Waking Up Is Not Enough: Flourishing in the Human Space

Polly Young-Eisendrath
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Welcome to Waking Up Is Not Enough: Flourishing in the Human Space! When you peek into the cosmic unity of existence and feel the love and inspiration of awakening, what happens next? Whether it’s through meditation, spiritual practice, Near-Death Experience (NDE), ingesting a mind-altering substance, or being born again, you don’t get a map for improving your messy life. In this podcast, Polly Young-Eisendrath and Michael Berger draw on expertise in science, psychology, adult development, psychedelics, NDEs, dreams, and Buddhist practice in conversations about compassion, resilience, responsibility, kindness, and development after awakening. You will learn how to chart a new path for flourishing in the human space in which waking up is important, but not enough, and growing up is never finished.

  1. FEB 12

    Waking Up is Not Enough Episode 35 - The Myth of the Ethical Machine: Waking Up in the Age of AI” with B. Scot Rousse

    As AI becomes more integrated into our lives, and calls grow louder for ethical guardrails on its development, whose ethics are we talking about? Polly Young-Eisendrath and Michael Berger join B. Scot Rousse to talk about how AI amplifies long-standing human vulnerabilities—our hunger for mastery, our blindness to our own defenses, and our willingness to be seduced by intelligence or authority that appears all-knowing. Together, we explore what we can do as individuals and communities to wake up and respond to what is happening. This episode challenges the complacency that we can leave these concerns to tech companies and corporations that embrace no moral or ethical commitments, inviting listeners to reconsider what genuine responsibility in the age of AI actually requires. B. Scot Rousse is the Director of Research for Pluralistic Networks, Inc., an educational and professional development company based in Oakland, CA. He received his Ph.D. from Northwestern University and a B.A. at Berkeley. His recent work has appeared in Continental Philosophy Review, European Journal of Philosophy, Communications of the ACM, The Cambridge Heidegger Lexicon, and a volume on Teaching and Learning in Adult Skill Acquisition.

    1h 50m

  2. 09/19/2025

    Waking Up is Not Enough Episode 34 - Why Protecting Free Speech Matters—and What’s Happening Now in Europe a Conversation w/ Diana Johnstone

    In this timely and eye-opening episode, American journalist Diana Johnstone joins us to unpack recent restrictions on free speech in Germany and France. She connects these developments to broader global dynamics, including Israel, Ukraine, NATO, and the shifting role of the U.S. in Europe and the Middle East. Diana also reflects on the transformation of the European political left over the past 25 years, offering context that is rarely heard in mainstream discussions. Mike and I press into what’s most ominous on the horizon for European and U.S. politics, and Diana’s insights are—as always—deeply informed and refreshingly candid. Whether you’re familiar with Diana Johnstone’s work or encountering her voice for the first time, this is a must-listen conversation.

    1h 14m

  3. 07/09/2025

    Waking Up is Not Enough Episode 33 - Are You Coddling, Cancelling or Speaking Freely? A Conversation with Greg Lukianoff

    If you want to learn more about how to speak freely and authentically without coddling or cancelling others, go to www.realdialogue.org and sign up for one of our online courses. Some of the courses carry APA-approved continuing education credits for mental health professionals and others are available just for self-study. Expand your skills and self-awareness in support of dialogue and mindfulness. We are thrilled to be speaking with Greg Lukianoff in this wide-ranging and timely conversation. Greg Lukianoff is an attorney, a New York Times bestselling author, and the president and CEO of FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. Greg has been one of the leading voices defending free speech on college campuses and beyond. His work, including two co-authored books – with Jonathon Haidt,  “The Coddling of the American Mind” and with Rikki Schlott, “The Cancelling of the American Mind” --  has sparked nationwide conversations about the future of open dialogue and civil liberties on college campuses. Together we converse about how the erosion of free speech at universities and in media threatens not only democratic institutions but also personal development, intellectual resilience, and collective well-being. We highlight the psychological and educational costs of censorship, cancel culture, and ideological conformity, while offering a passionate defense of viewpoint diversity, open dialogue, and the messy but vital pursuit of truth. Learning how to disagree in healthy conflict, while speaking for yourself and listening accurately, is more urgent than ever.

    1h 14m

  4. 06/18/2025

    Waking Up is Not Enough Episode 32 - Original Love: A Conversation with Zen Teacher and Poet Henry Shukman

    Why We Should Be at Ease With Ourselves and What Gets in the Way of It?  Henry Shuman is a poet, author, and meditation teacher who has guided thousands of students from around the world in mindfulness and awakening practices. Henry is a Zen master in the Sanbo Zen lineage and the emeritus spiritual director at Mountain Cloud Zen Center in Sante Fe, New Mexico. He is the author of two books about meditation and his own experiences: One Blade of Grass: Finding the Old Road of the Heart and the book we will be talking about today, Original Love: The Four Inns on the Path to Awakening. Henry is also the cofounder of The Way meditation app and the founder of the Original Love meditation program. In addition to his being an award-winning author and having best-selling books of poetry and fiction, Henry has graduate degrees from Cambridge University and St. Andrews University In this conversation, Henry and Polly engage in questions and inquiries about what is necessary for people to engage in a path of awakening. They talk about what Henry means by “original love,” the nature of love itself, the nature of awakening, and why sometimes love and awakening do not seem to be aligned. Further they talk about the value of Zen training and what it means to be a Zen master, as well as why Henry’s lineage in Zen is uniquely aimed at helping Westerners or those unacquainted with Zen. And finally, most important, they talk about why and how people can be “confident” if they are on the path of awakening.

    1h 16m

  5. 05/21/2025

    Waking Up is Not Enough Episode 31 - Human Consciousness is Self-Consciousness: A Conversation with an Authority on Human Consciousness: Dr. Michael Lewis (Part 2)

    You may be confused about the word “consciousness” because it is used broadly to mean anything that has awareness of any kind — from a fungus to a dolphin to a human being. Unfortunately, this has been the way that we speak with each other about consciousness since Darwin came onto the scene. Consequently, as humans we do not know what our unique features of consciousness are nor how they are related to our emotional development and life. You may know the word “ego,” but you probably do not know how it relates to your self-conscious emotions, like shame or guilt, or even that you have self-conscious emotions. In this podcast, you will find out precisely the meaning of how humans are conscious because you will hear a conversation with Dr. Michael Lewis, an expert on human consciousness.   The psychologist Dr. Michael Lewis from Rutgers University is famous for providing the exact test and the precise investigation of the birth of self-consciousness in humans. We are the only organism here on earth that is aware of its awareness in such a way that we abstract and theorize our own identities. Then, of course, we fight about them and get polarized. In this informative conversation, Dr. Lewis talks with Polly and Mike about the beginnings and developments of human consciousness. Dr. Lewis is the foremost researcher on the self-conscious or social emotions in the United States, having spent 65 years investigating them in his laboratory at Rutgers University.  Michael Lewis PhD is University Distinguished Professor of Pediatrics and Psychiatry and Director of the Institute for the Study of Child Development at the Rutgers University Robert Wood Johnson Medical School. He is also Professor of Psychology, Education, and Biomedical Engineering at Rutgers. Dr. Lewis is a Fellow of the New York Academy of Sciences, the American Psychological Association, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the Japan Society for the Promotion of Science.  He is one of the most prominent social scientists in the United States and is a recipient of the Urie Bronfenbrenner Award for Lifetime Contribution to Developmental Psychology (American Psychological Association) and the Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award in Child Development from the Society for Research in Child Development.

    49 min
  6. Waking Up is Not Enough Episode 30 - Human Consciousness is Self-Consciousness: A Conversation with an Authority on Human Consciousness: Dr. Michael Lewis (Part 1)

    03/25/2025

    Waking Up is Not Enough Episode 30 - Human Consciousness is Self-Consciousness: A Conversation with an Authority on Human Consciousness: Dr. Michael Lewis (Part 1)

    You may be confused about the word “consciousness” because it is used broadly to mean anything that has awareness of any kind — from a fungus to a dolphin to a human being. Unfortunately, this has been the way that we speak with each other about consciousness since Darwin came onto the scene. Consequently, as humans we do not know what our unique features of consciousness are nor how they are related to our emotional development and life. You may know the word “ego,” but you probably do not know how it relates to your self-conscious emotions, like shame or guilt, or even that you have self-conscious emotions. In this podcast, you will find out precisely the meaning of how humans are conscious because you will hear a conversation with Dr. Michael Lewis, an expert on human consciousness. The psychologist Dr. Michael Lewis from Rutgers University is famous for providing the exact test and the precise investigation of the birth of self-consciousness in humans. We are the only organism here on earth that is aware of its awareness in such a way that we abstract and theorize our own identities. Then, of course, we fight about them and get polarized. In this informative conversation, Dr. Lewis talks with Polly and Mike about the beginnings and developments of human consciousness. Dr. Lewis is the foremost researcher on the self-conscious or social emotions in the United States, having spent 65 years investigating them in his laboratory at Rutgers University.  Michael Lewis PhD is University Distinguished Professor of Pediatrics and Psychiatry and Director of the Institute for the Study of Child Development at the Rutgers University Robert Wood Johnson Medical School. He is also Professor of Psychology, Education, and Biomedical Engineering at Rutgers. Dr. Lewis is a Fellow of the New York Academy of Sciences, the American Psychological Association, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the Japan Society for the Promotion of Science.  He is one of the most prominent social scientists in the United States and is a recipient of the Urie Bronfenbrenner Award for Lifetime Contribution to Developmental Psychology (American Psychological Association) and the Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award in Child Development from the Society for Research in Child Development.

    48 min

  7. 02/26/2025

    Waking Up is Not Enough Episode 29 - What Is the Point? A Conversation with Zen Master Barbara Rhodes About The Primary Point of Spiritual Practice

    Most spiritual practice, especially Zen, emphasizes a kind of engaged curiosity – remaining aware of the present moment. Why? What can we get from this kind of awareness that we cannot get from just enjoying a warm brownie? How can you drop your desire to control what’s going on in yourself and around you and what might happen if you did?  In this sometimes light-hearted and sometimes serious conversation, Mike, Polly and Barbara – who goes by the name Bobby – tumble onto some extraordinary topics. For example, consider the possibility that good and evil, light and dark, are held together by love, by one great big hug. Bobby had that experience. She considers Zen to be the most down-to-earth way to live, in the present moment, making the best of everything. Why doesn’t everyone do it? Barbara Rhodes, whose Buddhist title is Zen Master SoengHyang, is Zen Master of the Kwan Um School of Zen. In 1992, she received dharma transmission from Seung Sahn, an eminent Korean Zen Master. She is also a hospice nurse who has served in that role for many years.  Her new book Composting Our Karma: Turning Confusion into Lessons for Awakening Our Innate Wisdom came out with Shambhala Publications in 2024. It was edited by Elizabeth Goldstein, a psychologist and Zen student from Burlington, Vermont.

    1h 9m

  8. 01/23/2025

    Waking Up is Not Enough Episode 28 - A Non-Dual Approach to the Philosophy of Quantum Theory: A Conversation with Dean Rickles PhD (Part 2)

    Support the podcast: https://gofund.me/621e367c  Dr. Dean Rickles and Dr. Harald Atmanspacher have together developed a new philosophical model called “dual-aspect monism.” This contemporary philosophy of physics attempts to transcend the hegemony of materialism in responding to observer phenomena and other puzzles inherited from Quantum Theory. In this fascinating conversation, Polly and Mike talk with Dean about his own awakening, why his theory steps towards non-duality and how he imagines Quantum Theory can change the way we see our agency, responsibility and relationship to the world. This conversation ranges from Carl Jung’s theory of synchronicity to how music is like immaterial layers of consciousness and many more topics.

    54 min
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About

Welcome to Waking Up Is Not Enough: Flourishing in the Human Space! When you peek into the cosmic unity of existence and feel the love and inspiration of awakening, what happens next? Whether it’s through meditation, spiritual practice, Near-Death Experience (NDE), ingesting a mind-altering substance, or being born again, you don’t get a map for improving your messy life. In this podcast, Polly Young-Eisendrath and Michael Berger draw on expertise in science, psychology, adult development, psychedelics, NDEs, dreams, and Buddhist practice in conversations about compassion, resilience, responsibility, kindness, and development after awakening. You will learn how to chart a new path for flourishing in the human space in which waking up is important, but not enough, and growing up is never finished.

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