Playing With Fire

Joli Hamilton, PhD and Ken Hamilton
  • 4.9 (84)
  • Relationships
  • Updated Weekly

Welcome to Playing With Fire, the podcast for people who are ready to custom-build their love. We’re talking about non-monogamy–however you design it–as an individuation opportunity. Want to leave the default and make your life spectacularly you? You’re in the right place.

  1. 3d ago

    262 My Partner Isn’t as Excited as I Am: Asymmetry in the Opening Process

    Opening a relationship rarely involves both people feeling the exact same level of excitement at all times. And that asymmetry in energy, enthusiasm, readiness, and initiative can bring up a whole host of confusing questions and challenging dynamics. We see this all the time. One person has a deeper inspiration, and the other person is receptive, but not as enthusiastic or motivated. This is totally normal. But our mono-normative culture reinforces narratives about who has the “good deal” and who has the “bad deal,” who’s responsible for all the hard stuff, and who gets to just enjoy the benefits. But here's the thing: trying to force symmetry into an inherently asymmetric situation doesn't work. Nature itself runs on asymmetry. The real work is learning to engage with the asymmetry rather than fighting against it – and that means both people taking radical responsibility for their own journey, their own consent, and their own growth. In this episode, we talk about: — Why asymmetric energy between partners is completely normal when opening a relationship — The difference between endogenous inspiration versus receiving the idea from a partner — How the stories we tell ourselves about this asymmetry can either bring us together or drive us apart — Why the person with initiating energy doesn't automatically become "good at" non-monogamy — The trap of trying to restore symmetry and why it's unnatural (and ultimately impossible) — How asymmetry can flip over time – and why the initiating partner often struggles when their "stable foundation" starts exploring too — The critical importance of engaged, enthusiastic, informed consent – even when you're not the inspired partner — Why enthusiasm in consent doesn't mean you have to like everything, and what it means instead — How taking ownership of your own learning process (rather than relying on your partner to teach you everything) is essential — The reality that paradigm shifts take 3-5 years of active participation – and then the rest of your life — Why making space for difference doesn't mean the relationship is failing — How to find your own motivation for this journey, even if you weren't the one who brought the idea forward — The beautiful possibility of being fully present and authentic even if the relationship ends or transforms completely JOIN The Year Of Opening® community for a full year of learning & support Learn the 5 secrets to open your relationship the smart way Are you ready to open your relationship happily? Find out at www.JoliQuiz.com Get the answers you want to create the open relationship of your dreams! Sign up for a Playing With Fire Community Call here Music: Dance of Felt by ⁠Blue Dot Sessions

    262 My Partner Isn’t as Excited as I Am: Asymmetry in the Opening Process

  2. Oct 17

    261 Can You Love More Than One Person and Still Feel Secure? Love, Grief, and Growth with Lunarosa Peralta

    When your partner falls in love with someone else, becomes a parent, or moves through profound grief during a breakup, you witness a transformation that has nothing to do with you. Except, as a witness, it also has the potential to affect you, and your relationships, profoundly. This week, we're joined by Lunarosa Peralta, a Xhicana therapist and poet specializing in consensual non-monogamy, kink, and sex worker affirming care. She brings both professional expertise and deeply personal experience to this conversation, having recently navigated some of the most destabilizing changes imaginable: watching one partner move through engagement, marriage, relocation, and becoming a father, while simultaneously supporting another partner through a painful breakup. What Lunarosa shares is raw, tender, and incredibly valuable. She talks about the grief that lives at the heart of all meaningful change, the work of re-creating your belonging when everything shifts, and why trying to understand your way out of pain might actually be protecting you from what you really need to feel. If you've ever struggled with being the witness to your partner's transformation—or if you're trying to figure out how to hold yourself when no one else can catch you—this conversation will meet you exactly where you are. In this episode, we talk about: — Why opening a relationship might mean you want to "break something" (and what that really means about growth and transformation) — The reality that change will happen in your relationships – and that you can't ask to change your relationship without expecting it to actually change — Why grief is an essential part of navigating non-monogamy, not a sign that something's wrong — The profound experience of watching your partner become deeply alive through someone else — What it means to be a witness versus being witnessed, and why you need more than one person to see you — The existential questions that arise when your partner changes — How to re-create your belonging in a relationship after major shifts, rather than trying to preserve what was — The difference between trying to understand your way through pain versus actually allowing yourself to grieve — Why self-witnessing and learning to hold yourself alone is essential muscle-building work — How childhood wounds and past experiences with change can make present transitions feel impossible — The realization that non-monogamy isn't just about sex and fun—it's about becoming more of who you are — Practical tools like grief dinners and community witnessing for processing change — Why "doing non-monogamy well" doesn't mean it won't hurt or be hard Resources mentioned in this episode: — Find Luna Rosa Peralta on Instagram @therapywithlunarosa — Visit Luna's website withlunarosa.com for information about workshops and community events JOIN The Year Of Opening® community for a full year of learning & support Learn the 5 secrets to open your relationship the smart way Are you ready to open your relationship happily? Find out at www.JoliQuiz.com Get the answers you want to create the open relationship of your dreams! Sign up for a Playing With Fire Community Call here Music: Dance of Felt by ⁠Blue Dot Sessions

    261 Can You Love More Than One Person and Still Feel Secure? Love, Grief, and Growth with Lunarosa Peralta

  3. Oct 10

    260 ‘I feel seen… but not by you’ – Metamours, Jealousy, and Differentiation

    Have you ever wondered what your partner looks like through someone else's eyes? It's a question that can bring up a swirl of emotions—curiosity, insecurity, excitement, maybe even panic. But what if that willingness to wonder is actually one of the keys to navigating jealousy and building deeper, more differentiated relationships? This episode dives into the beautiful, messy reality of watching our partners be seen in new ways. We explore how the presence of others (metamours, new partners, even close friends) can expose aspects of our partners we've never encountered, and how that can feel both threatening and liberating. We talk about the ego wobbles, the fear of being left behind, and the grief that comes with accepting that we can never fully know or experience everything about our partners. And we discuss why non-monogamy, for all its challenges, can be powerful medicine for breaking the illusion that we ever could. In this episode, we talk about: — The terror and confusion that can arise when a partner says they feel seen by someone who isn't you — How being seen freshly by someone new can help us discover new facets of ourselves — The fear that a new aspect of your partner won't fit in your relationship, and what to do with that fear — Our own experiences with this phenomenon in the context of kink — Why we can't (and shouldn't try to) replicate every version of our partners in our own relationships with them — The grief and poignancy of accepting that you'll never experience everything with your partner, and why that's actually essential to differentiation — How the illusion of monogamy can keep us from dealing with the reality that our partners are truly other — The tendency to displace discomfort onto metamours instead of sitting with the reality that our partner feels unfamiliar — Why increasing our distress tolerance around our partner's otherness is essential to individuation — How non-monogamy strips away the mirage that we could ever fully know or contain another person — The gift (even when it doesn't feel like one) of being reminded that our partners were never meant to stay inside the bubble of our imagination JOIN The Year Of Opening® community for a full year of learning & support Learn the 5 secrets to open your relationship the smart way Are you ready to open your relationship happily? Find out at www.JoliQuiz.com Get the answers you want to create the open relationship of your dreams! Sign up for a Playing With Fire Community Call here Music: Dance of Felt by ⁠Blue Dot Sessions

    260 ‘I feel seen… but not by you’ – Metamours, Jealousy, and Differentiation

  4. Oct 3

    259 Getting Unstuck: How a Frozen Imagination Blocks the Relationship You Want

    What if the thing that’s really stopping you from changing your relationships isn’t a lack of motivation or willpower, but a frozen imagination? We all hold internal representations of ourselves, our partners, and our relationships in our minds. This isn’t a bad thing. But when those images remain static, we stop seeing how things actually are and starting interacting with their outdated versions. This prevents us, our partners, and our relationships from accessing aliveness, creative potential, and the opportunity to grow into something new. But we can thaw out these frozen images, and when we do, we open ourselves up to possibilities that we couldn’t have imagined before. In this episode, we talk about: — Why our imaginations of ourselves, our partners, and our relationships gets frozen in the first place — How frozen images can be both protective and limiting at the same time — The difference between intentionally freezing aspects of a relationship temporarily (like during a crisis) versus getting stuck in outdated versions — Why agreements are actually a byproduct of the ongoing work of updating our expectations and images — How emotional heat can help thaw out frozen images — The role of projections in keeping our images of others frozen — Why thawing out doesn't mean the frozen image was "wrong," and what it means instead — How frozen images from childhood and family systems continue to impact our adult relationships — The power of reintroduction rituals and accountability in updating relational images — Why asking "who in me is frozen?" can be more helpful than asking if your whole self-image is frozen — How trauma narratives can become frozen images that need to be inhabited fully before they can be thawed — The ongoing nature of this work and why it's both challenging and delightful Resources mentioned in this episode: — Episode 250 Relationship Re-Imagination: The Framework — Episode 204 Liminality: Your Key to Relationship Paradigm Shifting JOIN The Year Of Opening® community for a full year of learning & support Learn the 5 secrets to open your relationship the smart way Are you ready to open your relationship happily? Find out at www.JoliQuiz.com Get the answers you want to create the open relationship of your dreams! Sign up for a Playing With Fire Community Call here Music: Dance of Felt by ⁠Blue Dot Sessions

    259 Getting Unstuck: How a Frozen Imagination Blocks the Relationship You Want

  5. Sep 26

    258 Patterns of Harm Need Patterns of Repair: Rethinking Closure

    Ever feel like you're having the same conversation about the same hurt over and over again? Yeah, we’ve been there. And the surprising thing is… that's not necessarily a problem. We just did an episode on conflict and how it can actually deepen intimacy (wild, right?). But during that conversation, something came up that deserves its own deep dive: closure. What even is closure? When does repair actually end? And why do some of us need to revisit the same hurts multiple times while others just want to "move on already"? This is where things get tricky. There's often frustration, blame, even shame around the fact that certain wounds keep resurfacing. One partner might feel superior because they can "just get over things," while the other feels broken for needing more time and repetition. But here's what we've learned through our own relationship and through working with hundreds of people: patterns of harm require patterns of repair. And understanding the difference between a loop and a spiral? That changes everything. In this episode, we talk about: — What repair actually means (spoiler: it's way more than just saying "I'm sorry") — The difference between closure and pretending something never happened — Why closure doesn't mean you forget or stop feeling hurt by what happened — How to tell if you're stuck in a loop versus moving through a spiral of growth — Why defensiveness will slam your spiral right back into a circle every single time — The role of changed behavior, accountability, and taking responsibility in true repair — Why some relationships stay stuck — How forgiveness language can sometimes be used to rush past real repair (and why we're cautious about that word) — The reality that you'll always remember significant harms—and that's actually okay — Why bringing up past hurts isn't manipulation—it's often an invitation to deeper knowing — How resentment forms when we pretend to "just get over" things without actually processing them Resources mentioned in this episode: — Our Repair Skills playlist — The Apology and Accountability Ladder JOIN The Year Of Opening® community for a full year of learning & support Learn the 5 secrets to open your relationship the smart way Are you ready to open your relationship happily? Find out at www.JoliQuiz.com Get the answers you want to create the open relationship of your dreams! Sign up for a Playing With Fire Community Call here Music: Dance of Felt by ⁠Blue Dot Sessions

    258 Patterns of Harm Need Patterns of Repair: Rethinking Closure

  6. Sep 19

    257 Conflict as Growth: Deepening Intimacy through Disagreement

    When we see conflict as a red flag, we pave the way for dishonest ‘peace,’ people pleasing (where no one is actually pleased at all), and emotional walls that try to protect us but end up leaving us isolated and disconnected. The truth is that conflict is not inherently a sign that something is going wrong in the relationship. In fact, generative conflict is the pathway to deeper connection and growth. This conversation gets real about the extremes of dysfunctional conflict (cheap peace and violent disagreement), what generative conflict actually looks like, and how it can bring people together instead of pulling them apart. In this episode, we talk about: — Why conflict isn't a sign that something's wrong with your relationship (and what it actually signals instead) — The spectrum of conflict: from dishonest harmony to violent disharmony, and how to find the generative middle ground — Ken's transformation from conflict-avoidant to someone who can sit in the discomfort with curiosity and patience — How gender dynamics and emotional labor show up in who does the work of naming and navigating conflict — The power of asking "what else is it?" instead of dismissing someone's feelings or getting defensive — Why making space for your partner's inner child (and historical wounds) can be relationship-changing — The difference between taking something personally and taking it on—and how ego strength plays a role — Practical skills that have reduced our conflict duration by 90% (seriously) — Why repair can and should start during the conflict, not just after — How conflict skills become even more essential when you're opening your relationship — The importance of curiosity, vulnerability, and dropping defensiveness when things get heated — Why hypervigilance from childhood can make us defend against there being "more" to a conflict Resources mentioned in this episode: — Our Repair Skills Playlist — Our Imago Dialogue Playlist JOIN The Year Of Opening® community for a full year of learning & support Learn the 5 secrets to open your relationship the smart way Are you ready to open your relationship happily? Find out at www.JoliQuiz.com Get the answers you want to create the open relationship of your dreams! Sign up for a Playing With Fire Community Call here Music: Dance of Felt by ⁠Blue Dot Sessions

    257 Conflict as Growth: Deepening Intimacy through Disagreement

  7. Sep 12

    256 Leaving High-Demand Religion and Exploring Non-Monogamy with Natasha Helfer

    Leaving high-demand religion isn't just about changing your Sunday morning schedule. It’s about deconstructing a belief system that touches everything in your life. And when you start pulling on this thread, you might find yourself questioning monogamous norms too. These processes can open you up to a wealth of opportunities, but they can also bring a whole lot of uncertainty online. That’s why we're thrilled to bring you this conversation with Natasha Helfer, an AASECT-certified sex therapist supervisor and licensed marriage and family therapist with 30 years of experience working at the intersection of conservative religious upbringing, sexuality, and internalized sexual shame. Natasha was excommunicated from the Mormon church for her advocacy work, so alongside her professional expertise, she brings a wealth of lived experience to this topic. If you've ever struggled with the aftermath of purity culture, if you're deconstructing from high-demand religion while exploring non-monogamy, or if you're supporting someone through this journey, this episode offers validation, insight, and practical frameworks for understanding what's really happening during deconstruction and reconstruction. In this episode, we talk about: — What makes a religion "high-demand" and why sexual behavior monitoring is such a central feature — The difference between being pushed out (excommunication) versus choosing to leave, and why both can be traumatic — Why deconstruction is not a linear process with a clear endpoint — How compulsory monogamy in mainstream culture mirrors compulsory polygamy in fundamentalist communities (and why that realization is so important) — The challenge of doing adolescent developmental work in midlife while simultaneously navigating midlife transitions — Why people deconstructing from one thing (like religion) often start questioning everything else (like monogamy), and why that's actually a natural part of the process — The grief of leaving certainty behind, both religious certainty and the certainty of traditional relationship structures — Practical therapeutic approaches — Why reconstruction work is just as important as deconstruction, and how to build a new identity and value system — The reality that old messaging and shame will resurface periodically—and why accepting that actually helps you move forward — How privilege (race, gender, sexual orientation) dramatically impacts the severity of religious trauma Resources mentioned in this episode: — Find Natasha at natashahelfer.com — Natasha’s group practice, Symmetry Counseling — Natasha's seven-week educational group for people exploring ethical non-monogamy JOIN The Year Of Opening® community for a full year of learning & support Learn the 5 secrets to open your relationship the smart way Are you ready to open your relationship happily? Find out at www.JoliQuiz.com Get the answers you want to create the open relationship of your dreams! Sign up for a Playing With Fire Community Call here Music: Dance of Felt by ⁠Blue Dot Sessions

    256 Leaving High-Demand Religion and Exploring Non-Monogamy with Natasha Helfer

  8. Sep 5

    255 When should we start making agreements in NEW relationships?

    Here’s a question we get a lot – at what point in a new relationship should you start making agreements? The answer might surprise you: you already are. From the moment you decide where to meet for a first date, you're making agreements. But most of us are worried about being ‘too much’ or making a fuss, so we walk around with unspoken expectations, trying to be ‘cool’ and ‘chill,’ hoping everything will just magically work out. Agreements might seem like a vibe-killer, but in reality, the fear of seeming too rigid or demanding can set you up for heartbreak, confusion, and a whole lot of unnecessary pain. The truth is, agreements aren't about constraining your relationships or killing spontaneity. They're about making your expectations visible so you can actually relate to each other instead of just hoping you're on the same page. This is especially relevant when we shift from monogamy to non-monogamy, because our entire framework for safety, trust, and connection changes, and clear agreements become essential. In this episode, we talk about: — Why you're already making agreements whether you realize it or not (and why pretending you're not is causing problems) — The difference between implicit expectations and explicit agreements, and why making them visible changes everything — The problems that come along with the fear of "not being cool" or "asking for too much" — Why every agreement you make is actually with yourself, not your partner (this is a game-changer) — The power of starting small — How to handle asymmetries in relationships without pretending everything is "fair" or "equal" — Why agreements need revisit dates built in, and how to avoid only renegotiating when someone's already hurt — The liberation that comes from knowing where you stand, even when the agreement isn't what you'd prefer — How to make "minimum viable agreements" and first-draft agreements that you can adjust as you learn what you actually want — Why defining your terms matters more than you think — The difference between spontaneity and intentionality, and why you can have both — How clear agreements actually reduce anxiety and transform your nervous system — Why people avoid making agreements early (hint: they don't want to discover incompatibilities) — The importance of acknowledging what you want and need, even before you're totally sure what that is Resources mentioned in this episode: — Our episode on weasel words and how they undermine agreements — Our episode on relationship agreements 101 JOIN The Year Of Opening® community for a full year of learning & support Learn the 5 secrets to open your relationship the smart way Are you ready to open your relationship happily? Find out at www.JoliQuiz.com Get the answers you want to create the open relationship of your dreams! Sign up for a Playing With Fire Community Call here Music: Dance of Felt by ⁠Blue Dot Sessions

    255 When should we start making agreements in NEW relationships?
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4.9
out of 5
84 Ratings

About

Welcome to Playing With Fire, the podcast for people who are ready to custom-build their love. We’re talking about non-monogamy–however you design it–as an individuation opportunity. Want to leave the default and make your life spectacularly you? You’re in the right place.

Information

  • Creator
    Joli Hamilton, PhD and Ken Hamilton
  • Years Active
    2020 - 2026
  • Episodes
    267
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Joli Hamilton, PhD and Ken Hamilton
  • Show Website
    Playing With Fire

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