In this episode, I’m joined by Kara Fox, an award-winning investigative reporter at CNN International, and Elizabeth Alberts, senior staff writer at Mongabay’s Ocean Desk and Pulitzer Center fellow, who together co-published a major investigation: * CNN article: China’s Growing Influence in the Pacific Is 5,000 Meters Deep * Mongabay article: China’s Deep-Sea Mining Fleet May Also Track US Submarines * Pulitzer Center page: China’s Growing Influence in the Pacific Is 5,000 Meters Deep Their team tracked eight Chinese state-owned research vessels over five years and found their deep sea reserch ships spent only around 6% of their time in China’s actual assigned deep sea mining exploration zones. The rest of the time, they were logging extensive routes through some of the most strategically sensitive waters in the world — near US submarine corridors off Guam, through other nations’ exclusive economic zones, and in proximity to undersea cables. Using marine traffic data, open-source verification, Chinese-language sources, and analysis from maritime intelligence firm Starboard, the investigation makes a careful but compelling case that China’s deep sea mining program appears to serve a “dual use” function: legitimate mineral research on the surface, systematic military-grade seafloor mapping underneath.Kara and Elizabeth walk through their methodology — how they narrowed 40+ vessels down to 8, how they validated findings with defense analysts and civil society experts, and why their language was deliberately couched in “experts say.” They discuss how China’s explicit civilian-military fusion policy makes its position distinct from other maritime powers, even as the US and others also use oceanographic data for strategic ends. Elizabeth makes sure the environmental argument doesn’t get lost: these are ancient, fragile ecosystems that could be permanently altered, and the growing security narrative risks drowning out those concerns. And both journalists hint at what comes next — keeping an eye on the same vessels now that they’re identified, and turning attention toward the US’s own emerging role in this space. Follow Kara Fox * CNN Profile: cnn.com/profiles/kara-fox * LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kara-danielle-fox * Bluesky: @karadaniellefox.bsky.social Follow Elizabeth Alberts * Personal site: elizabethclairealberts.com * Mongabay author page: news.mongabay.com/by/elizabeth-claire-alberts * LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/elizabeth-alberts-700000118 * Bluesky: @elizabethalberts.bsky.social Chapters * 00:00:20 – Introductions * 00:01:28 – What the Investigation Found * 00:03:11 – Understanding Dual Use * 00:05:42 – How the Investigation Started * 00:07:21 – The Methodology * 00:10:11 – How Kara and Elizabeth Met * 00:11:00 – Is China Exceptional, or Is Everyone Doing This? * 00:13:25 – Taiwan, the South China Sea, and What the Experts Said * 00:17:15 – The Environmental Argument * 00:19:20 – Where Does This Reporting Go Next? * 00:22:08 – Deep Sea Mining Watch Tool + Closing Tools Referenced * Deep Sea Mining Watch: deepseaminingwatch.msi.ucsb.edu (UCSB Benioff Ocean Science Laboratory + Global Fishing Watch) * MarineTraffic: marinetraffic.com * Starboard Maritime Intelligence: starboard.xyz (New Zealand-based maritime data analysis company) Prior Research Referenced * CSIS — “Surveying the Seas: China’s Dual-Use Research Operations in the Indian Ocean” (Jan 2024): features.csis.org/hiddenreach/china-indian-ocean-research-vessels * Darshana Baruah (IISS): Indo-Pacific defense and strategy expert quoted in the investigation — Carnegie Endowment profile This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com
