What happens when one partner needs emotional connection before sex, while the other experiences sex as one of the primary ways they feel emotionally connected? Too often, couples—and even therapists—get caught trying to decide which need should come first. In this episode, Dr. James Hawkins sits down with Dr. Laurie Watson, coauthor of Brave Love, Great Sex, for a rich conversation about why the emotional and sexual bonds in romantic relationships cannot be separated. Laurie explains how couples can become caught in two interconnected pursue-withdraw cycles: an emotional cycle and a sexual cycle. One partner may pursue emotionally while withdrawing sexually, while the other withdraws emotionally but reaches for connection through sex. Underneath both are familiar attachment questions: Do you want me? Do I matter to you? Will you respond to me? Am I safe needing you? James and Laurie explore how attachment history, childhood experiences with touch, body image, sexual functioning, anxiety, shame, and vulnerability can all shape what happens between partners in the bedroom. They also discuss why sexual withdrawal is not simply a lack of desire and sexual pursuit is not simply wanting more sex—both can be attempts to manage deeply vulnerable relational needs. Link to Brave Love Great Sex Podcast Amazon Link for Brave Love Great Sex Book Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other. In this episode of Push the Leading Edge, Dr. James Hawk and Dr. Ryan Rana explore a powerful clinical question: What if, instead of always trying to get underneath protection, we slowed down and worked with it? Drawing from live sessions with George Faller and their own case work, they unpack how repetitive, honoring validation of protective moves can transform “stuck” couples—especially long-term pairs who have been looping in the same rigid patterns for years. You’ll hear how protection shows up in withdrawers and pursuers, why it’s more than “resistance,” and how treating protection as a pathway rather than a problem can unlock embodied emotion, reshape shame, and open the door for more organic Stage 2 work. Top Ten Learning Points Protection is a doorway, not just a barrier. Protection (withdrawal, criticism, task-focus, etc.) can be a direct entry point into attachment longings and fears, not just something to get past. TEMPO as a multi-door model. TEMPO (Trigger, Emotion, Meaning, Protection) is like a car with four doors; you don’t always have to enter through “E” (emotion)—you can enter through P: protection and still reach the heart. Rounds and rounds of validation change the nervous system. George’s method involves extended, layered validation of protection (20–30 minutes), not just a quick nod. This repeated honoring of the positive intent behind protection visibly reduces pressure and invites live emotion to surface naturally. Protection is emotional dysregulation, not just “defensiveness.” Protective moves are embodied dysregulation driven by fear, shame, and threat—not a character flaw. People often hate the very protections they defend and feel deeply ashamed about them. Protection serves at least four functions at once. It protects self, protects partner, protects the relationship system, and preserves a sense of basic safety (e.g., “If I don’t do this, we might lose the family/us”). Long-term couples are running habits, not conscious choices. After 7+ years of distress, partners often don’t even know they’re doing their protection move—it’s become automatic, like breathing. A single powerful enactment doesn’t automatically undo years of patterned protection. Deep validation reshapes the observing partner’s view. When one partner’s protection is validated in detail, the other partner gets a front-row, re-framed view of behavior they previously only experienced as hurtful. This can shift, “You’re just being critical/checked out” into, “Oh, this is your way of trying to protect us and not give up on us.” You must deal with what’s on top before you earn what’s underneath. If therapists say, “I want to get underneath that,” but never really work with the protection, they often get blocked. You “earn the right” to deeper vulnerability by regulating and honoring what’s on top (the protection) first. This approach especially helps withdrawers, pursuers, and concrete thinkers. Withdrawers: feel seen in their performance, tasking, and “keeping the peace” superpowers, instead of constantly being pushed to “do more emotion.” Pursuers: finally have their energy named as a protective, committed force rather than “too much” or “critical.” Clients wary of emotion / neurodivergent / highly concrete: protection-focused work feels practical and tangible, less abstract than pure emotion work. Protection work can set up a more organic Tango. George often spends a long time in Tango 1–2 space around protection—tracking, reflecting, and deepening. Once protection is truly validated and regulated, emotion tends to emerge organically, making Tango 2–3–4 smoother and more authentic, rather than forced. For EFT therapists, the episode offers a direct challenge: we already know how to track cycles, explore meaning, evoke emotion, and create new conversations—now we need the courage to bring those same skills into the sexual relationship. This is a conversation about helping couples develop the courage to open their hearts emotionally and sexually, creating the possibility for both brave love and great sex. A Core Line for the Episode Great sex and brave love are not two separate destinations. Emotional and sexual vulnerability can strengthen one another when partners learn to reach, respond, and remain present in both systems. Top Ten Takeaways 1. Emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy are reciprocal systems. Treating sex and emotional attachment as separate domains can cause therapists to miss how strongly each influences the other. Couples have multiple pathways toward experiencing security and connection. 2. Couples can become trapped in a “you go first” standoff. One partner may essentially say, “Connect with me emotionally and then I can open sexually,” while the other says, “Connect with me sexually and then I can feel emotionally close.” Both partners wait for the other to make the first vulnerable move. 3. Couples may have two different pursue-withdraw cycles operating simultaneously. A person can be an emotional pursuer and sexual withdrawer—or an emotional withdrawer and sexual pursuer. The emotional and sexual positions do not necessarily line up. 4. Sexual behavior carries attachment meaning. A sexual reach can communicate, “Do you desire me? Will you choose me? Am I important to you?” A missed response can therefore register in the nervous system as much more than simply not having sex. 5. Attachment history matters, but it does not explain everything about sexuality. Attachment strategies influence how people approach relationships and sex, but hormones, trauma, early sexual experiences, family messages, body experiences, and other developmental factors also shape the sexual system. 6. Sexual withdrawal deserves curiosity rather than judgment. Pulling away from sex may protect someone from profound vulnerability. A history of insufficient or unsafe touch can make needing physical closeness feel frightening rather than comforting. 7. Sexual pursuit is often about more than sex. The sexual pursuer may be reaching for reassurance, desirability, closeness, affirmation, or embodied connection. Anxiety about whether the partner will respond can intensify pursuit, just as it does in an emotional cycle. 8. EFT therapists already possess many of the skills needed to explore sexuality. Questions such as “What happened inside when your partner responded that way?” “What did that mean about you?” and “What did you need in that moment?” translate naturally from emotional-cycle work into sexual-cycle work. 9. Slow the sexual experience down frame by frame. Therapists can explore not only thoughts and emotions but physiological responses: arousal, loss of arousal, erection, orgasm, touch, tension, and bodily shutdown. Then help partners communicate what is happening rather than silently interpreting one another. 10. Therapist discomfort should not leave couples alone with one of their most vulnerable struggles. Therapists may worry that talking explicitly about sex is intrusive, inappropriate, or voyeuristic. Laurie’s challenge is to remain gentle, respectful, and specific rather than avoiding the subject altogether. Couples often need help developing language for experiences they have been unable to discuss anywhere else. We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples. Stay connected with us: Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in
