Chain of Learning: Leadership Strategies for Continuous Improvement and Transformational Change

Katie Anderson
  • 5.0 (30)
  • Management
  • Updated Biweekly

Chain of Learning® is the trusted leadership podcast for transformational change leaders, Lean and operational excellence practitioners, and internal change agents who believe that people—not tools—are the foundation of sustainable results. If you’re committed to continuous improvement and continuous learning, and want to build a culture where teams are capable, confident, and empowered to solve problems, innovate, and lead at every level—this podcast is for you. Hosted by Katie Anderson, award-winning author of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" and globally recognized expert in people-centered leadership, Chain of Learning explores how leaders at all levels move from transactional “doing” to a vibrant, engaged culture of learning—where people and process lead to organizational success. Each biweekly episode offers practical insights, reflective questions, and real-world examples to help you: * Build high-performing learning cultures * Strengthen continuous improvement, influence, and Lean leadership capabilities * Lead transformational change with intention * Develop people through problem-solving, coaching, and leadership development * Improve performance while investing in human potential Grounded in human-centered leadership and the principles of the Toyota Way, the podcast features conversations with influential thinkers and practitioners shaping the future of organizational learning, operational excellence, and change leadership. Past guests include Carol Dweck, Michael Bungay Stanier, Jim Womack, Gene Kim, and Larry Culp. Through thoughtful conversations, real-world stories, and practical reflection, you’ll learn how leadership behaviors, learning mindsets, and systems thinking come together to create sustainable impact. Subscribe and follow Chain of Learning® to deepen your impact—and share this podcast with your friends, fellow change leaders, and colleagues so that we can strengthen our Chain of Learning together. Podcast website: ChainOfLearning.com Katie Anderson’s website: KBJAnderson.com Connect with Katie: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Read Katie's award-winning book: LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.com Download the KATALYST™ Change Leader Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/Katalyst

  1. May 27

    76 | What Is the Purpose of Kaizen? John Shook Answers Your Questions (Part 3 of 3)

    What does it really take to sustain a culture of continuous improvement –  through pressure for results, across generations, and into an era of AI? In this final episode of my three-part series with John Shook, one of the most influential leaders and thinkers in the global lean community, we turned to the questions on your mind.  Before we sat down to record, I asked listeners to submit your questions. We cover four of them specifically here, though many others were addressed in Parts 1 and 2, and together they highlight the tensions change leaders and executives face every day. At the end, as we promised in Part 2, John shares his parting reflections and advice for all of us leading transformation to create people-centered learning cultures. It’s not just what we should stop doing, it’s what we need to continue. Starting with ourselves. If you haven't listened to episodes 74 and 75 yet, start there first as you won’t want to miss hearing this conversation in full. You'll Learn: Why leaders should be patient for results but impatient for actionWhy getting to the assumptions that underlie your principles and values is where the real work of culture change beginsHow aligning around the real problem to solve helps close the gap across generations and perspectivesWhat the original intention of jidoka — separating machine work from human work — can teach us about navigating AI and keeping technology in service of peopleThe real purpose of kaizen and continuous improvementABOUT MY GUEST:John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application.IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/76Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Purchase a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: https://kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead/ TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:28 [Listener Question] How do you balance patience with action? 04:06 Avoiding solution jumping and analysis paralysis 05:20 [Listener Question] What will matter most for the next generation of organizations? 07:21 Why underlying assumptions matter more than artifacts 08:28 The deeper level of hansei and reflection 08:53 [Listener Question] How do you bridge generations without slowing improvement? 10:43 Quick PDCA vs. long-cycle learning 11:23 Aligning people around shared purpose 13:56 [Listener Question] In our age of AI, how do we stay true to jidoka's original intent, separating machine work from human work? 14:12 AI, jidoka, and protecting human work 15:23 Four questions to navigate uncertainty 16:17 Why respect for people still matters in AI 17:15 Jidoka beyond “automation with a human touch” 18:54 Curiosity, experiments, and learning with AI 19:30 The promise and risk of AI thinking for us 22:08 PDCA beyond engineering and problem solving 25:39 The purpose of kaizen is to do more kaizen 26:18 Creating conditions for people to think and grow 27:00 Shifting from leading change to creating conditions

    29 min

  2. May 20

    75 | The Human Side of Lean: John Shook on Building Systems That Last (Part 2 of 3)

    Lean has always been about people. We just kept reaching for the tools, without understanding the human purpose behind them. In part two of my three-part conversation with John Shook, we go behind the scenes of Toyota's culture and leadership — sharing stories of the system-building leaders who actually made it what it is, and exploring what it really means to lead people-centered change. John shares behind-the-scenes reflections from his time inside Toyota that you might not have heard before. Drawing on his direct experience in the company and our shared experiences living and working in Japan and globally, we explore a critical feature that is often missed: lean has always been a socio-technical system. The tools only work when we understand the deeper human purpose behind them. In this episode, we talk about the people who actually built Toyota's culture, what John learned from his two very different bosses — including Isao Yoshino, the subject of my book “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn” — and what happens when we lose sight of the human purpose inside the tools we practice every day. In the previous episode, John offered a powerful reframe on lean's impact — and what question we should really be asking as change leaders. If you haven't listened to episode 74 yet, hit pause and start there first — then come back to this one to pick up where we left off. You'll Learn: Inside stories of how Toyota's culture was built and the system builders behind itWhat John learned from his very different bosses inside Toyota and how their styles shaped his own leadershipWhether you are a lean “mechanic” or “social worker” and what your answer reveals about your leadershipWhy every lean tool is already socio-technical — kanban, standardized work, A3, andon — and what we lost when we introduced them as primarily technicalThe concept of motainai — waste as a moral failure, not just a technical one — and why this matters for how you leadABOUT MY GUEST:John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/75Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Purchase a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:04 Why changing culture is harder than copying systems 04:05 John’s question that still drives him: Why Toyota? 05:10 How John found his way into Toyota and NUMMI 06:15 Why Toyota endured while other Japanese companies faded 07:10 Short-term leaders vs. long-term system builders 08:15 The crisis that shaped Toyota’s future direction 10:05 John’s experience learning from very different Toyota leaders 11:15 Why conflicting feedback accelerated John’s learning 12:10 Bringing your own thinking into the A3 process 13:15 Different cultures inside Toyota and how they shaped leadership 14:10 Mr. Cho’s powerful way of teaching through stories 16:10 Katie’s lion story and breaking the telling habit 17:15 Adapting your leadership approach to the situation 19:15 Reading both the technical and social sides of change 20:20 TPS as a way to expose weaknesses and accelerate growth 21:45 Are you a lean mechanic or a lean social worker? 22:50 Identifying your leadership bias and growth edge 24:05 Why process improvement and OD teams should work together 27:10 Scientific thinking, humanism, and ethics in Toyota leadership 28:55 Eliminating waste as more than a technical exercise 30:05 Mottainai and the deeper meaning of waste 32:25 Why lean tools were always socio-technical 33:40 Kanban, standardized work, and the human side of lean 35:10 The A3 as more than a problem-solving tool 37:35 The most common failure mode in lean transformations 38:30 When lean becomes the goal instead of the means 39:30 Why lean isn’t just for executives 40:35 Improving work at every level of the organization 41:40 Why empowerment without support falls apart 42:20 The Andon system as a model for real support 43:45 Where do you need to grow: technical or human?

    47 min

  3. May 13

    74 | What Problem Are We Solving? John Shook Reflects: Has Lean Failed? (Part 1 of 3)

    Has lean really failed? That question sparked one of the most listened-to conversations in the history of this podcast — my two-part series with Jim Womack in episodes 37 and 38. When I sat down with John Shook — one of the most influential thought leaders and practitioners in the global lean and continuous improvement community — we explored a different angle. John's perspective isn't a rebuttal. It's a reframe. A counterpoint to the question itself. John asks: what problem are we really trying to solve? His answer unfolds across three episodes — the first ever three-part series on Chain of Learning. And I think it will change how you think about your own impact as a change leader. You’ll Learn: Why the question "how many lean enterprises have we created?" may be leading us in the wrong direction — and what we should ask insteadThe difference between "command and control" and what John calls "command and abandon" — and which one you're more likely doingWhy the key question in problem-solving is not "is this accurate?" but "is this useful?"How to recognize your span of influence and build systems at the right level that help people think, learn, and take ownershipWhy purpose → work → capability is the right sequence — and why most leaders start in the wrong placeABOUT MY GUEST:John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/74Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Grab a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:00 Why John Shook believes we may be asking the wrong question about lean 05:25 Why change leadership always starts with changing yourself 06:40 The tension between influencing others and trying to control them 08:15 What a people-centered learning culture actually looks like in practice 09:05 Why John avoids lean jargon and starts with the problem instead 10:00 The Toyota question that shaped John’s thinking: “What problem are you trying to solve?” 11:15 Why learning only matters when it’s grounded in the work 12:30 Toyota’s “attitude toward learning” and why it changes everything 15:05 Why leaders must create the environment for learning and problem-solving 16:00 How organizations drift into “big company disease” 17:05 Why purpose → work → capability is the sequence most leaders miss 18:15 The risk of starting culture change with leadership behaviors alone 19:20 Why focusing on the work reveals what’s really blocking change 21:00 Why John sees more “command and abandon” than command and control 23:20 Focusing on your span of influence instead of waiting for senior leaders 27:15 How every person at work already has “problem consciousness” 29:00 The surprising truth about who is most frustrated in organizations 32:15 Building systems at your level that create ownership and capability 33:20 Why modeling the behavior matters more than pushing harder 36:15 Why sustainable change starts with how you show up each day

    38 min

  4. Apr 29

    73 | Small Steps, Leading with Heart: How Transformation Sustains [with Richard Koch]

    The way you’re leading transformation might be getting in the way of the culture you’re trying to build. As change leaders and practitioners, we care about results. But in that focus, it’s easy to stay on the outer work—processes, metrics, systems—and underestimate the inner work – our mindset, behaviors, and relationships – that actually moves people. Our passion can unintentionally pull us away from creating the conditions for learning, alignment, and growth, and taking ownership back by stepping in to do, to solve, and to own the work. To explore this, I’m joined by Richard Koch, who has spent 25+ years leading change inside large, complex global organizations—from frontline improvement to system-level transformation. We’re connected by a shared belief: sustainable transformation doesn’t come from pushing harder. It comes from creating the conditions for people to be successful. In this conversation, Richard shares what he’s learned from being inside that tension including why the way many organizations deploy improvement teams can unintentionally prevent the problem-solving ownership they’re trying to build. You’ll Learn: Why daily work and small steps are where long-term change is actually builtHow separating leadership development and continuous improvement creates confusion—and weakens ownershipWhere improvement teams unintentionally take over the work and limit capability growthWhat it looks like to support leaders in owning change without stepping in to solve itWhy the leader must be at the center of transformation—and what changes when that responsibility is heldABOUT MY GUEST: Richard H. Koch is Managing Director of Serofia and works with leaders who want to create meaningful progress for people, performance, and the future they are helping to shape. Drawing on more than 25 years of international experience across strategy, leadership, operational excellence, innovation, and transformation, he brings together coaching, training, and consulting in a way that is both human and practical. His approach is grounded in systems thinking, deep listening, and helping leaders turn strategic ambition into real progress through small steps and real work.IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/73Connect with Richard Koch: linkedin.com/in/richardkoch88Learn more about Serofia: serofia.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:44 Importance of seeing potential in every person 06:10 How seemingly insignificant actions ripple through teams08:37 Why separating leadership and improvement work breaks progress09:14 The Inner System vs. Outer System framework and how it drives change12:19 The negative effect with silos that keeps you away from  focusing on the work and the leader 15:14 Why forcing change undermines ownership 17:32 The mindset shift for change leaders and internal consultants19:07 Why daily work is the path to long-term transformation 21:22 When improvement work splits into process and leadership, change stops sticking23:19 Why direct observation and connection matter25:23 Challenge of relying on experts to help solve problems28:27 How to build sustainability instead of dependency29:05 Navigating trust, timing, and influence with senior leaders32:25 Leading with empathy and understanding the pressure leaders are under 33:52 Value of having the right outside partner to achieve goals 35:50 Seeing a leader move from sponsor to truly owning and enabling change 39:36 Importance of staying curious and creating space for ideas and growth41:00 Taking small steps to make big changes 43:00 The essence of small steps, belief in people, and leading with heart to create the conditions for change

    47 min

  5. Apr 22

    72 | Finding Clarity Through the Messy Middle: Reflections from My Book Retreat [with Betsy Jordyn] (BONUS)

    The messy middle is part of the learning process. It’s the point where what worked before no longer fully fits—but what comes next is not yet clear.Where your thinking is still forming, your ideas are evolving, and the answer has not fully emerged. And while it can feel uncertain, this is often where the deepest continuous learning happens. In this behind-the-scenes bonus episode on Chain of Learning, I share a live conversation with, Betsy Jordyn, my business coach and strategic thinking partner, recorded on the final day of a working retreat earlier this month.  We pull back the curtains and invite you into our unscripted reflections from working through the messy middle of shaping my next book—and the leadership (and life) lessons that continue to emerge through the process. Tune in to hear the real-time learning, reflection, and refinement happening as I shape the ideas behind my next book. You’ll learn: Why the messy middle is often a necessary part of continuous learning, growth, and effective change leadershipHow to recognize when forcing clarity too early limits stronger thinking from emergingWhat it looks like to let ideas evolve instead of defending what came beforeHow collaboration and outside perspective sharpen your judgment and deepen your thinkingWhy modeling your own learning process creates stronger conditions for learning in othersHow to stay engaged in uncertainty without rushing to jumping to answers too quicklyABOUT MY GUEST: Betsy Jordyn is the founder and CEO of Betsy Jordyn International, a strategic branding firm that helps transformational consultants and coaches refine their messaging, positioning, and offers to accelerate their success and amplify their impact. She is also the host of the Consulting Matters podcast and a sought-after speaker and trainer on brand strategy, executive influence, and the business of transformation.Will you help me?I have a quick favor to ask. I’m conducting research for my next book and would love to get your insights on people-centered, learning organizations and the leadership that creates them. The survey takes just 5 to 10 minutes and your responses will directly shape the book and a future Chain of Learning podcast episode. -> Take the Survey here, open through May 22. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/72Connect with Betsy Jordyn: linkedin.com/in/betsy-jordynListen to Betsy’s Podcast, Consulting Matters: betsyjordyn.com/podcasts/consulting-matters Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Download my FREE KATALYST™ Change Leader Self-Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/katalystSubscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Take the People-Centered Leadership SurveyTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 01:16 The hidden reality of creativity and why books are written multiple times02:39 What the messy middle feels like and why this stage matters more than we think05:04 Re-centering leadership on what’s within your control in a world of constant change06:00 Why influence isn’t about forcing change, but creating conditions for growth08:12 Reframing resistance and what people actually need to move forward10:06 How to keep evolving instead of staying stuck in old ways of thinking12:26 The process of writing a book and getting clarity on the what the book is about16:04 Why growth often requires releasing what once worked17:09 Benefits of collaborating in person vs. using AI as a thinking partner18:07 Why learning can’t be forced, but we need to allow space for insight22:07 The concept of omotenashi and looking at a lens of caring from a human angle24:14 The meaning of Intention = Heart + Direction to create the conditions for learning29:15 What changes when you respect others’ agency instead of driving direction32:19 How to have empathy and not push your agenda when leaders are not “bought in”33:01 Why your expertise can become a barrier to connection and clarity35:46 How different perspectives reveal whether your message actually lands38:08 Moving beyond the lingo to prevent barriers43:27 Why growth requires releasing identities, ideas, and ways of working

    46 min

  6. Apr 15

    71 | Own the Thinking Process, Not the Thinking: How Leaders Build Problem-Solving Capability

    Caring becomes carrying. It happens so naturally we rarely notice it. Someone brings us a problem. We care. We want to help. And somewhere in that desire to help, without meaning to, we take on the weight of solving it ourselves. That shift is subtle. And costly. Because the moment you take ownership of the thinking, you take away the very capability you're trying to build. In this episode, I explore a critical shift in change leadership: how to hold the thinking process so others can solve their own problems — without taking on their work as your own. Your value as a leader isn't in having the answer. It's in creating the conditions where others can think, test, and learn. When you want to create empowered problem-solving in your organization, stepping back is stepping up. You'll Learn: How to notice when you've shifted from supporting someone's thinking to carrying their problemWhy redirecting your focus from the problem to the person working through it changes everything about how you coachHow to use a simple problem solving structure (Target, Actual, Gap) to anchor your questions and keep ownership where it belongsHow to stay present to how someone is thinking instead of jumping ahead to solutionsHow to choose intentionally when to step in with direction — and when to step back to build capabilityIMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes with links to other podcast episodes and resources: ChainOfLearning.com/71 Check out my website for resources and ways to work with me KBJAnderson.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonDownload my free KATALYST™ Change Leader Self-Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/katalyst TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 00:40 The subtle shift from caring to carrying problem solving03:35 Realization of owning the process of solving the problem04:39 What gets in the way of intentions to be helpful 05:27 Why problem solving and problem solving coaching are two different skills05:50 How to stay focused on the thinking process and keep from sliding back into the problem itself06:42 How to anchor questions around a structured problem solving flow08:11 The mantra, “Target, Actual gap, Please explain,” to identify the real problem before jumping to solutions09:13 Benefit of assigning a problem for a team member to solve 10:56 The identity shift from having all the answers to holding the process12:28 One way to notice if you have a telling habit14:41 Why you should avoid defaulting to giving the answer and ask questions to understand the problem first16:59 The meaning of intention = heart + direction to coach with the right motives17:21 Three steps to coach with intention:17:25 [ONE] Take an intention pause17:45 [TWO] Choose the behaviors that align with that impact18:08 [THREE] Reflect and learn your way forward 19:15 Positive result from leading by asking questions that helped team gain confidence21:41 Three reflection questions before you go into your next coaching conversation

    23 min

  7. Apr 1

    70| Talk to the People: How Leaders Make Better Decisions [with Nigel Thurlow]

    What happens when leaders make decisions further and further away from the work itself? In a world of AI, automated dashboards, and remote work, it’s easy to manage representations of work instead of understanding what’s actually happening for the people who do it. Yet, when leaders rely on data rather than facts, they often end up solving the wrong problems, even with the best intentions. In this episode of Chain of Learning, I'm joined by Nigel Thurlow, consultant, systems thinker, and Toyota's first-ever Chief of Agile, to explore how better decisions come from understanding how the system actually operates. And that understanding is built by engaging with the people doing the work. When you stay connected, you don't just get better information. You see how work actually flows, where problems emerge, and what's getting in the way. You build trust, surface issues earlier, and make it easier for people to think and solve problems together. In this episode, you’ll learn: Why there's a critical difference between delegation and empowerment — and why one leaves people unable to actHow to distinguish between data and facts, and why going to see conditions firsthand changes the decisions you makeWhat "going to gemba" looks like in a digital or remote environment when there's no factory floor to walkWhy making work visible creates the conditions for people to surface problems,  before they compoundWhy AI amplifies what's already there — and why fixing the underlying system comes firstABOUT MY GUEST: Nigel Thurlow is CEO of The Flow Consortium and the creator of Scrum the Toyota Way. He spent over 20 years at Toyota, including serving as the first Chief of Agile at Toyota Connected. He is co-author of The Flow System and The Flow System Playbook, and his work focuses on improving decision-making in complex environments. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes with links to other podcast episodes and resources: ChainOfLearning.com/70 Check out my website for resources and ways to work with me KBJAnderson.comConnect with Nigel Thurlow: linkedin.com/in/nigelthurlowFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonDownload my free KATALYST™ Change Leader Self-Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/katalyst  TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:19 Effects of being detached from the work when working remotely04:17 Difference between delegation and empowerment when assigning work to others05:35 Fear of those who are delegated to of failing or making the wrong decision07:15 What it means to empower someone and transfer the ownership of that decision to someone else 09:21 How to go to gemba and go where the work is done10:07 The benefits of "presenteeism" and being present where the work is performed11:46 Benefits of collaborating in person vs. a digital environment to make better decision13:02 Nigel’s experience in working in a frozen food manufacturer and going out to the line to understand the pain workers experienced15:42 Why you need to understand how work gets done to improve throughput and quality of work16:39 Benefits of hiring an external or internal consultant to understand the problems that need solving19:31 The effects of companies investing in tools and AI and realizing it doesn’t help with problem solving21:30 How to avoid the leadership decision problem and get all the facts to avoid consequences24:39 Technique known as “sense making” to understand the temperament and behaviors in the environment to reveal dark constraints26:09 The difference between US and Toyota’s corporate culture in incentivizing leaders to be part of a system 29:10 How to help workers make changes that need to be made visible to senior leaders35:04 Enabling others to communicate with leaders to improve decision making37:14 Why badly designed systems and not the workforce are the cause of problems38:25 Why you can’t implement AI with a broken system 40:31 The possible future of AI and how it can affect our decision making43:37 Importance of embracing the human connection to better communicate and make better decisions 47:24 Reflect on where your decisions may be happening too far from the work

    50 min

  8. Mar 18

    69| Better Judgment, Not Better AI Tools: What Leaders Need to Learn and Unlearn [with Barry O'Reilly]

    You're being told to use AI. But which tool you actually need to do your best work? Leaders and change practitioners everywhere feel the same pressures right now — more meetings, more information, more mandates to adopt AI — with less time to think and less clarity about where to start. And most of the advice begins in the wrong place: with the tool. In this episode of Chain of Learning, I talk with Barry O'Reilly, bestselling author of Unlearn and Lean Enterprise, and author of the new book Artificial Organizations, about why the real opportunity with AI isn't automation. It's better judgment. Barry shares examples from his work with Fortune 500 executives who are successfully pairing human instinct with machine insight — not by adopting every new tool, but by understanding how they work, where judgment matters most, and what needs to be unlearned along the way.  It's about letting go of the belief that your expertise is your competitive advantage, and starting to see AI not as a replacement, but as a thinking partner that can sharpen your clarity, your presence, and your preparation. In this episode, you'll learn: Why starting with the tool is the wrong place to start — and what to do insteadHow to identify your natural traits and highest-leverage tasks as the foundation for working with AIThe unlearning required to shift from relying on instinct alone to combining human judgment with machine insightHow successful leaders are using AI to pressure-test ideas and show up more prepared and presentWhy the skills that make you more effective with AI are the same skills that make you more influential with peopleWhere does judgment matter most in your role right now — and what might you need to unlearn to create space for a better way of working? ABOUT MY GUEST: Barry O'Reilly is the bestselling author of Unlearn and co-author of Lean Enterprise. He hosts the Unlearn Podcast and is co-founder of Nobody Studios, an AI-driven venture studio. His newest book, Artificial Organizations, is a practical guide for leaders ready to combine human and machine intelligence to make better decisions faster. Barry O’Reilly is also giving away a copy of Artificial Organizations to THREE lucky winners!Artificial Organizations explores how leaders can combine human judgment with AI to make better decisions in an increasingly complex world. Instead of focusing on AI tools, the book shows how organizations must redesign how leaders think, work, and make decisions so technology enhances clarity rather than amplifies confusion. It presents a practical leadership system for using AI as a thinking partner to improve judgment, reduce decision overload, and lead more effectively.Register now to enter the giveaway!IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes with links to other podcast episodes and resources: ChainOfLearning.com/69 Check out my website for resources and ways to work with me KBJAnderson.comConnect with Barry O’Reilly: linkedin.com/in/barryoreilly Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonCheck out Barry O’Reilly’s book, Artificial Organizations: artificialorganizations.com Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Learn more about my coaching, trusted advisor partnerships, and leadership learning experiences: organizations@kbjanderson.com  RELATED LINKS: Unlearn Podcast | Intentional Leadership with Katie AndersonEpisode 59 | Get Better at Getting Better: Leveraging AI to Elevate Human Learning with Nathen HarveyTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:28 Where to start on adopting AI05:04 Importance of understanding natural traits and strengths before looking into AI tools07:12 Defining the problem first before looking for the tool to close the gap08:17 Why some may see AI as a deflection tool09:02 How to use AI for synthesizing data rather than rudimentary tasks12:28 Why judgment is the leadership advantage and leveraging AI to make better judgment12:38 Using decision velocity to improve decision making13:35 Decision advantage in synthesizing data to make a decision14:35 The difference between AI and human strengths in decision making16:26 Unlearning how you work to make progress19:32 Why human thinking plus machine equals a better outcome20:28 Examples of how to use AI to be the best business and thinking partner24:46 Importance of asking the right questions when brainstorming with AI26:06 The limitations of AI and knowing how to use it to your advantage30:18 How technology can help us be make a bigger impact33:12 The loss of psychological safety when implementing AI and unlearning this fear35:35 Better results when teams collaborate with AI vs. doing it independently36:06 Shifting from control based learning mindset to influence based learning mindset for continuous improvement37:54 Implementing AI to be the most effective in your organization40:34 How to start building an AI stack knowing your natural traits, one or two tasks, and then experimenting with an AI tool42:54 The skills that make us more effective with machines to increase influence43:16 Questions for reflection on how to implement AI in your organization

    45 min
See All (77)

Trailer

5
out of 5
30 Ratings

About

Chain of Learning® is the trusted leadership podcast for transformational change leaders, Lean and operational excellence practitioners, and internal change agents who believe that people—not tools—are the foundation of sustainable results. If you’re committed to continuous improvement and continuous learning, and want to build a culture where teams are capable, confident, and empowered to solve problems, innovate, and lead at every level—this podcast is for you. Hosted by Katie Anderson, award-winning author of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" and globally recognized expert in people-centered leadership, Chain of Learning explores how leaders at all levels move from transactional “doing” to a vibrant, engaged culture of learning—where people and process lead to organizational success. Each biweekly episode offers practical insights, reflective questions, and real-world examples to help you: * Build high-performing learning cultures * Strengthen continuous improvement, influence, and Lean leadership capabilities * Lead transformational change with intention * Develop people through problem-solving, coaching, and leadership development * Improve performance while investing in human potential Grounded in human-centered leadership and the principles of the Toyota Way, the podcast features conversations with influential thinkers and practitioners shaping the future of organizational learning, operational excellence, and change leadership. Past guests include Carol Dweck, Michael Bungay Stanier, Jim Womack, Gene Kim, and Larry Culp. Through thoughtful conversations, real-world stories, and practical reflection, you’ll learn how leadership behaviors, learning mindsets, and systems thinking come together to create sustainable impact. Subscribe and follow Chain of Learning® to deepen your impact—and share this podcast with your friends, fellow change leaders, and colleagues so that we can strengthen our Chain of Learning together. Podcast website: ChainOfLearning.com Katie Anderson’s website: KBJAnderson.com Connect with Katie: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Read Katie's award-winning book: LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.com Download the KATALYST™ Change Leader Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/Katalyst

Information

You Might Also Like