Heterodox Out Loud

Heterodox Academy
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Heterodox Out Loud, hosted by HxA president, John Tomasi, is an ongoing podcast featuring conversations with people across the academy and beyond. Listen to insightful, thought-provoking episodes from the HxA community by adding our podcast to your lineup.

  1. The University in the Age of AI: Rebuilding Trust, Truth, and Teaching with Kavita Bala | Ep 42

    JAN 27

    The University in the Age of AI: Rebuilding Trust, Truth, and Teaching with Kavita Bala | Ep 42

    At a moment when higher education faces accelerating technological disruption and intensifying public scrutiny, Cornell Provost Kavita Bala argues that universities must do two things at once: defend their truth-seeking mission with renewed clarity, and reimagine how they teach, research, and engage society in an era shaped by AI, polarization, and declining trust.   Today, John Tomasi welcomes Kavita Bala to discuss Cornell’s approach to fostering a durable culture of open inquiry based on idea exchange, viewpoint diversity, and constructive disagreement. Drawing on her experience as an AI researcher and Cornell provost, Bala explains how the “two-sided coin” of technology requires a university that integrates STEM and humanities to address issues like algorithmic bias and public trust.   The conversation also discusses Cornell’s recent shift toward institutional restraint. Bala explains Cornell’s approach to expressive activity and campus programs that foster dialogue, such as the Center for Dialogue and Pluralism (CDP) and a new Arts & Sciences course on Disagreement.   In This Episode: 💥 AI as both opportunity and destabilizer in higher education 💥 Declining public trust in universities—and in science 💥 Cornell’s land-grant mission and bidirectional knowledge exchange 💥 Institutional restraint and departmental speech norms (including dissent reporting) 💥 Expressive activity policy and time/place/manner principles 💥 Student dialogue-building via CDP and the course “Disagreement” 💥 Viewpoint diversity through research design 💥 “Any person, any study” as a living institutional ideal   About Kavita Bala: Kavita Bala is the 17th provost of Cornell University and a professor of computer science, bringing deep experience across research, academic leadership, and entrepreneurship. Before becoming provost on January 1, 2025, she served as the inaugural dean of the Cornell Ann S. Bowers College of Computing and Information Science and previously chaired Cornell’s Department of Computer Science. As dean, she helped secure the naming gift for the Bowers College, expanded faculty capacity, and advanced major initiatives in AI and interdisciplinary computing. Bala’s scholarship spans computer vision, computer graphics, and artificial intelligence, with contributions to image understanding and the modeling of complex materials, including work on recognizing styles and object attributes. She also co-founded the visual search startup GrokStyle, which was later acquired by Facebook. Her honors include being named an ACM Fellow and receiving the SIGGRAPH Computer Graphics Achievement Award. She earned a B.Tech. from IIT Bombay and an M.S. and Ph.D. in computer science from MIT.   Follow Kavita Bala on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kavita-bala-052409/ Follow Heterodox Academy on: Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5Dy Facebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfw LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJ Instagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUg Substack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF   🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

    54 min
  2. Can Universities Change Without Government Intervention? With Mary Kate Cary | Ep 41

    12/16/2025

    Can Universities Change Without Government Intervention? With Mary Kate Cary | Ep 41

    How can universities rekindle public trust and foster genuine viewpoint diversity, without relying on government mandates? Today’s guest is Mary Kate Cary, adjunct professor at the University of Virginia (UVA), seasoned presidential speechwriter, and co-chair of Heterodox Academy’s campus community at UVA. John Tomasi and Mary Kate examine the urgent need to move beyond top-down reforms and build cultures of open inquiry from the ground up. Drawing on recent Gallup polling that shows public confidence in higher education has plummeted from 60% to 32%, Mary Kate argues for bottom-up solutions rooted in the distinctive ethos and history of each campus. She shares examples of innovative, student-facing programming at UVA, such as “Think Again,” “Free Speech Fridays,” and “Disagree with the Professor,” that encourage intellectual humility, critical thinking, and constructive disagreement. The conversation provides actionable insights for faculty, administrators, and students committed to strengthening open inquiry and viewpoint diversity, highlighting the role of both faculty leadership and supportive administration in achieving durable change.   In This Episode: 💥 Public trust and viewpoint diversity in higher education 💥 Adapting free speech principles to unique campus histories 💥 Bottom-up versus top-down academic reforms 💥 Student engagement initiatives: “Think Again” and “Free Speech Fridays” 💥 Co-teaching across political divides at UVA 💥 Institutional neutrality and its impact on campus culture 💥 Partnerships with BridgeUSA, Braver Angels, and Disagree Better   About Mary Kate: Mary Kate Cary is Deputy Chief of Staff for Communications and Strategic Initiatives in the Office of the Interim President at the University of Virginia and a long-time advocate for open inquiry, free speech, and viewpoint diversity on campus. She previously served as an adjunct professor in UVA’s Politics Department, where she taught courses on political speechwriting, the greatest speeches in American history, and co-taught a bipartisan election class. Cary is the founding director of Think Again at UVA, a student-facing initiative promoting free speech, critical thinking, and respectful debate, and she co-chairs the Heterodox Academy Campus Community at UVA, one of the largest chapters of the organization. Before her work in higher education, Cary was a White House speechwriter for President George H.W. Bush and has worked as a political commentator, professional speaker, and writer. She was a recipient of the 2024 Heterodox Academy Open Inquiry Leadership Award for her efforts in advancing open inquiry and constructive disagreement on campus. Follow Mary Kate on X: https://x.com/mkcary Follow Heterodox Academy on: Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5Dy Facebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfw LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJ Instagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUg Substack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF   🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

    49 min
  3. Embracing Disagreement and Diversity at the University of Denver with Jeremy Haefner | Ep 40

    11/18/2025

    Embracing Disagreement and Diversity at the University of Denver with Jeremy Haefner | Ep 40

    What does it take to build a university where open inquiry is not just protected, but actively practiced? In this wide-ranging episode, University of Denver Chancellor Jeremy Haefner offers a rare, candid look at the challenges and opportunities of transforming campus culture in a polarized era. From institutional neutrality to civil discourse, from pluralism to DEI reform, Haefner shares how the University of Denver is attempting to lead higher education into its next chapter.   Today, John Tomasi, President of Heterodox Academy, speaks with Haefner about DU’s ambitious initiatives aimed at strengthening the university’s core commitments to open inquiry, viewpoint diversity, and constructive disagreement. Haefner discusses the Denver Dialogues, a flagship program that brings scholars with divergent perspectives into sustained engagement with students; Debate Across the Curriculum, a faculty-led innovation that measurably shifts students’ readiness to engage across differences; and Spark Day, DU’s annual celebration of free expression and civil discourse.   The conversation also probes deeply into Haefner’s decision to adopt a policy of institutional neutrality, the university’s response to the Trump Administration’s directives on DEI, and the complexities of balancing inclusion with the truth-seeking mission of the academy. Tune in to explore how universities can renew their mission, and why pluralism matters now more than ever.   In This Episode: 💥 Building a culture of open inquiry across an entire university. 💥 The Denver Dialogues and pluralism-driven campus programming. 💥 Evidence-based impacts of Debate Across the Curriculum. 💥 Institutional neutrality and the Calvin Report tradition. 💥 DEI reform and the challenge of aligning inclusion with open inquiry. 💥 The launch of the National Academy for Free Expression and Pluralism.   About Jeremy: Jeremy Haefner is the 19th Chancellor of the University of Denver, appointed to the role in 2019 after serving as the university’s provost and executive vice chancellor. He holds a PhD in mathematics from the University of Wisconsin–Madison, and began his academic career as a professor before moving into administrative leadership. Prior to joining DU, he served as provost and senior vice president for academic affairs at the Rochester Institute of Technology, and spent two decades at the University of Colorado–Colorado Springs in a variety of academic and administrative roles. His leadership work has included areas such as faculty development, research support, international education, and interdisciplinary program design. At the University of Denver, Haefner has overseen strategic efforts focused on academic transformation, civic engagement, student belonging, and the development of a comprehensive undergraduate experience. His tenure has included the launch of initiatives aimed at strengthening open inquiry and free expression on campus, alongside adjustments to institutional policy in response to changes in the legal and political landscape surrounding higher education. Follow Jeremy on X: https://x.com/DU_chancellor Follow Heterodox Academy on: Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5Dy Facebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfw LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJ Instagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUg Substack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF   🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

    48 min
  4. Rebuilding Trust in Higher Ed with Chancellor Andrew Martin | Ep 39

    10/07/2025

    Rebuilding Trust in Higher Ed with Chancellor Andrew Martin | Ep 39

    Can colleges be engines of rigorous civil debate, or are self-censorship and fear stifling the next generation of thinkers? Today, we welcome Chancellor Andrew Martin of Washington University in St. Louis, a leading scholar and administrator recognized for reshaping institutional culture at the highest levels of academia.   Chancellor Martin discusses his strategic initiatives to foster a climate of rigorous, principled debate and constructive disagreement at WashU, ranging from the creation of the "Dialogue Across Difference" program to groundbreaking admissions policies that increase socioeconomic and ideological diversity. He unpacks the recently released Vanderbilt–WashU Statement of Principles, a collaborative effort with Vanderbilt University, aimed at recommitting academic institutions to the foundational pillars of excellence, academic freedom, and free expression.    Explore how WashU’s Order of Liberty and cluster faculty hiring initiatives promote diverse perspectives, incorporating both liberal and civic virtue frameworks. Understand how institutional neutrality, along with dialogue and engagement, fosters a dynamic academic community.   In This Episode: 💥 The Vanderbilt–WashU Statement of Principles and institutional neutrality. 💥 WashU’s Dialogue Across Difference program. 💥 Admissions reforms and Pell Grant expansion for socioeconomic diversity. 💥 The Order of Liberty Project and faculty hiring for ideological diversity. 💥 Challenges and responsibilities of academic freedom and self-censorship.   About Andrew: Andrew D. Martin is the 15th chancellor of Washington University in St. Louis, inaugurated on October 3, 2019. He previously served as dean of the College of Literature, Science, and the Arts at the University of Michigan from 2014 to 2018 and is a political scientist known for the Martin-Quinn scores used to study U.S. Supreme Court ideology. At WashU, he launched access initiatives, including the WashU Pledge and Gateway to Success, and moved the university to a no-loan undergraduate aid policy. In fall 2024, he co-signed a Statement of Principles with Vanderbilt Chancellor Daniel Diermeier, adopted by both universities’ boards, affirming free expression, academic freedom, and institutional neutrality. In September 2025, he launched the Ordered Liberty Project to advance academic freedom, viewpoint diversity, and civic education. Follow Andrew on X: https://x.com/washuchancellor Follow Heterodox Academy on: Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5Dy Facebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfw LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJ Instagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUg Substack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF   🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

    47 min
  5. Faith, Fear, and the Future of Democracy with Jonathan Rauch | Ep 38

    06/17/2025

    Faith, Fear, and the Future of Democracy with Jonathan Rauch | Ep 38

    Why does a self-described “gay, atheistic Jewish guy” argue that America needs more Christianity right now? In this thought-provoking episode, Jonathan Rauch, author, Brookings Institution senior fellow, and newly appointed board member of Heterodox Academy, joins host John Tomasi for an insightful discussion recorded in Washington, D.C.   Jonathan reflects on his new book, Cross Purposes, a contrarian apology for the Christian values that once helped sustain both American self-government and its universities. Drawing from personal narratives, constitutional history, and contemporary social fractures, Rauch argues that the decline of robust, virtue-based Christianity and the politicization of faith have contributed to polarization, anxiety, and a crisis of institutional trust.   Jonathan and John discuss Tocqueville’s analysis of individualism, the “God-shaped hole” now filled by less constructive substitutes, and what both faith and scholarship can contribute to a pluralistic republic. Join us for the conversation and explore practical and philosophical pathways to revive the transformative power of both religious and academic institutions.   In This Episode: 💥 Three core Christian virtues as a civic foundation 💥 The perils of “thin,” “sharp,” and “thick” Christianity 💥 Tocqueville, individualism, and the promise of civil society 💥 The hollowing of purpose and scholarly virtue in higher education 💥 Faith, viewpoint diversity, and restoring vibrant campus culture 💥 Challenges and opportunities for self-reform in academia   Read Jonathan’s latest book, Cross Purposes: https://a.co/d/dRaWsfL Check out more about the Brookings Institution: https://www.brookings.edu/   About Jonathan: Jonathan Rauch is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributing writer for The Atlantic, renowned for his incisive commentary on public policy, culture, and governance. He has authored several influential books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth (2021), which delves into the challenges of disinformation and the importance of truth in democratic societies. His latest book, Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy (2025), examines the evolving relationship between American Christianity and liberal democracy, arguing that the decline of religious institutions has significant implications for democratic health. Rauch's extensive body of work reflects his commitment to exploring complex societal issues, making him a prominent voice in contemporary discussions on democracy, religion, and public discourse.  In January 2025, Rauch was appointed to the Board of Directors of Heterodox Academy (HxA),  Follow Jonathan on X: https://x.com/jon_rauch ============================ Follow Heterodox Academy on: Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5Dy Facebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfw LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJ Instagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUg Substack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF   🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

    1h 2m
  6. How Can We Fix Our Universities Without Burning Them Down? With Michael Roth | Ep 37

    06/03/2025

    How Can We Fix Our Universities Without Burning Them Down? With Michael Roth | Ep 37

    Trust in universities has cratered, ideological divisions are deepening, and the future of higher education is hotly contested. How do we repair our academic institutions without tearing them down entirely? Today on Heterodox Out Loud, host John Tomasi welcomes Michael Roth, President of Wesleyan University, historian, and esteemed thought leader on liberal education, for a frank and probing dialogue.   Drawing on recent Gallup polling data, Michael and John examine the collapse of public trust in higher education, particularly among conservatives, and the orchestrated efforts across the spectrum to delegitimize academic institutions. Michael discusses the double bind facing universities: the hard-won gains in gender, racial, and religious inclusion overlaying a stark decline in viewpoint and ideological diversity among faculty and students.   The discussion traverses the enduring tensions between diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives and the imperative of open inquiry. Roth critiques both anti-elitist grievance-mongering and the insularity of academic circles, arguing for an educational environment that prizes rigorous debate, intellectual pluralism, and genuine mutual respect. Together, Tomasi and Roth confront thorny questions: How do universities maintain their relevance in a polarized society? Is the narrowing of acceptable discourse stifling academic innovation? And what role should university leaders play amid mounting political interventions and societal pressures?   In This Episode: 💥 Declining trust in higher education due to perceptions of elitism and delegitimation 💥 Grievance politics influencing perspectives from both the left and right 💥 Reduced viewpoint and ideological diversity among faculty members 💥 Overreaching DEI initiatives leading to unintended consequences 💥 Structural barriers hindering ideological pluralism in hiring and admissions practices 💥 University leadership's role in managing political pressure and rebuilding trust through debate   About Michael: Michael S. Roth, a historian, curator, and advocate for liberal education, has served as the 16th president of Wesleyan University since July 1, 2007. An alumnus of Wesleyan (Class of 1978), graduating summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, before earning a Ph.D. in history from Princeton University in 1984. Before returning to Wesleyan, Roth held several prominent academic positions, including president of the California College of the Arts, associate director of the Getty Research Institute, and founding director of the Scripps College Humanities Institute. His scholarly work focuses on how individuals and societies interpret the past, and he has authored numerous books, such as Beyond the University: Why Liberal Education Matters and Safe Enough Spaces: A Pragmatist’s Approach to Inclusion, Free Speech, and Political Correctness on College Campuses. A vocal proponent of academic freedom, Roth has been recognized for his defense of higher education institutions against political pressures. In 2025, he received the PEN/Benenson Courage Award for his commitment to upholding the independence of colleges and universities.   Follow Michael on X: https://x.com/mroth78 Follow Heterodox Academy on: Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5Dy Facebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfw LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJ Instagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUg Substack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF   🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

    56 min
  7. Can This AI Tool Save Campus Dialogue? With Simon Cullen | Ep 36

    05/20/2025

    Can This AI Tool Save Campus Dialogue? With Simon Cullen | Ep 36

    Can artificial intelligence transform how we navigate the most challenging dialogues on campus? Join us for a thought-provoking episode featuring philosopher and educator Simon Cullen, as he unveils his pioneering work at the intersection of education, technology, and constructive disagreement. In conversation with John Tomasi, Simon explores how open inquiry is both advanced and imperiled by disagreement, and describes his academic journey from Australia to Princeton and Carnegie Mellon. Central to the discussion is ‘Sway’ an AI-powered platform developed by Simon and his team to foster rigorous, evidence-based dialogue among students on controversial topics. Sway intelligently pairs students with opposing views and acts as a “guide on the side,” scaffolding reasoning, encouraging intellectual humility, and ensuring that exchanges remain constructive and charitable. Simon shares the empirical findings from thousands of Sway-mediated dialogues, where measurable increases in students’ openness, comfort, and analytical reasoning have been observed—even on divisive subjects like gender, immigration, and the Israel-Palestine conflict.   In This Episode: 💥 The pedagogical importance of constructive disagreement and argument visualization 💥 The design and implementation of Sway: an AI tool for dialogue across differences 💥 Empirical research on autonomy, self-censorship, and openness to opposing viewpoints 💥 Strategies for motivating student engagement in difficult conversations 💥 Scalable, evidence-based methods for promoting viewpoint diversity in higher education   Want to experience Sway for yourself? You can instantly start a conversation—no account, no signup, no hassle. Just generate a link, share it with a friend (or a friendly opponent), and jump straight into a thoughtful dialogue. Read more about research findings and reports Explore Simon’s Argument Mapping Tool: Mindmup.com   About Simon: Simon Cullen is a faculty member, Dean's Innovation Scholar, and Artificial Intelligence and Education Fellow at Carnegie Mellon University. He developed the award-winning "Dangerous Ideas in Science and Society" course and serves as founding co-chair of CMU's Heterodox Community. Simon's innovative research combines philosophy, cognitive science, and educational technology to improve reasoning and communication across moral and political divides. He is the co-developer of "Sway,” a chat platform that uses AI to facilitate constructive dialogue between students with differing viewpoints. His research has been published in Science Advances, Nature Science of Learning, Cognition, and the Review of Philosophy and Psychology. He holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University and specializes in the psychology and pedagogy of reasoning, and evidence-based approaches to promoting open inquiry in higher education. Next year, Simon will be a Faculty Research Fellow at the Segal Center for Academic Pluralism in New York City. Learn more about Simon Follow Heterodox Academy on: Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5Dy Facebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfw LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJ Instagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUg Substack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF   🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

    1h 6m
  8. Is Sociology Broken? Jukka Savolainen on Ideology and Reform | Ep 35

    05/06/2025

    Is Sociology Broken? Jukka Savolainen on Ideology and Reform | Ep 35

    How can sociology reclaim its commitment to rigorous inquiry and viewpoint diversity? Today, John Tomasi sits with Jukka Savolainen, Ph.D., Sociology professor at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, and the moderator of the Heterodox Academy’s Sociology community. They discuss the discipline's current challenges, including ideological bias and lack of viewpoint diversity, and explore potential paths toward reform.     Jukka shares his journey into sociology and his decision to leave Finland to pursue a PhD in the United States due to concerns about postmodernist influences in Finnish sociology. He addresses the core aims of sociology, its present state of fragmentation, and the impact of ideological bias on research and discourse. Jukka highlights the importance of empirical evidence and viewpoint diversity while pointing out taboos and restrictions on certain topics within the field. The conversation also examines the role of external interventions, using the example of the Danish government's restructuring of the sociology department at Copenhagen University in the 1980s, and the more recent actions by the state of Florida.   In This Episode: 💥 The ideological capture of sociology and its impact on research 💥 The lack of viewpoint diversity in the field 💥 The importance of empirical evidence and rigorous methodology 💥 Efforts to reform sociology from within 💥 The role of external intervention in addressing systemic problems 💥 The case of Mark Regnerus's controversial study on same-sex parenting   About Jukka: Jukka Savolainen is a professor of sociology and criminology at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, holding a dual appointment in the departments of Sociology and Criminology & Criminal Justice. He earned his Ph.D. in sociology from the State University of New York at Albany and an M.Soc.Sci. from the University of Helsinki. His research focuses on criminology, demography, cross-national comparisons, and the sociology of violence. Savolainen has been a vocal critic of ideological conformity in academia, particularly within the field of sociology, and is an active member of Heterodox Academy, where he serves as a moderator of its sociology community. He has also contributed essays to outlets like Quillette and the National Association of Scholars, challenging prevailing narratives on race, policing, and academic freedom. Previously, Savolainen served as Director of the National Archive of Criminal Justice Data at the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research.   Follow Jukka on X: https://x.com/jukkasavo Follow Heterodox Academy on: Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5Dy Facebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfw LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJ Instagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUg Substack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF   🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

    44 min
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About

Heterodox Out Loud, hosted by HxA president, John Tomasi, is an ongoing podcast featuring conversations with people across the academy and beyond. Listen to insightful, thought-provoking episodes from the HxA community by adding our podcast to your lineup.

Information

  • Creator
    Heterodox Academy
  • Years Active
    2021 - 2026
  • Episodes
    88
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Heterodox Academy
  • Show Website
    Heterodox Out Loud

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