Betwixt Podcast: Grounded Conversations & Embodied practices for Spiritual Wayfinding

Deb Gregory

Betwixt is a waypoint for spiritual wayfinders exploring the liminal passages that shape our lives. In each episode, Deb Gregory invites you into a grounded conversation and an embodied practice to help you navigate the spiritual life with intention and wisdom. If you’re seeking a steadier, more spacious way to walk with God, Betwixt is a companion for the journey.

  1. Sep 8

    46 Part 2: Scaffold of Hope with Becky Eldredge: Practices for Dark Seasons  

    What holds us when life becomes heavy? In this secondconversation, Deb Gregory and spiritual director Becky Eldredge explore how hope is sustained in the seasons when our interior movements go quiet. Ignatian spirituality teaches that discernment is never a solo practice — it is communal, embodied, and grounded in the ways God meets us through others. Becky reflects on the reality of dark seasons: times when prayer feels thin, energy disappears, and the nervous system contracts under the weight of grief, fear, or exhaustion. In these moments, hope isn’t something we generate. It’s something we lean on. Something that is held for us. Something that comes through the people, practices, and postures that keep us tethered to God when we cannot feel that tether ourselves. This is the heart of the scaffold of hope — thesteadying structures that support us until interior movements return. Becky names the simple, whole‑person practices that help rebuild hope: breath prayer when words are unavailable, stepping outside to engage the senses, tracing even the smallest graces through the examen, and allowing trusted companions to accompany us without rushing us toward resolution. Hope becomes a shared practice, not an individual achievement. It shows up in the body as steadiness, breath, presence, and the quiet assurance that we are not alone. And in Ignatian discernment, hope is one of the most reliable markers of God’s movement — even, and especially, in thedark. Themes Communal Hope — how others hold hope when we cannotScaffolding Practices — embodied rituals that steadyus in dark seasonsIgnatian Accompaniment — discernment as a shared,relational practiceDesolation & Consolation — navigating spiritualdarkness with honestyHope as Gift — a theological virtue, not optimismWhole‑Person Spirituality — tending the nervoussystem, emotions, and body in prayerPractices Breath prayer in seasons without wordsSensory grounding outdoorsNaming small graces in difficult daysThe examen as a way of tracing God’s presence in darknessAllowing community to hold hope on our behalfHand‑over‑heart prayer for God’s nearnessFavorite Lines “Sometimes hope is held for us until we can hold itagain.” “We need a scaffold of hope in the seasons when our interiormovements go quiet.” Resources Becky’s Books: Encounter Grace: Moments of Hope, Joy, and Peace The Inner Chapel: Embracing the Promises of God Busy Lives & Restless Souls: How Prayer Can Help YouFind the Missing Peace in Your LifeDeb’s Book: Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off Follow Becky Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beldredge98Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beldredge98/My website:  http://beckyeldredge.com Ignatian Ministries- the non-profit Becky founded:  https://ignatianministries.org/Where to Find Deb Flourish Spiritual DirectionSubstackIG or Facebook  Media Used in this Episode: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT“In Peaceful Defiance” — licensed via Soundstripe Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

    46 Part 2: Scaffold of Hope with Becky Eldredge: Practices for Dark Seasons  
  2. Sep 1

    45 Part 1: Embodied Discernment with Becky Eldredge: Noticing What Moves Us

    What does discernment have to do with the body? In this conversation, Deb Gregory and spiritual director Becky Eldredge explore the affective and holistic wisdom of Ignatian spirituality — a tradition where the whole person prays, listens, and discerns. Becky describes how interior movements show up not just in our thoughts but in our emotions, our breath, our posture, and the subtle shifts in energy that surface when we face a decision. Ignatian discernment invites us to pay attention to these movements as real spiritual data: signs of what draws us toward God and what pulls us away. Favorite lines: We throw hope around like confetti. Hope has a name, and his name is Jesus. Following this thread, Deb and Becky take a deep look at hope as a theological virtue — a God‑given orientation of the heart and a trusted fruit of the Spirit in discernment. Hope isn’t optimism or positivity; it’s the interior movement that buoys us, widens our perspective, and helps us recognize where God is drawing us forward. Themes Embodied Discernment — how the body participates in prayer and decision‑makingInterior Movements — noticing emotional, cognitive, and somatic shiftsIgnatian Spirituality — whole‑person wisdom for everyday lifeCura Personalis — care for the whole person in spiritual directionConsolation & Desolation — affective markers that guide discernmentHope as a Theological Virtue — more than optimism; a God‑given orientation of the heartAffective Discernment — reading the signals of breath,posture, and energySpiritual Accompaniment — the ministry of noticing what moves withinResources Becky’sBooks: Encounter Grace: Moments of Hope, Joy, and Peace The Inner Chapel: Embracing the Promises of God Busy Lives & Restless Souls: How Prayer Can Help You Find the Missing Peace in Your Life Deb’s Book: Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off Follow Becky Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beldredge98Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beldredge98/My website:  http://beckyeldredge.com Ignatian Ministries:  https://ignatianministries.org/ Follow Deb Flourish Spiritual DirectionSubstackIG or Facebook  Media Used in this Episode: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNATMusic by Viacheslav Starostin from PixabayClosing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

    45 Part 1: Embodied Discernment with Becky Eldredge: Noticing What Moves Us
  3. Aug 25

    44 The Interior Wilderness: Noel Forlini Burt on Encountering God in the Desert

    Why I wanted to talk with Noel Noel is both an Old Testament scholar and a spiritualdirector — two threads that run through my own story. My early academic path was aimed toward becoming an Old Testament scholar, but my vocation ultimately led me into spiritual direction. Even so, my love for the Hebrew Bible has never faded. Talking with Noel gave me the chance to explore both the scholarly depth and the spiritual formation that emerge in the wilderness stories of Scripture. Key Themes we Discussed (and Wrestled With) naming our interior landscapeencountering God in desolation and disorientationbiblical wilderness as a formative spacevaried terrains of wilderness in the Old Testamentthe Suscipe: An Ignatian prayer of trustWhat stuck with me Wilderness is not a single metaphor. It’s a range ofterrains — and each one can become a place of encounter. A question for reflection Where do you notice wilderness in your own interiorlandscape, and what stands out as you name it? The Suscipe Prayer of St Ignatius Take, Lord, and receive all of my independence, Memory, understanding, and my entire will —all of my resources and possessions. Everything is yours. I entrust all of it to your care. Only inflame my soul with your love and grace. That is enough for me. (Translated by Deborah Gregory, Spiritual Wayfinding,pg 75) About Noel’s bookGod in the Desert: A Spiritual Theology of Wilderness in the Old Testament⁠ traces how God meets people in barren, exposed, ordisorienting places — and how those ancient encounters can help us understand the landscapes within our own lives. Where to find Dr. Noel Forlini Burt Substack: noelforliniburt.substack.comInstagram: @noelforliniburt  Where to Find Deb Flourish Spiritual DirectionSubstackIG or Facebook  Thanks to InterVarsity Press for generously offering 25% offSpiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom. Use Code IVPOD25 at https://www.ivpress.com/spiritual-wayfinding Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNATClosing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

    44 The Interior Wilderness: Noel Forlini Burt on Encountering God in the Desert
  4. Aug 18

    43 Brian Zahnd on Pilgrimage, Transformation, and Coming to See the Unseen Realm

    I’ll admit it—I was a bit nervous to talk about heaven with Brian Zahnd. Perhaps like you, I carry baggage from childhood images of gold streets and clouds, and I wasn’t sure where this conversation would go. But his stories of walking long long-distance pilgrimages like the Camino de Santiago opened such a grounded way of talking about heaven, embodiment, and the unseen world we move through every day. I really loved this conversation! What we get into Brian has walked multiple pilgrimages—40 miles, 160 miles,and the full 500-mile Camino de Santiago twice. Those long walks have shaped his sense of identity and the stripping-away that happens when life is reduced to walking, eating, sleeping, and repeat. Brain shares the adventures of crossing the Pyrenees, staying in the monastery at Roncesvalles, and watching people who don’t consider themselves religious still feel drawn into the shared rituals of the Camino. He noted that at some point, his perspective shifted from finally getting a vacation to an overhaul of vocation. “Eventually it doesn’t feel like a holiday. It feels like, Iam a pilgrim now. My life has been reduced to blessed simplicity.” We also explore his new book Unseen Existences: Of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine Mystery in All Things and why so many of us inherited narrow or sentimental ideas of heaven. Brian talksabout heaven in a way that isn’t wispy and frail, but grounded and gritty. Why this conversation matters If you’ve ever felt allergic to heaven-talk, this episode might be a relief. Brian challenges the modern assumption that only what we can measure is real, without dismissing science or reason. Instead, he invites us to recover an older Christian intuition: that the visible and invisible co-exist, and that our own lived experience—our senses, our movement, our curiosity—can help us glimpse the mysterious existence of heaven all around us. What made me laugh Two pastors walked together for days before admitting theywere pastors—only on the Camino! Tune in if you enjoy conversations about: the Camino de Santiago embodied spiritualityheaven without sentimentalitythe unseen world in Christian (mystic) imaginationpilgrimage and spiritual transformationWhere to Find Brian Website: https://brianzahnd.comSubstack: https://brianzahnd.substack.comTwitter / X: https://twitter.com/BrianZahndInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brianzahndFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrianZahndAuthor YouTube (Word of Life Church): https://www.youtube.com/c/WordofLifeChurchWhere to Find Deb Flourish Spiritual DirectionSubstackIG or FacebookThanks to InterVarsity Press for generously offering 25% offSpiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom. Use Code IVPOD25at https://www.ivpress.com/spiritual-wayfinding Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNATClosing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠ Related Episodes: 32 Fr. Brendan McManus, SJ: How Pilgrimage Heals and Helps Us Find Our Way Buen Camino!

    43 Brian Zahnd on Pilgrimage, Transformation, and Coming to See the Unseen Realm
  5. Aug 11

    42 Forest Bathing: Cultivating Connection with Nature and God with Kim Van Natta

    Forest Bathing: Cultivating Connection with Nature andGod with Kim Van Natta Discover how forest bathing—an intentional immersion innature—can deepen your spiritual life and boost your physical health. In this episode, Kim Van Natta, a spiritual director and certified forest therapy guide, shares insights on engaging all your senses outdoors to experience divine connection. Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom Main topics: The essence of forest bathing and its physical healthbenefits, including immune boosting through phytocidesThe spiritual significance of engaging with creation as ameans of connecting with GodPractical guidance on how to participate in a forest bathingwalk and incorporate it into your spiritual practiceThe biblical basis for nature as a pathway to divineencounter, supported by scripture referencesThe emergence of Wild Church as a community of outdoorbelievers rediscovering sacred space in creationIn this episode: How trees release healing chemicals that support immune function and reduce stressThe history and development of shinrin yoku in Japan and its global adoptionThe relationship between embodiment, senses, and spiritual awarenessHow to create your own forest bathing experience, regardless of location or seasonThe role of silence, shared presence, and sensoryinvitations in deepening spiritual mindfulnessTimestamps: 00:00 - Introduction to forest bathing and itshealth benefits02:00 - The physical and spiritual 'rest' offered by engaging with nature03:30 - Exploring the biblical and scientific foundations of nature as divinegift05:00 - The historical origins of forest bathing in Japan and its global spread07:00 - Practical steps for doing a forest bathing walk and sensory engagement10:00 - How biblical scriptures illuminate our connection to creation and God13:30 - The role of Wild Church and outdoor communities in spiritual renewal16:00 - The scientific evidence of phytocides' effects on immune health18:00 - Embodiment and sensory awareness as pathways to divine presence20:00 - How to start your own practice of forest bathing today42:00 - Guided natural mindfulness practice: Experience the Pleasure ofPresence Resources & Links: Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom Wild Church Network Church of the Wild by Victoria Louris Rewilding with Mary DeYoung Association of Nature and Forest Therapy Connect with Kim Van Natta: Website Connect with Deb Gregory: ·       Flourish Contemplative Center ·       Substack ·       Instagram / Facebook May this episode inspire you to slow down, open your senses,and experience God's presence in the sacred space of creation.

    42 Forest Bathing: Cultivating Connection with Nature and God with Kim Van Natta
  6. Aug 4

    41 Rich Johnson on Contemplation That Fuels Action, Howard Thurman, and Communal Discernment

    From the lived complexity of leading a multiracial, justice‑oriented church, Rich Johnson reflects on how the contemplative posture of slowing down becomes a radical act of spiritual formation.Pastor and spiritual director Rich Johnson joins Deb Gregory for a conversation at the intersection of contemplation and action — a place often misunderstood, oversimplified, or treated as two separate paths. Drawing on Howard Thurman, African American approaches to spiritual formation, pietistic roots, and his experience leading a multiracial, justice‑oriented congregation, Rich explores how slowing down, listening deeply, and grounding ourselves in the divine voice becomes the wellspring for courageous, sustained action. Rich shares stories from his journey — from Morehouse College to planting Sanctuary Church — and invites us into a rhythm of discernment that harmonizes active love and deep reflection. Rich Johnson is the founding pastor of Sanctuary Columbus Church, a multiracial, justice‑oriented, contemplative Christian community. He is a spiritual director and the Director of the Weborg Center for Spiritual Direction at North Park Seminary. He is a lover of coffee, long walks, and a student of Howard Thurman’s wisdom on the inner life and social action. Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom KEY THEMES: Contemplation as Paying Attention Rich defines contemplation as noticing where God is at work— in memory, in the body, in habits, in resistance, and in desire. It’s not passive. It’s an active inward movement that naturally leads outward into relationship and action. Action Emerging from the Inner Voice Rich shares how he began to burn out when he was “listeningto every voice around me instead of the voice within.” Returning to the inner voice of God reshaped his leadership, his discernment, and his community’s justice work.  Belovedness as Identity and Communion Drawing on Henri Nouwen’s Life of the Beloved, Rich reflects on belovedness as the core of human identity — not just for the self, but for the community. Belovedness becomes the ground for how we show up, act, and extend ourselves to others. Pietism: Head and Heart Together Rich describes his Swedish‑Lutheran pietistic roots, where faith is not performative or rigid but relational and lived. Two guiding questions shape this tradition: Where is it written? How goes your walk? Communal Discernment Rich shares how Sanctuary Church practices discernmenttogether — beginning with silence, naming interior movements, listening for the Spirit, and asking: What does the Lord require of us? This practice guides their justice work, including recent engagement with prison reform. The Missing Practice of Lament Rich names what many feel but rarely articulate: lament is missing from most spiritual‑discipline handbooks. In his community, lament is encouraged — shouting, grieving, protesting, naming what hurts. Lament becomes a way of gathering in grief and attuning to God’s heart. Coffee as Contemplative Practice Rich shares his morning ritual: a sensory grounding practice using the 5‑4‑3‑2‑1 method while holding a warm cup of coffee. It’s a way of awakening the senses to God before the day begins to pull them apart. Resources & Links: Howard Thurman: Essential Writings Henry Nouwen: Life of the Beloved Howard Thurman House — Visiting the sacred space Gethsemane Monastery in Kentucky, exploring silence, community, and contemplative practice Where to Find Rich Johnson: Rich Johnson on Instagram SanctuaryChurch Columbus NorthernSeminary - Weborg Center

    41 Rich Johnson on Contemplation That Fuels Action, Howard Thurman, and Communal Discernment
  7. Jul 28

    40 Jill Geoffrion on the Easter Labyrinth: From Medieval Joy to Trauma Healing Through Embodied Prayer

    Drawing from decades of work at Chartres Cathedral and in trauma‑touched communities worldwide, Jill Geoffrion reveals how the labyrinth’s winding path becomes a living conduit of joy and healing. In this episode, Deb Gregory speaks with theologian, photographer, and global labyrinth facilitator Dr. Jill Geoffrion, whose scholarship and ministry at Chartres Cathedral have shaped contemporary understanding of the labyrinth as a path of prayer. Jill’s work through Faith, Hope, and Love Global Ministries extends far beyond France, bringing labyrinth installations and healing practices to communities experiencing violence, displacement, and collective trauma. The conversation explores the sensory wisdom of embodied practice, the medieval Easter traditions of Chartres, the historical development of labyrinths in Christian contexts, and the surprising ways labyrinths create safe spaces for healing in places of suffering. Historical Background Labyrinths appear in Christian tradition as early as the fourth century, beginning with a repurposed Roman mosaic placed at the doorway of a North African cathedral in 324. Jill notes, “Anything that shows up in a cathedral has been around because it doesn’t get to the cathedral first.” By the ninth century, labyrinths appear in manuscripts; by the twelfth andthirteenth centuries, they are installed on cathedral floors in Italy and France, culminating in the large walkable labyrinth at Chartres Cathedral around 1220. Jill clarifies a common misconception: medieval pilgrims did not use labyrinths as substitutes for traveling to Jerusalem. “The first time we even hear of such an idea was in the eighteenth or nineteenth century,” she explains. Instead, labyrinths served primarily as liturgical tools for the cathedral community. Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom In this episode: Jill's journey from scholarship to global healinginitiatives with labyrinth installationsThe distinction between labyrinths and mazes, and whyturning back on the path matters physically and psychologicallyHow labyrinths serve as containers for community andindividual pilgrimage, especially in regions of traumaThe significance of the Chartres Cathedral labyrinth as acenturies-old testament to prayer, pilgrimage, and liturgical joyPractical tips for approaching a labyrinth intentionally, whether walking physically, tracing patterns, or imagining the pathThe profound connection between physical movement, sensory engagement, and spiritual/emotional healingThe surprising ways labyrinths have facilitated physicalrecovery—like Deb’s experience walking the labyrinth with a broken ankleHow the rhythms of play, spontaneity, and openness transform our experience of sacred practiceEmbracing the mystery: why the spiritual and physical impactof labyrinths remains partly beyond our understanding Resources & Links: Faith Hope and Love Global Ministries — Jill’s nonprofit for healing through labyrinthsJill's article  Revisiting the Chartres Labyrinth: A Journey Through TimeLabyrinth Locator — Discover labyrinths worldwide Lauren Artress and Veriditas — Pioneers of labyrinth revitalization and trainingLabyrinth Patterns and Resources — Free downloadable labyrinth designsBook: "Spiritual Wayfinding" by Deb Gregory —Guide to embodied spiritual practices and labyrinthsResearch on Restorative Play with Matt BloomConnect with Jill Geoffrion: Personal WebsiteLabyrinth prayer: https://labyrinthprayer.com Labyrinth experience around the globe: https://throughjillseyes.wordpress.com Chartres Cathedral resources: https://praywithjillatchartres.com Articles about the Chartres labyrinth: https://jillgeoffrion.com/writings/articles-written-by-the-rev-jill-k-h-geoffrion-ph-d/  Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNATClosing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

    40 Jill Geoffrion on the Easter Labyrinth: From Medieval Joy to Trauma Healing Through Embodied Prayer
  8. Jul 21

    39 Neurodivergent Faith: Interoception & the Body’s Role in Discernment

    Episode Swap with Josh Davis of Neurodivergent Faith Today’s episode is a little different. We’re sharing a curated portion of Josh Davis’s interview with Deb Gregory from the Neurodivergent Faith Podcast. Last week, Josh joined Deb on Betwixt for a conversation about embodied spirituality and sensory wisdom. This week, we continue that collaboration by offering listeners a deeper look into Josh’s work — and into Deb’s own story of neurodivergent spirituality, sensory processing, and interoceptive discernment. Josh and Deb share a lot of common ground: both are spiritual directors, both come from neurodivergent families, and both are passionate about centering ND experiences in conversations about Christian formation. This episode swap gives Betwixt listeners a chance to hear Deb through Josh’s lens — and to explore how neurodivergent ways of sensing and processing open new pathways into prayer, discernment, and connection with God. You’ll hear the opening moments of Neurodivergent Faith to reacquaint you with Josh’s voice, and then we jump ahead to the portion of the interview where the conversation turns toward embodied discernment, sensory processing, and interoception. Stay through the end for a guided interoceptive body scan as our closing meditation. Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off SpiritualWayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom In This Episode Why this Betwixt episode is a curated swap with Neurodivergent Faith Deb’s story of growing up in a neurodivergent family — autism, ADHD, dyslexia How sensory processing differences shaped her daughter’s spiritual experience The challenge of finding worship spaces that support ND nervous systems Why behaviors often signal sensory need rather than defiance The body’s role in discernment —fast thinking, sensory cues, emotional signals The eight sensory systems: taste,touch, smell, sight, hearing, proprioception, vestibular, interoception How interoception helps us notice hunger, temperature, tension, emotion, and internal states Emotions as discernment tools —anger, disgust, joy, grief The “yuck walk” and how disgust can become an invitation to care How ND people can reclaim sensoryand emotional experience as part of their relationship with God Final Meditation: A full guided interoceptive body scan led by Deb Resources Mentioned Neurodivergent Faith Podcast Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom by Deborah Gregory Daniel Kahneman — Thinking: Fast and Slow Connect with Josh Davis: Podcast: Neurodivergent Faith Podcast YouTube: Just Josh Davis (AutisticPastor)   Facebook - Josh Davis Instagram -@autisticpastor Music – Just Josh Davis on Bandcamp Music: Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli Featured Songs by Josh Davis: What If

    39 Neurodivergent Faith: Interoception & the Body’s Role in Discernment

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About

Betwixt is a waypoint for spiritual wayfinders exploring the liminal passages that shape our lives. In each episode, Deb Gregory invites you into a grounded conversation and an embodied practice to help you navigate the spiritual life with intention and wisdom. If you’re seeking a steadier, more spacious way to walk with God, Betwixt is a companion for the journey.

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