In this episode, I talk to Lena Riecke about the complex world of commercial spyware, its implications for privacy, democracy, and international security, and the challenges in regulating this powerful technology. Throughout the episode, Lena touches upon different developments that have taken place in the spyware market. Click on them below to access them directly: - 03:02, Commercial spyware like Pegasus: https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/commercial-spyware/50813/. - 03:31, Reports on spyware as systems that turn phones into 24-hour surveillance devices: https://media.un.org/unifeed/en/asset/d293/d2933358. - 04:09, Ron Diebert's book drawing similarities between nuclear weapons and weapons of mass destruction and spyware: https://www.managementboek.nl/boek/9781912836772/reset-ronald-j-deibert?srsltid=AfmBOoqX5W23yTSV_b6eVTFRzjrF7rdQRgVcKHUcq_PFkyK-yqFyzXEY. - 04:41, The Spanish Pegasus scandal: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jan/23/spanish-court-drops-pegasus-spyware-case-again-israel-spain-nso. - 07:11, Reports on Hacking Team and FinFisher selling products to repressive regimes: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/08/hacking-team-leaks-confirm-what-arab-privacy-advocates-already-knew. - 07:21, Wassenaar Arrangement on certain spyware components: https://www.wassenaar.org/. - 07:50, US-led joint statement in 2023: https://2021-2025.state.gov/joint-statement-on-efforts-to-counter-the-proliferation-and-misuse-of-commercial-spyware/. - 07:55, Pall Mall process launched by France and the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-pall-mall-process-declaration-tackling-proliferation-and-irresponsible-use-of-commercial-cyber-intrusion-capabilities/the-pall-mall-process-tackling-the-proliferation-and-irresponsible-use-of-commercial-cyber-intrusion-capabilities. - 08:09, Pegasus used to target students and members of the pro-democracy movement in Serbia: https://citizenlab.ca/research/pegasus-spyware-infection-of-serbian-activist/. - 10:48, Lena Riecke's study on emerging international governance approaches: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212473X26000635.- 13:58, NSO spending millions on lobbying: https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/nso-group-spends-millions-lobbying/. - 14:02, Intellexa activity declining: https://www.icij.org/investigations/cyprus-confidential/predator-spyware-firm-intellexa-resurgent-after-u-s-sanctions/. - 14:08, Paragon contract with ICE paused on allegations of spyware misuse: https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/usa-government-contract-with-spyware-vendor-paragon-solutions-under-review-due-to-human-rights-concerns/. - 14:25, Trump reinstates Paragon contract: https://www.accessnow.org/paragon-contract-spyware/. - 14:53, Pall Mall Process negotiating guidelines for responsible industry practices: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-seek-views-on-commercial-cyber-intrusion-industry-practices. - 16:15, Sentencing of Intellexa officials recently in Greece: https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1313941/high-ranking-spy-agency-officer-targets-intellexa-execs-over-illegal-wiretapping/. Key moments 00:00 Introduction to the episode and guest 00:23 What is commercial spyware and how does it differ from traditional surveillance? 01:13 The capabilities and intrusiveness of commercial spyware like Pegasus 02:01 Impacts on privacy, human rights, and democratic principles 04:30 Challenges in regulating the spyware market and why states struggle 06:31 The role of democracies and autocracies in spyware proliferation 08:45 Recent regulation efforts and their effectiveness 12:44 Future prospects and what is needed to better regulate spyware 16:46 Conclusion and key takeaways The views and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official position of this podcast, its host, or any affiliated organisations.