In this powerful new episode of Manager Minute, host Carol Pankow sits down with renowned researcher and educator Dr. Jim Herbert to unpack one of the most urgent challenges in vocational rehabilitation today: counselor turnover and retention. Drawing from his brand-new national study on RSA-funded personnel, Jim breaks down the real factors that influence whether VR counselors intend to stay — or walk away. From organizational support and supervisor relationships to workload, generational values, and work–life balance, Jim reveals why retention is a "whole system issue," not a single-variable problem. He also shares bold, practical solutions for VR agencies, including flexible scheduling, paid internships, rehiring retirees, strengthening supervision practices, and his attention-grabbing recommendation of a 32-hour workweek at full pay. As a new partner with the VRTAC, Jim also previews upcoming national recruitment and retention initiatives — including a new toolkit for VR HR teams and direct clinical supervision work with a selected state VR agency. This is an episode every VR director, supervisor, and counselor needs to hear. Listen now and join the conversation about the future of the VR workforce. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Jim: Supervisors play an understated but really critical role in the relationship with their counselors and how that contributes to them staying or leaving. What I suggested was moving to a four day, 32 hour workweek at the same pay. What are you doing to try to address this? What's working for you, and then be able to kind of put that in a toolkit or a resource? We want to share that nationwide. So I'm looking for a state VR agency of supervisors and say, yep, let's tangle with that academic from Penn State. Let's do it. {Music} Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Doctor Jim Herbert. Jim's a long time researcher, educator and advocate for the field of rehabilitation counseling, and I'm thrilled to share that he will also be working with us on the VRTAC grant in some exciting new recruitment and retention efforts. And today, we get to talk not only about Jim's earlier research on counselor turnover, but also his brand new national study on the long term effectiveness of RSA training and what predicts whether VR personnel intend to stay or leave. So, Jim, this makes me laugh to ask you this. How are things going in your retirement? Jim: That's right. Yes. As you know, I recently retired, quote unquote, effective July 1st. I'll just tell you that I'm in what they refer to as the honeymoon phase. So basically it's like, oh, I love it. So while I continue to do academic work, such as the project that we're working with you guys on, I'm really super busy with nonacademic projects like gardening and landscaping. And as you saw, we just got a new puppy who consumes quite a lot of my time, so it's going wonderful. Carol: I love it, I just have to chuckle because you are the busiest retired guy I know, so we were glad we could snag you. Jim: I'm glad to be snagged. Carol: That's awesome. So today we're going to dive into a topic that hits close to home for every VR professional. Why rehabilitation counselors leave the field, and what keeps others committed for the long haul. So let's start by imagining a counselor with a full caseload, endless paperwork, competing demands someone who came into this work to make a difference, but they're now struggling to stay motivated. What makes some counselors walk away while others find ways to stay the course? So let's dig into your work. So, Jim, what first drew you to studying counselor retention and turnover in VR? Jim: Well, as we'll discuss a little bit further, everything else in terms of VR and my work in VR, I have a long history and frankly, a long affection for state counsellors. 40 some years ago when I got into this field, I got to work with a lot of VR counselors and I have so much respect for them in the work that they do. And over the last couple of decades in particular, things are becoming increasingly more and more difficult. And so as we'll talk a little bit, maybe we can get into like your first questions about, well, which I think is a critical one, like, well, why is it that some counselors stay and why do others leave? And so, you know, when you look at that a little bit and feel free to interrupt me because, you know, many academicians, we tend to be a little bit long-winded. Carol: You're a talker, Jim. Jim: There you go. So, you know, when you look at it, it's really a combination of individual and situational factors. You know, when you ask counselors, well what attracted you to this? And I think people get drawn into the profession because they want to make a difference. They see people that need help and they feel like, hey, I'm in a position maybe I can offer support or direction and services can make a difference in their lives. So I think that's a big part of it. And then also as a result of that, why they get into that field, I think what happens is over the years, things start to change. They start thinking like, geez, you know what? I thought I got into this field, the job was going to be this way. And really now what I'm finding is it's not that way, or what happens is the thing that drew me in terms of the interaction with people and making the impact. I find myself spending more time with the documentation process and all the rules and regulations, and not as much time to really that I would like to having that one on one contact with people. So I think what happens is their job, their satisfaction changes as a function of kind of, you know, over that period. The other thing I'll just say to expand on why some people stay and why they walk away. I think one of the things in the beginning, especially with new counselors, their knowledge about the world of work and the job as a state VR counselor. They have a different understanding of what that's all involve. Okay. And one of the things that I think is important to, particularly those individuals, maybe in your audience who are thinking about being a rehab counselor, either switching in or pursuing training. One of the things that I try to stress with my students is make sure you get lots of experience. So while you're going to school and getting your education, do that volunteer work. Do a practicum. Do an internship with a state VR agency. I've said this a thousand, but certainly lots of times I'll say you'll learn more in the field from any lecture that I'm going to give or any rehab professor. So I think what happens with particularly newer counselors, they have a limited understanding about what is this job about and what do you need to do to be a successful rehab. So we only know what we know. So their expectations, I think they get a little disillusioned. A second thing though, as I said, the work of a VR counselor counselor's tough stuff. You know, you look at the research over the decades about things that impact rehab counselors decision and what is the things that they don't like. So lower salaries, comparison to other kind of counseling positions, high caseloads, the paperwork, lack of supervisory support, particularly in the area of clinical supervision. And we get a chance. I can talk about that a little bit further. There's also, I think, an incongruity between what a counselor has interest in their needs and what they're motivated by and what exists in the work environment. Those factors definitely contribute to work satisfaction. And the other thing we can talk about this in terms of our study, lack of autonomy, the inflexibility, you know, with work schedule and then obviously, you know, kind of personal reasons. So you've got all these factors that counselors have to have some resiliency to try to navigate all these kinds of challenges. And I think that's the key difference. What is it that counselor a can because they all have all these same challenges. Why is a say I can negotiate this whereas counselor B and I can't do that. And I think that probably over simplistic explanation is there is a resiliency for that. Counselors like I can take all of these and then I can look at yep, these are problems. But these other things still are important to me. And I can still kind of navigate that. And then the final thing, and I've become more and more aware of it over the last couple years, multi-generational workforce. So people are living longer. I mean, I, you know, I'm a baby boomer. I think technically I think I'm a late baby boomer, but so basically I'm ancient. But we have people, you have the Gen Z, and I think that's the group from 97 to 2012. You got the millennials born, you know, 81, 86. You got the Gen Xers and those when you talk with people from different generations. When I talk with my students who mostly the Gen Z millennial type. They have a different view about the world of work. And basically if I had and again, this I don't mean to stereotype, but I think there's some validity in this. And I have a son who's 28 years old and he'll say, dad, you work too damn hard. And so the thing is, is like what he's saying is, and I think others of his generation, there's more to life than work. And so when I look at work, while that's important, I don't have the same kind of importance necessary that you might attach to it. And in fact, what I'm really looking for is a better balance, work life balance. And this is where state VR agencies, I think, kind of fall down because we need to kind of how do we kind of create that better balance so that we have, particularly the younger ones who
