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Season 1, Episode 4

‘I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct'

Mark Driscoll’s vision of manhood indelibly shaped Mars Hill culture. Drawing from his own difficult childhood story, Mark created an ideal for those searching for meaning and direction. Men responded enthusiastically. From “dad talks” about issues about sex, career and family to “holy anger” over a feminized church culture, he invited men into a stirring narrative where manning up meant passionately loving God and their families. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper digs deep into the mythic origin story that shaped Mark Driscoll’s ministry to men. He reveals Mark as far more than just an agent of chaos but a man deeply concerned for the health and spirituality of other men, intent on pastoring them toward flourishing. And as Driscoll’s particular brand of masculinity grew toxic, Cosper asks the poignant question, “Why do you stay when things get bad?” How do you reckon with the movement of the Spirit in your midst when your community begins to shatter? “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: "Dynamite" by Sandra McCracken Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Season 1, Episode 8

Bonus Episode: I Kissed Christianity Goodbye

A Bonus Episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Love it or hate it, if you grew up in a youth group after 1997, you probably had to reckon with Joshua Harris’s I Kissed Dating Goodbye, his treatise on dating and courtship. The book sold millions and made him, in Collin Hansen’s terms, an “evangelical boy wonder.”At 29 years old he became the lead pastor of a Maryland megachurch and a rising star in Sovereign Grace Ministries. But when that movement was torn apart by controversy, conflict, and accusations of a systemic cover-up of child abuse, he found himself reeling, unsure of his calling and convictions. He left ministry in 2015, and in 2019, announced that he no longer identified as a Christian. In this bonus episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, we’ll explore Josh’s story as a contemporary of Mark Driscoll, someone who was his polar opposite in temperament, and who’s struggles in ministry led to a divergent outcome. We’ll talk about faith, doubt, and celebrity, and discuss how Christians might think about their own doubts and deconstruction, recognizing them as a normal part of the Christian life. Subscriptions to CT are one of the best ways to support this kind of journalism. If you want to help us continue doing this kind of work, consider joining today at orderct.com/marshill. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker and Mike Cosper Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Spirit (Keep On)” by Jeremy Casella Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
20 Apr

Trump’s AI Jesus Might Be the Messiah We’ve Been Looking For

Trust Me, I’m a Doctor. ⁠Watch this episode on YouTube⁠. Russell reads his latest article for Christianity Today – read it here. Submit a question for the show (and include a voice memo!) at questions@russellmoore.com Subscribe to the Christianity Today Magazine: Special offer for listeners of The Russell Moore Show: Click here for 25% off a subscription Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
27/08/2025 · Bonus

BONUS: Chris Lane and Matt Martens on the WM3 & Criminal Justice System

Mike Cosper and Rebekah Sebastian sit down with Chris Lane, District Attorney of Floyd County, Indiana, and Matt Martens, a Washington, D.C. defense attorney and author of Reforming Criminal Justice: A Christian Proposal. Together, they unpack the tensions between prosecution and defense, the challenges created by systemic limitations, and the unique factors in the West Memphis 3 case that frustrated and bewildered so many of us. We’re grateful to Chris Lane and Matt Martens for joining us for this illuminating and generous conversation. Please consider liking the DDBS Facebook page to keep up on all show news, livestreams and for conversations with other listeners. Devil and the Deep Blue Sea is a production of Christianity Today Hosted and written by Mike Cosper Produced by Rebekah Sebastian, with production assistance by Dawn Adams Sound Design and Mix Engineer: TJ Hester Sound Design, Animation, and Video: Steve Scheidler Graphic Design: Nim Ben Reuven Music by Dirt Poor Robins Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper are the executive producers of CT Media Podcasts, and Matt Stevens is our senior producer. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review to help more people find the show. Thanks for listening. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Season 1, Episode 7

State of Emergency

Church planting isn’t for the faint of heart. It requires a tenacity few pastors can fully anticipate when they set out. Healthy planting demands not only clarity of mission and relentless work, but practical partnership, wise counsel, and responsive governance to the changing needs that come with growth. From the church’s beginning, Mars Hill leadership committed to all of these -- a vision of Jesus as senior pastor with elders serving with “one vote each.” But somewhere along the line, the vision shifted. Absolutism and a muscular, aggressive form of governance took hold, a campaign led by Mark Driscoll in the name of church growth. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper pulls back the curtain to expose the inner workings of church governance at Mars Hill. Guided by careful research and hundreds of hours of interviews, Cosper plots out a story of church growth corrupted by power. Discover a Mark Driscoll you may never have met -- a young church planter with a vision for Seattle and for the world. Watch what happens when the friction between accountability and speed causes church planting efforts to combust. And see how prioritizing “reaching people for Jesus” can mask spiritual abuse without the proper checks and balances. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: "Return My Heart to My Chest" by Joe Day Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Season 1, Episode 10

Demon Hunting

We are people built for wonder, spiritual creatures looking for spiritual footholds in a culture often devoid of belief in the supernatural. We long for miracles -- the defeat of sin and shame, displays of God’s power transforming our deepest pain. For some who attended Mars Hill, the instinct toward astonishment led them to Mark Driscoll’s charismatic deliverance ministry. In a world where belief is so often hard to come by, Mark claimed to have faith strong enough to move mountains and, literally, to cast out demons. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper asks the piercing question, “Where’s the line between the hand of God and a charismatic leader?” How do we know when our craving for astonishment is being manipulated? When do we accept the claims of someone speaking on God’s behalf? Using the lesser known Mars Hill “demon trials” as a backdrop, Cosper explores the Pentecostal origins of Driscoll’s deliverance ministry, examines the extra biblical rules that governed Mars Hill spiritual warfare, and considers our longing to hear from God and see him move in our midst. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Special thanks to Ben Vandermeer Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Time is a Lion” by Joe Henry Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Season 1, Episode 6

The Brand

Mark Driscoll rose to prominence in the early days of the Internet. Unlike his megapastor predecessors like Robert Schuller and Bill Hybels, Driscoll harnessed technology to build his brand and bypass cultural gatekeepers who might hinder or influence his success. He formed a talented media team that would expand his reach and, inadvertently, reinforce his ego through an online presence. Quickly though, his star rose too far, keeping him at arm’s length from the collaboration and counsel of those who could lend wisdom to his youthful, combustive pastoral ministry. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper breaks down how technology shaped the messaging and marketing of Mark Driscoll and how personal brand can isolate a leader even as it fuels a ministry’s growth. Cosper interviews broadly, from Mars Hill media team members to Collin Hansen of The Gospel Coalition, to investigate how narcissism grows, how theological movements birth new leaders, and why the church’s love affair with charisma and certainty demands we develop a better moral imagination. Rethink your admiration for celebrity pastors. Reevaluate your attraction to religious trends. And, reflect on your own willingness to stand “sola” when church becomes about something other than the Gospel. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Bang” by Moda Spira Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Season 1, Episode 3

"You Read the Bible, Ringo?"

Church planting, even under the best of circumstances, always requires grit and determination. Planting in one of the most progressive cities in the US at the turn of the millennium required even more. But if Mark Driscoll struggled with anything in his ministry, it wasn’t a lack of will. The earliest days of Mars Hill were a whirlwind of activity – launching new campuses, preaching as many as seven times a Sunday, assimilating new people, and developing new ministries all at once. The church quickly proved to be a magnet for spiritual seekers of all kinds – eager Christians looking to build, apathetic Christians needing renewal, and non-Christians hearing the gospel in a new context. On this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, we take you inside that hive of activity to examine up close the ways God was at work. You’ll see Mark Driscoll not only as a preacher and a movement leader, but as a caring pastor. You’ll also see signs of volatility in Mark’s ministry. Tensions in the Young Leaders Network start to build and a pivot in Mark’s own convictions pushes them to their limits. Meanwhile, inside Mars Hill, a throwaway remark at a friendly dinner becomes the catalyst for intense, life-altering conflict. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Did I Tell You the Bullet’s Still There” by Bill Mallonee Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Season 1, Episode 2

Boomers, The Big Sort, and Really, Really Big Churches

In the mid-1950s, Rev. Robert Schuller began preaching in a drive-in movie theater in Southern California. He melded traditions like vestments with a theology of post-war optimism and self-esteem. As his ministry grew, guest preaching in his pulpit became a mark of celebrity achievement. Three decades after his drive-in movie days, Schuller would welcome a young Mark Driscoll to the microphone to speak. To understand the Mars Hill phenomenon, you have to understand how big churches developed in the boomer and Gen X years, how the franchising of churches led to homogenized congregational culture, and how pastors became spokesmen and CEOs. When Mark Driscoll arrived to preach at the Crystal Cathedral, he had already walked a ministry path paved by the likes of Schuller, Bill Hybels, and Rick Warren—leaders who dedicated significant time to demographic research as well as expository study. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper flips the tapestry of the Mars Hill story to expose the weaving of threads beneath. He explores how the identity of a church can become wrapped around one man and why a host of leaders might fall in step to protect him in order to save the institution. Here, you can read an interview with David Di Sabatino, director of Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Crush” by The Violet Burning Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
09/06/2025 · Bonus

BONUS: Livestream Q&A with Mike Cosper, Matthew D. Taylor, and Robert Downen

Season One may be wrapped—but the story isn’t over. In this bonus episode of The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, we bring you a dynamic conversation between two returning guests—Matthew D. Taylor and Robert Downen—who unpack the lingering impact of the Satanic Panic and the modern evangelical movement, including the events of January 6, 2021. You’ll also hear from a DDBS from a listener in Australia, who recounts the chilling true story of a fatal exorcism that took place in rural Australia in 1993. And finally, we take a moment to honor the life and legacy of Duane Rollins, a pivotal voice in exposing abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention. Join the DDBS Facebook group to be part of the group and catch our next livestream. We will be back in one week with an all-new episode. Devil and the Deep Blue Sea is a production of Christianity Today Hosted and written by Mike Cosper Produced by Rebekah Sebastian, with production assistance by Dawn Adams Sound Design and Mix Engineer: TJ Hester Sound Design, Animation, and Video: Steve Scheidler Graphic Design: Nim Ben Reuven Music by Dirt Poor Robins Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper are the executive producers of CT Media Podcasts, and Matt Stevens is our senior producer. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review to help more people find the show. Thanks for listening. Can’t wait for the next episode? Join host Mike Cosper for a livestream every other Monday on the CT YouTube channel or the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea Facebook page. Join our Facebook group for deeper conversations and behind-the-scenes content. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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