Chalk and Gavel: An Education Law Podcast

Chalk and Gavel LLC
  • 5.0 (85)
  • Education
  • Biweekly

Welcome to Chalk and Gavel, exploring how the law shapes education, one case at a time. Join education professors Chris Thomas and Jamie Kudlats as they demystify the complex, ever-changing, and fascinating world of school law. Both former teachers, Chris, a former school attorney, and Jamie, a former principal, draw upon their experiences to explore the stories at the intersection of law and education. If you're an educator, policymaker, parent, student, or someone just curious about education, Chalk and Gavel is here to help you understand how the courtroom is connected to the classroom.

  1. 13h ago

    82 | Teacher Shortages and Legal Mandates: When “We Can’t Find Anyone” Isn’t Enough

    What happens when state law requires every classroom to have a permanent, qualified teacher—but a school district says it simply cannot find enough people to fill the jobs? In this episode, we unpack Cleare v. Superior Court, a California case involving teachers, parents, and students in the West Contra Costa Unified School District who challenged persistent teacher vacancies under the state’s Williams complaint process. The district admitted that it was out of compliance with state law, but argued that it had tried extensively to recruit teachers and that eliminating every vacancy was effectively impossible.We explore how California law defines a teacher vacancy, the legacy of Williams v. California, and why cycling substitutes through classrooms does not necessarily satisfy the state’s requirement for a designated, properly credentialed teacher. We also examine the district’s “impossibility” defense, the many recruitment and credentialing strategies available under California law, and the appellate court’s conclusion that a district cannot claim compliance is impossible until it has actually tried all available options. Along the way, we look at the district’s teacher strike, new labor agreement, court-appointed special master, and the difficult financial reality underlying teacher recruitment and retention. Cleare highlights the tension between legal mandates and real-world staffing shortages—and raises the bigger question of what schools must do when “we can’t find anyone” is not enough.Check out the book Chris and Jamie mentioned in the episode: Ending Teacher Shortages by Tuan D. Nguyen and Christopher Redding.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch. Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapis.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw#EducationLaw #SchoolLaw #TeacherShortage #TeacherRecruitment #PublicEducation

  2. Oct 20

    81 | Restraint and Seclusion: The Legal Limits of “Calm-Down Rooms” and Restraints in Schools

    When can schools restrain or seclude students—and when does it cross the legal line? In this episode, we unpack Doe v. Aberdeen School District, a South Dakota case involving allegations that students with disabilities were repeatedly restrained, secluded, and physically handled by their special education teacher. The allegations included a student being placed in a small seclusion room hundreds of times over just a few months, students being physically carried or confined, and incidents involving forced participation in swimming and other activities. We explore the complicated legal landscape surrounding restraint and seclusion, including the Fourth Amendment, qualified immunity, special education law, behavior intervention plans, and federal guidance governing when these practices may be used. We examine why the court concluded that several of the teacher’s actions amounted to unreasonable seizures, why the students’ rights were clearly established, and why qualified immunity did not protect the teacher from the lawsuit moving forward. Doe is an important reminder that restraint and seclusion should not be used as punishment, for convenience, or simply to gain compliance—and that training, documentation, appropriate behavioral supports, and meaningful administrative oversight matter enormously when schools are responding to challenging student behavior.Check out our website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch.Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at lapis.educationlaw.org.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw#EducationLaw #SchoolLaw #SpecialEducation #StudentRights #RestraintAndSeclusion

  3. Oct 6

    80 | Horses and Mules: Exploring How Kentucky Defines Common Public Schools

    In this episode, Jamie and Chris unpack a Kentucky Supreme Court case challenging the state’s effort to fund charter schools under House Bill 9. They trace the dispute back to Kentucky’s 1891 Constitution, which requires the state to maintain a system of “common schools” and sharply limits the use of public education funds outside that system. After exploring more than a century of Kentucky precedent—including the landmark Rose decision and a 2022 ruling rejecting public support for private education—they examine whether Kentucky could simply designate charter schools as public schools even though those schools could limit enrollment, operate under different rules, and sit outside the traditional system of accountability. The episode ultimately explores a deceptively simple question: If the legislature calls something a public school, does that actually make it one?Chris and Jamie mentioned the new book, “Ending TeacherShortages.” You can order a copy here.Check out our website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch.Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at lapis.educationlaw.org.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw

  4. Sep 22

    79 | Religion and Discrimination: Previewing the St. Mary v. Roy SCOTUS Faith-Based Pre-School Case

    Colorado’s new universal pre-K program is headed for a Supreme Court showdown in St. Mary v. Roy—and it puts a familiar education-law question on a sharper edge: when a state opens a publicly funded program to private (including faith-based) providers, can it require those providers to follow nondiscrimination rules that protect families’ sexual orientation and gender identity, or must the Free Exercise Clause require an exemption? In this episode, we preview the case through the 10th Circuit decision, walking through how Colorado designed its “mixed delivery” pre-K system, why the nondiscrimination requirement became the flashpoint, and how the court framed the tension between equal access in publicly funded education programs and religious liberty claims by private religious preschools. With oral arguments coming in early November, we also zoom out to place St. Mary v. Roy in the Court’s recent wave of religion-in-schools disputes—and what the outcome could mean for states trying to build universal early-childhood programs while maintaining inclusive enrollment protections. We also briefly discuss the recent multi-billion-dollar settlement in the ongoing social media responsibility saga.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch. Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapis.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw#StMaryvRoy #SCOTUS #UniversalPreK #FreeExerciseClause #Nondiscrimination #EducationPolicy #educationlaw #podcast #chalkandgavel

  5. Sep 8

    78 | Lemons and Stones: The Ten Commandments are Back in Classrooms…Live from the McCarthy Institute

    Can a state require public schools to post the Ten Commandments in every classroom? In this episode, recorded live at the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute, we unpack Nathan v. Alamo Heights, the Fifth Circuit’s decision upholding Texas’s law requiring public elementary and secondary schools to display the Ten Commandments in every classroom. The case revisits an issue we first explored in connection with Louisiana’s similar law, but this time against a rapidly changing constitutional landscape shaped by the Supreme Court’s decisions in Kennedy v. Bremerton School District and Mahmoud v. Taylor. We explore why the Fifth Circuit concluded that the Supreme Court’s 1980 decision in Stone v. Graham is no longer controlling, how the court applied the Supreme Court’s new history-and-tradition approach to the Establishment Clause, and why it determined that displaying the Ten Commandments does not resemble a founding-era establishment of religion. We also examine the families’ Free Exercise Clause argument under Mahmoud, the court’s distinction between religious curriculum and a religious text displayed on a classroom wall, and the sharply contested question of coercion in public schools. Nathan illustrates just how dramatically the legal framework governing religion in schools is shifting—and how many questions remain unresolved. Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch. Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapis. Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw #EducationLaw #SchoolLaw #TenCommandments #ReligiousFreedom #FirstAmendment

  6. Aug 25

    77 | Bedrooms and Boundaries: WebcamGate and Its Implications for Schools and Student Privacy

    What happens when a school district secretly activates student laptop webcams inside their homes? In this episode, we unpack Robbins v. Lower Merion School District, the infamous Pennsylvania school surveillance case better known as “Webcamgate.” The case began after a high school student was confronted by an assistant principal with a photograph taken through his school-issued laptop’s webcam—inside his bedroom. What followed exposed a district-wide surveillance system that had captured tens of thousands of webcam photographs and screenshots without students or parents knowing.We explore how Lower Merion School District’s TheftTrack software worked, the warnings district officials received before the program even launched, and how a student tech intern raised privacy concerns that were quickly dismissed. We also examine the claims brought against the district, the role of the Fourth Amendment and federal wiretapping laws, the FBI investigation, the independent investigation that uncovered the scale of the surveillance, and the eventual settlement and permanent injunction. Robbins is a striking reminder that powerful educational technology can create serious legal consequences when schools fail to establish clear policies, oversight, transparency, and consent.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch. Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapis.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw#EducationLaw #SchoolLaw #StudentPrivacy #FourthAmendment #EducationTechnology

  7. Aug 11

    76 | Religion and Opt Outs: How Schools and Courts are Navigating the Ambiguity of Mahmoud v. Taylor

    What happens after the Supreme Court says parents have a religious right to opt their children out of public school instruction that conflicts with their religious beliefs?In this episode, we unpack Alan L. v. Lexington Public Schools, one of the first federal court decisions to apply the Supreme Court’s recent decision in Mahmoud v. Taylor. The case began when the father of a kindergartener sought to opt his son out of curriculum addressing sexual orientation, gender identity, and family structures. When the school district rejected his requests as overly broad, the dispute quickly made its way to federal court.We explore how the court applied Mahmoud, why its interpretation may significantly expand the reach of that decision, and the difficult questions schools now face about identifying objectionable curriculum, providing parents notice, and administering religious opt-outs. Mahmoud may have announced a constitutional right, but Alan L. shows just how unsettled its boundaries remain.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch. Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapis.Chalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw#EducationLaw #SchoolLaw #SupremeCourt #ReligiousFreedom #ParentalRights

  8. Jul 28

    75 | Stop the Presses: Cathy Kuhlmeier and the Story Behind the Landmark "Hazelwood" Decision

    What if one of the most influential Supreme Court decisions in education looks very different when you hear the story from the person who lived it?In this special episode, we're joined by Cathy Kuhlmeier, the student journalist at the center of Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier—the landmark Supreme Court case that has shaped student speech and student journalism in schools for nearly four decades. While most educators know the legal standard, far fewer know what actually happened inside the newsroom before the case ever reached the Supreme Court.Cathy takes us behind the case, sharing firsthand details that never made it into the Court's opinion and offering a perspective that raises important questions about how the events unfolded, why the dispute escalated, and whether the facts tell a more nuanced story than the one many educators have learned over the years. Along the way, we explore what it was like to become the named plaintiff in a landmark constitutional case while still in high school, discuss why perhaps we should start calling it the Kuhlmeier case, and reflect on the courage it takes for students to stand up for what they believe are their constitutional rights.If you think you already know Hazelwood, this conversation may cause you to see it in a very different light.Check out our updated website (www.chalkandgavel.com) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and grab some merch.Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's publication, Law and Policy in Schools, at www.educationlaw.org/lapisChalk & Gavel is supported by the Martha McCarthy Education Law & Policy Institute at Indiana University’s School of Education. The McCarthy Institute offers virtual and in-person programming to increase legal literacy. Educators, school leaders, attorneys, policymakers, professors, and others are invited to participate in interactive discussions related to contemporary issues in education law. To learn more, visit https://education.indiana.edu/events/conferences/mccarthy-institute/index.html#EducationLaw #HazelwoodStandard #StudentJournalism #SupremeCourt #SchoolLaw #EducationLeadership #K12

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Welcome to Chalk and Gavel, exploring how the law shapes education, one case at a time. Join education professors Chris Thomas and Jamie Kudlats as they demystify the complex, ever-changing, and fascinating world of school law. Both former teachers, Chris, a former school attorney, and Jamie, a former principal, draw upon their experiences to explore the stories at the intersection of law and education. If you're an educator, policymaker, parent, student, or someone just curious about education, Chalk and Gavel is here to help you understand how the courtroom is connected to the classroom.

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