Nonprofits, your “10 blue links” era is over. In this episode, Avinash Kaushik (Human-Made Machine; Occam’s Razor) breaks down Answer Engine Optimization—why LLMs now decide who gets seen, why third-party chatter outweighs your own site, and what to do about it. We get tactical: build AI-resistant content (genuine novelty + depth), go multimodal (text, video, audio), and stamp everything with real attribution so bots can’t regurgitate you into sludge. We also cover measurement that isn’t delusional—group your AEO referrals, expect fewer visits but higher intent, and stop worshiping last-click and vanity metrics. Avinash updates the 10/90 rule for the AI age (invest in people, plus “synthetic interns”), and torpedoes linear funnels in favor of See-Think-Do-Care anchored in intent. If you want a blunt, practical playbook for staying visible—and actually converting—when answers beat searches, this is it. About Avinash Avinash Kaushik is a leading voice in marketing analytics—the author of Web Analytics: An Hour a Day and Web Analytics 2.0, publisher of the Marketing > Analytics Intersect newsletter, and longtime writer of the Occam’s Razor blog. He leads strategy at Human Made Machine, advises Tapestry on brand strategy/marketing transformation, and previously served as Google’s Digital Marketing Evangelist. Uniquely, he donates 100% of his book royalties and paid newsletter revenue to charity (civil rights, early childhood education, UN OCHA; previously Smile Train and Doctors Without Borders). He also co-founded Market Motive. Resource Links Avinash Kaushik — Occam’s Razor (site/home) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik Marketing > Analytics Intersect (newsletter sign-up) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik AEO series starter: “AI Age Marketing: Bye SEO, Hello AEO!” Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik See-Think-Do-Care (framework explainer) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik Books: Web Analytics: An Hour a Day | Web Analytics 2.0 (author pages) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik+1 Human Made Machine (creative pre-testing) — Home | About | Products humanmademachine.com+2humanmademachine.com+2 Tapestry (Coach, Kate Spade) (company site) Tapestry Tools mentioned (AEO measurement): Trakkr (AI visibility / prompts / sentiment) Trakkr Evertune (AI Brand Index & monitoring) evertune.ai GA4 how-tos (for your AEO channel + attribution): Custom Channel Groups (create an “AEO” channel) Google Help Attribution Paths report (multi-touch view) Google Help Nonprofit vetting (Avinash’s donation diligence): Charity Navigator (ratings) Charity Navigator Google for Nonprofits — Gemini & NotebookLM (AI access) Announcement / overview | Workspace AI for nonprofits blog.googleGoogle Help Example NGO Avinash supports: EMERGENCY (Italy) EMERGENCY Transcript Avinash Kaushik: [00:00:00] So traffic's gonna go down. So if you're a business, you're a nonprofit, how. Do you deal with the fact that you're gonna lose a lot of traffic that you get from a search engine? Today, when all of humanity moves to the answer Engine W world, only about two or 3% of the people are doing it. It's growing very rapidly. Um, and so the art of answer engine optimization is making sure that we are building for these LMS and not getting stuck with only solving for Google with the old SEO techniques. Some of them still work, but you need to learn a lot of new stuff because on average, organic traffic will drop between 16 to 64% negative and paid search traffic will drop between five to 30% negative. And that is a huge challenge. And the reason you should start with AEO now George Weiner: [00:01:00] This week's guest, Avinash Kaushik is an absolute hero of mine because of his amazing, uh, work in the field of web analytics. And also, more importantly, I'd say education. Avinash Kaushik, , digital marketing evangelist at Google for Google Analytics. He spent 16 years there. He basically is. In the room where it happened, when the underlying ability to understand what's going on on our websites was was created. More importantly, I think for me, you know, he joined us on episode 45 back in 2016, and he still is, I believe, on the cutting edge of what's about to happen with AEO and the death of SEO. I wanna unpack that 'cause we kind of fly through terms [00:02:00] before we get into this podcast interview AEO. Answer engine optimization. It's this world of saying, alright, how do we create content that can't just be, , regurgitated by bots, , wholesale taken. And it's a big shift from SEO search engine optimization. This classic work of creating content for Google to give us 10 blue links for people to click on that behavior is changing. And when. We go through a period of change. I always wanna look at primary sources. The people that, , are likely to know the most and do the most. And he operates in the for-profit world. But make no mistake, he cares deeply about nonprofits. His expertise, , has frankly been tested, proven and reproven. So I pay attention when he says things like, SEO is going away, and AEO is here to stay. So I give you Avan Kashic. I'm beyond excited that he has come back. He was on our 45th episode and now we are well over our 450th episode. So, , who knows what'll happen next time we talk to him. [00:03:00] This week on the podcast, we have Avinash Kaushik. He is currently the chief strategy officer at Human Made Machine, but actually returning guest after many, many years, and I know him because he basically introduced me to Google Analytics, wrote the literal book on it, and also helped, by the way. No big deal. Literally birth Google Analytics for everyone. During his time at Google, I could spend the entire podcast talking about, uh, the amazing amounts that you have contributed to, uh, marketing and analytics. But I'd rather just real quick, uh, how are you doing and how would you describe your, uh, your role right now? Avinash Kaushik: Oh, thank you. So it's very excited to be back. Um, look forward to the discussion today. I do, I do several things concurrently, of course. I, I, I am an author and I write this weekly newsletter on marketing and analytics. Um, I am the Chief Strategy Officer at Human Made Machine, a company [00:04:00] that obsesses about helping brands win before they spend by doing creative pretesting. And then I also do, uh, uh, consulting at Tapestry, which owns Coach and Kate Spades. And my work focuses on brand strategy and marketing transformation globally. George Weiner: , Amazing. And of course, Occam's Razor. The, the, yes, the blog, which is incredible. I happen to be a, uh, a subscriber. You know, I often think of you in the nonprofit landscape, even though you operate, um, across many different brands, because personally, you also actually donate all of your proceeds from your books, from your blog, from your subscription. You are donating all of that, um, because that's just who you are and what you do. So I also look at you as like team nonprofit, though. Avinash Kaushik: You're very kind. No, no, I, I, yeah. All the proceeds from both of my books and now my newsletter, premium newsletter. It's about $200,000 a year, uh, donated to nonprofits, and a hundred [00:05:00] percent of the revenue is donated nonprofit, uh, nonprofits. And, and for me, it, it's been ai. Then I have to figure out. Which ones, and so I research nonprofits and I look up their cha charity navigators, and I follow up with the people and I check in on the works while, while don't work at a nonprofit, but as a customer of nonprofits, if you will. I, I keep sort of very close tabs on the amazing work that these charities do around the world. So feel very close to the people that you work with very closely. George Weiner: So recently I got an all caps subject line from you. Well, not from you talking about this new acronym that was coming to destroy the world, I think is what you, no, AEO. Can you help us understand what answer engine optimization is? Avinash Kaushik: Yes, of course. Of course. We all are very excited about ai. Obviously you, you, you would've to live in. Some backwaters not to be excited about it. And we know [00:06:00] that, um, at the very edge, lots of people are using large language models, chat, GPT, Claude, Gemini, et cetera, et cetera, in the world. And, and increasingly over the last year, what you have begun to notice is that instead of using a traditional search engine like Google or using the old Google interface with the 10 blue links, et cetera. People are beginning to use these lms. They just go to chat, GPT to get the answer that they want. And the one big difference in this, this behavior is I actually have on September 8th, I have a keynote here in New York and I have to be in Shanghai the next day. That is physically impossible because it, it just, the time it takes to travel. But that's my thing. So today, if I wanted to figure out what is the fastest way. On September 8th, I can leave New York and get to Shanghai. I would go to Google flights. I would put in the destinations. It will come back with a crap load of data. Then I poke and prod and sort and filter, and I have to figure out which flight is right for that. For this need I have. [00:07:00] So that is the old search engine world. I'm doing all the work, hunting and pecking, drilling down, visiting websites, et cetera, et cetera. Instead, actually what I did is I went to charge GBT 'cause I, I have a plus I, I'm a paying member of charge GBT and I said to charge GBTI have to do a keynote between four and five o'clock on September 8th in New York and I have to be in Shanghai as fast as I possibly can be After my keynote, can you find me the best flight? And I just typed in those two sentences. He came back and said, this Korean airline website flight is the best one for you. You will not get to your destination on
