Church is Messy

Rick Henderson and Svea Merry
  • 4.6 (19)
  • Christianity
  • Updated Weekly

Church is messy podcast recorded at Autumn Ridge Church in Rochester, MN

  1. 4d ago

    Church Is Messy: Expedition Ready - Before You Hit the Trail

    Technical note: Due to multiple technical difficulties, the video version of this week’s episode is unavailable. We expect the video podcast to premiere with next week’s episode. The audio version is available as usual. In this episode, Rick and Svea launch the new Expedition Ready series by introducing a framework for the spiritual journey. The goal is not to create a formula, ladder, or grading system for faith, but to offer a map that helps people understand how growth with Jesus often unfolds over time. The journey moves through stages of discovering, learning, doing, contemplating, becoming, and loving, with “the wall” marking a significant season of deeper wrestling and growth. They talk about the “ghost rules” people can absorb in church culture—like feeling pressure to fake maturity or appear more put together than they really are—and why authentic spiritual formation requires honesty. Growth is not about managing a Christian image; it is about becoming more like Jesus in ways that reach beneath behavior and into the deeper parts of who we are. Rick and Svea also spend time on “the wall,” the season when old answers may no longer feel sufficient, God may seem distant, or doubt and disillusionment surface. Rather than seeing that as failure, they describe it as a normal and potentially important part of the journey—an invitation into deeper emotional and spiritual maturity. From there, the conversation explores what happens on the other side of the wall: allowing Jesus to bring healing to the inner life, gradually becoming the kind of person who reflects His character more naturally, and ultimately growing toward a life increasingly shaped by love for God and others. Topics discussed in this episode: 00:00 Introducing video podcasting & the "Expedition Ready" fall series launch01:30 The goal of becoming like Jesus — and why it can't be reduced to a formula of "right beliefs, right behaviors"03:04 The overlanding metaphor: preparation, maps, and not traveling alone as parallels to the spiritual journey04:32 The six stages as a map, not a scorecard — not levels, not a ladder, but seasons of movement toward maturity06:35 "Ghost rules" in church culture — the pressure to fake it till you make it, and the call to authenticity11:10 Stages 1–3 walkthrough: Discovering (excitement), Learning (being a sponge), and Doing (serving with rocket-fuel growth)14:00 The Wall: burnout, doubt, disillusionment, and the liberating truth that "it's not a you problem, it's an us thing"18:45 Stages 4–5: Contemplating (gospel healing of hurts, coping patterns, and family-of-origin wounds) and Becoming (reflexive Christlikeness vs. effortful behavior)23:55 AI as a metaphor: the danger of "all product, no process" — shortcuts bypass the growth the spiritual journey requires25:41 Stage 6: Loving — the final stage of true sanctification where love motivates everything, and a call to join small groups for the 8-week series

  2. Sep 23

    Church Is Messy: Vision Weekend 2026 - Legacy

    How does a church honor its history without becoming trapped by it? Following Vision Sunday, Rick and Svea reflect on Autumn Ridge’s nearly 170-year history and the generations of people who have carried the church’s mission forward. While locations, leaders, programs, and methods have changed, one thing has remained at the center: a desire for people to know Jesus. But a long history brings both gifts and challenges. Rick describes the past as something that can become either a foundation or a landlord. Churches can fall into the ditch of nostalgia, allowing cherished experiences and preferences to dictate the future, or the ditch of amnesia, forgetting the wisdom and faithfulness of those who came before. The goal is to cherish the past without trying to recreate it—and to keep asking whether our methods are still serving our purpose. Rick and Svea also talk about the courage required to change, experiment, and even fail. A healthy church can let go of methods that once worked, try something new, learn when it doesn’t work, and keep moving forward. That requires knowing clearly who we are, who we’re becoming, and why we exist. Ultimately, every generation is simply running its leg of the race. The work we do today should honor those who came before us while laying a strong foundation for those who will come next—a church centered on Jesus, committed to spiritual formation, welcoming to people who are curious or skeptical, and prepared to hand the baton forward well. Topics discussed in this episode: 00:00 Intro01:10 Announcing the Video Podcast Launch02:30 Vision Sunday: Annual Reminder of Church Identity04:51 Church History & Founding Pastor Reverend Westcott (1857)08:00 Age Dynamics in Churches (a new concept)13:47 Nostalgia vs. Amnesia: The Two Ditches of Church Longevity19:24 Svea's Marriage Analogy: Different Chapters, Different Beauty25:20 The Grass Valley Group: Locking in on "How" Instead of "Why"35:28 Legacy: What to Leave Behind for the Next Pastor

  3. Sep 16

    Church Is Messy: The End? - Heaven Is Not Enough

    What if heaven is not somewhere we escape to, but the place where God finally makes all things new? In the final conversation of The End? series, Rick and Svea unpack the biblical picture of heaven as a renewed creation—heaven coming to earth when Jesus returns. They talk about what happens when a follower of Jesus dies, why Scripture points toward resurrection and restoration rather than an eternal disembodied existence, and how that changes the way we imagine eternity. They also explore why so many Christians have inherited a picture of heaven that feels disconnected from the physical world, and why a more complete biblical vision gives greater meaning to the ordinary things we do now. Relationships, work, creativity, beauty, justice, care for creation, and service all matter because God cares about His creation and intends to restore it. Rick and Svea close by asking what this hope means for life today. We can grieve honestly without grieving hopelessly. We can trust that the work we do matters. And we can take eternity seriously—not by trying to predict when Jesus will return, but by trusting Him, following Him, and living now as citizens of the kingdom He promises to fully restore. Topics discussed in this episode: 00:00 Intro02:36 What happens when we die before Jesus returns — different views on the intermediate state ("soul sleep" vs. being with Christ immediately)05:25 Heaven isn't clouds and harps — debunking childhood misconceptions about eternity as endless choir practice07:01 The earth will be renewed, not discarded — the biblical case that heaven comes here, restoring the best of creation11:05 Four views of eschatology — Rick recaps historic premillennialism, amillennialism, postmillennialism, and dispensationalism14:22 Historical roots of a distorted view — how chattel slavery, Gnosticism, and the dispensationalist emphasis on destruction shaped the American church's "just go off to heaven" mindset18:21 What will we actually do in heaven? — feasting, work, creativity, building cities, gardening, and even hunting (plus whether we'll look like ourselves)22:25 Living now as citizens of heaven — why restoring creation matters now, not because we can bring heaven to earth, but because the love of Christ compels us24:58 The "now and not yet" — Rick's sports car analogy for why God prioritizes restoring people first, then creation28:55 Three practical takeaways — grieve honestly but not hopelessly, what you do matters, and take eternity seriously (choose Jesus)

  4. Sep 9

    Church Is Messy: The End? - What the Heaven?

    What are we really looking forward to when we think about heaven? Rick and Svea continue the conversation around The End? by focusing on heaven—not as an escape from this life, but as the fulfillment of our deepest longing to be with Jesus. They talk about why even the best things in this life eventually come to an end, why heaven is ultimately about who is there more than what the place is like, and how growing in our relationship with Jesus now can deepen our capacity to enjoy Him forever. The conversation also turns toward suffering and hope. The gospel doesn’t ask us to minimize pain, tidy up grief, or pretend difficult circumstances aren’t real. Instead, it allows us to face suffering honestly while remembering that suffering is not the final chapter. Sometimes Christian community means sitting with someone in the mess—and helping them see the shore when the fog is too thick for them to see it themselves. Rick and Svea close by exploring how we grow our delight in Jesus through knowing Him more deeply, practicing His presence, and living in meaningful relationships with others. In the process, they discover that the conversation naturally lands on Autumn Ridge’s framework for spiritual formation: knowledge, practices, and relationships. Topics discussed in this episode: 01:40 — Book recommendation: Revelation for the Rest of Us by Scott McKnight02:45 — What are you looking forward to? (Rick & Svea share personal answers)04:21 — Vacation grief and the weight of hope in temporary things06:36 — Sabbath rest, Joel Lawrence, and the rest we were made for07:41 — Jesus is the answer, not the place (heaven as being with Him)12:00 — Imagining a day with Jesus physically present13:57 — Will heaven be boring? Meaningful responsibility without toil17:07 — Suffering, escapism, and the gospel's honest approach to pain27:05 — How to grow your capacity for enjoying Jesus (spiritual practices, community, and the formation framework)

  5. Sep 2

    Church is Messy: The End? - Yeah, But When?

    Trying to figure out exactly when Jesus will return can be fascinating—but it can also distract us from the kind of people Jesus is calling us to become right now. In this episode of Church Is Messy, Rick and Svea continue the conversation from Autumn Ridge’s series on the end times. They reflect on church cultures that emphasized decoding prophecy, predicting the rapture, and connecting current events to biblical timelines—and contrast that approach with a simpler question: What does it look like to live faithfully if we really believe Jesus is coming back? Rick and Svea discuss why people are drawn to certainty and secret knowledge, the recurring biblical pattern of self-rule, power, and control, and the danger of combining faith with pursuits of military, economic, cultural, national, or ethnic dominance. Instead, followers of Jesus are called to a very different way of life: motivated by the love of Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit, and lived out within the local church. They also explore how Christian community helps us face fear, suffering, and uncertainty. When life becomes difficult—or even when our worst-case scenario happens—we need people who can remind us what is true, encourage us, and sometimes even “loan” us their courage and faith. Ultimately, the church most prepared for Jesus’ return isn’t the church that has the timeline figured out. It’s the church that looks most like Jesus before he returns. Topics discussed in this episode: 00:00 — Intro and personal updates (Svea recording with strep throat)01:00 — Growing up in end-times prediction culture and family members trying to predict the rapture02:03 — Rick's youth group experiences: "rapture practice" and decoding Revelation as Apache helicopters03:25 — The human desire to predict the end: Gnosticism, secret knowledge, and conspiracy theories05:00 — Don't fight about end times — land wherever you land, but the result should be faithfulness, love, and encouragement08:25 — The wisdom of not knowing when Jesus returns (the "just-in-time husband" analogy with his wife's trip)10:52 — Recognizing patterns: the "golden circle" of self-rule, power/control, and military/economic/cultural might — with religion, nationalism, and ethnicity as superchargers15:11 — The church's golden circle: Christ's love (why), Spirit-filled life (how), local church community (what)18:32 — Perfect love casting out fear: how community diffuses fear, shame, and dread around end-times topics25:50 — "What if the worst happens?" — trusting Jesus remains King, and borrowing courage from church community

  6. Aug 26

    Church Is Messy: Returning King

    Church Is Messy is back for a new season! Rick and Svea begin with a few summer updates before turning to Autumn Ridge’s new message series, The End?—and why conversations about the return of Jesus should lead to preparation, not prediction. They explore several Christian perspectives on the end times, why fear and speculation have shaped so much modern thinking about the subject, and what Scripture actually calls followers of Jesus to do while we wait. Rather than obsessing over charts, dates, and decoding current events, Paul points Christians toward character, community, faith, love, encouragement, and readiness. Rick and Svea also discuss what genuine Christian community looks like when we move beyond convenience and programmed relationships. If our bonds as brothers and sisters in Christ are eternal, how might that change the way we invest in one another now? And what does it mean to “loan our strength” to someone who is weak simply by showing up and reminding them they aren’t alone? Ultimately, thinking seriously about the return of Jesus should help us become more like Jesus today. Topics discussed in this episode: 00:00 — Intro03:11 — Introduction to "The End?" series on end times and the church's approach04:10 — People's anxiety about end times teaching and the ominous series graphic05:15 — John Steer's quote: the return of Christ is for application, not speculation06:01 — Why Rick focused on community and character instead of predictions and charts07:11 — Paul's pastoral approach to the Thessalonians' fear of being left behind08:02 — "Nobody flies standby with Jesus" — living awake, clear-minded, and faithful15:16 — Community and convenience: how churches default to programming for the easiest demographics16:34 — The calorie-counting analogy: individuals and churches both battle the gravitational pull of convenience17:35 — Church bonds as more enduring than family bonds: brothers and sisters in Christ is forever19:50 — The story of a gay friend trying to follow Jesus and the lack of a vision for better community21:58 — What community looks like for singles, widows, and people in the pit — beyond scheduled programs23:18 — Practical steps: turning down convenience and turning up commitment to build each other up25:24 — The armor of faith and love: Paul's twist on military imagery in 1 Thessalonians 528:00 — Your biggest enemy is you: being at war with your own temptations and moral fragility29:20 — Rick's personal story of a fractured friendship and failing to put the other person's needs first31:32 — The lion that is a slain lamb: God flipping our expectations upside down32:24 — Flipping the church upside down: adults investing in kids week after week34:09 — Warning the idle, encouraging the disheartened, helping the weak — giving each person what they need35:32 — Closing vision: fostering beautiful, godly community that lasts for eternity

  7. Jun 10

    Church Is Messy: Church in the Wild - Leader Abuse

    In this season finale of Church Is Messy, Rick and Svea reflect on the close of both the podcast season and Autumn Ridge’s long journey through 1 Corinthians. The conversation centers on 1 Corinthians 16 and Rick’s message about how churches relate to leaders—not as a grievance or self-serving topic, but as a willingness to talk honestly about what the text actually says.  Rick revisits four unhealthy mindsets that can shape how people respond to leaders: strongman Christianity, scoreboard Christianity, pep rally Christianity, and consumerism Christianity. He explains how these mindsets often grow out of fear, insecurity, tribalism, comparison, or the subtle desire to place ourselves at the center. A significant part of the episode focuses on the difference between looking to strong leaders for certainty and learning to trust Jesus with our circumstances. Rick and Svea also spend time unpacking consumerism in the church, especially how easy it is to recognize in others and how difficult it can be to see in ourselves. The conversation then turns toward practical ways to return to a grounded identity in Christ: being honest with ourselves, naming what is true out loud, bringing it to Jesus in prayer, and walking honestly with trusted people who love us and love Jesus. Rick and Svea also touch on submission, leadership, and trust—especially what it means to follow leaders in a broken world while keeping our ultimate allegiance to Jesus. The episode closes with a look ahead. Church Is Messy will take a short summer break and return in August alongside a new series called The End?, which will explore end times questions, where history is headed from a biblical perspective, and what Christians can expect about heaven. Topics discussed in this episode: 00:00 — Intro01:37 — Why Rick Chose to Preach on 1 Corinthians 1607:50 — The Four Dysfunctional Mindsets (Recap) 10:01 — Which Mindsets Are Most Dangerous Today15:58 — Deep Dive: Consumerism Christianity21:41 — Consumerism in Marriage & Relationships23:28 — The Antidotes: Grounding Identity in Christ27:37 — Submission to Leaders (Healthy & Unhealthy34:36 — Upcoming Break & Preview of Next Series

  8. Jun 3

    Church Is Messy: Psalm 58 - Wisdom in Wicked Psalms

    In this episode of Church Is Messy, Rick and Svea reflect on Svea’s recent message from Psalm 58—one of the imprecatory psalms, where God’s people cry out for divine justice against evil and oppression. They talk about why passages like this can feel uncomfortable, violent, or hard to reconcile with Jesus’ command to love our enemies. Svea shares how studying Psalm 58 helped her recover a deeper appreciation for parts of Scripture many people tend to skip over. Rather than seeing these psalms as permission to seek revenge, Rick and Svea explore how they teach us to bring even our darkest, most honest thoughts and emotions to God. The conversation also touches on the difference between honesty and endorsement. The psalms give language for pain, anger, fear, and longing for justice—not so we can nurture revenge, but so we can surrender those desires to God. Rick and Svea discuss how Jesus fulfills these psalms through the cross, where mercy and justice meet, and how followers of Jesus are called to pursue what is right without taking vengeance into their own hands. Ultimately, this episode invites listeners to read difficult parts of the Bible with curiosity, humility, and trust—looking for Jesus even in passages that feel prickly, dark, or unsettling. Topics discussed in this episode: 00:00 — Intro01:58 — Backstory: How Svea Chose This Psalm05:29 — How to Read Difficult / "Prickly" Passages of Scripture13:49 — Honesty With God & the Value of Dark Psalms23:19 — Listener Question: How Are Imprecatory Psalms Fulfilled in Jesus?27:02 — Peter's Story Arc as a Picture of Transformation

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4.6
out of 5
19 Ratings

About

Church is messy podcast recorded at Autumn Ridge Church in Rochester, MN

Information

  • Creator
    Rick Henderson and Svea Merry
  • Years Active
    2022 - 2026
  • Episodes
    153
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2022-2026 Rick Henderson
  • Show Website
    Church is Messy

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