The It Depends Podcast with Matt Healey

First Person Consulting

Each episode Matt grapples with questions that have no clear answers. For those working in evaluation, systems change, design or complexity this is a great place for you to learn to sit with uncertainty. A podcast where the answer to each question starts with ”it depends...”

  1. May 26

    #21 Making Space, Valuing Place: A Preview of AES26 in Darwin with Christabelle Darcy and Alison Reedy

    In this episode, Matt speaks with Christabelle Darcy and Alison Reedy — co-convenors of the 2026 Australian Evaluation Society Conference being held in Darwin from 14–18 September. Christabelle leads the Program Evaluation Unit at the NT Department of Treasury and Finance, and Alison manages evaluation at the NT Department of Housing, Local Government and Community Development. Under the theme Making Space, Valuing Place, Christabelle and Alison walk us through the thinking behind this year's program — the four subthemes, the keynote line-up, and why they wanted a conference that welcomes a broader audience into evaluation conversations. We talk about what it means to do evaluation in place, the role of Indigenous voices and authority in the work, and how the program is designed to encourage people to step outside their usual silos. Christabelle and Alison also share what they're personally hoping to take from the experience — from the richness of working with this year's keynote speakers to the conversations that happen in the margins. Their message is clear: the evaluation community is wider than the people who already call themselves evaluators, and AES26 is built to bring that wider community into the room. In this episode we cover: The thinking behind the theme Making Space, Valuing Place The four subthemes: Traditions and new ways; Ethics and integrity; Boundaries and bridges; Roots and routes The 2026 keynote line-up — Robyn Ober, Bagele Chilisa, Lígia Teixeira, Selwyn Button, and Emily Gates Why context and Country matter in evaluation What a smaller conference makes possible What Christabelle and Alison are personally hoping to take away Resources mentioned: AES 2026 Conference Australian Evaluation Society It Depends Episode 7 with Emily Gates If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find FPC on LinkedIn, or visit our website.

    39 min
  2. #20 Be Bold and Lift the Bar: Lived Experience, Dignity and Systems Change with Diana Connell

    May 15

    #20 Be Bold and Lift the Bar: Lived Experience, Dignity and Systems Change with Diana Connell

    In this special episode, Matt and Tenille speak with Diana Connell - lived experience advocate, ambassador for McAuley Community Services for Women and Global Sisters, and a powerful voice for systems change across family violence, housing and economic security. Diana shares her story of surviving two decades of family violence, becoming homeless with her two children, and the journey that led her into her advocacy and systems change work. She walks us through what genuine co-design with lived experience actually looks like, the importance of creating space for change, slowing down, and crucially what dignity actually looks like. We talk about the Safe at Home Trial in Geelong (a continuation of the conversation from Episode 18 with Jocelyn Bignold), the deep interconnection between family violence, housing and economic security, and the work of Global Sisters in supporting women into economic independence through micro-business, business school and the Little Greenhouses initiative. Diana's message is clear: women deserve more than just to survive. We all need to be bold, lift the bar, and build something incredible together. In this episode we cover: The link between family violence, homelessness and economic insecurity What genuine co-design with lived experience looks like in practice The Safe at Home Trial and the case for early intervention Global Sisters and economic independence for women Fair pay, trauma-informed practice, and meaningful inclusion Why one seat at the table is never enough Resources mentioned: McAuley Community Services for Women Global Sisters Safe at Home Trial WEstjustice Community Legal Centre Council to Homeless Persons It Depends Episode 18 with Jocelyn Bignold If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find FPC on LinkedIn, or visit our website.

    52 min
  3. #19 Beyond Sticky Notes: Beauty, Power, Patience and Practice with KA McKercher

    Apr 22

    #19 Beyond Sticky Notes: Beauty, Power, Patience and Practice with KA McKercher

    What if most communities don't actually need a new co-design project — just someone to notice and strengthen what's already there? KA McKercher is a co-design and co-production facilitator, trainer and professional supervisor, founder of Beyond Sticky Notes, and author of the book of the same name. In this conversation, they unpack why good co-design is as much about beauty, choice and relationships as it is about methods — and draw on more than 15 years of practice to explain how "purpose" can quietly hide power, why endings matter as much as beginnings, and what it takes to build disability justice into how we do this work. We also get into the implicit promise that comes with the word "co-design," why seasonality should shape the pace of change, and when not to co-design. We cover: The difference between doing co-design and just running a process that borrows the language "Whose purpose is this?" as the most important upstream question Choice, access and disability justice as core principles, not add-ons Endings, promises and what it takes to do them with dignity When not to co-design, and what to do instead If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find FPC on LinkedIn, or visit our website. Resources Mentioned Beyond Sticky Notes — KA's practice, courses and free resources on co-design Beyond Sticky Notes (the book) — KA's accessible guide to doing co-design for real Kowa Collaboration — Skye Trudgett's practice, referenced by KA The Relationship Is the Project — recommended by KA as an essential read Mia Mingus — on accountability, conflict and transformative justice It Depends: Episode 14 with Jesse Robinson — on sitting in relationships before the formal work begins It Depends: Episode 9 with Emma Blomkamp — on being clear about your purpose in co-design It Depends: Episode 3 with Skye Trudgett — on Indigenous data sovereignty and Indigenous-led evaluation For the full list of resources, visit the episode page.

    46 min
  4. #18 The Gap in the Middle Is Homelessness: From Systems Mapping to Safe at Home with Jocelyn Bignold

    Apr 7

    #18 The Gap in the Middle Is Homelessness: From Systems Mapping to Safe at Home with Jocelyn Bignold

    Family violence is the leading cause of homelessness in Australia. Everything in the system — community expectations, child protection, housing support payments — pushes women to leave. And yet there's nowhere affordable for them to go. The gap in the middle is homelessness. In this episode, we speak with Jocelyn Bignold, CEO of McAuley Community Services for Women, about the deep intersection between family violence and homelessness, and what happens when we flip the script. Jocelyn walks us through the Safe at Home trial in Geelong and Barwon, which is supporting whole families to stay safe — with zero critical incidents and no homelessness across 23 households so far. We also dig into how systems mapping became McAuley's "North Star," why early intervention means different things to different parts of the system, and what it takes to turn curiosity into action when the problem feels too big. Key topics: The intersection of family violence and homelessness How the Safe at Home trial works — and what it's revealing Systems mapping as a tool for seeing the bigger picture Redefining early intervention through lived experience Scaling from a pilot without losing what makes it work The role of curiosity, boldness, and partnerships in systems change Links & resources: Safe at Home McAuley Community Services for Women AIHW Specialist Homelessness Services Annual Report Systems Sandbox Episode: Systems Thinking as Process and Product with Jocelyn Bignold — Apple Podcasts | Spotify Subscribe so you never miss an episode: Spotify Apple Podcasts Podbean Connect with us on LinkedIn

    52 min
  5. #17 From Why to How: Engaging Men and Boys in Violence Prevention with Michael Flood

    Mar 23

    #17 From Why to How: Engaging Men and Boys in Violence Prevention with Michael Flood

    What does it take to engage men and boys in preventing domestic and sexual violence — and what separates the work that actually shifts things from the kind that doesn’t? Professor Michael Flood is an internationally recognised researcher at Queensland University of Technology and one of Australia’s leading voices on men, masculinities, and violence prevention. With over 30 years of experience spanning research, community education, and pro-feminist advocacy, he has spent his career not just studying this field but actively building it. In this conversation, he traces the shift from arguing why men and boys should be engaged in this work to the harder, more important question of how — and what makes some approaches genuinely effective while others fall short. Michael explores the distinct challenges of violence prevention compared to other men’s health work, why most men privately reject violence-supportive attitudes but stay silent anyway, how the man box constrains the men inside it as much as those around them, and why the language we reach for — from “toxic masculinity” to “healthy masculinity” — can either open doors or close them. He also reflects on the broader conversation about men in crisis, what’s driving it, and why building communities of support among men may matter more than we realise. If you like what you hear, sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find Matt and Tenille on LinkedIn, or visit our website. Resources mentioned in this episode: XY Online — one of the world’s largest resources on men and masculinities, for parents, educators, policymakers, and everyday people The Man Box — Jesuit Social Services research on the costs of rigid masculine norms for men, boys, and those around them Our Watch — Australia’s national organisation for the primary prevention of violence against women and children White Ribbon Australia — campaign mobilising men to take active roles in preventing domestic and sexual violence

    42 min
  6. #16 A New Currency: Reframing How We Value Systems Change with Heidi Peterson

    Mar 2

    #16 A New Currency: Reframing How We Value Systems Change with Heidi Peterson

    What does it take to demonstrate value for money in systems change approaches? Where do we start when the work is unpredictable, non-linear, and aimed at shifting mindsets rather than just hitting targets? Heidi Peterson is Lead Principal Consultant at Clear Horizon and a recent PhD candidate who has spent years wrestling with the "rock and hard place" of complexity versus efficiency. In this conversation, she breaks down why traditional cost-benefit analyses often fail systems change initiatives and introduces a new framework designed to capture value that usually sits "beneath the surface". Heidi explores the shift from the evaluator as an objective "judge" to a "co-constructor" of value, why the best way to value a system is to get the system in the room, and how to stay pragmatic when resources are tight but the stakes are high. If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find Matt and Tenille on LinkedIn, or visit our website. Resources mentioned in this episode: A Framework to Assess the Value for Money of Systems Change Efforts — Heidi's published paper in Evaluation (Peterson, 2025) WorkWell Summative Report — the case study discussed throughout this episode WorkWell Value for Money Assessment Report OPM Guide to Assessing Value for Money — Julian King's value for investment approach Evaluative Inquiry for Systemic Change — excerpt from Emily Gates' book Improving Child Safety: Deliberation, Judgment and Empirical Research — Munro, Hardy & Cartwright Learn more about related episodes on our website: Value for Investment with Julian King Rethinking Systems Evaluation with Emily Gates

    43 min
  7. #15 Aligning Place, Evidence, and Change: Lessons from the UK with John Hitchin

    Feb 21

    #15 Aligning Place, Evidence, and Change: Lessons from the UK with John Hitchin

    What does it take to align place-based approaches with the right kind of evidence — and why does getting that wrong cause so many problems? John Hitchin is co-founder of Stories of Change and co-author of the Place and Evidence in the UK report. In this conversation, he unpacks what genuinely makes work place-based versus just happening in a place, and walks us through a new taxonomy of five categories of place-based change — each requiring different mechanisms and different forms of evidence. John draws on over 20 years of experience to explain why misalignment between what funders want to achieve and how they ask practitioners to prove it is one of the biggest barriers in this space. We also get into backbone organisations versus "connective scaffolding," why competitive funding environments sit uneasily with collaborative place-based work, and whether the current policy moment in the UK is a genuine turning point or just another cycle. We cover: The distinction between working in a place and doing place-based work Five categories of place-based change and the evidence each needs Mechanisms vs activities — how change actually "gets into" a place What funders should ask themselves before deciding what to measure Backbone organisations vs connective scaffolding models like Grapevine Building shared language for a field of practice (without shared frameworks) Why relationships sit at the heart of all place-based work If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find Matt and Tenille on LinkedIn, or visit our website. Resources Mentioned Stories of Change — John's partnership focused on strategy, evidence, and narrative for social impact Place and Evidence in the UK — the report discussed throughout this episode (Hitchin, Little & Waldie, 2025) Place and Evidence Substack — ongoing writing and thinking from John and colleagues Place Matters — commissioned the report Historical Review of Place-Based Approaches — Lankelly Chase (2017) The Mycelial Network — a UK network of community asset developers We're Right Here — a campaign for community power The Relationships Project — exploring the role of relationships in public services Grapevine, Coventry & Warwickshire — connective scaffolding in practice

    51 min
  8. #14 To Be a Good Human: Co-Design, Two-Way Learning, and Redistributing Power with Jessie Robinson

    Feb 1

    #14 To Be a Good Human: Co-Design, Two-Way Learning, and Redistributing Power with Jessie Robinson

    What does it really mean to do co-design well — and when might stepping back be more powerful than stepping in? Jessie Robinson is a proud Wiradjuri man and founder of Mawang Consulting. In this conversation, he challenges us to think differently about co-design — not as a process or framework, but as a fundamentally relational practice rooted in power redistribution. Jessie shares how First Nations ways of being and doing have shaped his approach, and why he believes communities often already have the solutions — they just need the resources and space to act on them. We also get into the messier side of this work: having hard conversations with commissioners, sitting in discomfort, and what it actually looks like to practise two-way learning rather than just talk about it. We cover: Co-design as power redistribution, not methodology When to resource what already exists rather than design something new Indigenous knowledge systems and what practitioners can learn from them The step before 'discovery' — sitting and sharing space with community Collaboration vs competition in how work gets commissioned What two-way learning means in practice If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find Matt and Tenille on LinkedIn, or visit our website. Resources Mentioned Mawang Consulting — Jessie's First Nations owned consultancy Beyond Sticky Notes — KA McKercher's book on co-design KA McKercher — co-design practitioner and author

    50 min
See All (23)

About

Each episode Matt grapples with questions that have no clear answers. For those working in evaluation, systems change, design or complexity this is a great place for you to learn to sit with uncertainty. A podcast where the answer to each question starts with ”it depends...”

Information

You Might Also Like