The Driverless Digest Podcast

Harry Campbell
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Covering the intersection of autonomy x rideshare, and the business of AVs. www.thedriverlessdigest.com

  1. 6 DAYS AGO

    How the CPUC Handles AV Permits, Data, and Enforcement (Pat Tsen)

    This week’s podcast is brought to you by Terawatt – purpose-built charging for autonomous vehicle fleets. Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and Substack. Transcripts are also available by clicking on the “transcripts” button in the top right corner of this post. In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Shao (Pat) Tsen, Deputy Executive Director for Consumer Policy, Transportation, and Enforcement at the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC). We start with an overview of the CPUC and Pat’s role in it. We also break down the split between the CPUC and DMV, clarifying who regulates what, and what companies actually need to do to launch an autonomous vehicle service in California, including the different permit types required along the way. Pat explains the CPUC’s technology-agnostic approach to AV regulation, and why Tesla’s current robotaxi deployment isn’t considered an autonomous vehicle service under CPUC jurisdiction. We then dig into what it really takes to secure an AV permit, and whether the approval process is more subjective or objective in practice. The conversation also covers enforcement, reporting, and data collection requirements for AV companies, including new stoppage event reporting rules and what data is ultimately made public. We also get into how the CPUC approaches transparency, accountability, and the balance between innovation and public safety—and where its regulatory oversight starts to reach its limits. Chapters * (00:00) Introduction to Shao (Pat) Tsen * (03:34) Introduction to the CPUC and their areas of regulation * (05:03) Pat’s role at the CPUC * (08:37) CPUC vs DMV: Who Regulates What? * (10:54) Steps to launching an autonomous vehicle service in California—and the different types of permits * (14:05) The CPUC’s technology-agnostic role in AV regulation * (15:05) Why Tesla’s robotaxi isn’t considered an autonomous vehicle service in California * (18:35) What it takes to get an AV permit from the CPUC * (21:35) Is the CPUC’s AV permit approval process more subjective or objective? * (24:55) Enforcement, reporting, and data collection for AV companies under the CPUC’s jurisdiction * (30:21) What autonomous vehicle companies currently have to report to the CPUC, including new stoppage event requirements * (32:45) What AV company data is made publicly available? * (37:10) How the CPUC handles new edge cases and teleoperations * (41:44) Limits of the CPUC’s oversight * (43:00) Conclusions and final thoughts Designing Charging Hubs for Autonomous Fleets We are excited to partner with Terawatt, one of the leading providers of charging infrastructure. To learn more about Terawatt’s network of AV charging hubs and track record of 99%+ uptime, reach out to Logan Szidik at lszidik@terawattinfrastructure.com Notes/Links: * You can find Pat on Linkedin. * Relevant links for the CPUC’s AV program * Decision and resolution numbers which set rules or approved new authority to operate * D.18-05-043 aka the “Pilot Decision,” created the AV Pilot program and set requirements for participants * D.20-11-046 as modified by D.21-05-017 aka the “Deployment Decision,” created AV Deployment program and set the requirements for participants * D.24-11-002 aka the AV Data Decision, expanded AV data reporting requirements including incident reporting and “stoppage event” reporting * R.-25-08-013 (OIR opened August 2025) – the new AV rulemaking to update policies/processes/rules for AV passenger transportation * General Order (GO) 157-E: TCP Regulations * Resolutions: * Resolution TL-19144 (2023) – approved Waymo for Phase I Driverless AV Passenger Service Deployment * Resolution TL-19145 (2023) – approved Cruise (Phase 1 driverless deployment authorization) * AV Program Quarterly Reporting (link). * To file a complaint, you can fill out this form Passenger complaint form and email to consumer-affairs@cpuc.ca.gov * To submit a public comment in the ongoing AV rulemaking, as mentioned at the 41:25 timestamp, you can access the public comment tab here R2508013 -Harry This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.thedriverlessdigest.com

    43 min
  2. The Chips Powering Autonomous Driving with Augustin Friedel

    18 MAR

    The Chips Powering Autonomous Driving with Augustin Friedel

    Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and Substack. Transcripts are also available by clicking on the “transcripts” button in the top right corner of this post. Today, we are featuring a guest podcast from Daniel Abreu Marques, host of Autonomy Insiders, the companion podcast to his newsletter The AV Market Strategist. Daniel regularly covers the global autonomous vehicle industry with a particular focus on strategy, and we’ve long enjoyed reading and supporting each other’s work. While the show keeps a close eye on the US market, this podcast places a special emphasis on the European and Chinese ecosystems. In this episode, Daniel Abreu Marques sits down with Augustin Friedel, an expert in software-defined vehicles (SDV) and AI-enabled mobility. They dive into the critical role of high-performance silicon in autonomous driving, exploring the evolution of System-on-a-Chip (SoC) technology, the key factors driving chip selection, and the intensifying competition among providers. They also discuss the growing trend of OEMs developing in-house chips and the long-term impact of semiconductor shortages. Chapters * (02:16) Introduction to SOCs and Their Importance * (04:23) Critical Role of High-Performance Chips in Autonomous Driving * (08:52) Choosing the Right Chip: Performance vs. Efficiency * (12:27) Major Players in the Chip Market for Autonomous Vehicles * (15:35) The Push for In-House Chip Development by OEMs * (18:41) Competition and Collaboration in the Chip Industry * (23:46) Market Penetration of High-Performance Chips * (25:49) Level 3 Autonomy: Challenges and Perspectives * (27:51) China’s Ambition in Semiconductor Independence * (29:19) Collaborations and Acquisitions in Chip Development * (32:22) The Wake-Up Call of the Semiconductor Shortage * (34:13) The Role of Tier 1 Suppliers in the New Ecosystem * (37:45) Understanding the Chip Supply Chain * (40:56) The Importance of Node Size in Chip Production * (44:17) Evaluating the Best Chip for Level 4 Vehicles * (46:31) Key Questions for Semiconductor Strategy Notes/Links: * You can find Daniel on Linkedin and Twitter/X. * You can find Augustin on Linkedin. * The Autonomy Insiders Podcast is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube and Amazon Music. * Daniel’s Newsletter: The AV Market Strategist (link). This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.thedriverlessdigest.com

    48 min
  3. AV Fleet Management with Ming Maa (Moove AV CEO)

    9 MAR

    AV Fleet Management with Ming Maa (Moove AV CEO)

    Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and Substack. Transcripts are also available by clicking on the “transcripts” button in the top right corner of this post. In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Ming Maa, Co-Founder and CEO of Moove AV, a global fleet provider for autonomous vehicles, and Waymo’s current fleet partner in Phoenix, Miami and London. We discussed Ming’s time at Grab and the key rideshare lessons that ultimately inspired the creation of Moove AV. Ming explains how rideshare fleet models differ inside and outside the U.S., and what separates Moove’s traditional rideshare business (Moove.io) from Moove’s AV-focused operations. We also dive into what it actually means to be an AV fleet partner. Ming shares why Waymo chose Moove AV, the challenges behind operating autonomous fleets, and how the company works with partners across different markets. We also talk about how Moove decides where to place its fleet depots, maintenance, and charging infrastructure, along with lessons learned from managing fleets globally. Later in the episode, Ming breaks down the operational differences between managing autonomous fleets and human-driven fleets, including the capabilities Moove AV had to build specifically for AVs. We also explore which parts of depot operations could eventually be automated, whether there are redundancies in AV fleet operations that could be trimmed to reduce costs, and why fleet management itself could become one of the biggest competitive advantages in the AV industry. Chapters * (00:00) Introduction to Ming Maa * (02:25) Rideshare lessons from Ming’s time at Grab, and the inspiration behind Moove AV’s creation * (06:00) Rideshare fleet models inside/outside the U.S. * (08:25) The differences between Moove.io and Moove AV * (09:50) Why did Waymo choose Moove AV as a fleet partner? * (12:43) The challenges of being an AV fleet partner * (13:47) How does Moove AV work with partners in their various markets? * (15:01) How Moove AV picks their sites for fleet maintenance/charging infrastructure * (17:30) AV fleet management lessons from different markets * (21:50) How Moove AV’s partnership impacts Waymo’s operational metrics * (23:25) What capabilities did Moove AV develop for AV fleets that are different from human-driven fleets? * (25:01) What processes in AV depot operations could be automated? * (26:07) Are there redundancies in AV fleet operations that could be trimmed to cut costs/save time? * (30:20) Does fleet management become the next moat in the AV space? * (33:17) Conclusions and final thoughts Notes/Links: * You can find Ming Maa on Linkedin. * Moove’s website (link). * The TDD newsletter edition featuring RoboDock, mentioned at the 24:59 timestamp (link). -Harry This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.thedriverlessdigest.com

    34 min
  4. Inside Waymo’s Remote Assistance Program with Dr. Missy Cummings

    3 MAR

    Inside Waymo’s Remote Assistance Program with Dr. Missy Cummings

    Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and Substack. Transcripts are also available by clicking on the “transcripts” button in the top right corner of this post. In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Missy Cummings, professor and director of the Mason Autonomy and Robotics Center at George Mason University, and former Senior Safety Advisor at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). We go deep on one of the most misunderstood pieces of the AV stack: remote operations. Dr. Cummings breaks down the difference between remote assistance and true teleoperation, why latency matters more than most people realize, and why “median latency” can be a misleading metric when safety is on the line. We also unpack common misconceptions around Waymo’s remote assistance model, where it works well, and where it could improve. Dr. Cummings shares her perspective on whether offshore remote operators pose safety risks, and why local licensing, training, and regulatory clarity are essential as the industry scales. Our discussion then turns to the lessons from Cruise’s collapse, what remote operations revealed about the limits of current AV systems, and how regulators should think about oversight without stifling innovation. We examine Waymo’s remote operator-to-vehicle ratio, and wrap up with a broader question: will AVs ever be fully autonomous? And what should policymakers, investors, and the public actually look at when evaluating safety claims and remote operations? Chapters * (00:00) Introduction to Dr. Missy Cummings * (05:55) Remote assistance vs remote driving (teleoperation): characteristics and differences * (10:45) Effects of time latency on remote operation * (14:55) Why “median latency” is misleading and why maximum latency is the number that really matters. * (17:02) The misconceptions around Waymo’s remote assistance process, and how it could improve * (20:26) Are offshore remote operators a safety risk? The importance of local licensing and training * (26:06) Remote operation lessons from Cruise’s demise * (27:05) What should be the limits of regulatory oversight in autonomy? * (33:14) Waymo’s remote operator-to-vehicle ratio, and the rarity of fully autonomous systems. * (37:39) Will AVs ever be fully autonomous? * (39:25) What the public and regulators should look out for when evaluating Waymo’s safety record and remote operations. * (42:05) Conclusions and final thoughts Notes/Links: * You can find Dr. Cummings on LinkedIn, where she’ll announce the publication of her upcoming article mentioned at the 06:35 timestamp. * Brad Templeton’s article I mentioned at the 12:13 timestamp: Waymo Runs A Red Light And The Difference Between Humans And Robots (link, no paywall). * Waymo’s latest blog post on their remote assistance, mentioned at the 14:52 timestamp (link). * Waymo’s earlier blog post outlining the “Phone a friend” structure of their fleet response I mentioned at the 17:04 timestamp (link). * John Deniston’s TDD guest post I mentioned at the 24:41 timestamp (link). -Harry This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.thedriverlessdigest.com

    43 min

  5. 19 JAN

    A Deep Dive into Waymo’s CPUC Data with Dr. Matthew Raifman

    This week’s podcast is brought to you by Terawatt – purpose-built charging for autonomous vehicle fleets. Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and Substack. We now have transcripts available too (Click on the “transcripts” button in the top right corner of this post to access them). In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Matthew Raifman, Research Lead for policy and automated vehicles at UC Berkeley’s SafeTREC Center, who has researched on the safety and societal impacts of automated vehicles. We dive into Matt’s work at SafeTREC and how the group collaborates with state agencies and funding bodies on transportation safety and policy. We discuss what drew Matt to the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) data from Waymo that he recently analyzed in The Driverless Digest, and whether cities and autonomous vehicle companies are truly aligned in their goals. We unpack the current state of AV data reporting, including how vehicle miles traveled (VMT) are defined across different periods for rideshare and autonomous vehicles, what trends are beginning to emerge, and where there may be opportunities for better alignment between cities and AV operators. Matt explains the concept of deadheading in both AV and human-driven rideshare fleets, methods for reducing it, and why distinctions like P1 versus P2 VMT periods matter—both for cities trying to manage congestion and for AV companies optimizing their operations. We also explore the environmental implications of autonomous vehicles, what CPUC data reveals about Waymo’s time between trips and passenger wait times, and the open question of whether AVs should idle or drive around between trips. Drawing lessons from early rideshare pick-up and drop-off zones, we discuss potential approaches to reducing congestion as AV fleets scale, examine the limitations of currently available AV data, and the key questions that remain unanswered. Chapters * (00:00) Introduction to Dr. Matthew Raifman * (02:15) Matt’s work at UC Berkeley’s SafeTrec Center * (03:17) How does SafeTrec collaborate with state agencies and funding bodies? * (04:41) What got Matt interested in the Waymo California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) data he wrote about in TDD? * (7:00) Do cities and AV companies have aligned goals? * (09:20) The current state of AV data reporting * (11:00) Definitions of Vehicle Miles Travelled (VMT) periods for rideshare and AVs * (12:30) Trends in the (VMT) periods, and synergies between AV companies and cities * (16:20) AV vs human driven rideshare deadheading, methods of reducing it * (20:45) The P1 vs P2 VMT periods theory, and benefits of P1 to AV companies * (27:35) How AVs impact the environment * (29:30) Matt’s post in TDD, and what it says about Waymo’s time between trips, and waiting time * (34:40) Should AVs stop or drive around between trips? * (38:44) Lessons from pick-up and drop-off zones in early rideshare, and potential solutions to congestion * (45:00) The limitations of the currently available AV data, and some questions that still remain unanswered. * (43:39) Conclusion and final thoughts Designing Charging Hubs for Autonomous Fleets We are excited to partner with Terawatt, one of the leading providers of charging infrastructure. To learn more about Terawatt’s network of AV charging hubs and track record of 99%+ uptime, reach out to Logan Szidik at lszidik@terawattinfrastructure.com Notes/Links: * The views expressed by Dr. Matthew Raifman in this episode are his own, and do not reflect the views of the Regents of the University of California or UC Berkeley. * You can find Matt on Linkedin and Twitter/X. * Link to Matt’s article on The Driverless Digest about Waymo’s time between trips, mentioned at the 29:30 timestamp (link). * Link to Matt’s Linkedin post/chart on Waymo’s deadheading, mentioned at the 21:14 timestamp (link). * Link to my Waymo deadheading article, mentioned at the 49:45 timestamp (link). * SafeTREC at UC Berkeley, where you can find Matt’s articles and other ones from his colleagues (link). -Harry This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.thedriverlessdigest.com

    50 min
  6. Autonomous Delivery Robots with Coco CEO Zach Rash

    12 JAN

    Autonomous Delivery Robots with Coco CEO Zach Rash

    This episode was recorded live in person at Coco’s office in Venice, CA, so is a great one to watch on YouTube. Otherwise, you can listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Substack. We now have transcripts available too (Click on the “transcripts” button in the top right corner of this post to access them). In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Zach Rash, Co-founder and CEO of Coco, the autonomous delivery robotics company transforming last-mile delivery in cities around the world. Zach catches us up on Coco’s progress and explains what’s fuelling this wave of sidewalk delivery robots. He breaks down how Coco’s robots fit into the broader robotics ecosystem, how their form and capabilities have evolved over time, and what autonomy really looks like in practice, including the role teleoperation still plays today. We also cover Coco’s delivery volume, fleet size, and teleoperation model, as well as industry sentiment around human-in-the-loop systems and how Zach thinks about them. Zach also shares his perspective on autonomous delivery versus robotaxis, and how merchants interact with Coco’s robots during real-world deliveries. We explore the customer experience around pricing, no tipping, and delivery costs, along with Coco’s unit economics, operating costs, and utilization. The episode also looks at where Coco fits within the on-demand delivery ecosystem, how autonomous delivery can support local economies while lowering costs for AV companies, and the importance of partnerships with platforms like Uber and DoorDash. Zach closes by sharing what excites him most about Coco’s future and where he sees the company heading next. Chapters (00:00) Introduction to Zach Rash and Coco (02:10) Catching up on Coco, and their progress so far (03:56) The second wave of sidewalk delivery robots, and what’s fuelling it (05:40) How Coco’s robots fit into the robotics ecosystem (07:10) How has Coco’s autonomous robots have evolved over time in form and function? (09:29) How autonomous are Coco’s autonomous delivery robots? and their teleoperation (10:30) Coco’s delivery volume by numbers, and fleet size (11:30) How Coco’s teleoperation works (13:14) Industry sentiments around teleoperation, and how Zach looks at it (16:15) How Coco sources their teleoperators (17:50) What Zach thinks about autonomous delivery vs robotaxis (21:48) How restaurants/merchants interact with Coco’s robots during delivery (22:50) How Coco’s customer experience works with no tipping, and delivery costs (25:49) The unit economics of Coco’s robots, operating costs, and utilization (33:15) Where Coco fits in the on-demand and delivery ecosystem (34:40) How autonomous delivery benefits the local economies, and reduces costs for AV companies (36:25) Coco’s partnership ecosystem overview (37:31) How significant are Uber and DoorDash in the delivery ecosystem, and how independent are merchants? (38:53) What are you most excited about in the future of Coco? (41:30) Conclusion and final thoughts Notes/Links: * You can find Zach on LinkedIn (link), and Twitter/X (link). * Coco’s website (link). * Coco’s last fundraising announcement, mentioned at the 00:55 timestamp (link, no paywall). -Harry Thanks for being a subscriber to The Driverless Digest! If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to share it with someone who might like it too. And if this email was forwarded to you, why not subscribe and stick around :) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.thedriverlessdigest.com

    42 min
  7. Lessons from the Great Waymo Outage of 2025 (Brad Templeton)

    6 JAN

    Lessons from the Great Waymo Outage of 2025 (Brad Templeton)

    Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and Substack. We now have transcripts available too (Click on the “transcripts” button in the top right corner of this post to access them). In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Brad Templeton, a longtime speaker and consultant in the autonomy space, who has advised companies including Waymo, Zoox, Cruise, and Starship since their early days. He also runs Robocars.com and writes about self-driving technology for Forbes. We talk through the recent Waymo outage in San Francisco that left robotaxis stuck across the city, what actually happened, and how the situation unfolded. We break down the timeline of the incident, the root cause of the incident, and why remote operators became such a bottleneck during the outage. We also discuss how transparent AV companies should be when things go wrong, what Waymo can learn from past incidents at Cruise, and whether systems like Waymo are ready to handle ‘edge cases’ such as dead intersections. Brad explains how remote assistance works in practice, how Waymo uses it today, and where its limits start to show. The conversation then zooms out to compare Waymo’s performance to human drivers, how outages like this shape public perception, and what role regulators could play in improving robotaxi safety going forward. We finish up with Brad’s thoughts on what this incident means for Waymo, and what it says about the current state of autonomy more broadly. Chapters (00:00) Introduction to Brad Templeton (01:01) The great Waymo outage of 2025, and facts (06:05) Transparency with AV companies and lessons from Cruise (07:06) Can Waymo handle dead intersections? (09:25) Timeline of the Waymo outage (10:30) The main cause of the Waymo blackout, and teleoperation (13:30) How remote operation works with robotaxis (15:50) Remote operation at Waymo (18:50) How Waymo could improve for future occurrences, and lessons from the past/present (39:24) Waymo vs human drivers, and public perception (42:50) How regulators could help improve robotaxi safety (54:00) Conclusion and final thoughts Notes/Links: * You can find Brad on LinkedIn (link), and Twitter/X (link). * Brad’s Forbes article on the Waymo outage, mentioned at the 03:00 timestamp (link, no paywall). * You can also find Brad’s articles on Forbes (link). * Waymo’s article explaining the outage, mentioned at the 10:04 timestamp (link). -Harry Thanks for being a subscriber to The Driverless Digest! If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to share it with someone who might like it too. And if this email was forwarded to you, why not subscribe and stick around :) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.thedriverlessdigest.com

    55 min

  8. 29/12/2025

    Why Waymo Replaces Nannies and Parents, Not Uber Drivers (Sam Lessin)

    Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and Substack. We now have transcripts available too (Click on the “transcripts” button in the top right corner of this post to access them). In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Sam Lessin, an early VP of Product at Facebook and currently co-founder and GP at Slow Ventures, a generalist early-stage VC firm with offices in San Francisco and Boston. We explore how autonomous vehicles—particularly Waymo—are already changing everyday life in San Francisco, and why Sam believes their biggest impact may be on families. Sam shares what he’s observed about Waymo’s progress over the past few years, why kids and childcare could be the real unlock for autonomy, and how AVs might reduce the financial and career tradeoffs that come with parenting. We also dig into practical questions, including what age it could make sense for a child to ride alone in a robotaxi, how autonomous vehicles could make suburban living more appealing, and what that shift could mean for housing and real estate. We compare autonomous rides to human-driven services like Uber, discuss Waymo’s pricing and cost structure, and examine how widespread AV adoption could expand the overall ridesharing market. The conversation also covers the short and long term effects of autonomy and automation, from job displacement and birth rates to investment opportunities in AVs. Chapters (00:00) Introduction to Sam Lessin (03:20) What Sam has noticed about Waymo in San Francisco over the last few years (05:10) Why Waymo’s biggest impact will be with kids and childcare (08:00) The financial and career cost of having kids, and how Waymo can help (09:50) What age does Sam think is appropriate for a kid to use a Waymo? (10:50) How Waymo makes the suburbs more appealing, and it’s impact on real estate (14:10) How AVs compare to human driven rideshare like Uber (16:30) Short and long term effects of AV proliferation: Job loss, ridesharing Total Addressible Market (TAM), birth rates (18:19) Insights on Waymo pricing and cost vs rideshare (19:58) How AVs and automation could make parenting easier (22:03) Investment opportunities in the advent of AVs and AI (25:27) Conclusion and final thoughts Notes/Links: * You can find Sam on Linkedin (link). * You can also find him on Twitter/X (link). * Sam’s personal website (link). * Slow Ventures’ website (link). * Sam’s post about Waymo replacing nanny and parent chauffeur jobs, mentioned at the 05:12 timestamp (link). * My previous podcast episode with Brad Hargreaves explaining the effect of robotaxis on real estate, mentioned at the 22:11 timestamp (link). Designing Charging Hubs for Autonomous Fleets We are excited to partner with Terawatt, one of the leading providers of charging infrastructure. To learn more about Terawatt’s network of AV charging hubs and track record of 99%+ uptime, reach out to Logan Szidik at lszidik@terawattinfrastructure.com -Harry This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.thedriverlessdigest.com

    26 min
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Covering the intersection of autonomy x rideshare, and the business of AVs. www.thedriverlessdigest.com

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