the real world.
This peril of cutting clinical “waste” perilousness all starts with the whole “Hey, let’s make some money, so we gotta scale and be efficient. We gotta do our thing at as low as possible a cost and maybe grow as fast as possible. We gotta keep our investors happy or pay off the debt we got saddled with or pay that giant management fee we’re being charged or compensate the C-suite at the level they’ve grown accustomed to.” So again, the “let’s be efficient and get everything repeatable” has entered the building.
The first point my guest today, Kate Wolin, ScD, makes about all of this—and this is exactly the same point that Rik Renard made in episode 427—efficient to what endgame? Now, it turns out, surveys show, only a small, small percentage of healthcare delivery solution providers are measuring outcomes of pretty much any kind.
So, how do we even know if cutting so-called waste is actually waste at all? I mean, in the absence of any actual measures—here’s a hypothetical for you—someone could look around: “Hey, I see these nurses. They’re all just sitting around chatting with patients and, I don’t know, talking about throw rugs? What is this? An episode of HGTV? Who cares if a patient with diabetic neuropathy has throw rugs in their hallway? Let’s tell these nurses chop-chop, get them on the computer using AI to be efficient, right? Let’s get rid of that clinical waste.”
I just made a point in the most sarcastic way possible, but the bottom line is this: It’s actually really efficient to not engage patients in these ways, right? Patients, they talk slow, they ask questions that seem irrelevant, and they’re time-consuming. It’s very efficient to not build relationships or foster trust or, I don’t know, assess fall risks … but whatever is going on is also going to fail in that model—from a patient outcome standpoint at least.
Here’s a quote from Sergei Polevikov, with some light edits. He wrote on LinkedIn: Primary care is not scalable in the same way as Scrub Daddy or Bombas Socks. That’s something not taught in MBA and CFA programs. Someone should have told Walgreens, CVS, Amazon, and Walmart.
They also probably should tell a whole bunch of point solutions and payers. Also, some health system execs or pharmacy leaders might also want to get that memo.
What I really liked about the conversation with Kate Wolin in this healthcare podcast is that she retains optimism in the face of all of this. She offers advice for how to navigate the balance between mission and margin in a way that’s better for patients and also sustainable financially. She talks about three points:
1. Founders and investors being in alignment and the essential nature of that
2. The importance of having clinical leadership and a team dynami

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There’s this meme that’s going around on the interwebs with the caption, “Sometimes the shortest distance in between two places isn’t a straight line.” What? Yeah, because actually there’s three dimensions in the real world.
So, when we all consider the real world, understanding the contours of reality and aligning with them is the only way to devise a winning strategy—not only if you’re timing rubber balls getting dropped off straight or curved slopes. I’m saying this because I’ve seen (and you’ve seen) a whole lot of great ideas fail because someone draws a very elegant straight line on a whiteboard, calls it the fastest and most efficient way to get from here to a desired outcome … and then the plan ultimately fails.
What contours am I talking about taking into account right now? Oh, pretty much the entirety of US healthcare. If you combine the complexities and perverse incentives of the industry itself plus the art and science of medicine plus epidemiology and social determinants and I’m probably forgetting other dimensions, you have contours that are mountain ranges. Not considering the reality of those elevations and just thinking there’s some kind of straight line here to be found is really a kind of delusion. Now, investors and C-suites may like these delusions, but let’s just get real: It’s not gonna actually work out as written.
One case study that I am talking about is digital health solutions or pharma companies even or pretty much anyone who thinks that the fastest way to increase sales is to talk about the product, let’s just say as one example. That’s the straight line to growth: Talk about the product. Another one is stripping away things that feel like they’re a waste of time in the name of efficiency without actually checking if you’re cutting into essential stuff. I talk about this at length with Kate Wolin, ScD, in an episode coming up. Jodilyn Owen has a thing or two to say on this point in episode 421 also.
But let me be clear: I’m not talking about anyone listening to the show today making this mistake, at least wholesale. We all make it incrementally; it’s hard to avoid. But you get this. That’s why you’re here.
You get that the fastest path anywhere is truly understanding the problems faced by customers. And then it’s showing how the product or whatever you’re doing helps solve those problems. No one cares how efficient or safe your thing is if it’s accomplishing something that no one cares about, no one gets paid for, and/or can figure out how to deploy or use. This is what the entire episode last week, episode 430 with Barbara Wachsman, was about.
Why is all of this relevant? It’s actually what makes Relentless Health Value relevant, frankly.
Many listeners—and shout-outs to Nate Walker and MaryCarol Evans—say that this is why they listen to Relentless Health Value and what Relentless Health Value helps them with: finding those contours, understanding reality so that it can be aligned with. And on the show today, Kenny Cole, MD, I gotta say, could be really impactful in this regard as well as in others.
Nate Walker wrote, “[Relentless Health Value] inspires me every day to stay true to my desire to make a difference in healthcare for patients by adding transparency and helping to connect the dots within this fragmented system.”
MaryCarol Evans has alluded to the same thing multiple times as well and often highlights that Relentless Health Value helps her think through and identify the small things that are possible—she says there’s plenty of them—that have a huge impact on the lives of plan members.
Dr. Kenny Cole is from Ochsner Health System, and I love this conversation today because it has lessons for anybody working in a clinic or managing a clinic who wants to learn from a master. But it also is really interesting for anyone who’s trying to work with, alongsid

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We have been spending a bunch of time here on Relentless Health Value talking about PBMs (pharmacy benefit managers) lately and pharmacy benefits, but we are moving into a new topic area. It sort of kicked off three weeks ago with the pod with Rik Renard (EP427) on the importance of care flows if you are a digital health vendor trying to get consistent outcomes. But then I actually went back to the PBM/pharmacy benefits topic to talk with Luke Slindee, PharmD (EP429) and Julie Selesnick (EP428) because, you know, the J&J lawsuit. But now we’re back on the “let’s talk about digital health and point solutions” bus.
I wanted to talk today about the trend to sell to employers and advice for digital health solutions who want to sell to employers, but there’s a little bit of advice here for employers themselves. At a minimum, this conversation affords a little bit of transparency to employers about what’s going on on the other side of the table.
So, as I just said, in this healthcare podcast we talk about selling to employers. Why sell to employers is probably a first question. Well, one reason Barb offers is because that’s where the money is. It’s like that Willie Sutton quote. Someone asked him why he robbed banks, and he replied, “Because that’s where the money is.” I mean, hospitals know this. Have you seen their commercial rates and their multiples over Medicare? Payers know this, too. Payers who use their ability to raise commercial rates as leverage to get lower MA (Medicare Advantage) rates for themselves … they know this. So, yeah. Why wouldn’t a point solution entrepreneur take a page out of that business model? It’s saying the quiet part out loud, but … yeah, I guess it’s good to know when you’re the numero uno healthcare industry sugar daddy (or sugar mommy, as the case may be). Every employer listening right now has already opened up their phone and started an email to me.
Barb gets into four pieces of advice for entrepreneurs looking to sell to employers:
1. There has to be a market that has a need for what you are selling, and there won’t be a market with a need unless the problem you’re solving for is big enough—and right now, I am recapping things that Barb says on the show—because when she talks about whether the problem is big enough, she means as per the employer and maybe because the fallout from that big problem accrues to the employer in a way that the employer fully appreciates.
As I say in the pod that follows, the ground is littered with entrepreneurs, often really smart people who oftentimes I truly admire. These are individuals who found a problem for patients (or sometimes even clinicians) and solved for it and then discovered that no one will pay them for whatever they’ve done, because we can’t forget that, in the healthcare industry, one person’s waste is somebody else’s profit. There is show after show here at Relentless Health Value that showcases the sacred honeypots where these perverse incentives lie, so if you are an entrepreneur, please follow the dollar and see where it leads before getting too far. That would be my advice. I’d recommend the show with Rob Andrews (EP415) and the one with Jodilyn Owen (EP421) as a great place to start.
One comment about the whole “it’s gotta be a need that employers appreciate” point that Barb makes which caught my ear, she rhetorically asks, “Should HR purchasers be buying solutions that improve health and well-being?” And the short answer is no. Barb says none of that should be the primary driver. The primary driver, Barb mentions, should be about optimization of human capital to drive business outcomes. She says every decision a business makes should be about maximizing business outcomes.
Now, I could take this a bunch of different ways; and viscerally it has, again, kind of a “quiet part out loud” vibe. But in certain ways, it also