Chalk and Gavel: An Education Law Podcast

Chalk and Gavel LLC
  • 5.0 (84)
  • Education
  • Updated Biweekly

Welcome to Chalk and Gavel, exploring how the law shapes education, one case at a time. Join education professors Chris Thomas and Jamie Kudlats as they demystify the complex, ever-changing, and fascinating world of school law. Both former teachers, Chris, a former school attorney, and Jamie, a former principal, draw upon their experiences to explore the stories at the intersection of law and education. If you're an educator, policymaker, parent, student, or someone just curious about education, Chalk and Gavel is here to help you understand how the courtroom is connected to the classroom.

  1. 1d ago

    80 | Horses and Mules: Exploring How Kentucky Defines Common Public Schools

    In this episode, Jamie and Chris unpack a Kentucky Supreme Court case challenging the state’s effort to fund charter schools under House Bill 9. They trace the dispute back to Kentucky’s 1891 Constitution, which requires the state to maintain a system of “common schools” and sharply limits the use of public education funds outside that system. After exploring more than a century of Kentucky precedent—including the landmark Rose decision and a 2022 ruling rejecting public support for private education—they examine whether Kentucky could simply designate charter schools as public schools even though those schools could limit enrollment, operate under different rules, and sit outside the traditional system of accountability. The episode ultimately explores a deceptively simple question: If the legislature calls something a public school, does that actually make it one?Chris and Jamie mentioned the new book, “Ending TeacherShortages.” You can order a copy here.Check out our website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch.Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at lapis.educationlaw.org.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw

  2. Sep 22

    79 | Religion and Discrimination: Previewing the St. Mary v. Roy SCOTUS Faith-Based Pre-School Case

    Colorado’s new universal pre-K program is headed for a Supreme Court showdown in St. Mary v. Roy—and it puts a familiar education-law question on a sharper edge: when a state opens a publicly funded program to private (including faith-based) providers, can it require those providers to follow nondiscrimination rules that protect families’ sexual orientation and gender identity, or must the Free Exercise Clause require an exemption? In this episode, we preview the case through the 10th Circuit decision, walking through how Colorado designed its “mixed delivery” pre-K system, why the nondiscrimination requirement became the flashpoint, and how the court framed the tension between equal access in publicly funded education programs and religious liberty claims by private religious preschools. With oral arguments coming in early November, we also zoom out to place St. Mary v. Roy in the Court’s recent wave of religion-in-schools disputes—and what the outcome could mean for states trying to build universal early-childhood programs while maintaining inclusive enrollment protections. We also briefly discuss the recent multi-billion-dollar settlement in the ongoing social media responsibility saga.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch. Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapis.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw#StMaryvRoy #SCOTUS #UniversalPreK #FreeExerciseClause #Nondiscrimination #EducationPolicy #educationlaw #podcast #chalkandgavel

  3. Sep 8

    78 | Lemons and Stones: The Ten Commandments are Back in Classrooms…Live from the McCarthy Institute

    Can a state require public schools to post the Ten Commandments in every classroom? In this episode, recorded live at the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute, we unpack Nathan v. Alamo Heights, the Fifth Circuit’s decision upholding Texas’s law requiring public elementary and secondary schools to display the Ten Commandments in every classroom. The case revisits an issue we first explored in connection with Louisiana’s similar law, but this time against a rapidly changing constitutional landscape shaped by the Supreme Court’s decisions in Kennedy v. Bremerton School District and Mahmoud v. Taylor. We explore why the Fifth Circuit concluded that the Supreme Court’s 1980 decision in Stone v. Graham is no longer controlling, how the court applied the Supreme Court’s new history-and-tradition approach to the Establishment Clause, and why it determined that displaying the Ten Commandments does not resemble a founding-era establishment of religion. We also examine the families’ Free Exercise Clause argument under Mahmoud, the court’s distinction between religious curriculum and a religious text displayed on a classroom wall, and the sharply contested question of coercion in public schools. Nathan illustrates just how dramatically the legal framework governing religion in schools is shifting—and how many questions remain unresolved. Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch. Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapis. Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw #EducationLaw #SchoolLaw #TenCommandments #ReligiousFreedom #FirstAmendment

  4. Aug 25

    77 | Bedrooms and Boundaries: WebcamGate and Its Implications for Schools and Student Privacy

    What happens when a school district secretly activates student laptop webcams inside their homes? In this episode, we unpack Robbins v. Lower Merion School District, the infamous Pennsylvania school surveillance case better known as “Webcamgate.” The case began after a high school student was confronted by an assistant principal with a photograph taken through his school-issued laptop’s webcam—inside his bedroom. What followed exposed a district-wide surveillance system that had captured tens of thousands of webcam photographs and screenshots without students or parents knowing.We explore how Lower Merion School District’s TheftTrack software worked, the warnings district officials received before the program even launched, and how a student tech intern raised privacy concerns that were quickly dismissed. We also examine the claims brought against the district, the role of the Fourth Amendment and federal wiretapping laws, the FBI investigation, the independent investigation that uncovered the scale of the surveillance, and the eventual settlement and permanent injunction. Robbins is a striking reminder that powerful educational technology can create serious legal consequences when schools fail to establish clear policies, oversight, transparency, and consent.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch. Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapis.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw#EducationLaw #SchoolLaw #StudentPrivacy #FourthAmendment #EducationTechnology

  5. Aug 11

    76 | Religion and Opt Outs: How Schools and Courts are Navigating the Ambiguity of Mahmoud v. Taylor

    What happens after the Supreme Court says parents have a religious right to opt their children out of public school instruction that conflicts with their religious beliefs?In this episode, we unpack Alan L. v. Lexington Public Schools, one of the first federal court decisions to apply the Supreme Court’s recent decision in Mahmoud v. Taylor. The case began when the father of a kindergartener sought to opt his son out of curriculum addressing sexual orientation, gender identity, and family structures. When the school district rejected his requests as overly broad, the dispute quickly made its way to federal court.We explore how the court applied Mahmoud, why its interpretation may significantly expand the reach of that decision, and the difficult questions schools now face about identifying objectionable curriculum, providing parents notice, and administering religious opt-outs. Mahmoud may have announced a constitutional right, but Alan L. shows just how unsettled its boundaries remain.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch. Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapis.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw#EducationLaw #SchoolLaw #SupremeCourt #ReligiousFreedom #ParentalRights

  6. Jul 28

    75 | Stop the Presses: Cathy Kuhlmeier and the Story Behind the Landmark "Hazelwood" Decision

    What if one of the most influential Supreme Court decisions in education looks very different when you hear the story from the person who lived it?In this special episode, we're joined by Cathy Kuhlmeier, the student journalist at the center of Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier—the landmark Supreme Court case that has shaped student speech and student journalism in schools for nearly four decades. While most educators know the legal standard, far fewer know what actually happened inside the newsroom before the case ever reached the Supreme Court.Cathy takes us behind the case, sharing firsthand details that never made it into the Court's opinion and offering a perspective that raises important questions about how the events unfolded, why the dispute escalated, and whether the facts tell a more nuanced story than the one many educators have learned over the years. Along the way, we explore what it was like to become the named plaintiff in a landmark constitutional case while still in high school, discuss why perhaps we should start calling it the Kuhlmeier case, and reflect on the courage it takes for students to stand up for what they believe are their constitutional rights.If you think you already know Hazelwood, this conversation may cause you to see it in a very different light.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch.Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapisChalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw #HazelwoodStandard #StudentJournalism #SupremeCourt #SchoolLaw #EducationLeadership #K12

  7. Jul 14

    74 | The West Virginia v. BPJ Decision and the Implications for Transgender Student Athletes

    What does "equal athletic opportunity" mean after the Supreme Court's decision in West Virginia v. B.P.J.? And has the Court finally provided clarity on one of the most contentious issues in K–12 education—or simply shifted the legal debate in a new direction?In this episode, we break down the Supreme Court's recent decision in West Virginia v. B.P.J., a case addressing whether states may prohibit transgender girls from participating on female school sports teams. We examine the Court's reasoning, the competing opinions from the justices, and what the ruling means for schools navigating the intersection of Title IX, athletics, and gender identity.As always, we walk through the facts, legal analysis, and practical implications for educators, school leaders, coaches, and athletic directors. We discuss Justice Kavanaugh's majority opinion, the Court's interpretation of Title IX and the legal meaning of "sex," the sharply divided opinions among the justices, and the broader constitutional and policy questions that remain unresolved. Most importantly, we focus on what K–12 schools need to know now to remain compliant while supporting students and managing increasingly complex athletic programs.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch.Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapisChalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw #TransAthletes #SupremeCourt #SchoolLaw #EducationLeadership #K12

  8. Jun 30

    73 | Social Media and Accountability: Who’s Responsible for the Harms to Students and Schools?

    When should social media companies be held legally responsible for the harms their platforms allegedly cause students? And what happens when schools find themselves bearing the costs of a mental health crisis they didn't create? In this episode, we examine the massive multidistrict litigation, In re Social Media Adolescent Addiction/Personal Injury Products Liability Litigation, in which school districts and other public entities allege that major social media companies intentionally designed their platforms to be addictive to children and teenagers.As always, we break down the facts, legal theories, and broader implications for K-12 schools. We explore why schools have become central players in litigation over social media addiction, the claims that platforms like Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Snapchat, and YouTube contributed to rising student mental health challenges, and what school districts hope to recover through these lawsuits. Along the way, we explain how multidistrict litigation (MDL) works, why this case is different from a traditional class action, and what educators should watch as this litigation continues to unfold.We also discuss the Supreme Court's recent decision not to hear Littlejohn v. Leon County School Board following its shadow docket ruling in Mirabelli, leaving schools with continued uncertainty about the future of parental rights and student gender identity cases. If it feels like schools are increasingly being asked to solve society's biggest problems—and then defend those efforts in court—this is an episode you won't want to miss.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch.Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapisChalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw #SocialMedia #StudentMentalHealth #SchoolLaw #ProductsLiability #EducationLeadership #K12 #TechnologyLaw

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Welcome to Chalk and Gavel, exploring how the law shapes education, one case at a time. Join education professors Chris Thomas and Jamie Kudlats as they demystify the complex, ever-changing, and fascinating world of school law. Both former teachers, Chris, a former school attorney, and Jamie, a former principal, draw upon their experiences to explore the stories at the intersection of law and education. If you're an educator, policymaker, parent, student, or someone just curious about education, Chalk and Gavel is here to help you understand how the courtroom is connected to the classroom.

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