Chain of Learning: Leadership Strategies for Transforming Culture, Developing People, and Getting Results

Katie Anderson
  • 5.0 (31)
  • Management
  • Updated Biweekly

Chain of Learning® is the leadership podcast for leaders and change practitioners who believe that people, not tools, are the foundation of lasting results. If you're working to transform your organization's culture, develop leaders at every level, and build teams that are capable, confident, and empowered to solve problems and innovate, this podcast is for you. Hosted by Katie Anderson, award-winning author of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" and globally recognized expert in people-centered leadership, Chain of Learning explores how leaders break free from the Doer Trap™, and create the conditions in their organization for success and build a vibrant culture where impact is exponential. Each biweekly episode offers practical insights, reflective questions, and real-world examples to help you: - Develop leaders at scale, not just one at a time - Build high-performing cultures of continuous learning, grounded in psychological safety, trust, and empowerment, that thrive and grow - Lead culture transformation and change leadership with intention - Strengthen coaching culture, problem-solving, and leadership development across your organization - Move from managers who focus on outcomes to leaders who develop people, improve performance, and get results Grounded in human-centered leadership and adult learning practices, and informed by principles of the Toyota Way, Lean thinking, and operational excellence, Chain of Learning features conversations with influential thinkers and leaders shaping the future of leadership at scale and organizational learning. Past guests include Carol Dweck, Michael Bungay Stanier, Rich Sheridan, Barry O'Reilly, Steve Spear, Jim Womack, Gene Kim, and Larry Culp. Subscribe and follow Chain of Learning® to deepen your impact. Share this podcast with your colleagues, fellow change leaders, and friends so we can strengthen our Chain of Learning together. Join the conversation: ChainOfLearning.com Katie Anderson’s website: KBJAnderson.com Connect with Katie: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Read Katie's Shingo Publication Award-winning book: LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.com Download the KATALYST™ Change Leader Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/Katalyst Popular Episode Topics Include: Leadership Development, Developing Leaders at Scale, The Doer Trap, Coaching Culture, Building a Culture of Learning, Culture Transformation, Change Leadership, Leading Change, Change Readiness, Change Adoption, Stakeholder Engagement, Organizational Change, Lean Leadership, Lean Thinking, Operational Excellence, Toyota Way, Toyota Leadership, People-Centered Leadership, Psychological Safety, Building Trust, Leadership Coaching, Break the Telling Habit, Leader as Coach, Continuous Improvement, Kaizen, Organizational Learning, Problem-Solving Culture, Developing People, High-Performing Teams, Learning Organization, Executive Leadership, Strategic Alignment, Leading Without Authority, Influence, Leading Through Influence, Leadership Identity, Gemba Leadership, A3 Thinking, PDCA, Growth Mindset, Leader Development, Japan Leadership Experience, Learning to Lead Leading to Learn, Leadership Podcast

  1. Jul 22

    80| Bad News First: How a Leader's Response Builds a Culture of Learning [with Isao Yoshino]

    Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ How many problems are actually visible in your organization? Research shows senior leaders see just 4%. The other 96% stay hidden — invisible, yet still there. And some aren't even recognized by employees as problems anymore, because they have become the norm. We all say we want psychological safety. But you don't get it by saying you want it. People-centered leadership is about creating conditions for people to speak up and highlight issues by how you, and leaders across your system, respond. Recorded live with a group of global leaders participating in my Japan Leadership Experience in May 2026, this special episode celebrates the sixth anniversary of Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. You'll hear Isao Yoshino, a 40-year Toyota leader and the subject of my book, reflect on three of the book's most talked-about stories. These examples bring two of Toyota's mottos to life, "bad news first" and "no problem is a problem," and show why a leader's response is what turns problems into a culture of improvement: How his manager's response to a huge paint-shop mistake in his first months at Toyota shaped how he saw a leader's roleHow andon — signaling a problem and stopping the line — changed the culture at NUMMIHow he found the courage to highlight his failing water ski boat business to President Fujio ChoWhether on the front line or in the boardroom, creating the conditions where bad news comes first, and support follows, is what builds a culture of excellence. You’ll Learn: Why a leader's response to a mistake is fundamental to effective leadership and matters more than the mistake itselfThe two actions behind a bad-news-first culture: respond down to help, not blame, and signal up when something's off courseWhy andon is a leadership practice, not just a factory signal, that works from the shop floor to the executive suiteWhat the NUMMI turnaround shows about culture change: people adopt a better way when they discover it, not when they're toldWhy "thank you for this mistake" is the keystone move for building psychological safetyABOUT MY GUEST: Isao Yoshino spent forty years at Toyota, from the late 1960s to the early 2000s, where he helped shape the people-centered learning culture the company is known for today. He was a key leader in the Kan-Pro senior-management development program and led the training of the American managers at NUMMI, the Toyota-GM joint venture, where he hired John Shook. He is the subject of Katie Anderson's Shingo Publication Award-winning book, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/80Order your copy of Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn: LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonSubscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantripTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:02:18 Andon: Why a leader's response matters 03:16 The paint mistake that shaped Mr. Yoshino's leadership 05:28 Why Mr. Yoshino was thanked for his mistake 09:34 The leadership lesson that lasted 40 years 11:22 Why Toyota starts every leader on the front line 12:18 Inside the early days of NUMMI 17:13 Why workers were afraid to stop the line 23:34 What changed the culture at NUMMI 24:40 Why leaders only see 4% of problems 25:16 Responding down instead of blaming 25:50 Asking for help at the leadership level 28:43 Why President Cho flew to a failing business 34:17 The power of bad news first 35:54 Mr. Yoshino's biggest leadership regret 38:19 When doing it yourself becomes the problem 39:05 The response that creates culture 40:28 The two behaviors every leader needs 42:02 Two questions to reflect on this week Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/Purchase a copy of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" or gift a copy to your team: http://learningtoleadleadingtolearn.com/

  2. Jul 8

    79| Build Powerful People: Why Transformation Starts with Your Own [with Gary Peterson]

    Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ Efficiency and cost savings aren't what makes operational excellence last. People are. The leaders who create enduring, high-performing organizations are after something beyond business results. They want a company where people end the day more capable, more confident, more energized than when it began. That's the difference between a workplace that wears people down and one that builds powerful people. Gary Peterson spent more than 30 years building that kind of culture of continuous improvement at OC Tanner. But the hardest part wasn't creating the systems or processes to get better outcomes. It was his own transformation — coming to see how, without meaning to, he'd become the leader getting in his people's way. Put people first, and the results follow.  And the deepest transformation you'll ever lead is your own. You’ll Learn: Why operational excellence only lasts when leaders focus on building people, not just cutting costs and eliminating wasteWhy the best leaders make an identity shift from being the expert with every answer to creating the conditions for others to solve problemsWhat it takes to move managers from enforcers to coaches and make continuous improvement something your team never fears, even as roles and headcount shiftHow to influence real organizational change when you have no authority to make anyone followWhy so many leaders give up on culture change too soon, and how long it really takesABOUT MY GUEST: Gary Peterson spent more than 30 years at OC Tanner, where he held leadership roles across manufacturing, marketing, and operations, most recently as Executive Vice President of Supply Chain and Manufacturing. He led the people-first transformation that earned OC Tanner the Shingo Prize and made it one of the few companies Toyota holds up as a global showcase for its system outside automotive. Gary is an Association for Manufacturing Excellence Hall of Fame inductee. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/79 Connect with Gary Peterson: linkedin.com/in/garypeterson Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join me on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantripTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:44 Why Toyota saw something different at OC Tanner 05:02 The real purpose of operational excellence 07:19 How Gary knew the culture was changing 09:00 Creating people who change the world 12:13 The outcome every leader should want 13:07 Two pillars that shaped the journey 14:26 Breaking a culture of fear and control 15:35 The five-minute habit that changed everything 17:15 Redefining what it means to be a manager 19:12 Why transformation takes longer than you think 20:05 What to do when leaders don't support the change 22:26 The experiment that almost got shut down 24:19 Helping managers make the coaching shift 25:23 When people outgrow their leaders 28:28 Why improvement should never threaten jobs 30:23 The manager who couldn't stop yelling 32:23 The leadership habit that destroys ownership 35:35 Becoming the leader you never wanted to be 37:00 The habit that was holding people back 38:01 The executive behavior that shuts people down 40:07 Proving your worth vs. creating conditions 45:37 Showing results isn't the same as showing people 49:53 Where transformation really begins 51:16 The question every leader should ask about their people 53:34 When helping starts limiting growth 55:14 The shift that made everything else possible Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/Purchase a copy of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" or gift a copy to your team: http://learningtoleadleadingtolearn.com/

  3. Jun 24

    78| Strategy Isn't Enough: 9 Practices to Help Your Team Meet the Moment [with Karina Mangu-Ward]

    Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ Have you poured months into a strategy your team couldn't bring to life? Or watched capable people work harder than ever, and still struggle to pull together as a team? High performance isn't about a better strategy, more talent, or longer hours. It's about how your team works together, every single day. Karina Mangu-Ward, author of Teams That Meet the Moment, has spent more than a decade helping complex organizations redesign the messy day-to-day of how people actually get things done together. Her belief: good everyday teaming habits are both good for people and good for results. You don't have to choose between them. Making this real doesn't require a reinvention. You just need the right structure and the intention to show up differently. In this episode, Karina shares simple, tangible practices you can use in your very next meeting or strategic project. You’ll Learn: The three lies leaders tell themselves about teamwork, and why believing them holds your team backHow the framework of the "Even Over" ends the swirl when your team is stuck choosing between two competing optionsWhy creating a "Safe to Try" process gets a team unstuck when you're chasing consensus and certaintyWhat a steady team cadence unlocks when everything around you feels like an emergencyThe instinct nearly every high performer has to unlearn before they can build a team that thrivesABOUT MY GUEST:Karina Mangu-Ward is a partner at August Public, an organizational change consultancy that helps large, complex organizations build more human-centered ways of working, whose clients include PepsiCo, Planned Parenthood, and Sundance. She's the author of Teams That Meet the Moment: 9 Practices for Unlocking Performance and Growth in Uncertain Times. Karina's passion is helping groups navigate complexity, gain insight, and unlock highly complex challenges. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/78 Connect with Karina: linkedin.com/in/karina-mangu-ward Purchase a copy of Karina's book: Teams That Meet the MomentLearn more about Karina’s company: aug.co Take the Team assessment: assessment.aug.co Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:01 Why great strategy still fails04:13 The hustle culture myth that's burning teams out05:20 Everyday habits drive extraordinary teams07:11 Meeting the moment in uncertain times09:13 The "Safe to Try" mindset that breaks gridlock11:18 Setting guardrails without limiting innovation12:06 Why small bets outperform big risks13:29 Unlearning the need to have the answer15:17 Why sticky practices beat complicated frameworks17:16 Simple retrospectives that strengthen learning20:19 The surprising cost of treating everything like an emergency22:09 Using "Even Over" to make better trade-offs25:28 Intention over reaction in decision-making30:32 When perfection becomes procrastination31:53 Why working in public accelerates learning34:22 The power of stories over instruction37:08 Intention + practice = better leadership39:14 What trade-off do you need to make? Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/Purchase a copy of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" or gift a copy to your team: http://learningtoleadleadingtolearn.com/

  4. Jun 10

    77| Lead with Joy: A Business Strategy for Success [with Rich Sheridan]

    Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ Joy isn't a perk. It's a business strategy. Have you ever wondered whether work has to feel this hard? Whether the team you've built can actually function without you? Whether there's a way to lead that doesn't burn you — or your people — out? Rich Sheridan built Menlo Innovations around one bold idea: ending human suffering in the workplace. The result is a company where joy isn't a slogan. It's how things actually get done. It's a place built on collaboration, human energy, and pride in what people create together. Joy isn't constant happiness. It's the long arc of meaning and contribution alongside people who care. And it becomes possible the moment you stop being the center of every problem and start creating the conditions for ownership, continuous learning, and yes, joy. You don't have to change the world. You just have to change your world. You’ll Learn: The mistake most leaders make about mistakes, and why more mistakes can get you ahead fasterWhy what looks like a questionable decision from below makes sense from aboveThe difference between joy and happiness, and why most leaders are chasing the wrong thingWhy running a small experiment will move you further than creating the perfect planWhat it really takes to build a company designed to last a hundred yearsABOUT MY GUEST:Rich Sheridan is the co-founder, CEO, and Chief Storyteller of Menlo Innovations, a software development and consulting firm known for its people-centered culture and focus on joy in the workplace. He is the author of Joy, Inc. and Chief Joy Officer and was inducted into the Shingo Academy in 2022 for his contributions to organizational excellence. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/77Connect with Rich Sheridan: linkedin.com/in/menloprezFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonSubscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantripPurchase a copy of Rich's books: Joy, Inc. and Chief Joy OfficerLearn more about Menlo Innovations: menloinnovations.comTugboat Institute: tugboatinstitute.comTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:02:37 When work no longer feels sustainable05:26 The moment Rich realized the problem wasn't technology07:27 What an 8-year-old noticed about leadership08:23 Why hero-based organizations scale through exhaustion09:39 When caring becomes carrying12:21 The codependency leaders develop with crises14:09 What joy at work actually means17:13 Working with pride and delighting customers19:17 Why human energy is a leadership responsibility21:00 What's the cost of not having joy?23:28 From constant firefighting to two emergencies in 25 years25:24 Joy vs. happiness: What's the difference?27:02 Why joy isn't happiness every day32:17 The phrase that keeps Menlo moving forward 34:15 The leadership lesson Rich learned from flying40:39 Why Menlo isn't chasing exponential growth43:02 The book that changed Rich's career45:18 Why crisis practices work when there isn't a crisis47:28 Why your system keeps producing the same results49:38 The shift from carrying to creating conditions for change leadership51:46 Why stepping in can hold people back Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/Purchase a copy of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" or gift a copy to your team: http://learningtoleadleadingtolearn.com/

  5. May 27

    76 | What Is the Purpose of Kaizen? John Shook Answers Your Questions (Part 3 of 3)

    Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ What does it really take to sustain a culture of continuous improvement –  through pressure for results, across generations, and into an era of AI? In this final episode of my three-part series with John Shook, one of the most influential leaders and thinkers in the global lean community, we turned to the questions on your mind.  Before we sat down to record, I asked listeners to submit your questions. We cover four of them specifically here, though many others were addressed in Parts 1 and 2, and together they highlight the tensions change leaders and executives face every day. At the end, as we promised in Part 2, John shares his parting reflections and advice for all of us leading transformation to create people-centered learning cultures. It’s not just what we should stop doing, it’s what we need to continue. Starting with ourselves. If you haven't listened to episodes 74 and 75 yet, start there first as you won’t want to miss hearing this conversation in full. You'll Learn: Why leaders should be patient for results but impatient for actionWhy getting to the assumptions that underlie your principles and values is where the real work of culture change beginsHow aligning around the real problem to solve helps close the gap across generations and perspectivesWhat the original intention of jidoka — separating machine work from human work — can teach us about navigating AI and keeping technology in service of peopleThe real purpose of kaizen and continuous improvementABOUT MY GUEST:John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application.IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/76Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Purchase a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: https://kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead/ TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:28 [Listener Question] How do you balance patience with action? 04:06 Avoiding solution jumping and analysis paralysis 05:20 [Listener Question] What will matter most for the next generation of organizations? 07:21 Why underlying assumptions matter more than artifacts 08:28 The deeper level of hansei and reflection 08:53 [Listener Question] How do you bridge generations without slowing improvement? 10:43 Quick PDCA vs. long-cycle learning 11:23 Aligning people around shared purpose 13:56 [Listener Question] In our age of AI, how do we stay true to jidoka's original intent, separating machine work from human work? 14:12 AI, jidoka, and protecting human work 15:23 Four questions to navigate uncertainty 16:17 Why respect for people still matters in AI 17:15 Jidoka beyond “automation with a human touch” 18:54 Curiosity, experiments, and learning with AI 19:30 The promise and risk of AI thinking for us 22:08 PDCA beyond engineering and problem solving 25:39 The purpose of kaizen is to do more kaizen 26:18 Creating conditions for people to think and grow 27:00 Shifting from leading change to creating conditions Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/Purchase a copy of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" or gift a copy to your team: http://learningtoleadleadingtolearn.com/

  6. May 20

    75 | The Human Side of Lean: John Shook on Building Systems That Last (Part 2 of 3)

    Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ Lean has always been about people. We just kept reaching for the tools, without understanding the human purpose behind them. In part two of my three-part conversation with John Shook, we go behind the scenes of Toyota's culture and leadership — sharing stories of the system-building leaders who actually made it what it is, and exploring what it really means to lead people-centered change. John shares behind-the-scenes reflections from his time inside Toyota that you might not have heard before. Drawing on his direct experience in the company and our shared experiences living and working in Japan and globally, we explore a critical feature that is often missed: lean has always been a socio-technical system. The tools only work when we understand the deeper human purpose behind them. In this episode, we talk about the people who actually built Toyota's culture, what John learned from his two very different bosses — including Isao Yoshino, the subject of my book “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn” — and what happens when we lose sight of the human purpose inside the tools we practice every day. In the previous episode, John offered a powerful reframe on lean's impact — and what question we should really be asking as change leaders. If you haven't listened to episode 74 yet, hit pause and start there first — then come back to this one to pick up where we left off. You'll Learn: Inside stories of how Toyota's culture was built and the system builders behind itWhat John learned from his very different bosses inside Toyota and how their styles shaped his own leadershipWhether you are a lean “mechanic” or “social worker” and what your answer reveals about your leadershipWhy every lean tool is already socio-technical — kanban, standardized work, A3, andon — and what we lost when we introduced them as primarily technicalThe concept of motainai — waste as a moral failure, not just a technical one — and why this matters for how you leadABOUT MY GUEST:John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/75Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Purchase a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:04 Why changing culture is harder than copying systems 04:05 John’s question that still drives him: Why Toyota? 05:10 How John found his way into Toyota and NUMMI 06:15 Why Toyota endured while other Japanese companies faded 07:10 Short-term leaders vs. long-term system builders 08:15 The crisis that shaped Toyota’s future direction 10:05 John’s experience learning from very different Toyota leaders 11:15 Why conflicting feedback accelerated John’s learning 12:10 Bringing your own thinking into the A3 process 13:15 Different cultures inside Toyota and how they shaped leadership 14:10 Mr. Cho’s powerful way of teaching through stories 16:10 Katie’s lion story and breaking the telling habit 17:15 Adapting your leadership approach to the situation 19:15 Reading both the technical and social sides of change 20:20 TPS as a way to expose weaknesses and accelerate growth 21:45 Are you a lean mechanic or a lean social worker? 22:50 Identifying your leadership bias and growth edge 24:05 Why process improvement and OD teams should work together 27:10 Scientific thinking, humanism, and ethics in Toyota leadership 28:55 Eliminating waste as more than a technical exercise 30:05 Mottainai and the deeper meaning of waste 32:25 Why lean tools were always socio-technical 33:40 Kanban, standardized work, and the human side of lean 35:10 The A3 as more than a problem-solving tool 37:35 The most common failure mode in lean transformations 38:30 When lean becomes the goal instead of the means 39:30 Why lean isn’t just for executives 40:35 Improving work at every level of the organization 41:40 Why empowerment without support falls apart 42:20 The Andon system as a model for real support 43:45 Where do you need to grow: technical or human? Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/Purchase a copy of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" or gift a copy to your team: http://learningtoleadleadingtolearn.com/

  7. May 13

    74 | What Problem Are We Solving? John Shook Reflects: Has Lean Failed? (Part 1 of 3)

    Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ Has lean really failed? That question sparked one of the most listened-to conversations in the history of this podcast — my two-part series with Jim Womack in episodes 37 and 38. When I sat down with John Shook — one of the most influential thought leaders and practitioners in the global lean and continuous improvement community — we explored a different angle. John's perspective isn't a rebuttal. It's a reframe. A counterpoint to the question itself. John asks: what problem are we really trying to solve? His answer unfolds across three episodes — the first ever three-part series on Chain of Learning. And I think it will change how you think about your own impact as a change leader. You’ll Learn: Why the question "how many lean enterprises have we created?" may be leading us in the wrong direction — and what we should ask insteadThe difference between "command and control" and what John calls "command and abandon" — and which one you're more likely doingWhy the key question in problem-solving is not "is this accurate?" but "is this useful?"How to recognize your span of influence and build systems at the right level that help people think, learn, and take ownershipWhy purpose → work → capability is the right sequence — and why most leaders start in the wrong placeABOUT MY GUEST:John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/74Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Grab a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:00 Why John Shook believes we may be asking the wrong question about lean 05:25 Why change leadership always starts with changing yourself 06:40 The tension between influencing others and trying to control them 08:15 What a people-centered learning culture actually looks like in practice 09:05 Why John avoids lean jargon and starts with the problem instead 10:00 The Toyota question that shaped John’s thinking: “What problem are you trying to solve?” 11:15 Why learning only matters when it’s grounded in the work 12:30 Toyota’s “attitude toward learning” and why it changes everything 15:05 Why leaders must create the environment for learning and problem-solving 16:00 How organizations drift into “big company disease” 17:05 Why purpose → work → capability is the sequence most leaders miss 18:15 The risk of starting culture change with leadership behaviors alone 19:20 Why focusing on the work reveals what’s really blocking change 21:00 Why John sees more “command and abandon” than command and control 23:20 Focusing on your span of influence instead of waiting for senior leaders 27:15 How every person at work already has “problem consciousness” 29:00 The surprising truth about who is most frustrated in organizations 32:15 Building systems at your level that create ownership and capability 33:20 Why modeling the behavior matters more than pushing harder 36:15 Why sustainable change starts with how you show up each day Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/Purchase a copy of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" or gift a copy to your team: http://learningtoleadleadingtolearn.com/

  8. Apr 29

    73 | Small Steps, Leading with Heart: How Transformation Sustains [with Richard Koch]

    Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ The way you’re leading transformation might be getting in the way of the culture you’re trying to build. As change leaders and practitioners, we care about results. But in that focus, it’s easy to stay on the outer work—processes, metrics, systems—and underestimate the inner work – our mindset, behaviors, and relationships – that actually moves people. Our passion can unintentionally pull us away from creating the conditions for learning, alignment, and growth, and taking ownership back by stepping in to do, to solve, and to own the work. To explore this, I’m joined by Richard Koch, who has spent 25+ years leading change inside large, complex global organizations—from frontline improvement to system-level transformation. We’re connected by a shared belief: sustainable transformation doesn’t come from pushing harder. It comes from creating the conditions for people to be successful. In this conversation, Richard shares what he’s learned from being inside that tension including why the way many organizations deploy improvement teams can unintentionally prevent the problem-solving ownership they’re trying to build. You’ll Learn: Why daily work and small steps are where long-term change is actually builtHow separating leadership development and continuous improvement creates confusion—and weakens ownershipWhere improvement teams unintentionally take over the work and limit capability growthWhat it looks like to support leaders in owning change without stepping in to solve itWhy the leader must be at the center of transformation—and what changes when that responsibility is heldABOUT MY GUEST: Richard H. Koch is Managing Director of Serofia and works with leaders who want to create meaningful progress for people, performance, and the future they are helping to shape. Drawing on more than 25 years of international experience across strategy, leadership, operational excellence, innovation, and transformation, he brings together coaching, training, and consulting in a way that is both human and practical. His approach is grounded in systems thinking, deep listening, and helping leaders turn strategic ambition into real progress through small steps and real work.IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/73Connect with Richard Koch: linkedin.com/in/richardkoch88Learn more about Serofia: serofia.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:44 Importance of seeing potential in every person 06:10 How seemingly insignificant actions ripple through teams08:37 Why separating leadership and improvement work breaks progress09:14 The Inner System vs. Outer System framework and how it drives change12:19 The negative effect with silos that keeps you away from  focusing on the work and the leader 15:14 Why forcing change undermines ownership 17:32 The mindset shift for change leaders and internal consultants19:07 Why daily work is the path to long-term transformation 21:22 When improvement work splits into process and leadership, change stops sticking23:19 Why direct observation and connection matter25:23 Challenge of relying on experts to help solve problems28:27 How to build sustainability instead of dependency29:05 Navigating trust, timing, and influence with senior leaders32:25 Leading with empathy and understanding the pressure leaders are under 33:52 Value of having the right outside partner to achieve goals 35:50 Seeing a leader move from sponsor to truly owning and enabling change 39:36 Importance of staying curious and creating space for ideas and growth41:00 Taking small steps to make big changes 43:00 The essence of small steps, belief in people, and leading with heart to create the conditions for change Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience: https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/Purchase a copy of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" or gift a copy to your team: http://learningtoleadleadingtolearn.com/

See All (81)

Trailer

5
out of 5
31 Ratings

About

Chain of Learning® is the leadership podcast for leaders and change practitioners who believe that people, not tools, are the foundation of lasting results. If you're working to transform your organization's culture, develop leaders at every level, and build teams that are capable, confident, and empowered to solve problems and innovate, this podcast is for you. Hosted by Katie Anderson, award-winning author of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" and globally recognized expert in people-centered leadership, Chain of Learning explores how leaders break free from the Doer Trap™, and create the conditions in their organization for success and build a vibrant culture where impact is exponential. Each biweekly episode offers practical insights, reflective questions, and real-world examples to help you: - Develop leaders at scale, not just one at a time - Build high-performing cultures of continuous learning, grounded in psychological safety, trust, and empowerment, that thrive and grow - Lead culture transformation and change leadership with intention - Strengthen coaching culture, problem-solving, and leadership development across your organization - Move from managers who focus on outcomes to leaders who develop people, improve performance, and get results Grounded in human-centered leadership and adult learning practices, and informed by principles of the Toyota Way, Lean thinking, and operational excellence, Chain of Learning features conversations with influential thinkers and leaders shaping the future of leadership at scale and organizational learning. Past guests include Carol Dweck, Michael Bungay Stanier, Rich Sheridan, Barry O'Reilly, Steve Spear, Jim Womack, Gene Kim, and Larry Culp. Subscribe and follow Chain of Learning® to deepen your impact. Share this podcast with your colleagues, fellow change leaders, and friends so we can strengthen our Chain of Learning together. Join the conversation: ChainOfLearning.com Katie Anderson’s website: KBJAnderson.com Connect with Katie: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Read Katie's Shingo Publication Award-winning book: LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.com Download the KATALYST™ Change Leader Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/Katalyst Popular Episode Topics Include: Leadership Development, Developing Leaders at Scale, The Doer Trap, Coaching Culture, Building a Culture of Learning, Culture Transformation, Change Leadership, Leading Change, Change Readiness, Change Adoption, Stakeholder Engagement, Organizational Change, Lean Leadership, Lean Thinking, Operational Excellence, Toyota Way, Toyota Leadership, People-Centered Leadership, Psychological Safety, Building Trust, Leadership Coaching, Break the Telling Habit, Leader as Coach, Continuous Improvement, Kaizen, Organizational Learning, Problem-Solving Culture, Developing People, High-Performing Teams, Learning Organization, Executive Leadership, Strategic Alignment, Leading Without Authority, Influence, Leading Through Influence, Leadership Identity, Gemba Leadership, A3 Thinking, PDCA, Growth Mindset, Leader Development, Japan Leadership Experience, Learning to Lead Leading to Learn, Leadership Podcast

Information

You Might Also Like