Real Bible Rob: Affirming Christianity Podcast Real Bible Rob - Inclusive Christianity Discussions Real Bible Rob | PCUSA Min

Rob Christ | Inclusive Christianity
  • 4.7 (13)
  • Christianity
  • Updated Weekly

Exploring Bible interpretation and modern Christian faith, I am a Presbyterian USA minister who interprets the Bible in all of its messy and varied voices. I teach and preach spiritual growth to people who want an open and affirming Christianity. My social media tagline is "People say lots of things about the Bible that aren't really there."  My full-length sermons and live stream are available on YouTube: @robchrist8999 and @edmondspresbyterian132Contact me at: epc-pcusa.org, pastorepc@frontier.com

  1. 24m ago

    New Approach to Romans with Distinguished Professor Beverly Roberts Gaventa

    Send us Fan Mail I am delighted to welcome Dr. Beverly Roberts Gaventa, Retired Distinguished Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Baylor University. She is also Professor Emerita at Princeton Theological Seminary. Many of my PCUSA colleagues took classes taught by Beverly at Princeton. I am a big fan of Beverly's books, including her accessible 2016 book When in Romans: An invitation to linger with the gospel according to Paul and her 2024 Romans: A Commentary. One of my colleagues said I should contact Beverly for an interview and she graciously accepted. Welcome Beverly! I am so excited to meet you.  Romans scholarship has changed so much in the last few decades. I feel like I have spent a lifetime wrestling this amazing letter of spiritual reconciliation and freedom, only to experience the weight of the systematic theology laid on it as I learned about Reformed Theology as a young person. You have written a lot about the situatedness of Romans and Paul's sophisticated arguments to build connections between Jewish and Gentile communities in Rome. Reading your commentary and other recent scholarship has helped me see Romans in a new light. I've also heard from others how a fresh look at Romans has redeemed Paul in their eyes.  As you wrote: "Writing a commentary on Paul's letter to the Romans is a bit like trying to capture the Atlantic Ocean with a liter bottle." Rather than boil the ocean, I'd rather ask about a few new insights I got from you. Hopefully, we can touch on the fascination that invites us to take off some of the interpretive shackles.  1. Starting with a general question. How have you seen this fresh perspective change students minds? How do you help people see the importance of the situatedness of Paul's letters?  Was that your goal for writing When in Romans?  2. You pay particular attention to Paul's diatribe in Romans 1:18-32 and the sudden jarring turn in 2:1 from third person "they" to second person plural "you all" which you translated as "You there!" I noticed how you reach back to this in subsequent chapters. How does this set up Paul's argument? Especially in Romans 9-11 when it seems to reverse again, putting the finger on the arrogance of Gentiles. Does understanding this help us avoid the theological cherry picking that is often done with the early chapters of Romans? 3. I was blown away by your description and the usage of the hilasterion in Romans 3:25. Understanding the nuance of Christ being put forward as the very cover of the ark of the covenant rather than a figurative reference seems to be a very important detail. How does the importance of place help us see atonement in a new way? Hilasterion has been translated many different ways ("propitiation" in KJV, NASB, ESV; "expiation" in RSV; "sacrifice of atonement" in NRSVue; "mercy seat" in CSB; "place of sacrifice" in CEB). What does this say about theology in translation? 4. I love Romans 8 as I think most people do. It seems like such relief and a highlight. N. T. Wright has called it the "essential chapter." This seems like a theological statement to me. Do you agree with this characterization? Should we see it as a culmination of the previous chapters about Sin and Death?  5. I am intrigued by the gentleness and grace of Chapter 14. Your heading "Differences over Dinner" is followed by "The Danger of Being Right." This caught my attention because I think we should highlight it more that we typically do. Is chapter 14 a kind of punchline for the letter? Using Chapters 12-13 as the build up toward 14. 6. You consistently mention Phoebe's perspective as the carrier, reader and likely editor of the letter throughout your commentary. A careful reading of Chapter 16 should obliterate any notion of excluding women from church leadership. I love the way you say we should be naming our baby girls Tryphaena, Tryphosa, and especially Junia. I've spoken on the words Deacon, Benefactor, "among the Apostles", and the social location of Phoebe and Junia. This seems to redeem Paul the most in many women's eyes. Can you comment on the effect that your writing about this has had on our views of women in leadership? References:  Romans: A Commentary (The New Testament Library) by Beverly Roberts Gaventa, 2024 When in Romans: An invitation to linger with the gospel according to Paul by Beverly Roberts Gaventa, 2016

  2. Jul 18

    Historical Jesus answers the wrong question: How Narrative Criticism led to Modern Christianity

    Send us Fan Mail The Jesus Seminar and its work to elucidate a historical Jesus ran out of steam. Robert Funk, Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan and others did done a lot of great work to put the gospels in historical context. They famously voted on the historical plausibility of the Jesus narrative using colored beads. But by the time the Jesus Seminar disbanded in 2006 after twenty years, they really have seemed to only show how tenuous the historical Jesus really is. I argue in this insightful podcast episode that the main problem of the Jesus Seminar is that they were answering the wrong question. They fall into the same trap of historical criticism that fundamentalists do. They rely on fact rather than narrative. This is a major fallacy of biblical apologetics. I describe how Walter Brueggemann's book "The Prophetic Imagination" was a watershed describing the shift to Narrative Criticism and other biblical interpretation methods that are much more widely adopted in today's scholarship. I was talking with someone who I really care about. He was frustrated that the liberal church he grew up in was obsessed with Historical Jesus, and the Jesus Seminar with Marcus Borg & John Dominic Crossan. He thought it cheapened the divinity of Christ, he was stunned when I agreed. The Historical Jesus sought to answer the wrong question however. It had its purpose, but whether Jesus, his life and the bible is historically correct is a fools game that comes from the enlightenment. It's the same game as fundamentalists play. It adds to scripture rather than illuminates it. That's why I love Walter Brueggemann’s work so much. It's the narrative that's important not historical fact. Even history is narrative depends on the author & the perspective of the reader. A very important lesson I learned in seminary. Prophetic Imagination is not a luxury, but the heart of biblical interpretation. God speaks to us in stories not bulletin points on PowerPoint.

  3. Jul 11

    Decolonizing Christianity: Another look at Romans 3 and the meaning of Yom Kippur

    Send us Fan Mail We really must decolonize Christianity if we are ever going to free ourselves from Christian Nationalism and help people grow spiritually. Romans 3 is the heart of the doctrine of Total Depravity and the Penal Substitutionary theory of Atonement. This came from Augustine, Anselm and then culminated in Calvin. But it depends on a deeply antisemitic reading of Romans 3 and the coopting of Paul's message for systematic theology. In this episode, I describe a modern, open and affirming faith, that is free from the bondage of these outdated theologies. We can escape the tyranny of bad theology to develop a more holistic faith.  Many people think Romans 3:10-18 “There is no one who is righteous, not even one” as proof of Total Depravity and Romans 3:25 “Christ Jesus whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith” as proof of PSA without a second thought. But Calvin literally ignored half of Paul's argument and then universalized it to create his theology. But if you read closely Romans is a grand argument between Paul & an imaginary opponent which scholars call the interlocutor. Paul purposely cherrypicked the Old Testament to create his diatribe of depravity as one side of the argument. He references the Hiiasterion, the Mercy Seat of Yom Kippur to show how Christ covers sin not substitutionary propitiation.

  4. Jul 4

    Wagging the Dog: Why Israel plays an outsized role in the world - a modern Christian perspective

    Send us Fan Mail Israel is constantly in the news. Some people are very annoyed by this, others are dismissive, and others are hyperpartisan about it. While it feels like current events, Israel has actually had an outsized role for thousands. Israel has vexed some of the largest and most important empires throughout history. The Babylonians, Egyptians, Romans, the Catholic Church, Spaniards, Europeans and now Americans have all had a puzzling relationship with Israel and Judaism. And it continues. Today, our relationship with Israel is dividing the American left and causing the current administration to wage an ill-advised war against Iran. In this episode, I provide a personal perspective on Israel and its defense industry. I compare my conflicted feelings about modern Israel with Paul's feelings expressed in Romans 9. 9 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience confirms it by the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own brothers and sisters, my own flesh and blood. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Christ, who is over all, God blessed forever.[a] Amen. 30 What then are we to say? Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith, 31 but Israel, who did strive for the law of righteousness, did not attain that law. 32 Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, “See, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall,     and whoever trusts in him[c] will not be put to shame.”

  5. Jun 27

    What is Sin? Instinct and Intention - Modern Christianity and Science

    Send us Fan Mail Romans 6 begins the heart of Paul's letter. Paul speaks in an imaginary dialogue in his arguments to the Romans. He asks a rhetorical question like "Should we continue in Sin in order that grace may abound?" and then says "By no means!" again and again. Sin is portrayed like a character and Christ is the alternative that defeats Sin. We don't have to be slaves to Sin anymore! In this episode, I talk about Sin expansively. What make destructive behavior in animals not sinful? Why is it sinful when humans do these things? Most people will say it is because animals have no choice and they operate out of instinct, but humans are far more instinctual than we realize. So there much be another explanation. Matthew Croasmun's book provides a fascinating discussion about the emergence of Sin in the Christian consciousness. I also reference my discussion with Mattie Mae Motl in Season 2, Episode 15 and her recent Substack article on Romans 6 & 7. Resource:  The Emergence of Sin: The Cosmic Tyrant in Romans by Matthew Croasmun, 2019 For the past several months there has been a civil war in Uganda. This civil war is different than you expect. Chimpanzees in Uganda's Kibale National Park have been brutally killing each other for months. These wars happen periodically every few decades. Primatologists from around the world have been studying it with great interest. What is interesting about these is that they have all the features of human warfare: strategy, battle tactics, weapons preparation and stockpiling, truces, alliances, and even peace treaties between these chimp clans.  The difference between chimpanzee and human warfare is the scale, the tools, and the sophistication of the weaponry. The underlying motives and rhythms of war are strikingly similar. Is this immoral? Is it immoral for a chimp to kill another chimp?  Another example is that cats are often extremely cruel to their prey. Laming, torturing, and playing with their prey before killing them. Often just leaving the carcass uneaten. It looks like killing for fun. Is this immoral? When humans do these things, we think it is grossly immoral. What's different? Most of us say that humans are not cats or chimps. We have a choice. They are merely acting out of instinct. We are held to a moral standard that animals aren't.Is this true? Are we really less instinctual than animals? We are finding out that we probably aren't necessarily.  Studies of human behavior show that when children who are less than 2-1/2 years old are consistently exposed to certain people like siblings and parents and friends, when the children become adults, they are far less likely to be sexually attracted to the people they knew as young children. Rather than social conditioning, the evidence is that we are biologically programmed to avoid incest. Disgust at incest between siblings and of children toward their parents and caretakers is instinctual. Our biology has a bias against inbreeding built in. The disgust response is so strong that we behave in many ways that we have no conscious control over. We all agree that incest is an abomination, but it usually has less to do with moral rectitude and righteousness than being in tune with our biology. Sadly, this doesn't work as well for adults toward children, or step parents, or aunts and uncles who did not have that early bond. So their disgust must come from morality and law. And children need to be listened to and protected.  This is a bit of extreme example, but what is it that constitutes Sin is more than just our sinful nature or depravity. It is about empathy and care. It is also utilitarian. We simply don't want to hurt other people or our own wellbeing. That is why basic moral principles and laws are remarkably similar between societies that don't have historic contact between each other, regardless of religion or language or history. The differences are usually small and outbursts of gross societal immorality are usually based on trauma retribution and revenge.  We must always ask, is Sin always a matter of choice? Are people who are psychopaths or have mental illness who do reprehensible things sinning? It is the brokenness of humanity that we see in Sin. It is always there. And it seems that sinning isn't just Sin, or breaking the law, but it is also anything that hurts other people and yourself. It is going against the organism, and the superorganism of community. More on this later.  In Romans 6, Paul gives us one of the most cogent descriptions of Sin in ancient literature. He does this in a fascinating way that is worth exploring. Rather than just individual actions, small letter-s sin, he portrays sin as big letter-S Sin, like a character in the narrative. In the same way, he portrays Death as a character. In this way, Paul contrasts the character Sin and its brother Death in contrast to Christ and Life. This is formulation of Greek philosophy, especially from Plato, that is so familiar to us as Americans, it is hard to recognize.  Making Sin a character acknowledges that it stands apart from choice. Paul will tell us in Romans 7:15, “I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.” This is an early acknowledgment that we aren’t in control of ourselves and a pre-scientific insight that humans are far more instinctual than our consciousness recognizes. The truth is that we can’t control our attractions but we can only respond to them.  The practical aspect of seeing Sin as Paul describes it is that Sin is Sin much like Shame is Shame. It just is. Because we live in Christ we can acknowledge Sin, and we can feel shame but then move on, forgiven. We are no longer enslaved by it. We can feel sorry and maybe guilty, but that is not the end. We can let it go without pretending that it doesn’t exist.  I told you about the ambiguities of human nature vs. animal behavior, instinct vs. choice at the start of this sermon. We have all been biologically programmed for survival. Like all organisms we are very concerned with the self-preservation of our bodies. But our organism extends far beyond the individual, because we are inherently social beings. We live within the super-organism of society and also the earth around us. We are never just unto ourselves. Even the 10 trillion cells in your body aren’t only for themselves. That’s not all you are. Your body is host to something like another 40 trillion cells, bacteria, yeasts, molds, etc, meaning that you are a complete eco-system in your own body. So our super-organism is not just with other people, but with the organisms and environment of the whole earth. We can’t live without it. None of us is only unto ourselves. The denial of this and acting against this integrated super organism is the big S Sin. It is far more than just breaking the rules. I’ll close with another biological analogy to help understand what this means. Beehives are a fascinating super organism. Bees act as a team and they hyper organized. They innately organize themselves. And like we do, they depend on their environment, plants and a whole host of other organisms, even microorganisms in their own bodies to build hives. Individuals regularly sacrifice themselves and their own individual well-being for the sake of the hive and service to the queen bee. We would call this altruism. But it is really no different than loyalty or even patriotism. We think that bees do this purely by instinct and humans do it rationally. But we do far more by instinct, social pressure, altruism, loyalty that we realize. We also do things that are destructive and selfish, sometimes willfully and other other times instinctually far more than we realize. This is Sin.  Being in Christ not only frees us from Death, but also frees us from having to sort out every twist and turn of our own behavior. Christ frees us from Shame. Because we know what whether willful or not, we are already forgiven. That we are set free from the tyranny of Sin hanging over our heads. To live in harmony with our bodies, with our fellow human beings, but also with our environment and earth. Being free from the destructive forces that tell us that we and all that is around us are not valuable. That death is never the end of the story. To be a fully integrated person, wounded and healed, sinful and forgiven, dead and resurrected. This is what living in Christ is.

  6. Jun 20

    Where is Home? Ezra and the Returning Exiles. The Bible is more Persian than you think.

    Send us Fan Mail The conquering of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was the worst thing that ever happened to the ancient Israelite people. Some of the people were dragged off to Babylon and many of them were left behind. For 50 long years, they were separated. Then suddenly King Cyrus allowed the people who were taken away to go home, back to Jerusalem. Would the people be able to get along with the people who stayed behind. In this episode, I tell you about the troubles of the chief priest Ezra, what it was like to have people against him. It is the like the story of a teacher of mine, who moved to Korea. They felt in between. They weren't sure they felt American or whether they felt Korean. Many people who come from other countries feel like this. Perhaps you have felt confused about where you fit. The books of Ezra and Nehemiah is all about finding a new sense of home.  Reference: Roger S. Nam, "The Theology of the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah (Old Testament Theology)", 2024 Ezra 1: 1 In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia’s rule, to fulfill the Lord’s word spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Persia’s King Cyrus. The king issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom (it was also in writing) that stated: 2 Persia’s King Cyrus says: The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth. He has commanded me to build him a house at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 If there are any of you who are from his people, may their God be with them! They may go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the house of the Lord, the God of Israel—he is the God who is in Jerusalem. 4 And as for all those who remain in the various places where they are living, let the people of those places supply them with silver and gold, and with goods and livestock, together with spontaneous gifts for God’s house in Jerusalem

  7. Jun 13

    Humor of Paul’s Diatribes in Romans 1:18-32 and 3:9-18

    Send us Fan Mail People take the Bible way too seriously. By reading it out loud and you can see the humor and irony. Paul was a master at using hyperbole to shake up his audience. He often uses "vice lists" where he throws the kitchen sink in obliterate a con  Romans 1:18-32 is the famous diatribe against pagan worship. While its audience is not clear, it purpose is. It sets up the rest of the letter. In this fun episode, I do a dramatic reading of two passages to highlight how it must have sounded to the listeners in Rome when Phoebe read it to them. I also give a few other examples of diatribe being used in the New Testament. I also make an endorsement for Eugene Peterson's The Message, which does such a good job of making Bible reading fun.  Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Their females exchanged natural intercourse[e] for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the males, giving up natural intercourse[f] with females, were consumed with their passionate desires for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to an unfit mind and to do things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of injustice, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters,[g] insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die, yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them. Romans 3:9 What then? Are we any better off?[c] No, not at all, for we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, 10 as it is written: “There is no one who is righteous, not even one; 11     there is no one who has understanding;         there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;     there is no one who shows kindness;         there is not even one.” 13 “Their throats are opened graves;     they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of vipers is under their lips.” 14     “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16     ruin and misery are in their paths, 17 and the way of peace they have not known.” 18     “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” This hodgepodge comes from a scattering of cherry picked verses. This is where I will take you down a rabbit hole for a moment. I promise, it is worth it. First is total depravity.  Paul cites a grab bag of verses in Old Testament, from Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalms 5, 14, 53, and 140 and sprinkles in a little Proverbs 1 and Isaiah 59 for seasoning. That’s an awful lot for just 9 verses. Revelation 21:6 Then he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless,[f] the polluted, the murderers, the sexually immoral,[g] the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,[c] so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral[d] and murderers and idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. The Message, Romans 5:12-14 You know the story of how Adam landed us in the dilemma we’re in—first sin, then death, and no one exempt from either sin or death. That sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn’t sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God. But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

  8. Jun 6

    Word-for-Word vs. Meaning-for-Meaning Bibles - What it means & how Theology is injected in the text

    Send us Fan Mail Bible publishing is big business. Hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on marketing both in advertising and promotion and giving away free copies every year. One way to build confidence in a Bible version is to say that it is the most word-for-word version and by implication the most reliable version. This is contrasted with meaning-for-meaning. The New American Standard Bible (NASB) and its predecessors is routinely described as the most word-for-word. As a version that most strictly applies word equivalents to Hebrew and Greek, this is mostly true. But is it really more accurate? Does the reader gain a better understanding of the text? In this informative episode, I argue that word-for-word versions often inject more theological bias than illumination. I highlight a contentious verse, Romans 3:25, as an example. I also touch on two other verses where the NASB is less word-for-word than the far more scholarly based NRSVue Bible. The best version is the one that clearly transmits the intent of the author as much as we can discern.  CSB God presented him as the mercy seat by his blood, through faith, to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. CEB Through his faithfulness, God displayed Jesus as the place of sacrifice where mercy is found by means of his blood. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness in passing over sins that happened before, LSB/NASB whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith, for a demonstration of His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; NRSVUE whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; Beverly Gaventa, along with many scholars, interprets hilasterion in Romans 3:25 primarily as a reference to the mercy seat (kapporet) of the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant, rather than just "propitiation" or "expiation." In this view, Christ is the "place" where atonement is made, bringing together divine justice and mercy.  Key aspects of this interpretation include: • The "Place" of Atonement: Rather than a mere action, hilasterion functions as a location where God’s glory dwells, and through Christ’s blood, this becomes accessible to all believers. • Replacement of the Temple: This imagery signifies that the cross replaces the Temple as the functional place of atonement, setting it in public view rather than in the hidden Holy of Holies. • Atonement Context: It ties Christ’s sacrifice to the Day of Atonement rituals, focusing on the purification and reconciliation of sinners and the overcoming of sin's power. Leviticus 19:16 CSB Do not go about spreading slander among your people; do not jeopardize your neighbor’s life; I am the Lord. CEB Do not go around slandering your people. Do not stand by while your neighbor’s blood is shed; I am the Lord. NRSVUE You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand idly by when the blood of your neighbor is at stake: I am the Lord. Romans 16:7  CSB Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me. LSB Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding to the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. NASB Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding in the view of the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. NRSVUE Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Israelites who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. MSG Hello to my&

See All (108)

Ratings & Reviews

4.7
out of 5
13 Ratings

About

Exploring Bible interpretation and modern Christian faith, I am a Presbyterian USA minister who interprets the Bible in all of its messy and varied voices. I teach and preach spiritual growth to people who want an open and affirming Christianity. My social media tagline is "People say lots of things about the Bible that aren't really there."  My full-length sermons and live stream are available on YouTube: @robchrist8999 and @edmondspresbyterian132Contact me at: epc-pcusa.org, pastorepc@frontier.com

Information

You Might Also Like