Divergent States

Divergent States
  • 5.0 (4)
  • LIFE SCIENCES
  • UPDATED BIMONTHLY

Divergent States cuts through psychedelic hype with grounded, curious conversations about what these substances actually do. Hosted by 3L1T3, founder of r/Psychonaut, the world’s largest psychedelic harm-reduction community, and co-hosted by Bryan, a USMC veteran and advocate for psychedelic healing, the show brings together lived experience, science, and culture without losing its sense of humor. This isn’t a spiritual podcast.This isn’t a marketing platform. No mysticism. No sales pitch. Just real conversations, harm reduction, and honest questions. We explore how psychedelics shape mental health, creativity, and society, from underground use and peer-support communities to clinical trials, therapy rooms, and shifting public attitudes. Some episodes get serious. Some get weird. All of them are grounded in respect for the people actually taking these substances and living with the outcomes. Guests include Rick Doblin, Reggie Watts, Leonard Pickard, Anne Wagner, Hamilton Morris, and Rick Strassman. Divergent States is built on the same principles that made r/Psychonaut work at scale: curiosity without gullibility, openness without losing your footing, and safety without killing the joy. If you’re looking for guru worship, this isn’t your show. If you’re looking for thoughtful, funny, and grounded conversations about psychedelics and the lives they touch, welcome to Divergent States. New episodes every two weeks.

  1. Manuela Picq: The People Behind the Coca Leaf

    4D AGO

    Manuela Picq: The People Behind the Coca Leaf

    This is the human center of The Many Faces of Coca. By the time coca enters Western conversations, it’s already been abstracted—reduced to policy, drugs, or crime. But for millions of people, coca isn’t any of those things. It’s daily life. In this final episode of the series, we speak with political theorist and anthropologist Manuela Picq, who has lived and worked alongside communities in the Andes and Amazon. This conversation moves beyond theory and into lived reality—how coca functions as food, medicine, memory, and community. We explore: – Why coca is not cocaine—and why that distinction matters – How prohibition reshapes entire communities – The generational loss of cultural knowledge – The role of women as keepers of coca traditions – How global policy decisions impact real lives on the ground – Why the war on coca may actually be a war on people If Parts 1 and 2 explored the science and history of coca, this episode asks a deeper question: What does it mean to live with this plant today? This is Part 3 of The Many Faces of Coca Featuring conversations with Wade Davis, Dennis McKenna, and Manuela Picq Chapters: 00:00 Intro – Coca as Lived Reality (Not Policy) 04:05 Who Defines Coca? (Culture vs Western Narratives) 09:51 How Coca Became Criminalized 13:22 Coca in Daily Life (Food, Medicine, Community) 18:02 From Tradition to Cash Crop 22:19 Who Pays the Price? (Violence & Exploitation) 25:45 Prohibition, Capitalism & the Drug War 28:35 Women, Knowledge & Hidden Traditions 33:37 Is Coca Control Really About Power? 36:32 The UN, Policy & Global Disconnect 40:09 What the World Gets Wrong About Coca 41:15 Closing Thoughts (End of Interview) 43:07 Post-Conversation Reflection (Why This Series Matters) 45:31 Where to Go Next (Series, Patreon, Discord) Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D, Mike, and Oceanna, on Patreon!   https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

    49 min
  2. Dennis McKenna: The Chemistry Behind the Coca Leaf

    MAR 16

    Dennis McKenna: The Chemistry Behind the Coca Leaf

    The Many Faces of Coca – Part Two In Part Two of the Many Faces of Coca series, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with renowned ethnopharmacologist Dennis McKenna to explore the science behind the coca leaf. Part One focused on history and politics with Wade Davis, this conversation turns to the biology and chemistry of the plant itself. What actually happens when coca is chewed? What compounds exist in the leaf besides cocaine? Why did human cultures independently domesticate coca multiple times? Dennis breaks down the alkaloid chemistry, pharmacology, and plant symbiosis that shaped coca’s role in Andean societies for thousands of years. Along the way, the conversation explores: • The three coca species used by humans • Why coca and cocaine are chemically and culturally different • The entourage effect of whole plant medicines • How alkaline activation changes coca absorption • Why coca chewing may help treat cocaine addiction • The scientific questions prohibition has prevented researchers from asking The result is a clearer picture of a plant that has been misunderstood for over a century. This episode is Part Two of a three-part series examining coca from history, chemistry, and lived experience. Part Three will explore how coca prohibition shapes real life in Andean communities with Manuela Picq. Key Points Coca comes from three main domesticated species in the genus Erythroxylum.The coca leaf contains multiple alkaloids, not just cocaine.Cocaine is only one compound within a larger phytochemical matrix in the leaf.Traditional coca chewing uses alkaline substances to increase alkaloid absorption.Whole plant use produces a broader entourage effect compared to isolated cocaine.Indigenous cultures independently domesticated coca multiple times across South America.Coca may help high-altitude populations adapt through increased energy, nutrition, and appetite suppression.Cocaine acts primarily as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor in the brain.Some evidence suggests chewing coca may help people transition away from cocaine dependenceChapters: 00:00 – What Is Coca? The Question That Starts Everything 00:44 – Major Psilocybin News: Compass Pathways Phase 3 Results 04:28 – The Many Faces of Coca Series (Part 2 Introduction) 07:36 – Dennis McKenna Joins the Conversation 08:09 – Coca vs Cocaine: The Botanical Reality 15:06 – Why Humans Domesticated Coca 18:23 – Why Humans Seek Altered States of Consciousness 26:06 – What’s Actually Insi Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Leadership Lessons From The Great BooksUnderstanding great literature is better than trying to read and understand (yet)...Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D, Mike, and Oceanna, on Patreon!   https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

    1h 4m
  3. Wade Davis: From Sacred Leaf to Global Scapegoat

    MAR 2

    Wade Davis: From Sacred Leaf to Global Scapegoat

    In Part One of The Many Faces of Coca, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Wade Davis to unpack the long history of the coca leaf and how a plant used for over 8,000 years became globally criminalized. This conversation isn’t about cocaine. It’s about coca. Wade walks us through: How coca was independently domesticated multiple times in pre-Columbian South AmericaWhy early 20th-century elites blamed coca for poverty instead of confronting inequalityThe 1949 UN commission that arrived with its conclusions already writtenThe nutritional research that challenged decades of ideologyHow the modern international scheduling framework still treats coca as if it were fentanyl or heroinWhy the recent WHO review maintained the status quo — and what that meansWe also explore the deeper cultural reality: coca as ritual exchange, spiritual alignment, social glue, and daily sustenance in the Andes. This episode lays the foundation for the series. Next, we move into the ethnobiology with Dennis McKenna. Then we examine sovereignty and lived realities with Manuela Picq. If you’ve ever wondered why coca gets ignored while other plant medicines dominate Western discourse, this is where we start pulling that thread. This isn’t nostalgia. It’s about policy, ideology, and whether a plant can be separated from the story told about it. Key Points Coca has been used for over 8,000 years in the Andes, distinct from cocaine.Cocaine is an extracted alkaloid; the leaf itself functions very differently.Coca was independently domesticated three times in pre-Columbian South America.The leaf contains significant nutritional value (calcium, vitamins, protein) and aids digestion at altitude.Early 20th-century elites blamed coca for poverty and social issues instead of structural inequality.The 1949 UN commission formed conclusions before conducting meaningful investigation.The 1961 UN drug scheduling framework still reflects that early ideological bias.Coca plays a central spiritual and social role in Andean cultures (ritual exchange, prayer, daily labor).Prohibition has fueled violence, displacement, and environmental harm in coca-growing regions.The core policy question is political, not pharmacological: can coca be separated from cocaine in law and narrative?Chapters  00:00 – 8,000 Years of Coca  04:19 – What Is Coca?  08:22 – Traditional Use & Preparation  14:36 – The 1949 UN Commission  23:10 – Drug War Consequences  29:23 – Coca as Cultural Foundation  33:40 – Why There’s No Public Constituency  43:35 – Coca vs Cocaine Extraction  46:00 – DEA, Cartels & Prohibition Incentives  50:47 – If You Remember One Thing  53:10 – Reflection & Series Preview  Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D, Mike, and Oceanna, on Patreon!   https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

    1h 1m
  4. ETEREO: What No One Tells You About Iboga Work

    FEB 16

    ETEREO: What No One Tells You About Iboga Work

    Iboga has a reputation. It’s intense. It’s long. It carries real risk. And for some people, it’s life-changing. But what actually happens inside a retreat container? And what does this work look like behind the scenes? In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Paije West and Fletcher Burdick, founders of ETEREO, an iboga retreat center in Baja, Mexico. Their approach sits somewhere between medical oversight and traditional ceremony, which opens up some thoughtful questions about safety, responsibility, integration, and how we talk about powerful medicines without turning them into mythology. This isn’t a hype piece. It’s a grounded conversation about: • The difference between iboga and ibogaine  • Cardiac risk and how they screen for it  • Why they sometimes say “no”  • What ceremony actually does (beyond aesthetics)  • Whether luxury retreat settings help or distract  • Why integration matters more than most people think  • And whether the field might be moving a little too fast We talk about neuroplasticity, structure vs freedom, tradition vs extraction, and what’s still unknown about iboga. If you’re curious about the medicine — or about how people try to hold it responsibly — this one’s worth your time. The extended, more personal segment continues on Patreon. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introducing Bryan & Why This Conversation Matters  02:00 – Framing the Episode: No Miracle Claims  03:15 – What ETEREO Is (In Plain Language)  07:00 – What an Iboga Retreat Looks Like  11:20 – Iboga vs Ibogaine  14:30 – Ceremony: Structure, Not Symbolism  16:30 – Neuroplasticity & Set and Setting  17:40 – Who Iboga Is Not For  21:30 – Safety & Medical Screening  24:30 – Small Groups vs High-Volume Clinics  25:30 – “Conscious Luxury” — Does It Help?  29:00 – Stepping Away from the Real World  30:00 – Why Integration Is Everything  32:00 – Relational Healing  35:00 – Why They Don’t Track Outcomes Like Clinics  36:10 – Incentives & Avoiding Extraction  39:10 – Is the Field Moving Too Fast?  40:00 – What We Still Don’t Know About Iboga  41:30 – Final Reflections  42:00 – Patreon Segment Tease  44:50 – Closing Thoughts  🎧 Extended version available on Patreon 🎓 Zendo Project peer-support training: use code DIVERGENTS10 Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Leadership Lessons From The Great BooksUnderstanding great literature is better than trying to read and understand (yet)...Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D, Mike, and Oceanna, on Patreon!   https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

    51 min
  5. Cesar Marin: Microdosing, Midlife, and Reinvention

    FEB 2

    Cesar Marin: Microdosing, Midlife, and Reinvention

    What happens when a 25-year career at CNN ends — and a new life begins? In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Cesar Marin, former CNN producer and founder of Microdosing Over 50, about how psychedelics helped him navigate midlife, identity loss, and personal reinvention. Cesar shares his journey from broadcast media to becoming an advocate for intentional microdosing later in life. We explore the difference between microdosing for healing vs optimization, how intention shapes outcomes, and why people over 50 face unique integration challenges. We also discuss:  • Microdosing psilocybin vs LSD  • Career loss and psychedelic-driven reinvention  • Presence, connection, and integration practices  • How media shapes psychedelic narratives  • Why midlife may be the most powerful time for change  • Healing vs performance framing in psychedelic use  • Stigma, legality, and education  • Building a mission-driven life after burnout This conversation is about more than substances — it’s about agency, curiosity, and what happens when you stop outsourcing your meaning. 🎧 Extended version available on Patreon 🎓 Zendo Project peer-support training: use code DIVERGENTS10 🧠 For listeners interested in microdosing, midlife transitions, and psychedelic culture https://cultivatingwisdom.net/ ⏱️ Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction & Cesar’s background  01:45 – 25 years at CNN and getting laid off  04:30 – Discovering psychedelics at 55  06:40 – Cultivating Wisdom & microdosing over 50  10:15 – Loss, grief, and mission-driven work  13:10 – What shifted personally  17:45 – Early doubts and first psychedelic experience  22:23 – Fun vs healing: why people stay  22:41 – How media shaped his psychedelic voice  26:13 – Bad headlines and stigma  28:26 – Why storytelling matters  29:18 – Midlife fear and reinvention  32:12 – “It’s not almost over — it’s just starting”  33:18 – Integration for older adults  37:55 – Meditation, presence, and connection  39:13 – Healing vs optimization  43:45 – Microdosing LSD vs psilocybin  46:36 – Psychedelic commercialization  47:47 – Public episode wrap-up  48:31 – Post-interview reflections  50:05 – Bryan’s takeaway  52:11 – Healing vs optimization framing  54:17 – Outro & Patreon plug Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Leadership Lessons From The Great BooksUnderstanding great literature is better than trying to read and understand (yet)...Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D, Mike, and Oceanna, on Patreon!   https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

    58 min
  6. Shane Mauss: How Psychedelics Actually Change the Mind

    JAN 19

    Shane Mauss: How Psychedelics Actually Change the Mind

    What really happens when psychedelics change someone, and why do some people come back grounded while others spiral into ego, conspiracy, or spiritual bypassing? In this long-form conversation, comedian and science-minded psychonaut Shane Mauss joins Divergent States for a deep dive into what psychedelics do to the human mind beneath the mystical language. Drawing on neuroscience, cognitive bias, evolutionary psychology, and lived psychedelic experience, Shane explains how substances like LSD, mushrooms, and DMT increase mental plasticity, loosen rigid categories, and open the brain to new ways of thinking — for better and for worse. Together, we explore why altered states can lead to creativity, healing, and insight, but also why they can just as easily fuel delusion, conspiracy thinking, and inflated ego. We talk about the placebo effect, Dunning-Kruger, belief formation, and how access to infinite information can make people feel like they know everything while understanding very little. Shane also shares candid stories from inside the psychedelic comedy world, including how Tales From the Trip was secretly launched at Comedy Central, why he’s uneasy about the current psychedelic “gold rush,” and how mainstream acceptance has changed the culture. This episode isn’t about chasing cosmic secrets or mystical narratives. It’s about how the mind actually works — and how psychedelics can either help us become more open, curious, and flexible, or lock us deeper into fantasy if we don’t know how to think critically about what we experience. If you care about psychedelics, consciousness, and staying grounded in reality while exploring extraordinary states, this conversation is for you. Shane's new special comes out 2/18 on ShaneMauss.com! Special thanks to Drip who did the music, check him out on Spotify and Soundcloud!  00:00 — Season 2 Opening  04:18 — From Stand-Up to Science  07:40 — Creating Psychedelic Theater  11:40 — Why Psychedelic Comedy Was Taboo  14:50 — Tales From the Trip Origin Story  19:20 — Why He Doesn’t Feel Like a Regular Comic  23:40 — Comedy as Tension and Truth  34:00 — George Carlin and Big-Idea Comedy  38:20 — Psychedelics Going Mainstream  41:00 — Skeptical Psychonauts  45:20 — Seeing the Dark Side of the Scene  47:45 — Psychedelics, Categorization, and the Brain  51:30 — The Crunchy-to-Conservative Pipeline  54:00 — Dunning-Kruger and Illusions of Knowledge  57:10 — Why Science Is Counterintuitive  01:02:40 — Why These Conversations Matter  Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Leadership Lessons From The Great BooksUnderstanding great literature is better than trying to read and understand (yet)...Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D, Mike, and Oceanna, on Patreon!   https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

    1h 9m
  7. Inside Season Two: Integration, Not Escapism

    JAN 7 ·  BONUS

    Inside Season Two: Integration, Not Escapism

    Season Two of Divergent States is about something simple and surprisingly rare: exploring altered states without losing touch with reality. In this preview episode, 3L1T3 and Bryan share two short moments from upcoming conversations that define the tone of the season ahead. In the first, Shane Mauss reflects on how psychedelics open people to awe—but also to certainty, conspiracies, and belief systems that can replace reality if no one pushes back. In the second, Cesar Marin explains why presence and human connection are the real work of integration, not endless chasing of peak experiences. Together, these moments capture what Divergent States has always tried to do: hold space for wonder without drifting into delusion, depth without losing grounding, and exploration rooted in real human connection. Patreon supporters get extended versions of these conversations, including sections that don’t survive algorithm-friendly edits. But this preview is here for everyone—because harm reduction, presence, and honest conversation shouldn’t be paywalled. Welcome to Season Two. Chapters 00:00 – Welcome back & season context Introducing Season Two and why this year matters. 00:28 – What Divergent States actually is What the show is: harm reduction, not hype or spiritual theater. 01:05 – Shane Mauss: Awe, science, and belief systems The “ghost crocodile” and microscope analogy. 04:49 – Why psychedelics create both insight and delusion Reflections on pattern-seeking and certainty in psychedelic spaces. 05:20 – Cesar Marin: Presence as integration Connection, mushrooms, and staying grounded in real life. 07:17 – The power of daily human connection Kids, texts, meditation, and showing up. 08:55 – What Divergent States is really about Awe without delusion; depth without losing touch. 09:15 – Patreon & how to support the show Extended cuts, deeper conversations, and why it matters. 10:10 – Harm reduction & Zendo Project Why we partner with them and what the code supports. 10:50 – Closing & Season Two welcome Personal sign-off and transition into the new season. Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D, Mike, and Oceanna, on Patreon!   https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

    13 min
  8. Dennis McKenna: Nature, AI, and the Collapse of Separation

    11/21/2025

    Dennis McKenna: Nature, AI, and the Collapse of Separation

    Dennis McKenna joins 3L1T3 and Valerie Beltran to discuss the future of psychedelics, indigenous knowledge, and whether we are ready to bring these tools into mainstream culture without repeating the extractive patterns of the past. We explore the gap between good intentions and real reciprocity, what Western psychedelic enthusiasm is missing, and how community-based practice may matter more than clinical models alone. We also dive into the first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV, how long-term members showed surprising changes in behavior and biology, and why the community structure may have played a larger role than the compound itself. Dennis talks about the work happening at the McKenna Academy, preserving Amazonian herbarium collections, digitizing ancestral plant knowledge, and the ESPD Symposia. This conversation calls out the cultural side of psychedelics, not just the science. If psychedelics are going to help, they must be integrated with wisdom, not just technology. Join our Patreon for the exclusive extended interview! Key Points Psychedelics entered global awareness through indigenous stewardship, not Western inventionReciprocity requires more than money and acknowledgmentThe ESPD Symposia preserve ethnobotanical knowledge and make it publicEfforts to digitize herbarium collections in Peru before they are lostChapters 00:00 Welcome to the season finale with Valerie 01:10 Who Dennis McKenna is and why he still matters 04:50 What still feels unresolved after 50 years 06:15 Co-optation, capitalism, and indigenous knowledge 09:00 The ESPD symposia and preserving ancestral knowledge 12:40 Biognosis and digitizing Amazonian herbarium archives 17:00 Why preserving knowledge matters more than artifacts 18:35 The first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV 22:45 Behavioral change, alcoholism, and community support 24:40 Serotonin transporter findings and biological mechanisms 27:30 Neuroplasticity and long-term structural change 31:00 Microdosing vs macro experiences 33:20 Default mode network and stepping outside the self 36:20 Separation from nature and cultural disconnection 38:30 Technology, AI, and cultural fragmentation 42:20 What real reciprocity might look like 46:50 Avoiding cultural appropriation and extraction 50:00 Psychedelics entering clinical models 52:45 Mushrooms as ideal symbiotic partners 56:00 Future of psychedelics in 10 years 01:00:20 Ibogaine as global brain reset 01:04:00 Evolution, partnership, and species symbiosis 01:06:00 Closing thoughts  Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Leadership Lessons From The Great BooksUnderstanding great literature is better than trying to read and understand (yet)...Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D, Mike, and Oceanna, on Patreon!   https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

    1h 25m
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4 Ratings

About

Divergent States cuts through psychedelic hype with grounded, curious conversations about what these substances actually do. Hosted by 3L1T3, founder of r/Psychonaut, the world’s largest psychedelic harm-reduction community, and co-hosted by Bryan, a USMC veteran and advocate for psychedelic healing, the show brings together lived experience, science, and culture without losing its sense of humor. This isn’t a spiritual podcast.This isn’t a marketing platform. No mysticism. No sales pitch. Just real conversations, harm reduction, and honest questions. We explore how psychedelics shape mental health, creativity, and society, from underground use and peer-support communities to clinical trials, therapy rooms, and shifting public attitudes. Some episodes get serious. Some get weird. All of them are grounded in respect for the people actually taking these substances and living with the outcomes. Guests include Rick Doblin, Reggie Watts, Leonard Pickard, Anne Wagner, Hamilton Morris, and Rick Strassman. Divergent States is built on the same principles that made r/Psychonaut work at scale: curiosity without gullibility, openness without losing your footing, and safety without killing the joy. If you’re looking for guru worship, this isn’t your show. If you’re looking for thoughtful, funny, and grounded conversations about psychedelics and the lives they touch, welcome to Divergent States. New episodes every two weeks.

Information

  • Creator
    Divergent States
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2026
  • Episodes
    32
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 DivergentStates
  • Show Website
    Divergent States

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