Industry Relations

Rob Hahn and Greg Robertson

This is Industry Relations, a podcast that is at the intersection of real estate and technology from an insider's perspective. Hosted weekly by Rob Hahn (The Notorious ROB) and Greg Robertson.

  1. 1d ago

    ListHub 2.0?

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg break down Open Real Estate (ORE), a new initiative from eXp, Real, RE/MAX, Keller Williams, and Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices to build a broker-run listing cooperative. They debate whether ORE is a national MLS or a syndication platform, whether a Q1 2027 launch is realistic, and what ORE could mean for MLSs, Compass, and government regulation of the industry. Key Takeaways ORE aims to prevent inventory fragmentation driven by Compass's private listing strategy. Greg gives ORE a one-out-of-ten chance of success but thinks MLSs and portals should help anyway. Rob says mandatory submission plus cooperation makes ORE a national MLS, whatever it's called. Greg sees ORE as closer to ListHub 2.0, a data feed that works alongside MLSs. Rob asks why ORE doesn't just buy ListHub from Realtor.com instead of building from scratch. Neither host believes ORE can launch by Q1 2027 with RFPs only now going out. ORE's early principles include submission within one business day and public or participant-only listing options. ORE could become the industry's new rulemaker, giving MLSs cover against Compass. Pricing like a dollar per listing could push smaller MLSs toward consolidation. Greg credits ORE for bringing a solution to the table instead of filing lawsuits. Greg wonders if ORE gives Robert Reffkin a face-saving way out of his fight with MLSs. Rob argues ORE's real goal is removing inventory as a way for brokerages to compete for agents. Rob warns that ORE's consumer-protection rhetoric could invite government regulation of the MLS. In 2004 congressional testimony, industry leaders defended the MLS as a private broker-to-broker cooperative. Links Vendor Alley: Upstream 2.0? Not Quite.  Inman: KW, AGNT, HomeServices of America, Real REMAX fight private listing with new collaboration  BAM (Video) : REAL, eXp, Keller Williams & Berkshire Hathaway Announce Historic Team Up  Notorious POD (Video): Reaction Video - Open Real Estate Are you an MLS Exec going to NAR NXT?  Book a meeting with Greg/Giant Steps  Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  2. Oct 21

    Spinning Compass

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg break down Compass's newly filed lawsuit against CRMLS in the Central District of California. They cover the eyebrow-raising $175 million figure tied to commission settlement costs and why Rob thinks Compass has a strong case that's badly packaged. They also debate MLS "transparency" claims and OneHome, revisit precedent from Cantor v. Multiple Listing Service of Dutchess County and RealComp, and look at what MLSs facing Compass threats, like Unlock MLS and OneKey MLS, should do next. Key Takeaways Compass's suit against CRMLS shifts the main legal action to California. Compass appears to seek recovery of commission settlement costs (Sitzer/Burnett, Gibson) from MLSs. Rob sees strong arguments in the complaint but a weak, overly combative narrative. The complaint doesn't explain why CRMLS's board would adopt rules that bind its own members. Rob argues MLS transparency claims fail because consumers can't join MLSs directly. Greg counters that OneHome gave roughly 12 million consumers CRMLS data access in a year. Rob says an MLS's customer is the agent who pays, not buyers or sellers. Cantor v. MLS of Dutchess County struck down a rule that had little to do with the cooperative: mandatory MLS yard signs. The core question is whether MLSs should regulate how properties are marketed. NAR's 2004 change, dropping the advertising restriction from the 14 points, was followed by DOJ action. Greg questions whether MLSs can negotiate in good faith with Compass, given its shifting demands. Rob urges MLSs to try to avoid costly litigation before going to "war." Greg notes MLSs feel squeezed between Compass suits and potential seller lawsuits. The 1983 FTC Butters Report shows the MLS is anti-competitive by design but delivers major consumer benefits. Rob predicts private and office-exclusive listings will grow, driven by buyer demand in a K-shaped economy. Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  3. Oct 14

    Blame the Dentists

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg look at the latest NAR existing home sales report. Sales rose 1.5% to a 3.99 million SAAR, inventory stands at 4.8 months, and the median price is $417,500. Investor purchases jumped from 15% to 20% month over month. Rob argues that housing affordability is becoming a political flashpoint ahead of the midterms. He warns that candidates may find it easy to blame real estate investors, and the realtors who work with them, for the housing crisis. Greg pushes back on how much political power anyone could gain by taking on NAR, the country's second-largest lobby. The two then debate whether the industry has any real message for young, working-class Americans who believe they'll never own a home. Key Takeaways Existing home sales hit 3.99M SAAR in September, the fourth straight year near 4 million. Investor share of purchases rose from 15% to 20% in one month; first-time buyers edged up to 31%. Mortgage rates are set by the bond market, not the Fed, and 10-year yields are near 5.3%. Rising bond market concerns are pushing wealthier individuals toward real assets like housing. Most real estate investors are individuals, such as dentists and retirees, not institutions like BlackRock. Investors and first-time buyers often compete for the same starter homes. Rob sees housing as an open lane for a "housing candidate" willing to blame investors and realtors. NAR ranks second in national lobbying, behind only the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and ahead of pharma. Policy ideas discussed include limiting Fannie and Freddie financing for investment properties and restricting the mortgage interest deduction to owner-occupied homes. Down payment assistance risks raising prices by the same amount. Greg is optimistic that the AI infrastructure build-out will drive long-term prosperity. Rob argues Gen Z has lost the reasonable expectation that hard work leads to homeownership. Open question to listeners: what message should the industry have for the younger generation? Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  4. Oct 7

    Treble Damages and Cupcakes

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg recap CMLS, from Errol Samuelson's understated appearance to Robert Reffkin's scripted, heavily criticized onstage interview with Jessica Edgerton. Rob notes that his engagement with Compass ended in September, though confidentiality restrictions still apply. The conversation then turns to the escalating Compass–CRMLS conflict and a heated debate over what the MLS should be in 2026 and beyond. Rob says MLSs need to define their identity and stop simply reacting to events. Greg says the answer will vary by market. They also clash over whether data-licensing revenue shared with brokers has any real connection to cooperation. Key Takeaways CMLS drew close to 1,000 attendees, but the lack of Wi-Fi in the main hall was a major unforced error. Errol Samuelson argued that listing exposure is a form of MLS contribution and urged attendees not to listen to the loudest voice. The recent ruling against Zillow went largely unmentioned during Samuelson's session. Robert Reffkin read from prepared notes, repeatedly warned of lawsuits and treble damages, and opened with a 1971 MLS book as a prop. The crowd's reaction to Reffkin seemed to unite MLS leaders rather than divide them. CRMLS has published the Compass demand letter and its response, and has filed a declaratory judgment lawsuit. Greg sees the fines issue as a red herring, with only eight fines totaling about $3,000. Greg expects MLSs to split regionally, with some leaning platform, some staying cooperative, and some landing on hybrids. Rob argues every MLS needs to answer two questions: who are we today, and who do we want to be tomorrow? Rob says removing compensation should have triggered a fundamental rethink of what cooperation means. 1% of brokerages contribute 64% of MLS listings, a fact Rob says the industry has avoided confronting. Greg points out that CLAW's more broker-friendly rules haven't caused a mass exodus from CRMLS. MLSs are experimenting with rewards programs and new data-licensing models that pay brokers for their contributions. Rob says data-sales revenue doesn't require cooperation and that tying the two together is arbitrary. Greg says tying payouts to cooperation rules is a legitimate incentive, the "cupcake" for following the rules. Rob calls cooperation a structural reality of a two-sided industry that doesn't need incentives. Both agree this kind of debate needs to happen inside MLS boardrooms. Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  5. Sep 30

    Whose MLS Is It, Anyway?

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Greg calls in from CMLS in Fort Lauderdale, while Rob stays home enjoying some "joy of missing out." Greg recaps the Click-Through Conference for MLS marketing professionals, where his keynote turned into a vendor's candid pitch for how MLSs could structure and monetize vendor marketing. That leads Rob to ask why local monopolies need marketing departments at all, and the conversation widens into MLS competition, Sam DeBord's Real Estate News piece on data monetization, and the question Rob says sits under all of it: who actually owns the MLS, and what does that ownership mean? Key Takeaways The Click-Through Conference brings MLS marketing and communications teams together, with sessions on plain-English messaging and AI in marketing. Vendors are often barred from contacting MLS members, then blamed when adoption is low. Greg proposes bronze, silver, and gold vendor marketing packages so vendors know exactly what they're paying for. Structured vendor programs could turn MLS marketing into a real revenue line. Rob questions why MLSs, as local monopolies, need marketing rather than member communications. Rob and Greg debate whether MLSs truly compete, citing Metrolist's expansion as an example. Sam DeBord argues that MLSs should use financial incentives to encourage complete data and should license data to AI companies. Rob asks what happens to the money if data monetization succeeds, given nonprofit association ownership. MLS shares held by associations rarely pay dividends or transfer, which limits their economic value. Ownership debates tend to center on board seats instead of enterprise value. Greg suggests alternatives like negotiated member benefits with Zillow or Homes.com. Cooperative models, such as REI, are one path, but members would then own the MLS, not associations. Rob warns MLS leaders not to assume they have unlimited time to address ownership. Choosing a tech platform isn't bold strategy; tackling ownership is.   Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  6. Sep 23

    Walking Dead

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview The court has denied Zillow's motion for a preliminary injunction against MRED, and the case now moves to arbitration. Rob stands by calling the ruling a "fatality" for Zillow's Listing Access Standards. Greg argues the fight is far from over and points to PLS v. NAR, which came back after a string of losses. The hosts also debate whether other MLSs will follow MRED's lead, whether a national MLS can handle compliance, and what Zillow does next. Key Takeaways The court denied Zillow's preliminary injunction against MRED and sent the dispute to arbitration. Rob calls the ruling a "fatality" for Zillow's Listing Access Standards; Greg says nothing Zillow argued was proven wrong. Greg cites PLS v. NAR (2020–2025) as proof that "dead" cases can come back. Rob credits the DOJ's intervention for PLS's appellate win and notes that the DOJ also shaped this judge's opinion. The judge treated MRED's policy update as a clarification, not a new rule. Rob expects MLSs that paused similar rules during the lawsuit to move forward now. The court called MRED going national pro-competitive, which Rob says introduces real MLS competition. Greg questions how Compass listings were rushed onto MRED and whether that data is kept accurate. The hosts debate whether a national MLS can do compliance when most enforcement relies on local member reports. Greg points to Metrolist as evidence that MLSs already compete; Rob says every MLS is still a local monopoly. Rob's thought experiment: if Zillow required direct listing entry, would 96% of listings still show up there? Greg estimates only about 50% would, and says Zillow will work within the system rather than blow it up. Zillow is already testing a new angle, with previews shared with Realtor.com and RealScout. Rob points out that Zillow itself called private listings an existential threat, citing Howard Hanna and Real as brokerages following Compass. The Hagens Berman buyer-side inquiry gets a brief debate, including whether sellers are the more likely plaintiffs. Greg will debate the MLS's pro-consumer case on stage at CMLS. Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  7. Sep 16

    Roubini Redux

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg riff on Greg's stalled car search, then dig into real estate and macro conditions — new industry efforts to boost housing supply, mounting federal debt and mortgage rate pressure, AI's threat to service jobs, and whether multi-generational living could ease the affordability crisis. Key Takeaways Realtor.com and 13 housing advocacy groups launched LetAmericaBuild.org to educate on zoning, permitting, and housing supply. Realtor.com data puts the housing supply gap at roughly 4 million homes. Rob argues the federal government's interest payments now exceed defense spending, constraining any real rate hikes. Mortgage rates are tied to the 10-year Treasury yield, which is rising as foreign buyers (China, Gulf states) pull back from US bonds. Saudi Arabia's oil export disruptions mean less Gulf money flowing into US mortgage-backed securities. Rob's view: neither political party will touch Social Security or Medicare cuts, so structural fiscal problems go unresolved regardless of who's in power. AI poses a bigger threat to US service-based jobs (coding, law, banking, podcasting) than to manufacturing-heavy economies like China's. Rob's affordability math: either home prices need to fall ~40% or real incomes need to roughly double. Landlords currently own about 40% of US housing stock, which both hosts flag as a long-term political issue. Discussion of multi-generational living models (Korean, Japanese generational mortgages) as a possible adaptation, though both agree the US housing stock isn't built for it. Rob traces the "traditional" American homeownership path: condo → starter home → forever home → passed down or sold in retirement — calling it increasingly out of reach. Both hosts close by noting real estate and podcasting are themselves AI-exposed industries and stress the need for resilience. Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  8. Sep 9

    Who's Marketplace?

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg dig into the Northwest MLS settlement with Compass, unpacking what it signals for the industry beyond the specific deal terms. The core debate: has Northwest MLS quietly redefined "open marketplace" to mean the MLS itself (its paying subscribers) rather than the open internet — and if so, is that a genuine philosophical shift or just a pragmatic compromise to get lawyers off the clock? They dive into the "First Look" compromise, real numbers on how many listings actually go private, why Zillow treats this as an existential threat, and whether a bigger "grand compromise" between brokers and MLSs is still coming. Key Takeaways - Northwest MLS and Compass reached a settlement/compromise rather than continuing costly litigation. - Rob's central argument: NWMLS is effectively redefining "open marketplace" as its member agents/brokers, not the general public internet. - The compromise centers on "First Look" — a window where members can see listings before they hit the public MLS/internet. - Greg pushes back that this is more pragmatic business compromise than a deep philosophical shift. - Cited numbers: roughly 96% of listings still go straight to the MLS; of the remaining ~4% held privately, only about 10% actually sell. - Rob argues Zillow's aggressive opposition to private listings stems from fear the practice could scale dramatically due to competitive incentives for brokers. - Windermere reportedly has the most exclusive listings in Northwest MLS despite historically opposing this practice publicly. - New Northwest MLS rule requires listing agents get equal visibility to buyer agents on portals and websites. - Consumer advocates (Nick Aufenkamp, Wendy Gilch) argue this shift hurts buyers by fragmenting where listings are visible. - Rob floats a "grand compromise" concept: everything goes into the MLS, but brokers get full marketing freedom outside that requirement. - The conversation touches on Glenn Kelman/Redfin's more consumer-mission-driven leadership as a philosophical counterpoint to the "customer = agents" framing. - Both agree litigation risk (state inquiries, potential class actions) remains a live wildcard going forward. Links OpenAI Astra  Direction of Travel In the listing wars, consumers are a proxy for the real customer   Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

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4.7
out of 5
38 Ratings

About

This is Industry Relations, a podcast that is at the intersection of real estate and technology from an insider's perspective. Hosted weekly by Rob Hahn (The Notorious ROB) and Greg Robertson.

Information

  • Creator
    Rob Hahn and Greg Robertson
  • Years Active
    2017 - 2026
  • Episodes
    100
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Rob Hahn & Greg Robertson
  • Show Website
    Industry Relations

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