The Vermont Conversation with David Goodman

VTDigger

The Vermont Conversation is a VTDigger podcast hosted by award-winning journalist David Goodman. It features in-depth interviews about local and national topics with politicians, activists, artists, changemakers and ordinary citizens. The Vermont Conversation is also an hour-long weekly radio program that can be heard on Wednesdays at 1 p.m. on WDEV/Radio Vermont.

  1. 6d ago

    Bill McKibben sees a nation at a crossroads as he barnstorms battleground states

    Bill McKibben says that “elections should not be this important.” They should not “be the deciding factor between continued stability and whatever kind of creeping fascism we’re playing with,” he writes. “And they certainly shouldn’t be determining questions of planetary survival. But they are.” McKibben, founder of Third Act, which organizes Americans over age 60 “to safeguard our climate and democracy,” has been barnstorming the country in recent weeks to get out the vote and his message. He has traveled through battleground states including Pennsylvania, Kansas, Maine, Montana, Iowa and Texas listening to and speaking with residents about what matters to them and why their vote matters to the world. McKibben says he has encountered a country grappling with economic anxiety, political division and growing concern about the future of democracy. "We tell ourselves that this is the richest country on Earth," he told me. "But man, for the most part in this country, there are a lot of people just barely getting by." McKibben is the author of some 20 books and a regular contributor to The New Yorker, The New York Times, Rolling Stone and his Substack, The Crucial Years. He is the Schumann Distinguished Scholar in Environmental Studies at Middlebury College and has won the Gandhi Peace Prize. His latest book is “Here Comes the Sun: A Last Chance for the Climate and a Fresh Chance for Civilization.” In the political swing districts he has visited, McKibben said, frustration over the rising cost of living was nearly universal. Concerns about gas prices, groceries and housing surfaced repeatedly at doorsteps. Yet he also encountered a deeper sentiment among voters. "People are really hurting, really feeling it," he said, "and finally starting to understand in a way that I haven't quite felt before that it's not their fault that there's some kind of corruption and collusion at the highest levels of our society that are making it extraordinarily difficult for anyone to manage to live out anything that even resembles the American dream." Although the campaign issues varied by region, McKibben said, concerns about President Donald Trump and the direction of the Republican Party were common themes. In northern New York and Michigan, for example, he said voters were troubled by hostility toward Canada, a critical economic and cultural partner for border communities. "Everybody apprehends and everybody understands that it's insane," McKibben said. "Canada is an ally and has been forever. We have no real beef with them in any way." He also expressed concern about the growing influence of wealthy donors in American elections, singling out billionaire Elon Musk's spending as a sign of a democratic system under strain. "When you have one man able to spend 15 or 20% of all the money that's going to get spent in these elections himself, you have the kind of world that is so far from a working democracy that it's hard to imagine," he said. Despite the political turbulence, McKibben, founder of 350.org, remains focused on climate change, the issue that has defined much of his career. Returning to Vermont, he warned that the effects of global warming are already unavoidable and accelerating. "Let's be honest: The ship is not going to be entirely righted," he said. "Climate change is now advanced and advancing much further, even as we speak." Still, he argued that technological advances offer reason for optimism. Falling costs for renewable energy, particularly solar and wind power and battery storage, have created opportunities that did not exist a decade ago. "We now do have the tools: cheap solar, cheap wind, cheap batteries, to finally at least start not stopping global warming — too late for that — but shaving tenths of a degree off how hot the planet eventually gets," he said. McKibben described the challenge ahead as "the biggest rescue mission in human history," noting that even small increases in global temperature affect hundreds of millions of people worldwide. At the same time, he said, Americans are increasingly exhausted by the intensity of modern politics. But amid widespread voter frustration, McKibben said he found hope in the volunteers and activists he met across the country, especially older Americans reconnecting with the activism of their youth. Many are "hearkening back to their first act, to the days of the civil rights movement and the peace movement and the first Earth Day," he said. For McKibben, those grassroots efforts remain the country's best path forward. "It is a struggle between democracy and money," he said. "Not at all clear which side is going to win. But we will do what we can, and we will do it in the best possible spirit that we can."

  2. Oct 21

    ‘We can’t solve our problems with the same thinking that created them.’ Amanda Janoo would ‘lead a different way.’

    Who is Amanda Janoo? And how is this political novice polling closely with Vermont Gov. Phil Scott, now running for his sixth term? “The conventional political wisdom would say I shouldn’t have a chance,” Janoo told me. “But I don’t think that these are conventional times.” With two weeks to go before Election Day, we invited Amanda Janoo, the Democratic/Progressive candidate for governor, and Gov. Scott, a Republican, for separate interviews on The Vermont Conversation. Gov. Scott’s campaign declined. Janoo was eager to talk.  Amanda Janoo grew up in South Strafford, and then attended Macalester College in St. Paul, Minnesota, where she earned a degree in political science. She went on to study at Cambridge University in the UK, where she earned a master of philosophy in development economics. For the past six years she has worked as an economics and policy lead for the UK-based Wellbeing Economy Alliance, which advocates for an economy that centers quality of life over economic growth. Janoo’s only electoral experience in Vermont was being elected justice of the peace. But in March, she announced her candidacy for governor, and five months later she won a close primary against Aly Richards, a former aide to Gov. Peter Shumlin and CEO of the childcare advocacy group, Let’s Grow Kids. Janoo’s signature policy is a state-backed program of free universal primary and preventive care. She estimates the program would cost over $300 million that would be paid for by a 2 percent tax on Vermonters with individual incomes over $250,000, and up to 8 percent on incomes over $500,000. Critics have called Janoo’s plans “magical thinking” and cited Shumlin’s attempt to implement single payer health insurance a decade ago that he abandoned when confronted with its high cost. Janoo acknowledged that a full analysis by state fiscal and health officials would be needed. Still, she argued that Vermont must confront the role of insurance and fee-for-service medicine in rising costs. “A profit-oriented healthcare system is a terrible idea,” she said. “We’ve got to move towards universal healthcare.” Janoo would address Vermont’s housing crisis by taxing luxury second homes and private equity–owned housing, which she calls “extractive.” She has also called to ban AI data centers, invest in community schools, and support local food initiatives. Janoo contrasts her approach to crisis leadership with Gov. Scott. She praised him as “a really nice man” who cares about Vermont and supported the state through Covid-19, but said his approach relies on an outdated economic playbook. “We can’t solve our problems with the same thinking that created them,” she said. Scott was widely praised for his leadership during the pandemic. Dr. Anthony Fauci, the country’s leading infectious disease expert, hailed Vermont’s response to Covid-19 as “a model for the country.” With artificial intelligence, climate change, fiscal strain and democratic instability converging, Janoo said Vermont should seek to shape events rather than simply endure them. “If it’s not Vermont, who’s going to do it?” she said. “There are a lot of opportunities for us to not just keep reacting to crises, but actually to proactively lead a different way.” Janoo argued that the foundation for that shift already exists in the state’s libraries, granges, festivals, mutual aid and local initiatives. The role of government, she said, should be to “nurture, uplift and support” ideas already working in Vermont communities.  “This isn’t some utopian mission,” she said. “It’s already happening.”

  3. Oct 14

    Stealing Elections, American Style: Voting rights attorney David Walbert on how the 2026 election could be hijacked — and saved

    Election deniers, egged on by President Donald Trump, are now running elections in numerous locales across the country. The playbook for stealing elections has remained the same for over a century: “control who votes, control how votes are counted, and control who decides when the counting stops.” That’s the argument by veteran voting rights lawyer David Walbert in his new book, “Stealing Elections, American Style.” He recounts stories of voter suppression and stolen elections dating back 150 years. Walbert says these time-tested strategies could be deployed to thwart the will of the people in the 2026 election. He warns that there could be an unprecedented new tactic: If House Speaker Mike Johnson, a Trump loyalist, refuses to seat new members of Congress in January 2027, the country could be plunged into an uncharted constitutional crisis. “One of the lessons that the election deniers learned in 2020 was it's good to control the people that count,” Walbert told me. He quoted an elections official from Louisiana who helped flip the outcome of the 1876 presidential election, which was won – or stolen -- by Rutherford B. Hayes. “They may have us in the vote, but we got them in the count,” said the official. Walbert explained that the current 435 House members’ terms end at noon on January 3, 2027. The House clerk’s list of representatives-elect would determine who is initially seated, potentially affecting control of election contests. “If the Republicans can finagle that to have a majority of one in that first group that is seated, then they've got a big leg up on cheating,” he said. Walbert said he is also “very worried about deployment of people to intimidate voters. The position of ICE on this — they keep waffling on what they're going to do.”  David Walbert has litigated dozens of election cases in his five decades as an attorney in Georgia. He argued a landmark election case in the U.S. Supreme Court and has taught constitutional law and testified before Congress as an expert on voting rights legislation. He holds degrees from Stanford, the University of Michigan, and Case Western Reserve Law School. Walbert said that a key lesson from the Jan. 6 insurrection by Trump supporters is to anticipate and prepare for how to counter every scenario for how the 2026 election could be hijacked.  Walbert said there is one way to pre-empt cheating. “If the Democrats win overwhelmingly in November, I see no danger of this happening.”

  4. Oct 7

    Forester, influencer and author Ethan Tapper on why ‘it's our responsibility to carry hope for each other’

    Ethan Tapper is a forester, philosopher, bestselling author and social media star. The chainsaw-toting, ATV-driving Vermonter has an audience of some 400,000 followers for his folksy and instructive videos on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram and Facebook. His previous book, “How to Love a Forest: The Bittersweet Work of Tending a Changing World,” won the 2025 New England Book Award in nonfiction and was a regional bestseller. The 37-year-old former Chittenden County forester lives in a 175-acre forest in Bolton that he calls Bear Island. It’s a central character in his writing.  When Tapper purchased the forest in 2017, it was “some of the most degraded areas of forest that I'd ever seen,” he said. He began clearing brush, removing trash, planting trees and enabling new growth.  Tapper and I walked through Bear Island in late September as it was erupting in fall color. He told me that he “just sort of gave this forest a chance. And as I find again and again and again, you give it a chance, and life finds a way.”   Tapper has a new book out this week, “The Forest Year: Finding Hope in a World Worth Saving.” In it, he explores the power of staying and paying careful attention to the environment around you. Tapper tells the story of how deepening a relationship with the natural world is a model for how to take care of oneself and others. “I've chosen roots over wings,” he said as we hiked to a clearing with views of the surrounding peaks. Staying close to his forest has “given me the freedom to be here and to invest in this place and really live with the seasons, live with this forest.”  His deepening awareness of his environment has had multiple benefits. “It's also made me a better forest steward and a more curious and interested person.”  Tapper has worked as a professional forester since 2012. He received a bachelor’s degree in forestry and a master’s in natural resources from the University of Vermont. After working as a county forester for the Vermont Department of Forests, Parks and Recreation for eight years, he left to start his own consulting forestry business, Bear Island Forestry, in 2024. In his spare time, he dabbles as a rock star — literally — as the lead singer in a punk rock band called the Bubs.  We stood next to a pond that reflected the brilliant red, yellow and green around us. “The process of being here with Bear Island has been an extremely hope-filled process,” Tapper told me. “Hope is a self-fulfilling prophecy, because when you feel hope and you give other people reason to feel hope, they do stuff. They take action. They make hard choices. They stand up. …  “We live in this world which, despite centuries of degradation (and) exploitation, we're surrounded by all of these species and all of these ecosystems that still work.” He added: “It's our responsibility to carry hope for each other. We hand this mantle of hope to other people and we change the world. And I think we have to.”

  5. Sep 30

    ‘Gradually, then suddenly.’ Bestselling author Richard North Patterson on how American democracy was undermined.

    “Gradually, then suddenly, America reached the precipice of authoritarianism.” That’s how author Richard North Patterson begins his exploration into key turning points in the last quarter century that have altered the course of American history. He breaks it down in his new book, “Tripwires: 15 Twenty-First-Century Events That Undermined American Democracy — and How to Reclaim It.” “The fire hose of stuff around Trump has been so great that we can't keep track of it,” Patterson told me. “If we don't understand how we got here, then we can't figure out how to get out of this place and restore and reinvigorate our democracy.” Starting with the Supreme Court decision Bush v. Gore that awarded George W. Bush the 2000 presidential election, Patterson itemizes the fateful turns. There was the subprime mortgage crisis in 2008; the Citizens United decision by the Supreme Court in 2010 that unleashed unlimited campaign cash; future President Donald Trump’s demand for then-President Barack Obama’s birth certificate in 2011; and Sen. Mitch McConnell's refusal to convict Trump for the Jan. 6 attempted coup by supporters in 2021. The culmination of the events that undermined democracy was Chief Justice John Roberts’ Supreme Court ruling in 2024 that the American president had immunity for his actions, thus creating an unbounded presidency. Patterson is internationally renowned as the author of 23 novels, 16 of which have been New York Times bestsellers, including “Protect and Defend” and “Degree of Guilt.” Patterson is a former trial attorney whose articles have been published in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, London Times and elsewhere. For the last decade, Patterson has devoted his energies to political commentary because, as he wrote in The Atlantic, “Trump rendered fiction redundant.” As a fiction writer, Patterson recognized Trump’s gift for crafting a compelling story. “Trump creates a fantasy world in which we are beset by numerous forces, some real in themselves, some not real at all, like the great attack of communism and socialism he claims that we are suffering from,” he told me. “And then he creates the heroic narrative where Trump and Trump alone can save us from all of this.”  Patterson understands the allure of the story and its inherent danger. “You had a meeting of the man and his megalomaniacal fantasies in a moment of extreme unease in the American polity, where people were willing to turn to someone who promised to be the all-purpose solution to their unease.” “He claimed to make America great again. I would argue he made America hate again,” Patterson continued. “If you look at authoritarians throughout time, they've always found an enemy. And for Trump, they were racial minorities.” Patterson predicted that “2026 and 2028 are really democracy's last good shot at getting itself turned around.” “If we have a JD Vance or somebody else who's going to pick up on Trump's proto fascism, then we are farther down the road to going from democracy to the authoritarianism in Hungary under (Viktor) Orban and beyond, where we simply can't retrieve what we — what we once believed was secure.”

  6. Sep 23

    ‘There was some justice.’ Hisham Awartani on enduring and speaking out for Palestinian lives.

    Hisham Awartani thought he was going to die. That’s what he told a police dispatcher in desperation as he lay on the ground after being shot by Jason Eaton in November 2023. Awartani and two friends, all of whom are of Palestinian descent, were walking down North Prospect Street in Burlington when Eaton, whom they did not know, stepped off his porch and began firing at them without saying anything. All three friends were wounded, but Awartani, who was 20, was the most seriously injured. A Vermont jury delivered a measure of justice this week when it convicted Eaton of three counts of attempted second-degree murder for the unprovoked shooting of the three young men. The weeklong trial included searing testimony from the survivors and the replaying of Awartani’s call to 911. “There was some justice dealt, but obviously it doesn't change what happened,” Awartani told me about the verdict.  Awartani, Kinnan Abdalhamid and Tahseen Aliahmad have been friends since childhood in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. They were classmates at a Quaker high school in Ramallah and were all attending universities in the U.S. They were on Thanksgiving break and were visiting Awartani’s grandmother, who lives in Burlington. The jury delivered its verdict in under two hours and rejected Eaton’s insanity defense, holding him fully responsible for his actions. The verdict offered some closure on a shocking act of violence that drew national and international attention, coming two months into the latest Israel-Hamas war.  Awartani was gravely wounded in the attack. A bullet lodged in his spine, and he is now paralyzed from the chest down. Awartani told me he is grateful for the medical care he received at UVM Medical Center and Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital in Boston, as well as an outpouring of community support in Vermont. But he has had mixed feelings about the extensive attention to his case. “To have access to such great healthcare and then at the same time, just see the large-scale destruction and death that was happening in Palestine … that part was dissonant for me definitely.” “In Palestine, every single person who died, their life is just as rich as mine.”  The death toll from the war in Gaza has topped 73,000 since Hamas forces attacked Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, according to the Gaza Health Ministry. More than 1,200 Israelis were killed that day.  Awartani said there is a connection between what is happening in Palestine and what happened to him. “Palestinian identity has become vilified,” he told me.  “Violence against Palestinians being excused on a mass scale in Palestine … carried over to here, where simply wearing Palestinian clothing and outwardly identifying yourself as Palestinian is enough to be considered a terrorist and therefore getting shot.” The families of the three young men released a statement after the verdict. “After three years of sorrow, loss, and struggle, our families finally feel relief,” they wrote. Although Chittenden County State’s Attorney Sarah George said the evidence did not support a hate crime charge, the families insist that the young men were targeted in an act of hate. They wrote, “We continue to work toward a world where hateful violence against Palestinians is called out for what it is — and stopped.” Awartani is now 23. He graduated with honors from Brown University in May with a degree in archaeology and math. He plans to return to the West Bank for a year and then pursue graduate studies, perhaps in archaeology.  As a Palestinian survivor of violence, Awartani feels a special responsibility. “I've been given a voice, and I would like to use that voice to amplify other people's voices that have been silent or silenced,” he said.  What gives him hope? “Being surrounded by friends and family, both in the United States and in Palestine … helps us endure and be together,” he replied. He is also encouraged by the shift in public opinion toward Palestine and the campus protests in support of Palestinian rights. “It's building political machinery that hopefully … can effect large-scale positive change both in the United States domestically and internationally.”

  7. Sep 16

    Filmmaker Bess O’Brien on connection, resilience and joy after tragedy

    Bess O’Brien is best known for making award-winning documentary films that take deep dives into difficult issues like addiction, hunger and homelessness. With her latest film, she is taking a different approach: She is inviting audiences on a feel-good journey about resilience and joy. “Every Day: Big and Small” is about the unsung ways that Vermonters show up for each other in good times and bad to create change. O’Brien introduces us to a writers group for people in recovery from substance use, a boisterous drag show at the Elks club in Rutland, a group of men talking about domestic violence, a horse farm for people with PTSD, a couple recovering from a recent flood, a military museum run by a 13-year-old boy, and girls who want to go into farming. These are among a series of cinematic vignettes that tell a larger story of how people cross divides and lift each other up. “A lot of times we are told things about how people are acting or feeling that actually aren't true,” O’Brien told me. People “are actually more generous and more open-hearted than we often assume.” The inspiration for O’Brien’s new film was seeing what happened after the floods in 2023 and 2024 that ravaged some Vermont communities. “We all recognize that our neighbors came together to help each other. However, this happens every day, and we don't even know it, and we don't acknowledge it all the time,” she said.  O’Brien’s previous documentary films have raised awareness about vulnerable people and social justice. Her 2013 documentary, “The Hungry Heart,” about the prescription drug crisis in Vermont, sparked a statewide conversation about opioids.  O’Brien’s 2016 documentary, “All of Me,” focused on the lives of people with eating disorders, and in 2018 she directed “Coming Home,” about five people returning to their Vermont communities from prison. Her 2024 film, “Just Getting By,” was about Vermonters struggling with food and housing insecurity. As she does with most of her films, O’Brien is embarking on a statewide tour with “Every Day: Big and Small.” Her goal is to spark a statewide conversation about the issues in the film.  Chronicling recovery and resilience has been a throughline in O’Brien’s work. In 2014 she co-founded Writers for Recovery to help people who are struggling with addiction. She is now expanding what recovery means.  Recovery is “what we do 55 times a day, just as human beings, because we're depressed, or we're bummed, or we're angry at our kid, or we're frustrated, or we can't get our Google to work,” she said.   “It's the old Vermont thing: You get stuck in the mud and somebody comes and pulls you out. That is recovery. That is somebody coming and helping you. So this film is really about all those small little things that human beings do every day that get us through life. Because if we didn't have that, we'd be fricking in big trouble.”

  8. Sep 9

    ‘We are the patriots fighting for democracy.’ AG Charity Clark on suing Trump and winning $92.7M from Meta

    Vermont Attorney General Charity Clark has had a busy summer. Since late June, she has sued the Trump administration an average of twice per week. That brings to 67 the number of lawsuits — as of midday Wednesday — she has filed or joined against President Donald Trump since January 2025. They include lawsuits defending birthright citizenship and challenging cuts to medical research funding, the dismantling of the Department of Education, voting restrictions and tariffs. Clark said her office has prevailed in 92% of the suits, including both final decisions and preliminary injunctions. Many of these decisions are being appealed, but “getting that initial win is hugely helpful in all the work that we are doing battling the unconstitutional and illegal acts of the federal government right now,” Clark told me. In August, the attorney general announced a landmark settlement of $92.7 million with the social media company Meta, which owns Facebook and Instagram, for designing its programs to addict young people and harm their mental health. The settlement resulted from a lawsuit involving 47 other states, the District of Columbia and U.S. territories. Meta agreed to limit the time that teenagers can spend on its platforms and impose age restrictions. “I really think this is the dawn of a new era for social media,” Clark said. Clark, 51, won election as Vermont’s attorney general in 2022, the first woman to do so. She graduated from the University of Vermont, then worked as a policy analyst in the office of Gov. Howard Dean. She later graduated from the Boston College School of Law and worked as an assistant attorney general and later as chief of staff to her predecessor, TJ Donovan. In April, she was named Woman of the Year by the Boston College Women’s Law Coalition. She is currently running for a third term as attorney general. In a recent lawsuit, Clark joined 24 other state attorneys general challenging a new rule by the U.S. Postal Service that would grant it the authority to regulate mail-in voting.  “This is such an egregious attempt to overtake the state's prerogatives with voting and elections. But more importantly, it is so wildly impractical,” said Clark, adding that it would take years to implement. “I can't imagine that the United States Supreme Court is going to say, ‘Yeah, we'll just do this and disenfranchise so many of these voters.’ I mean, it would be pandemonium if they did this.” Clark said that despite the Trump administration’s ongoing attempts to overturn longstanding legal precedents, “I believe in America.”  “We will keep exercising our rights under the Constitution and standing up for our country,” she said. “We are the patriots fighting for democracy and our Constitution, and we're going to keep doing it until this administration is gone. And we're going to keep doing it whatever the next administration is who comes in in 2028.”

4.4
out of 5
37 Ratings

About

The Vermont Conversation is a VTDigger podcast hosted by award-winning journalist David Goodman. It features in-depth interviews about local and national topics with politicians, activists, artists, changemakers and ordinary citizens. The Vermont Conversation is also an hour-long weekly radio program that can be heard on Wednesdays at 1 p.m. on WDEV/Radio Vermont.

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