Beyond the Resume

Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker

Co-hosted by industry veterans, Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker, the weekly Beyond the Resume Podcast features interviews with some of the best known real estate experts in the U.S. By exploring how they built their successful careers and the impact they have made to the communities around them we hope to educate and inspire anyone building or thinking of building a career in real estate. Join us as we go Beyond the Resume.

  1. Beyond the Resume podcast with Judy Herbstman (Trust is the foundation)

    2d ago

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Judy Herbstman (Trust is the foundation)

    In this episode of *Beyond the Resume*, we sit down with Judy Herbstman, President of Settlement Housing Fund, for a conversation about affordable housing, mission-driven leadership, nonprofit development, and building a career rooted in public service.Judy shares how Settlement Housing Fund continues its work as a nonprofit affordable housing developer serving residents across the Bronx, Manhattan, and Brooklyn, while also expanding into supportive housing and resident services. She reflects on her path from mental health advocacy to housing, including formative experiences at HUD, graduate school at NYU, and early affordable housing development work in New York City.The conversation also explores Judy’s transition from running real estate development to leading an organization, the learning curve of executive leadership, the value of project management, and the importance of clear communication, collaboration, and mission alignment. Judy offers thoughtful advice for young professionals entering the affordable housing field, emphasizing respect for residents, understanding personal strengths, and developing the skills needed to contribute meaningfully.Chris and Judy also discuss hiring, mentorship, direct feedback, work-life balance, and the leaders who helped shape Judy’s approach to management and service.CHAPTERS(00:45) Meet Judy Herbstman and Settlement Housing Fund(02:55) Serving residents and expanding supportive housing(04:25) Moving from development leader to president(06:40) Learning executive leadership on the job(08:45) A mission-driven path shaped by service(10:55) From mental health advocacy to housing(12:50) HUD, NYU, and learning affordable housing development(15:35) Nonprofit vs. for-profit affordable housing work(17:35) Collaborative leadership and stakeholder trust(20:00) Growth, preservation, and the future of affordable housing(21:15) Advice for emerging affordable housing professionals(23:50) Books, routines, parenting, and staying grounded(26:15) Hiring for mission alignment and respect for residents(27:40) Mentorship, feedback, and leadership lessonsYouTube: https://youtu.be/hPTtcUz0rY4Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotifyApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    30 min
  2. Beyond the Resume podcast with Ken Clark (A greater sense of purpose)

    Jun 22

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Ken Clark (A greater sense of purpose)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker sit down with Ken Clark, COO of Columbia Residential, for a thoughtful conversation about affordable housing, leadership, career pivots, mixed-income development, AI, mentorship, and the deeper purpose behind mission-driven work. Ken shares the winding path that led him from Morehouse College to law firm operations, accounting, the Atlanta Housing Authority, consulting, and eventually Columbia Residential, where he now helps lead one of the Southeast’s major affordable and mixed-income housing organizations. He reflects on the influence of Columbia Residential founder Noel Khalil, whose belief that the company builds “cathedrals for God’s children” continues to shape the organization’s commitment to quality housing. The conversation also explores Atlanta’s transformation, the role of public housing authorities, the future of mixed-income housing, and why the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit remains one of the most reliable tools for affordable housing development. Ken also discusses how AI may improve routine processes in housing while emphasizing that people, judgment, and human-centered leadership remain essential. In one of the episode’s most personal moments, Ken opens up about the loss of his son in 2014 and how that tragedy deepened his commitment to service, family, and helping people thrive. He also shares the routines that keep him grounded, the mentors who shaped his leadership, and the books and podcasts that continue to influence how he leads. CHAPTERS (01:00) Columbia Residential’s mission and affordable housing work (03:10) Ken’s unexpected path into business, real estate, and housing (06:05) From Atlanta Housing Authority to real estate and consulting (09:40) A personal tragedy that deepened Ken’s sense of purpose (12:20) What a COO actually does: people, process, systems, and execution (15:30) AI, affordable housing, and why people still matter (18:10) Mixed-income housing, tax credits, and financing challenges (22:25) Resident services, relocation, and supporting communities (24:15) How Atlanta has transformed through housing and redevelopment (28:10) Ken’s personal connection to public housing revitalization (29:30) The Hot Seat: books, podcasts, mindfulness, and daily routines (34:25) Mentorship, service, and investing in people (37:00) Closing reflections and lifelong relationships LINKS -- YouTube: https://youtu.be/ijJfuIQmUI8 Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotify Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    38 min
  3. Beyond the Resume podcast with Jennifer Litwak (An affordable housing PEP talk)

    Jun 15

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Jennifer Litwak (An affordable housing PEP talk)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, hosts Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker sit down with Jennifer Litwak, President and CEO of PEP Housing, a nonprofit affordable housing development company headquartered in Sonoma County. Jennifer shares how her path from law, child advocacy, and policy work led her into affordable housing, and why she sees housing not just as real estate, but as a matter of social justice, health, education, stability, and human dignity. The conversation explores PEP Housing’s 48-year legacy, its 23-property portfolio, and its deep expertise in senior affordable housing. Jennifer discusses the growing urgency around senior homelessness in California, the gap between independent affordable housing and affordable assisted living or skilled nursing, and the policy and funding reforms needed to create a more complete continuum of housing for aging residents. She also breaks down the operational realities of senior affordable housing, from long waitlists and resident services to compliance, maintenance, and aging-in-place challenges. The episode also moves into Jennifer’s leadership outside of PEP Housing, including her work with ULI, Globe Street Women of Influence, women-led investment groups, giving circles, and efforts to elevate more women into corporate boardrooms. To close, Jennifer shares her personal grounding practices, including daily meditation, gratitude, and sailing, before offering direct career advice for young professionals: be prepared, do your research, send the thank-you note, and show employers that you understand both the role and the organization. CHAPTERS (02:31) Affordable Housing as Social Justice Jennifer explains how her background as an attorney and child advocate connects to her belief that housing is a human right and that safe, affordable, stable housing shapes health, education, and life outcomes. (05:14) From Big Law to Housing Policy Jennifer reflects on leaving the traditional law firm path, moving into housing and homelessness policy work, and realizing that affordable housing developers needed to be part of the solution-oriented conversations around homelessness. (08:42) The Senior Housing Cliff The conversation turns to senior homelessness, affordable senior housing, and the gap that appears when residents need more support than independent living can provide but cannot afford assisted living or skilled nursing. (13:11) HUD, Assisted Living and Policy Reform Jennifer discusses her “magic wand” idea: revisiting programs and funding models that could help convert certain HUD-funded senior housing into assisted living and create more affordable options across the senior housing continuum. (16:27) The Reality of Operating Senior Housing Jennifer explains the operational complexity of senior affordable housing, including seven-year average waitlists, resident services, compliance, in-unit modifications, maintenance needs, and the importance of experienced long-term ownership. (25:09) Women, Capital and Leadership Access Jennifer talks about advancing women in commercial real estate through Globe Street Women of Influence, women-led investment groups, giving circles, and corporate board advocacy, while Lisa and Chris discuss mentorship, sponsorship, and male allies. (32:11) Gratitude, Sailing, Hiring and Mentorship In the hot seat, Jennifer shares podcast recommendations, her daily meditation and gratitude practices, her love of sailing, what she looks for when hiring, and the mentors who shaped her leadership. -- Jennifer Litwak, PEP Housing, Beyond the Resume podcast, affordable housing, senior affordable housing, workforce housing, senior homelessness, housing policy, women in commercial real estate, ULI -- YouTube: https://youtu.be/SwowwurzBxA Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotify Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    43 min
  4. Beyond the Resume podcast with Jennifer Clausen (Raising Capital, Building Trust)

    Jun 8

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Jennifer Clausen (Raising Capital, Building Trust)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, we sit down with Jennifer Clausen, Partner at LEM, for a wide-ranging conversation about commercial real estate, capital raising, investor relations, value-add multifamily investing, leadership, succession planning, workforce housing, and the relationships that drive long-term success in real estate private equity. Jennifer shares how her career moved from communications and Hispanic studies to currency trading, office brokerage, hedge fund capital raising, and ultimately into multifamily investing at LEM. She explains why capital raising is less about quick wins and more about building cycle-resilient relationships that can last 10 to 20 years. From investor transparency and bespoke presentations to quarterly investor letters and understanding the needs of high-net-worth investors versus public pensions, Jennifer breaks down what it actually takes to earn trust in the capital markets. The conversation also explores LEM’s evolution from a founder-led firm to the next generation of leadership, including the challenges of moving from peer to leader, building culture inside a 20-person firm, and executing succession planning in a thoughtful way. Jenniferalso discusses LEM’s focus on value-add multifamily, growth markets, workforce housing, lowercase affordable housing, and why housing supply remains central to the affordability conversation. The episode closes with Jennifer’s perspective on hiring, mentorship, women in real estate, relationship-driven leadership, and why “DPI is the new IRR.” CHAPTERS (01:32) From Fund IV To Fund VII Jennifer introduces her role at LEM, where she became a partner in 2022 after nearly a decade with the firm, leading capital raising, investor relations, and operations. (02:32) LEM’s Value-Add Multifamily Focus Jennifer explains LEM’s 25-year history, its shift from structured debt to equity after the GFC, and its focus on value-add multifamily investments in growth markets. (03:40) From Romance Languages To Real Estate Jennifer traces her path from communications and Hispanic studies to currency trading for a Mexican bank, office brokerage in San Diego, hedge fund capital raising, and eventually LEM. (07:29) Capital Raising Is An Ultra-Marathon Jennifer breaks down why capital raising is not a quick transaction, but a long-term process built on trust, transparency, investor education, and relationships that can last decades. (12:02) Learning The Product, Leading The Team Jennifer discusses why asset management or portfolio management can be a powerful foundation for capital raising, and how she learned by asking questions and staying curious. (13:14) Founder Culture To Next-Gen Leadership Jennifer shares how LEM evolved from a founder-led culture into the next generation of leadership, including the challenge of moving from peer to leader and building a collaborative team culture. (24:38) Workforce Housing, NOAA, And Supply Jennifer discusses LEM’s growth markets, workforce housing renter profile, lowercase affordable housing, municipal tax structures, and why supply is central to the national affordability challenge. ---- Jennifer Clausen, Beyond the Resume, LEM, commercial real estate, capital raising, investor relations, value-add multifamily, workforce housing, affordable housing, real estate private equity, succession planning, women in real estate -- YouTube: https://youtu.be/tZ0uwcwklpI Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotify Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    41 min
  5. Beyond the Resume podcast with Pamela West (Excellence in every unit)

    May 26

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Pamela West (Excellence in every unit)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, we sit down with Pamela West, Head of U.S. Affordable Housing & Portfolio Manager at Nuveen, for a conversation about affordable housing investment, institutional capital, impact investing, leadership, and career growth in real estate. Pamela discusses her role leading Nuveen’s U.S. affordable housing platform, including acquisitions, asset management, portfolio strategy, and long-term investment performance. She explains how Nuveen’s work connects to TIAA’s legacy of helping people retire with dignity, and why that mission created a natural bridge into responsible investing and housing that serves working families and communities. The conversation traces the evolution of Nuveen’s affordable housing strategy, from early debt financing to fund investments, direct ownership, and the strategic value of managing investments from acquisition through operations and responsible exit. Pamela also shares why affordable housing has become more attractive to institutional investors, pointing to durable cash flows, strong demand, government support, lower turnover, and the growing recognition that impact and returns do not have to be in conflict. Pamela also reflects on her unconventional path into real estate. Raised in North Carolina in a family of educators, she began as an eighth-grade language arts teacher before moving into multifamily investment sales at CBRE, earning her MBA, and ultimately finding a role at TIAA and Nuveen that connected her investment career with her personal sense of purpose. The episode also covers leadership, hiring, mentorship, women’s professional networks, and what makes someone successful in real estate. CHAPTERS (00:00) TIAA’s Affordable Housing Origin Story Pamela explains how TIAA’s mission of helping people retire with dignity helped shape its early investment in affordable housing through responsible investing. (02:23) Stumbling Into a Specialized Sector Pamela shares how affordable housing became her niche after starting in multifamily, working across real estate sectors, and recognizing the potential of the platform. (04:33) From Financing to Direct Ownership The conversation turns to the evolution of the portfolio, including early investments, emerging managers, direct acquisitions, and the strategic thinking behind the Omni platform. (06:50) No Typical Day in Affordable Housing Pamela describes the variety of her work, from real estate investing and resident services to public-private partnerships and community-level problem-solving. (08:30) High Expectations, Clear Feedback Pamela breaks down her leadership style: hiring smart people, giving autonomy, being direct, creating lessons from mistakes, and recognizing strong performance. (12:40) Institutional Capital Enters the Market The discussion explores how institutional investment has changed affordable housing by improving operations, addressing deferred maintenance, and professionalizing the market. (16:00) From Teacher to Real Estate Investor Pamela reflects on growing up in North Carolina, teaching eighth-grade language arts, discovering real estate through CBRE, earning her MBA, and finding purpose at TIAA. (23:00) The Future of Affordable Housing Pamela discusses affordable housing as a “purple issue,” the maturation of the sector, and why returns may normalize as the market becomes more efficient. (27:09) The Hot Seat: Books, Family, Hiring, and Mentors Pamela talks about biographies, East of Eden, her family, women’s networks, what she looks for when hiring, and the mentors who have helped shape her career. -- affordable housing, Pamela West, Beyond the Resume, real estate investing, impact investing, institutional capital, TIAA, Nuveen, affordable housing finance, real estate leadership, multifamily investing, career development -- YouTube: https://youtu.be/Xm2py2kNI2o Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotify Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    38 min
  6. Beyond the Resume podcast with AJ Jackson (Investing in the Missing Middle)

    May 18

    Beyond the Resume podcast with AJ Jackson (Investing in the Missing Middle)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, hosts Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker speak with AJ Jackson, President of Leo Impact Capital, about investing in the missing middle through naturally occurring affordable housing, mixed-income communities, and resident-centered operating strategies. AJ explains how Leo Impact Capital focuses on everyday working renters: teachers, first responders, service technicians, clerks, IT workers, and others who often earn too much to qualify for subsidized housing but still struggle to afford market rents in high-opportunity neighborhoods.AJ breaks down Leo’s investment approach, including the role of NOAH preservation, long-term affordability, social connection, rent reporting, credit building, tax abatement, sustainability investments, and partnerships with local nonprofits like The Lotus Campaign. The conversation also explores AJ’s career path from Capitol Hill and GSA to real estate development and impact investing, along with broader reflections on career exploration, mental health, leadership, hiring, mentorship, and why thriving communities cannot afford to lose the middle.Chapters(00:00) Meet AJ Jackson and Leo Impact CapitalAJ introduces Leo Impact Capital and explains the firm’s focus on financial mobility for everyday working renters through real estate investment, strong locations, and social connection.(00:54) Investing in the Missing MiddleAJ defines the “missing middle” renter: people who are over income for public housing support but still financially pressed by rent, transportation, healthcare, student loans, and other costs.(04:21) Solving the Housing CliffLisa connects AJ’s work to the benefits cliff, and AJ explains how mixed-income properties can create flexibility for residents as their income rises.(05:39) Charlotte, Credit Building and Resident ImpactAJ walks through Leo’s Charlotte investment, its partnership with The Lotus Campaign, units reserved for residents at risk of homelessness, and the power of rent reporting to help residents build credit.(11:39) Tax Abatement, Sustainability and NOAH PreservationThe conversation turns to tax abatement, energy audits, capital planning, and why AJ sees naturally occurring affordable housing as a critical but under-recognized part of the housing affordability landscape.(15:36) From Alabama to Real Estate InvestmentAJ reflects on attending the University of Alabama, beginning his career in politics, working at GSA, going to business school, and eventually finding his way into development and impact investing.(20:24) Career Lessons, Flexibility and Mental HealthAJ shares the skills that have shaped his career, including moving between big-picture strategy and small details, knowing where passion and talent intersect, and protecting energy, mood, and mental health.(25:54) Making the Middle InvestableAJ discusses the investment case for NOAH, the challenge of helping investors understand the asset class, and why stable, well-located, affordable housing for middle-income renters remains a major opportunity.(29:20) The Hot Seat: Books, Podcasts and HabitsAJ shares what he listens to, including The Rest Is History, Founders, and MeatEater, while reflecting on the patterns and habits that show up across successful entrepreneurs and leaders.(35:29) Hiring for Writing, Grit and Critical ThinkingAJ explains what he looks for when hiring: strong writing, entrepreneurial drive, hunger for the work, and the ability to think through problems rather than simply chase the “right” answer.(37:19) Mentorship, Purpose and the MiddleAJ closes by reflecting on the mentors who shaped his sense of purpose-driven work, win-win solutions, and why communities need the middle in order to thrive.--AJ Jackson, Leo Impact Capital, missing middle housing, naturally occurring affordable housing, NOAH preservation, impact investing, affordable housing, mixed-income housing, financial mobility

    40 min
  7. Beyond the Resume podcast with Dan Rosen (Real estate, only harder)

    May 11

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Dan Rosen (Real estate, only harder)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, we sit down with Daniel Rosen of Klein Hornig, an affordable housing and community development attorney whose work centers on helping clients structure, finance, preserve, and close complex affordable housing transactions. Dan shares how he found his way into affordable housing law during law school, after discovering a career path that brought together social justice, race, cities, place, policy, and mission-driven legal work. He explains why affordable housing law is often “real estate, harder,” with transactions that require deep knowledge of tax credits, HUD approvals, regulatory structures, multiple funding sources, and highly technical financing tools. The conversation explores how the affordable housing landscape has changed over Dan’s career, especially as projects have become more ambitious, more expensive, and more layered. Dan discusses the growing complexity of deals involving historic rehab, distressed housing redevelopment, mixed-income and mixed-use projects, church properties, office-to-residential conversions, and multi-source financing structures. Chris, Lisa, and Dan also discuss career paths into affordable housing law, the value of being purposeful in professional choices, and why relationship-building matters even in deeply technical legal work. Dan reflects on the difference between working in-house and serving multiple clients through private practice, the importance of closers in affordable housing transactions, and the role of mentors in shaping his career and the DNA of Klein Hornig. The episode closes with Dan’s thoughts on the future of affordable housing, rising development costs, political and policy challenges, AI in legal practice, and the balance between mission, technical expertise, and practical execution. CHAPTERS (02:07) Finding Affordable Housing Law by Accident Dan explains how he stumbled into the field during law school and found a practice that connected his interests in social justice, race, cities, and place. (03:30) “Real Estate, Harder” Dan breaks down what makes affordable housing law different from conventional real estate, including tax credits, HUD regulations, financing structures, and deal complexity. (06:40) Why Deals Keep Getting More Complex The conversation turns to rising costs, layered financing sources, ambitious projects, and why clients are often forced to assemble six, eight, or ten funding sources to close a gap. (08:26) Building a Career in Affordable Housing Law Dan discusses how law students and attorneys can enter the field, whether through affordable housing firms, commercial real estate, tax, government, or mission-driven legal work. (12:03) Relationships Beyond the Desk Chris and Lisa explore Dan’s approach to networking, brand-building, ULI involvement, and why showing up became part of helping grow a successful legal practice. (18:20) Costs, Complexity, and the Industry Outlook Dan reflects on the future of affordable housing, tax credit improvements, political energy around housing, rising per-unit costs, and serious challenges facing nonprofit clients and residents. (28:12) AI, Timekeeping, and Legal Tech Dan shares how Klein Hornig is beginning to explore AI, including AI-assisted timekeeping, search tools, and the potential impact of document review and generation on legal practice. YouTube: https://youtu.be/a4DiHVMRsLY Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotify Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    34 min
  8. Beyond the Resume podcast with Paul Weissman (The raddest financing puzzle)

    May 4

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Paul Weissman (The raddest financing puzzle)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, hosts Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker sit down with Paul Weissman, Senior Managing Director and Head of Affordable Housing Production at Lument, for a wide-ranging conversation on affordable housing finance, career development, and the human side of real estate. Paul explains Lument’s work as a multifamily commercial real estate lender with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and FHA lending capabilities, while also tracing the company’s legacy through Red Capital, Lancaster Pollard, Hunt Real Estate Capital, CharterMac, and Centerline. Paul shares how an unconventional path, from studying foreign languages to living in France, the Soviet Union, and Taiwan, eventually led him into law school, business school, tax credit syndication, bond transactions, and affordable housing finance. His story offers practical career advice for students and emerging professionals interested in real estate, LIHTC, tax-exempt bonds, FHA lending, and multifamily housing. The conversation also dives into why affordable housing deals are more like complex, three-dimensional puzzles than straightforward real estate transactions. Paul discusses the evolving challenges of tax credit pricing, taxable debt, recycled bonds, state subsidies, subordinate financing, and the many public and private stakeholders involved in getting a project across the finish line. The episode closes with reflections on AI in lending, the importance of getting out from behind the desk to see the impact of affordable housing firsthand, the value of mentorship, and why Paul looks for interesting, thoughtful people when hiring. It is a grounded and insightful episode for anyone interested in affordable housing, real estate finance, career pivots, and the people behind mission-driven development. CHAPTERS (03:07) From Foreign Languages to Affordable Housing Paul reflects on studying languages, living abroad, teaching English in Taiwan, and eventually finding his way into law, business school, real estate development, and tax credit work. (07:59) Where Lenders Fit in the Deal Cycle Paul explains how lenders often enter the affordable housing process when developers are applying for bonds, credits, or other financing, while also serving as early-stage consultants for clients. (11:02) Affordable Housing as a Complex Puzzle The conversation explores why affordable housing transactions require comfort with uncertainty, constant problem-solving, and the ability to balance competing sources, uses, stakeholders, and requirements. (18:13) Why Scale Is Hard in Affordable Housing Paul and Chris discuss the growing role of large institutions in affordable housing and why approvals, transaction complexity, and smaller deal sizes make the sector difficult to scale quickly. (20:48) Learning LIHTC From Scratch Paul shares that he entered the field without knowing what a low-income housing tax credit or cap rate was, then built his knowledge through conferences, experts, trial and error, and self-directed learning. (26:27) Seeing the Impact in Person Paul describes the value of visiting affordable housing properties, including watching a Denver project rise from his office window and later seeing the transformation of a major RAD transaction with NYCHA. (29:59) AI, Efficiency, and Better Lending Workflows Paul discusses how AI may help lenders summarize reports and improve efficiency, while emphasizing caution around sensitive information, accuracy, and using AI to support rather than make decisions. --- affordable housing, Lument, Paul Weissman, Beyond the Resume, LIHTC, tax credit equity, FHA lending, Fannie Mae Freddie Mac, multifamily finance, real estate career advice

    42 min

Ratings & Reviews

4.5
out of 5
8 Ratings

About

Co-hosted by industry veterans, Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker, the weekly Beyond the Resume Podcast features interviews with some of the best known real estate experts in the U.S. By exploring how they built their successful careers and the impact they have made to the communities around them we hope to educate and inspire anyone building or thinking of building a career in real estate. Join us as we go Beyond the Resume.

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