Complicating The Narrative

Salma Abdalla

In this podcast, hosted by Dr. Salma Abdalla—Assistant Professor and Director of the Healthier Futures Lab at Washington University in St. Louis—we provide rigorous, evidence-based analysis of complex population health challenges. In a time of social, economic, and political upheaval—marked by eroding public trust, polarized narratives, and growing uncertainty—this podcast aims to challenge oversimplified narratives about the forces that shape the health of populations. Salma engages guests from across disciplines in rigorous, evidence-based conversations that challenge conventional wisdom. The conversations sometimes pose uncomfortable questions, seek nuanced perspectives, and question not just what we think, but how we arrive at our conclusions in public health. We explore the inherent complexities, real-world tradeoffs, and unintended consequences of public health interventions. Our goal is to empower listeners with nuanced understanding, helping them navigate these multifaceted issues in an informed and balanced way. The podcast is supported by the Washington University School of Public Health — https://schoolofpublichealth.washu.edu — and the Frick Initiative. Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras and Zachary Linhares Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ Contact us at: s.abdalla@wustl.edu

  1. 15 hr ago

    Purple Public Health episode—Research funding and incentives with Michael Lauer

    Almost nothing about how the United States government funds health research was chosen. The National Institutes of Health (NIH) began with leftover penicillin money and a letter to medical school deans. The decision to fund projects rather than people came from a foundation protecting itself during the Depression. The paperwork came from a congressman who was annoyed in 1962. Michael Lauer spent nearly two decades at the NIH, serving as Deputy Director for Extramural Research from 2015 until 2025. He joins Salma to trace how these accidents hardened into a system that leaves scientists dependent on grants for their salaries, concentrates most of the money in a small number of hands, and does not grant most researchers independence until their mid-forties. They discuss what could be done differently, and the question that has gone unanswered since the 1940s: who should decide what science gets done. Dr. Lauer suggests that the current situation being faced by the NIH and researchers is the result of these structural problems and highlights that while there is a crisis, it is also an opportunity to restructure funding and research incentives. This episode asks whether the current inflection point in research funding might be the opening needed to rethink a system that was never quite designed to work.   Notes: Acronyms used in this episode include: CTSA = Clinical and Translational Science Awards IACUCs = Institutional Animal Care and Use Committees IRB = Institutional Review Board MIRA = Maximizing Investigators' Research Award NASA = National Aeronautics and Space Administration NCI = National Cancer Institute NHLBI = National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute NIAID = National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases NIGMS = National Institute of General Medical Sciences NIH = National Institutes of Health NSF = National Science Foundation PCORI = Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute R01 = Research Project Grant Fact checks: Glenn Seaborg was Chancellor of the University of California at Berkeley between 1958 and 1961   About the guest: Michael Lauer is a cardiologist and physician-scientist who served as the Director of the Office of Extramural Research and the Deputy Director for Extramural Research at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) between October 2015 and February 2025. As Director for Extramural Research he led the NIH funding processes for universities, medical schools, and research organizations outside of the United States government.   Useful resources: Bush V. Science, The Endless Frontier - 75th Anniversary Edition. National Science Foundation. Published online 2023. https://nsf-gov-resources.nsf.gov/2023-04/EndlessFrontier75th_w.pdf Kratsios M. Science, A New Golden Age. Office of Science and Technology Policy; 2026. https://www.whitehouse.gov/science/   Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/   The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

    Purple Public Health episode—Research funding and incentives with Michael Lauer

  2. 3 days ago

    With, not for: communities as public health co-designers with Sara Bannoura and Darren Jackson

    Sara and Darren join Salma to discuss Civic City’s community-first model. They start the conversation by exploring how Civic City uses knowledge, narrative, and design to co-create solutions with communities. To make this tangible, they delve into the Food City STL initiative, which started off by deep community listening and led to a city resolution declaring food as a human right. Pertaining to the role of academic research and knowledge generation, Sara and Darren talk about their collaboration with University of Missouri St. Louis, which began as something transactional and evolved to a true co-creation partnership. They also highlight the value of data, acknowledging that “data is gold”, and argue that communities sit on valuable knowledge that institutions often extract without returning value instead of sharing the findings back with the communities. Finally, they emphasize that knowledge, agency, and capacity are the three things needed to move from knowledge to action, and underscore the importance of creating new spaces to foster interaction and collaboration between academia, journalism, and community. However, they note that these interactions must acknowledge that knowledge generation and co-creation processes are scalable, but the solutions that result from them are not. If you’ve wondered what true community involvement in research looks like, and how it can evolve to ensure true co-creation of knowledge, this episode will give you concrete ideas to help catalyze this shift.   About the guests: Darren Jackson is Founder of Civic City, a community-first civic venture studio in St. Louis that works with communities, industry, and government to build solutions and opportunities to public challenges. He is a civic innovation leader specializing in human-centered design, applying data, empathy, and creative problem-solving to help communities and institutions build cities for all. He previously served as Executive Sourcing Partner and Advisor to Meta, Adobe, Block, and IDEO, aiming to bridge innovation with civic impact. Sara Bannoura is Co-Founder of Civic City, where she helps lead the Food for All campaign. She is a journalist and civic systems leader who explores how storytelling, community knowledge, and lived experience shape public systems and policy. She previously served as senior producer in local television news, produced a feature documentary on the fentanyl crisis in St. Louis, and led coverage during the COVID-19 pandemic and reported daily on public health data and disparities while documenting the lived realities of communities navigating unequal access to essential resources.   Notes: Acronyms mentioned in this episode include: CDC = Centers for Disease Control and Prevention CEO = Chief Executive Officer COO = Chief Operating Officer DRC = Democratic Republic of Congo USML = University of Missouri, St Louis   Useful resources: 1.For the Sake of All: A Report on the Health and Well-Being of African Americans in St. Louis and Why It Matters for Everyone. Washington University in St. Louis and Saint Louis University; 2015. https://bpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/sites.wustl.edu/dist/3/1454/files/2018/06/FSOA_report_2-17zd1xm.pdf   Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/   The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

    With, not for: communities as public health co-designers with Sara Bannoura and Darren Jackson

  3. 4 Aug

    The future of higher education with Mitchell Stevens and Sandro Galea

    This episode is a re-run of the Ideas Matter podcast episode “The Future of Higher Education” hosted by Dean Sandro Galea—Vice Provost for Interdisciplinary Initiatives at WashU and Co-Director of the Building Better Ways of Knowing initiative—in conversation with Professor Mitchell Stevens. The original episode was released by Ideas Matter on May 26, 2026.   In this episode, Dean Galea and Dr. Stevens discuss the current state of higher education, and the challenges and opportunities that result from thismoment of institutional change and fourth industrial revolution.   Looking back, Dean Galea and Dr. Stevens examine the values that have sustained higher education throughout its history, the historical role of education as a service, economic, civic and moral provider to the nation, and the main pathway towards economic mobility. They highlighted that the majority of the nation does not access or complete college, which has resulted in the economic, cultural, and political splits that have contributed to current polarization levels. They unpack challenges related to unaffordability, unrestrained costs, and the student-debt crisis; the moral/civic question of who should be responsible for the lifelong employability of American people; the threats posed to current higher education by the shrinking pool of youth and young adults, technological leaps, and the “casualization” of faculty.  Looking forward, they discuss the challenge that AI poses to the long-held idea that expert knowledge lives irreplaceably in human minds and Dr. Stevens suggests that a paradigm shift, moving away from school-centric logics of human capital towards new hybrid models and the investment in people’s capabilities across the life course, should be adopted.  If you wonder what higher education will look like amidst the fourth industrial revolution catalyzed by AI and the demographic shift, this episode will offer a clear framework to understand how we got here and how things might unfold.   About the guest:   Mitchell Stevens is Professor at the Graduate School of Education and Faculty Affiliate at the Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence (HAI) at Stanford University, where he also convenes the Pathways Network and the Futures Project on Education and the Learning Society. His research focuses on educational sequences, lifelong learning, alternative educational forms, and the formal organization of knowledge.    Notes:   Acronyms mentioned in this episode include:   - AI = Artificial intelligence   - K-12 = Kindergarten through 12th grade   - MOOC = Massive open online course     Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla   Editors: Ryan Rhea and Catalina Melendez Contreras   Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri   Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/     The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

    The future of higher education with Mitchell Stevens and Sandro Galea

  4. 28 Jul

    The inherent values of science and public health with Anya Plutynski

    How do values shape the actions and agenda of public health science?   Anya and Salma begin their conversation by discussing how values are inherently embedded in every decision that scientists make, but cannot be considered a contaminant of science, as they are an unavoidable part of how research is designed and conducted. To elaborate on this point, Anya explains the concept of inductive risk—the risk resulting from a value-laden choice—and highlights how it constantly shapes science, for example by setting the standard of evidence of p-values or the guidelines to classify mental health disorders. From there, they also discuss the current debate about the politicization of public health, acknowledging that science is inherently political and highlighting the importance of transparency about values to promote objectivity in research. Finally, they reflect on the factthat the public health field continues to ask meta-science questions that philosophy of science has been addressing for decades rather than engaging with other fields.     About the guest:   Anya Plutynski, PhD is Professor of Philosophy at the Washington University in St. Louis. Her research focuses on the philosophy of science, with an emphasis on the research conducted by biologists and biomedical researchers.     Notes:   Acronyms mentioned in this episode include:   DSM = Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders  HAM-D = Hamilton Depression Rating Scale   HITOP = Hierarchical Taxonomy of Psychopathology  NIH = National Institutes of Health  RCT = Randomized Controlled Trial   RDoC = Research Domain Criteria    Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla   Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras   Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri   Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/     The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

    The inherent values of science and public health with Anya Plutynski

  5. 21 Jul

    Past turning points, present tensions, and the future of public health with Merlin Chowkwanyun

    How and why have certain methods, topics, and assumptions been favored by public health throughout history, and how has that shaped the truths we know today? Merlin joins Salma to discuss how history provides the framework to understand how specific moments in time have shaped the research preferred by public health, illustrating that these priorities are not timeless but shift according to time-bound contexts. They use the Toxic Docs project as a prime example to highlight the value of archival data, showing how once-secret corporate records can expose the interference of industry interests on scientific activities and knowledge building. Shifting focus, they also examine the risks associated with the field's over-reliance on federal funding and the importance of understanding the legal and legislative frameworks governing these resources to better protect public health initiatives from political tensions and policy shifts. Finally, they discuss the friction between community knowledge and institutional expertise, emphasizing that neither "communities always know best" nor "experts are always right" serves as a sufficient answer.   About the guest: Merlin Chowkwanyun, PhD, MPH is the Donald H. Gemson Associate Professor of Sociomedical Sciences at the Mailman School of Public Health. Their research is focused on the history of health, with an emphasis on community and environmental health, racial inequity, and social activism for health.   Notes: Acronyms mentioned in this episode include: DEI = Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion MAHA = Make America Healthy Again NIH = National Institutes of Health RWJF = Robert Wood Johnson Foundation TSCA = Toxic Substances Control Act   Useful resources: Toxic Docs: Toxicdocs.org   Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/   The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

    Past turning points, present tensions, and the future of public health with Merlin Chowkwanyun

  6. 14 Jul

    History, stories and the shaping of public health with Rebecca Messbarger

    What is the relevance of history, and individual stories, when framing current public health research and practice?   Rebecca and Salma discuss the role of population-level history, and individual stories, in public health as part of the active tools for framing and translating research and interventions. To illustrate this, they use a historical case from 18th century Bologna and show how authority over the body and knowledge has shifted across time, and whose stories get remembered or erased. Similarly, they analyze examples from the 1348 plague, the 1918 influenza, and Covid to explore the long history of mistrust in medical authority. Overall, they make the case for the routine integration of humanists, artists, and historians into public health institutions, and argue for the potential of performance and the arts as tools for reshaping public health narratives and behavior.   About the guest:   Dr Rebecca Messbarger is Professor of Italian and Director of Undergraduate Studies in Italian at the Washington University in St louis Department of Romance Languages and Literatures, and has a secondary appointment as Professor of Public Health at the Bursky School of Public Health. Rebecca researches the Italian Enlightenment, with a focus on the role of women in civic and academic life, and the intersections of anatomy and art, and medicine and religion.     Notes:   Acronyms mentioned in this episode include:   AIDS = Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome    Useful resources:  The Eye: A Medical Humanities Podcast — https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-eye-a-medical-humanities-podcast/id1814000357     Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla   Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras   Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri   Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/     The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

    History, stories and the shaping of public health with Rebecca Messbarger

  7. 7 Jul

    The future of science and the replication crisis with John Ioannidis and Sandro Galea

    This episode is a re-run of the Ideas Matter podcast episode “The Future of Science and the Replication Crisis” hosted by Dean Sandro Galea, Co-Director of the Building Better Ways of Knowing initiative, in conversation with Professor John Ioannidis. The original episode was released by Ideas Matter on May 19, 2026. This episode begins with a discussion of Dr. Ioannidis’ paper about how most research findings cannot be replicated. Following the argument of this paper, Dean Galea and Dr. Ioannidis unpack the structural and statistical forces—incentives, funding, tenure, and conflicts of interest—that drive this replication challenge, and highlight the progress that has been made despite these challenges, using genetic epidemiology as an example. They also discuss the pandemic, and how it served as a stress-test for science, requiring disciplines to show their capacity to rapid response but also promoting low-quality research. Forward-facing, Dean Galea and Dr. Ioannidis discuss the role of AI and LLMs in both improving and potentially deteriorating science, including the rise of fake papers and the privatization of knowledge, they formulate what success for science might look like in 20-30 years, debate how scientists should handle controversy and pushback, and highlight the of humility in science and remaining open to being wrong. If you have ever questioned whether science is getting things right, this conversation will give you both an honest answer and reasons for cautious optimism.   About the guest: John Ioannidis is the George E. and Lucy Becker Professor of Medicine at the Stanford Prevention Research Center and Professor of epidemiology and population health at Stanford University. His research focuses on improving research methods and practices to generate more reliable, trustworthy, and useful evidence. He is among the most cited scholars in Clinical Medicine, Social Sciences and Psychiatry/Psychology, and is the author of the most-accessed article in the history of Public Library of Science.     Notes: Acronyms mentioned in this episode include: AI = Artificial Intelligence LLM = Large Language Models   Useful resources: Ioannidis JPA. Why Most Published Research Findings Are False. PLoS Med. 2005;2(8):e124. doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124   Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Ryan Rhea and Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/   The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

    The future of science and the replication crisis with John Ioannidis and Sandro Galea

  8. 30 Jun

    Changing public health paradigms with Whitney Robinson

    What does it take to shift a public health narrative and are researchers ready when the moment comes?  Whitney and Salma start their conversation discussing Whitney’s move from obesity to gynecologic research, highlighting how gynecologic conditions and overall women’s midlife health are understudied, as well as how obesity narratives remain focused on the individual willpower, despite a strong body of evidence pointing to environmental and structural causes. Then, they delve into Whitney’s experience as a social epidemiologist embedded in a clinical environment, discuss the tensions between quantitative work and advocacy in social epidemiology, and highlight the dangers of academics making assumptions about communities without talking to them.   Reflecting on the Covid-19 pandemic, Whitney and Salma also analyze how the pandemic pushed researchers toward more public-facing communication and look at the role of narrative and political moments in shifting public health paradigms, the importance of being ready when those windows of opportunity open, and the need for academics to engage with political stakeholders as a long-term investment.  This conversation will challenge you to think about who public health researchers are actually talking to and who they should be aiming to reach.  About the guest:   Whitney R Robinson is Associate Professor in Obstetrics and Gynecology at the Duke University School of Medicine, Member of the Duke Cancer Institute, and Core Faculty Member of the Duke-Margolis Institute for Health Policy. Her research currently focuses on understanding why rates of disease for non-cancerous gynecologic conditions like endometriosis, fibroids, and PCOS vary across population groups. Previously, her research had focused on disparities for obesity.     Notes:   Acronyms mentioned in this episode include:   HIV = Human Immunodeficiency Virus   NIH = National Institutes of Health   RCT = Randomized Controlled Trial   MAHA = Make America Healthy Again   AI = Artificial Intelligence   SER = Society for Epidemiological Research   OBGYN = Obstetrics and Gynecology    Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla   Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras   Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri   Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/     The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

    Changing public health paradigms with Whitney Robinson
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About

In this podcast, hosted by Dr. Salma Abdalla—Assistant Professor and Director of the Healthier Futures Lab at Washington University in St. Louis—we provide rigorous, evidence-based analysis of complex population health challenges. In a time of social, economic, and political upheaval—marked by eroding public trust, polarized narratives, and growing uncertainty—this podcast aims to challenge oversimplified narratives about the forces that shape the health of populations. Salma engages guests from across disciplines in rigorous, evidence-based conversations that challenge conventional wisdom. The conversations sometimes pose uncomfortable questions, seek nuanced perspectives, and question not just what we think, but how we arrive at our conclusions in public health. We explore the inherent complexities, real-world tradeoffs, and unintended consequences of public health interventions. Our goal is to empower listeners with nuanced understanding, helping them navigate these multifaceted issues in an informed and balanced way. The podcast is supported by the Washington University School of Public Health — https://schoolofpublichealth.washu.edu — and the Frick Initiative. Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras and Zachary Linhares Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/ Contact us at: s.abdalla@wustl.edu

Information

  • Creator
    Salma Abdalla
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    36
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Copyright 2025 All rights reserved.
  • Show Website
    Complicating The Narrative

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