The Geek In Review

Greg Lambert & Marlene Gebauer

Welcome to The Geek in Review, where podcast hosts, Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert discuss innovation and creativity in legal profession.

  1. Fighting for Your Light: Anusia Gillespie on AI, Legal Innovation, and the Soul Toll of Law

    3 DAYS AGO

    Fighting for Your Light: Anusia Gillespie on AI, Legal Innovation, and the Soul Toll of Law

    This week we are joined by Anusia Gillespie, Enterprise Lead at vLex and debut novelist, as she shares her unique vantage point on the intersection of legal technology and the human side of law. Anusia traces her journey from commercial real estate finance attorney to global innovation leader, with roles at Harvard, UnitedLex, and Eversheds Sutherland, all driven by a mission to help lawyers by rethinking the systems they work in. Along the way she discovered that business-of-law blind spots, like a shocking embezzlement incident early in her career, revealed deeper structural issues that inspired her focus on system change. Anusia describes how legal tech adoption often falters when lawyers’ reactions—especially negative ones—are misunderstood. Far from being a setback, she sees strong reactions as opportunities to engage skeptics and convert them into champions. She shares a vivid example from her current work at vLex, where an initially frustrated lateral partner became one of the firm’s most enthusiastic adopters after receiving attentive support and seeing immediate client impact.  The conversation pivots to Anusia’s new novel Soul Toll, which blends contemporary and fantasy storytelling to examine the personal cost of high-performance legal culture. The book’s central metaphor, the “soul toll,” measures the tradeoff between meaningful work and draining obligations. Through her protagonist Ember, a high-achieving lawyer on a seemingly predestined path, Anusia explores how professional ambition can be engineered and how easy it is to let subtle daily tolls overwhelm the soul. Her goal is to give lawyers and other readers a practical framework for assessing that balance in their own lives. As AI reshapes legal work, Anusia argues that lawyers need both the courage and the space to “fight for their light,” a phrase she uses as both a personal mantra and a rallying call in the novel. She emphasizes that the industry’s relentless pace will not slow down on its own, so lawyers and firm leaders must deliberately set boundaries and create pauses to prevent burnout. The discussion also explores how technology can relieve drudgery while prompting a new definition of professional competence that values human insight as much as efficiency. Anusia closes with a challenge to law firm leaders: confront the mindsets shaped by the billable hour and empower lawyers to think beyond six-minute increments. From her perspective, real change begins in how lawyers structure their time and measure success. Whether she is leading enterprise strategy at vLex or writing visionary fiction, Anusia keeps a single purpose in view—helping lawyers build healthier, more sustainable careers. Listeners can find Soul Toll on Amazon and connect with Anusia on LinkedIn to continue the conversation. Order Soul Toll today on Amazon Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]   ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Transcript:

    30 min
  2. Building Consistent AI for Contract Review with LegalOn's Daniel Lewis

    29 SEPT

    Building Consistent AI for Contract Review with LegalOn's Daniel Lewis

    Daniel Lewis joins us this week to trace a path from Ravel Law to LexisNexis to LegalOn, with a throughline of data-driven thinking and practical outcomes for lawyers. Stanford roots shaped early work on judicial analytics, then a front-row view inside a global publisher broadened focus to content, guidance, and the daily reality of in-house teams. That experience pointed straight at contract review as a top pain for corporate counsel, which led to LegalOn’s product mission and global push. Data access still shapes progress. Case law digitization advanced through projects like Harvard’s archive, yet comprehensive coverage, secondary sources, and news remain guarded by incumbents. Daniel explains why large datasets give scale, why startups face steep hurdles, and why thoughtful product scope matters. The lesson, build where data, workflow, and user value intersect. LegalOn’s hybrid approach blends large models with attorney-built playbooks, practice notes, and suggested clause language. Consistency matters more than clever one-offs, so reviews align to standards, not model whimsy. Daniel shares a memorable demo from a rival where a phantom “California Code section 17” alert appeared, a cautionary tale that underscores the need for guardrails, verification, and explainability. Conversation turns to multi-step agents and matter management. Picture an intake email from sales, missing key fields. An agent requests what is needed, opens a matter, applies a tailored playbook, highlights non-negotiables and fallbacks, then keeps stakeholders informed as work progresses. LegalOn also converts existing playbooks and prior redlines into AI-ready guidance, reducing setup chores while preserving organizational risk preferences. Finally, Daniel outlines new muscles for legal teams. Daily AI usage shifts time from line-by-line edits to judgment, negotiation strategy, and process leadership. Tech fluency, business orientation, and change leadership rise in importance, along with a steady diet of outside-legal analysis from voices like Ben Thompson and Benedict Evans. The message, free lawyers from sludge, raise the ceiling on strategic work, and build for long-term improvement across the legal function. Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]   ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Transcript:

    41 min
  3. The Models Are the Product: Gabe Pereyra on Building an AI Associate and Matter-Centric Workflows

    22 SEPT

    The Models Are the Product: Gabe Pereyra on Building an AI Associate and Matter-Centric Workflows

    This week, we talk with Gabe Pereyra, President and co-founder at Harvey, about his path from DeepMind and Google Brain to launching Harvey with Winston Weinberg; how a roommate’s real-world legal workflows met early GPT-4 access and OpenAI backing; why legal emerged as the right domain for large models; and how personal ties to the profession plus a desire to tackle big societal problems shaped a mission to apply advanced AI where language and law intersect. Gabe’s core thesis lands hard, “the models are the product.” Rather than narrow tools for single tasks, Harvey opted for a broad assistant approach. Lawyers live in text and email, so dialog becomes the control surface, an “AI associate” supporting partners and teams. Early demos showed useful output across many tasks, which reinforced a generalist design, then productized connections into Outlook and Word, plus a no-code Workflow Builder. Go-to-market strategy flipped the usual script. Instead of starting small, Harvey partnered early with Allen & Overy and leaders like David Wakeling. Large firms supplied layered review, which reduced risk from model errors and increased learning velocity. From there the build list grew, security and data privacy, dedicated capacity, links to firm systems, case law, DMS, data rooms, and eDiscovery. A matter workspace sits at the center. Adoption rises with surface area, with daily activity approaching seventy percent where four or more product surfaces see regular use. ROI work now includes analysis of write-offs and specialized workflows co-built with firms and clients, for example Orrick, A&O, and PwC. Talent, training, and experience value come next. Firms worry about job paths, and Gabe does not duck that concern. Models handle complex work, which raises anxiety, yet also shortens learning curves. Harvey collaborates on curricula using past deals, plus partnerships with law schools. Return on experience shows up in recruiting, PwC reports stronger appeal among early-career talent, and quality-of-life gains matter. On litigation use cases, chronology builders require firm expertise and guardrails, with evaluation methods that mirror how senior associates review junior output. Frequent use builds a mental model for where errors tend to appear. Partnerships round out the strategy. Research content from LexisNexis and Wolters Kluwer, work product in iManage and NetDocuments, CLM workflows via Ironclad, with plans for data rooms, eDiscovery, and billing. Vision extends to a complete matter management service, emails, documents, prior work, evaluation, billing links, and strict ethical walls, all organized by client-matter. Global requirements drive multi-region storage and controls, including Australia’s residency rules. The forward look centers on differentiation through customization, firms encode expertise into models, workflows, and agents, then deliver outcomes faster and at software margins. “The value sits in your people,” Gabe says, and firms that convert know-how into systems will lead the pack. Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]   ⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Transcript

    38 min
  4. Wolters Kluwer’s Suzanne Konstance on Trust, Compliance, and the Next Phase of Legal AI

    15 SEPT

    Wolters Kluwer’s Suzanne Konstance on Trust, Compliance, and the Next Phase of Legal AI

    This week we sit down with Suzanne Konstance, Vice-President and General Manager for Legal and Regulatory US at Wolters Kluwer. She outlines how the company supports professionals in highly regulated fields with software and authoritative content. Operations span multiple countries with a deliberately local approach, where teams design solutions for each market. Listeners get a clear view of scope, from enterprise legal management to recent additions such as Brightflag, alongside deep subject expertise. Konstance explains a core focus on regulatory compliance across securities, tax, IP, and employment. The aim is simple, help clients stay out of court. Continuous change drives editorial work, with authors and editors tracking shifts, executive orders, and practical effects. Provenance, version history, and context matter, supported by structured meta tagging which helps search and AI retrieve the right source every time. In a segment on trust, the conversation moves to standards for accuracy and auditability. Clients tell Wolters Kluwer quality outranks speed for research, so the team emphasizes authoritative sources and transparent sourcing. Konstance walks through a recent non-exclusive content license with Harvey for primary law from US and German collections, part of a broader collaboration strategy which also includes VitalLaw AI and new cross-border features. The goal is a reliable workflow where answers cite sources, show currency, and fit real practice. Real user labs reinforce these priorities. At AALL, librarians worked hands-on in a sandbox session with no guided prompts, pushing tools to limits and asking tough questions. One theme dominated, transparency, with live citations and source trails visible during use. Editors remain in the loop to curate likely questions, collect feedback, and refine outputs, while openness about progress helps teams separate market sizzle from dependable results. Looking ahead, Konstance expects roles to shift toward managing agents and setting clear instructions, similar to supervising a room full of interns, with strong expertise still required for oversight. Teams will need to train newcomers on fundamentals, auditing, and controls, so technology serves professionals, not the reverse. She also shares sources she follows, industry conversations with customers, conferences, LinkedIn, X, plus guidance from a long-standing internal Center of Excellence for AI. For more on Wolters Kluwer initiatives, listeners can visit wolterskluwer.com and explore the Legal and Regulatory section along with the AI hub. Also, check out Jerry David DeCicca and his new album, Cardiac Country. Links: Wolters Kluwer Legal & Regulatory U.S. page Wolters Kluwer's AI centerThe press release announcing the content licensing agreement with HarveyVitalLawListen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]   Blue Sky: ⁠⁠@geeklawblog.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@marlgeb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Transcript:

    35 min
  5. KM&I Meets Legal Tech Connect: Two Tracks, One Community with Patrick DiDomenico and Kevin Klein

    8 SEPT

    KM&I Meets Legal Tech Connect: Two Tracks, One Community with Patrick DiDomenico and Kevin Klein

    This week we are joined by Patrick DiDomenico and Kevin Klein, two longtime builders of knowledge programs and legal tech gatherings. They walk through the evolution of KM&I for Legal, now entering year three, and the debut of its co-located counterpart, Legal Tech Connect. Both events run in New York on October 22 and 23, with a single community, two distinct agendas, and one big goal, stronger conversations across buyers, builders, and backers of legal tech. Patrick traces the roots, from the ARK KM era to the launch of KM\&I, then to twisting Kevin’s arm to join as a producer. A larger home opened the door to ambitious programming, Ease Hospitality at 3rd and 40th near Grand Central. Think bright rooms, live plants, strong AV, plenty of seating, and an adjacent tenant lounge with coffee, terrace, and breakout nooks. Lessons from last year show up in smart touches, an overflow room streaming the main stage for those who need to handle calls or email without missing core content, longer breaks for real conversations, and, yes, food worthy of repeat trips. Format matters here. KM&I holds firm on peer-to-peer sessions led by law firm professionals. Providers participate through tight five-minute spotlights between talks, plus optional demo rooms during generous coffee breaks and lunch. Legal Tech Connect flips the lens, product stories on stage, founder journeys, market forces, and regulatory themes. A crossover ticket lets attendees roam freely between both programs. Breakouts return by popular demand, a C-suite roundtable, KM 101 for newcomers, a track for KM attorneys and PSLs, and a managers and directors forum that grew from attendee feedback. Themes thread across both days. ROI from AI and KM tools appears throughout, from data strategy as a differentiator to co-development case studies. Expect a lively take on the rise of the legal engineer, with skills for scaling tools and driving adoption, plus a frank discussion about where these roles sit inside firms. Professor Michele DiStefano opens with client centricity, drawing on her research and book, with every attendee receiving a copy. She then moderates a session at Legal Tech Connect on how legal tech companies sell to law firms, bridging provider goals with buyer needs. Another panel stages the AI conversation among a partner, pricing director, client, and innovation lead, a timely look at value, billing, and collaboration. The bigger story is community. Patrick and Kevin highlight the peer network that forms in hallways and over coffee, mentors found by chance, and ideas that travel home in workable form. Legal Tech Connect brings investors and founders into the mix, which raises the quality of dialogue on funding, product focus, and adoption. Looking ahead, they predict fewer conferences, higher quality bars, and a shift toward substance over appearance. Listeners who want more details, including registration, should visit kmniforlegal.com and legaltechconnect.com. The two events sit side by side in October, and the goal is simple, leave with practical ideas, new contacts, and a clearer view of where legal innovation heads next.   Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]   Blue Sky: ⁠⁠@geeklawblog.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@marlgeb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Transcript:

    54 min
  6. Pit Crews, Seven C’s, and AI: Mirat Dave and Danish Butt from Swiftwater & Co.

    2 SEPT

    Pit Crews, Seven C’s, and AI: Mirat Dave and Danish Butt from Swiftwater & Co.

    This week we are joined by Mirat Dave and Danish Butt of Swiftwater & Co. as they step into the studio to make a simple claim, investigations and legal operations should serve the business, not slow the business. Mirat traces a path across law, technology, and global risk, then explains why a team blending strategy with implementation drew him to Swiftwater. Danish shares a wry origin story from early e-discovery days and outlines Swiftwater’s north star, the seven C’s, connecting, caring, collaboration, creating, curiosity, courage, and confidence. The tone stays pragmatic, no hype, and a few laughs land along the way. Global scope often triggers the “Germany is different” objection. Mirat acknowledges regional nuances, then reframes the discussion, most of the process is common across borders. The move that matters is standardization plus smart technology, including AI, to shift from linear headcount answers to scalable capacity. The payoff is speed, consistency, and lower risk. The team urges leaders to act like business owners, align processes to growth, margin, assets, and purpose, and resist the reflex to hire without redesigning the work. Budget hurdles come next. Leaders struggle to win funds for process change or platforms, while headcount requests sail through. The fix is storytelling backed by math, present a structured plan, expected savings, and a clear ROI in the language a CFO or GC uses daily. Danish widens the lens on metrics, many teams still track counts and cycle times, while value measures like revenue protected or reputation preserved sit at the bottom of the list. The guidance is to flip that order, tie decisions to value, and approach AI as a set of pointed use cases with measurable outcomes, not a monolith. Legal ops gets a moment in the spotlight as the quiet power. Danish reminds listeners that service functions exist to help the organization win, recognition matters, yet trust erodes when tools take center stage over results. Mirat presses the enablement mindset with a memorable image, legal, risk, and investigations are the pit crew, the business is the driver. Faster pits win races. He shares examples, a government contractor lifted renewal success by turning compliance visibility into proactive reminders and playbooks. In investigations, trend analysis by region, level, and timing surfaces fixes that reduce incoming allegations, lighten workloads, and raise quality. The crystal ball stays practical. Danish advises teams to treat AI as a working style backed by a two-year plan, prepare data, pick targets, and avoid both freeze and frenzy. Mirat expects investigation platforms to evolve from reporting systems into work systems, triage, plan creation, interview guidance, and repeatable playbooks that lift speed and consistency. Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]   Blue Sky: ⁠⁠@geeklawblog.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@marlgeb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Transcript:

    51 min
  7. The Cytator Strikes Back: Kara Peterson & Rich DiBona On Descrybe’s Fresh Take on Legal Research

    25 AUG

    The Cytator Strikes Back: Kara Peterson & Rich DiBona On Descrybe’s Fresh Take on Legal Research

    This week, we welcome back Kara Peterson and Rich DiBona of Descrybe to talk about the company’s rapid growth and its expanding role in legal research. Since their last appearance, Descrybe has not only built out new tools but also entered academia by joining the curriculum of more than 350 universities around the world. Kara reflects on her earlier career in legal education and how this new partnership feels like coming full circle. Together, she and Rich share how Descrybe is positioning itself to fill the gap left by other providers while keeping affordability and accessibility at the core of their mission. A major highlight of the discussion is Descrybe’s unique approach to legal citators. Unlike traditional tools that often provide a blunt “treatment” of a case, Descrybe’s citator allows issue-level analysis and even introduces a “backwards citator.” This means researchers can see not only how later courts interpreted a case but also how the judges who wrote the opinion cited and treated earlier authorities. Rich explains the technical challenges involved in training their system on 30 million citations, while Kara describes how these innovations give researchers new storytelling and analytical power when building arguments. The conversation also dives into the Legal Research Toolkit, Descrybe’s paid tier that offers a collection of tools designed for professionals who need more advanced case law analysis. While the company continues to provide free access to its core research platform, the toolkit adds features such as issue explorers and advanced citator functions. Kara emphasizes the company’s deliberately simple pricing model, which prioritizes trust and accessibility. At just $10 a month for non-commercial use and $20 for commercial users, the service is priced more like everyday software than the traditional high-cost legal research platforms. The discussion moves into broader industry trends, including the wave of acquisitions by major players like Thomson Reuters and Clio. Kara and Rich note that while consolidation is reshaping the market, it also leaves space for new entrants to innovate. With data becoming the most valuable commodity in legal tech, Descrybe is building curated and clean datasets across statutes, regulations, state constitutions, and even attorney general opinions. Both guests highlight the importance of accuracy, data hygiene, and minimizing hallucinations, explaining how their closed-system approach helps ensure that results remain grounded in actual legal documents rather than speculative AI outputs. Finally, the episode touches on ethics, recognition, and the future. Descrybe recently won the Anthem Award for Ethical AI, a nod to its safeguards against hallucinations and commitment to transparent data practices. At ILTACon, the team found themselves impressing not only potential clients but also leaders from larger companies who were curious about how such a lean startup was able to achieve so much. Looking ahead, Kara predicts the pace of change in legal technology will only accelerate, challenging law firms to keep up, while Rich warns of the commoditization of AI capabilities and stresses the importance of staying ahead of the curve. Together, they bring both humor and insight, reminding listeners that the legal research market is shifting quickly and that affordability, accuracy, and ethics will shape its next chapter. Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]   Blue Sky: ⁠⁠@geeklawblog.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@marlgeb⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    40 min
  8. Pablo Arredondo and Joel Hron on Reasoning Models, Deep Research, and the Future of Legal AI

    18 AUG

    Pablo Arredondo and Joel Hron on Reasoning Models, Deep Research, and the Future of Legal AI

    In this episode of The Geek in Review, we welcome back Pablo Arredondo, VP of CoCounsel at Thomson Reuters, along with Joel Hron, the company’s CTO. The conversation centers on the recent release of ChatGPT-5 and the rise of “reasoning models” that go beyond traditional language models’ limitations. Pablo reflects on his years of tracking neural net progress in the legal field, from escaping “keyword prison” to the current ability of AI to handle complex, multi-step legal reasoning. He describes scenarios where entire litigation records could be processed to map out strategies for summary judgment motions, calling it a transformative step toward what he sees as “celestial legal products.” Joel brings an engineering perspective, comparing the legal sector’s AI trajectory to the rapid advancements in AI developer tools. He notes that these tools have historically amplified the skills of top performers rather than leveling the playing field. Applied to law, he believes AI will free lawyers from rote work and allow them to focus on higher-value decisions and strategy. The discussion shifts to Deep Research, Thomson Reuters’ latest enhancement for CoCounsel, which leverages reasoning models in combination with domain-specific tools like KeyCite to follow “breadcrumb trails” through case law with greater accuracy and transparency. The trio explores the growing importance of transparency and verification in AI-driven research. Joel explains how Deep Research provides real-time visibility into an AI’s reasoning path, highlights potentially hallucinated citations, and integrates verification tools to cross-check references against authoritative databases. Pablo adds historical and philosophical perspective, likening hallucinations to a tiger “going tiger,” stressing that while the risk cannot be eliminated, the technology already catches a significant number of human errors. Both agree that AI tools must be accompanied by human oversight and well-designed workflows to build trust in their output. Looking to the future, Joel predicts that the adoption of AI agents will reshape organizational talent strategies, elevating the importance of those who excel at complex decision-making. Pablo proposes “ambient AI” as the next frontier—intelligent systems that unobtrusively monitor legal work, flagging potential issues instantly, much like a spellchecker. Both caution that certain legal tasks, especially in judicial opinion drafting, warrant careful consideration before fully integrating AI. The episode closes with practical insights on staying current, from following AI researchers on social platforms to reading technical blogs and academic papers, underscoring the need for informed engagement in this rapidly evolving space. Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]   Blue Sky: ⁠⁠@geeklawblog.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@marlgeb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Academic Papers:Weekly research for trends.scholar.google.com,ssrn.com,arxiv.orgFrançois Chollet: Balanced AI insights. x.com/fcholletfchollet.comJason Wei (OpenAI): Reinforcement learning updates. x.com/jason_d_weopenai.com/blogGeoffrey Hinton: AI research insights.x.com/geoffreyhintonRichard Sutton: Reinforcement learning and philosophical takes.incompleteideas.netReinforcement Learning: An Introduction (Book):http://incompleteideas.net/book/RLbook2020.pdfSeminal work by Turing Award winner.University of Alberta Lab: https://rlai-lab.github.ioCurrent research on scalable AI methods.Blue Sky: ⁠⁠@geeklawblog.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@marlgeb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Transcript

    57 min
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About

Welcome to The Geek in Review, where podcast hosts, Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert discuss innovation and creativity in legal profession.

Information

  • Creator
    Greg Lambert & Marlene Gebauer
  • Years Active
    2018 - 2025
  • Episodes
    322
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Greg Lambert & Marlene Gebauer
  • Show Website
    The Geek In Review

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