Chalk and Gavel: An Education Law Podcast

Chalk and Gavel LLC
  • 5.0 (79)
  • EDUCATION
  • UPDATED BIWEEKLY

Welcome to Chalk and Gavel, exploring how the law shapes education, one case at a time. Join education professors Chris Thomas and Jamie Kudlats as they demystify the complex, ever-changing, and fascinating world of school law. Both former teachers, Chris, a former school attorney, and Jamie, a former principal, draw upon their experiences to explore the stories at the intersection of law and education. If you're an educator, policymaker, parent, student, or someone just curious about education, Chalk and Gavel is here to help you understand how the courtroom is connected to the classroom.

  1. 4D AGO

    68 | Live from SXSW-EDU: Navigating the Tides of an Education Law Sea Change

    What happens when you zoom out from individual court cases and start to see the bigger legal forces reshaping schools in real time? In this special live episode recorded at SXSW EDU, we step back from our usual case deep dives to explore what we’re calling a potential education law sea change—a moment where legislation, litigation, and policy shifts are collectively redefining what schools are, who they serve, and how educators operate within them. Instead of focusing on a single dispute, we trace the broader legal landscape: from book removals and curriculum restrictions to evolving expectations around student support, identity, and speech. Through real-world examples, we highlight how educators—from librarians to classroom teachers to counselors—are navigating increasing legal ambiguity, often without clear guidance and under the weight of potential consequences. We also dig into the foundational questions at the heart of education law: What is school for? Who is it for? And who gets to decide? Drawing on historical context and modern developments, we explore how answers to these questions have shifted over time—and why the pace and scale of change right now feel different. As always, we aim to connect the legal dots to practical realities. This episode offers strategies for educators, leaders, and innovators who want to build legal literacy and navigate this evolving terrain with more confidence. Because in today’s environment, the law isn’t just background noise—it’s shaping daily decisions in classrooms across the country. -Check out our updated website (⁠www.chalkandgavel.com⁠) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and order some NEW MERCH.-Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's new publication, Law and Policy in Schools, available at www.educationlaw.org/lapis-Keywords: #EducationLaw #SXSWEDU #LegalLandscape #SchoolLeadership #EducationPolicy #K12Law #TeacherSupport #StudentRights #CurriculumDebates #ChalkAndGavel #CivilRights #LegalLiteracy

    35 min

  2. APR 7

    67 | One T-shirt & “Two Genders:" School Regulation of Demeaning Student Speech

    What happens when student speech collides with evolving understandings of identity—and school efforts to protect students? In this episode, we examine L.M. v. Town of Middleborough, a recent First Amendment case involving a middle school student who was told to remove a shirt stating “there are only two genders.” School officials argued the message violated their dress code prohibiting hate speech and could harm transgender and gender non-conforming students. This case puts the spotlight back on the Tinker standard, forcing courts…and educators…to wrestle with a difficult question: When does student expression cross the line from protected speech into something schools can restrict?As always, we break down the facts, legal reasoning, and broader implications for schools navigating student speech in an increasingly complex cultural landscape. We also provide some updates on a bunch of previous bellringers…updates about the DOE, a case out of California that the USSC ruled on from its emergency docket, and more. This is a packed episode! -Check out our updated website (⁠www.chalkandgavel.com⁠) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and order some NEW MERCH. -Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's new publication, Law and Policy in Schools, available at www.educationlaw.org/lapis#FirstAmendment #StudentSpeech #TinkerStandard #EducationLaw #SchoolPolicy #FreeSpeechInSchools #LGBTQ #StudentRights #SchoolLeadership #K12Law #ChalkAndGavel #CivilRights #EducationPolicy

    1h 8m

  3. MAR 24

    66 | Tushies and Terminations: What Happens When a Principal Gets Fired for Reading a Kid’s Book?

    Get excited (and we're sorry in advance)! This case might be the best setup for dad jokes we’ve ever had on this show. What happens when an assistant principal gets fired for reading the kids’ classic, “I need a new butt,” to hundreds of second graders? Well, a court might question whether that termination passes the smell test, because something smells rotten about this decision! This is the real case, we promise, of Price v. Hinds County School District, yes, Hinds, as in “behind”. Maybe that’s why everyone was so sensitive about this? But regardless, today, we’re going to get to the bottom of it! We also talk about ...---Check out our updated website (⁠www.chalkandgavel.com⁠) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and order some NEW MERCH.Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's new publication, Law and Policy in Schools, available at https://www.educationlaw.org/lapis---Keywords: I Need a New Butt, Educator Discipline, Due Process, Arbitrary and Capricious, Educators Ethics#educationlaw #k12 #podcast #ChalkandGavel #Teachers

    55 min

  4. MAR 9

    65 | Book Bans and Local Control: Oklahoma’s Fight Over “Inappropriate” Material in School Libraries

    You know what we miss? With everything happening at the federal level, we haven’t talked about Oklahoma in ages. Well, today we're doing something about that! Today’s case deals with Oklahoma, school libraries, allegations of “sexualized” material, and a state superintendent determined to enforce new rules about what students can and cannot read. But this one isn’t just about book bans. It’s about who gets to decide what belongs in a public school library: the state board of education or local school districts. And when the state tried to enforce its new rule against a district, that district went straight to the Oklahoma Supreme Court and said, you don’t have the authority to do that. This is the case of Edmond Public Schools v. the Oklahoma State Board of Education. We also talk about new guidance from the U.S. Department of Education (yes, it still exists!) on constitutionally protected prayer in public schools.--- CHALK & GAVEL IS LIVE AT #SXSWEDU THIS WEEK! ---Check out our updated website (⁠www.chalkandgavel.com⁠) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and order some NEW MERCH.Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's new publication, Law and Policy in Schools, available at https://www.educationlaw.org/lapis--- Keywords: Oklahoma, Curriculum, Book Bans, School Governance, Libraries, Religious Freedoms, Prayer#educationlaw #k12 #podcast #ChalkandGavel #BookBans

    39 min

  5. FEB 24

    64 | Public Money and Private Schools: When School Choice Vouchers Violate a State Constitution

    Can a state, like say, South Carolina, consistent with its state constitution, create a school choice program that allows families to pay for private school tuition from a state-funded education savings account? That's right, today we're doing a completely apolitical case. Just kidding! That would be a nice change, but this is education law; everything is political! So today, we're talking about school choice with the case Eidson v. the South Carolina Department of Education. In 2023, South Carolina created a program to fund education savings accounts (ESAs). Eligible families could then use those accounts to pay for qualifying educational programs or activities, including private school tuition. But the South Carolina constitution says that no public funds can be spent for the direct benefit of private schools. Can you see the potential conflict? We also discuss a recent decision by the Trump administration to abandon its appeal of a Court order pausing some of the administration's anti-DEI efforts, meaning that the efforts remain on hold.---Check out our updated website (⁠www.chalkandgavel.com⁠) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our episode database, and order some NEW MERCH.Don't forget - ⁠Chalk and Gavel was selected to record a live episode at SXSW-EDU in March.⁠ We're pumped about this one. Help us spread the word!Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's new publication, Law and Policy in Schools, available at https://www.educationlaw.org/lapis---Keywords: school funding, school choice, vouchers, education savings accounts, South Carolina, parents' rights, DEI#educationlaw #k12 #podcast #ChalkandGavel #SchoolChoice

    53 min

  6. FEB 10

    63 | Censoring Student Journalists: Free Speech and School Newspapers

    What happens when district officials censor a student’s article for the high school newspaper because they don’t like what it says? Probably nothing good. Some people might consider that viewpoint discrimination and frown on that sort of thing. On today’s episode, we’re going to talk about a pretty interesting case from about 20 years ago that pitted a high school student journalist against her school district in a fight over free speech and censorship. When the school didn’t like how Katy Dean reported on a lawsuit against the district, officials shut it down. This is the case of Dean v Utica Community Schools. We also discuss recent litigation in California regarding whether schools must disclose to parents when their children request to be called by different names and pronouns at school.---Check out our updated website (⁠www.chalkandgavel.com⁠) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our teaching guide, and order some NEW MERCH.Don't forget - ⁠Chalk and Gavel was selected to record a live episode at SXSW-EDU in March.⁠ We're pumped about this one. Help us spread the word!Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's new publication, Law and Policy in Schools, available at https://www.educationlaw.org/lapis---Keywords: free speech, student journalism, censorship, Hazelwood, transgender students, parents' rights#educationlaw #k12 #podcast #ChalkandGavel #FreeSpeech #teachers

    55 min

  7. JAN 27

    62 | Inside the Courtroom: The BPJ v West Virginia Oral Arguments

    It’s time to cover the oral arguments in the transgender student athlete cases! Which means we need some expert guidance, and who better to join us than Dr. Suzanne Eckes? This is one we’ve talked about before, but can states prohibit transgender girls from playing on the girls team? We first covered BPJ v. West Virginia in episode 57. In that case, Becky Pepper-Jackson, a transgender girl, challenged West Virginia’s law that defined athletic teams based on biological sex assigned at birth. Well, she won at the lower court, but the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case along with another transgender student athlete case, Little v. Hecox, which involved a similar law and situation out of Idaho. So now the nine justices of the Supreme Court have to grapple with the question of whether Title IX or the Equal Protection Clause prohibit states from having sex-separated sports teams based on biological sex, even where as both Becky and Hecox argue, they have no biological advantage as compared to cisgender girls. ---Check out our updated website (⁠www.chalkandgavel.com⁠) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our teaching guide, and order some NEW MERCH.Don't forget - ⁠Chalk and Gavel was selected to record a live episode at SXSW-EDU in March.⁠ We're pumped about this one. Help us spread the word!Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's new publication, Law and Policy in Schools, available at https://www.educationlaw.org/lapis---Keywords: transgender student athletes, Title IX, Equal Protection Clause, LGBTQ+, sex discrimination#educationlaw #k12 #podcast #ChalkandGavel #TransRights #SupremeCourt

    1h 5m

  8. JAN 13

    61 | Fired over a Coaster: Principal Free Speech and Community Values

    What happens when a principal’s retirement gift to a friend causes a community uproar? In this episode, we discuss the case of Stirling v. North Slope in which a principal made a questionable gift, on a school printer, that resulted in him getting fired. While that may not sound so bad, the gift repurposed the school's official motto and logo in ways the community found problematic. Well, the principal challenged his termination, arguing that it violated his free speech rights. This is an interesting one! It involves community values, educators' free speech rights, employment issues, school authority, and the most northern school district in the United States, which is pretty cool, literally. We also discuss recent efforts by the Trump administration to shift the Department of Education's work to other federal agencies. --- Check out our updated website (⁠www.chalkandgavel.com⁠) to sign up for our newsletter, support the show, find our teaching guide, and order some NEW MERCH. Don't forget - ⁠Chalk and Gavel was selected to record a live episode at SXSW-EDU in March.⁠ We're pumped about this one. Help us spread the word! Interested in staying up to date on education law as an educator? Check out ELA's new publication, Law and Policy in Schools, available at https://www.educationlaw.org/lapis --- Keywords: free speech, labor and employment, employee termination, community values #educationlaw #k12 #podcast #ChalkandGavel #FreeSpeech #teachers

    50 min
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Welcome to Chalk and Gavel, exploring how the law shapes education, one case at a time. Join education professors Chris Thomas and Jamie Kudlats as they demystify the complex, ever-changing, and fascinating world of school law. Both former teachers, Chris, a former school attorney, and Jamie, a former principal, draw upon their experiences to explore the stories at the intersection of law and education. If you're an educator, policymaker, parent, student, or someone just curious about education, Chalk and Gavel is here to help you understand how the courtroom is connected to the classroom.

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