The Fourth Curtain

Alexander Seropian & Aaron Marroquin
  • 4.9 (40)
  • VIDEO GAMES
  • UPDATED WEEKLY

A GUIDED TOUR OF VIDEOGAME MAKERY! Hosts Alex Seropian (founder Bungie, Wideload, Industrial Toys) and Aaron Marroquin (Art Director, Game Designer, part time magician) take you on a tour of the minds that create our favorite video games. We may also wander around in our own heads too. We aim to inspire, educate and entertain you about the games you love, the people that make them and hey, if you're not a gamer we know you know one. This will help you connect with them too.

  1. 1D AGO

    Ghost of Yotei's Mud Blood and Steel, with Sucker Punch

    It's a one-two move with Sucker Punch's Chris Zimmerman and Brian Fleming. Now shipping Ghost of Yotei, they tell us about leaving Microsoft for Sony and becoming a gamedev powerhouse. Tales of exact pitches and being great instead of good - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Intro: Chris Zimmerman & Brian Fleming of Sucker Punch Productions An introduction to Chris and Brian, co-founders of Sucker Punch Productions (Sly Cooper, Infamous, Ghost of Tsushima). [00:08:23] “Name it Anything But Sucker Punch” Brian and Chris talk about the founding of Sucker Punch and how the studio got its name.  [00:14:06] Early Days at Microsoft Brian and Chris reminisce on learning how to run a business, trial and error, and early days at Microsoft. [00:21:04] Growing Up in the “Right” Place Brian and Chris trade stories of growing up and working in tech in the early 90s.  [00:27:54] Leaving Microsoft and Starting Sucker Punch Chris and Brian talk about leaving Microsoft, building a team from scratch, making their first games, and landing a deal with Ubisoft. [00:37:17] The Silver Lining After a release riddled with mistakes, the team lands a first party deal for their next game series, Sly Cooper.  [00:47:28] Was Sony the Right Choice? Chris and Brian discuss the advantage of having a stable, long-term relationship with your publisher and building trust. [00:51:19] How Ghost of Tsushima Started From an alpha that never got approval, to developing one of the fastest-selling first-party PlayStation titles and a BAFTA-winning game. [01:01:50] The Studio Now vs. Then and COVID’s Impact Releasing 3 months into the COVID-19 pandemic, Chris and Brian review how they adjusted their plans and how the studio has evolved over time. [1:10:27] Outro: Closing Remarks Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 16m

  2. SEP 4

    The Origin Stories of Elder Scrolls' Paul Sage

    We get an inside look this week from Paul Sage, founder and CEO of Ruckus Games. Inspired by Ultima 3, he worked his way up to lead designer of Ultima Online, to Borderlands 3 and more. Now working on a new project at Ruckus, we talk LEDs to 2600, Multima and when players outsmart you - this week!  This week's episode contains mentions of suicide. Viewer discretion is advised. Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Intro: Meet Paul Sage [00:09:15] Founding Ruckus Games: Origins of the Studio and the Name Paul shares how Ruckus Games was formed, why the name was chosen, and the vision that inspired its creation. [00:15:27] Surviving in Games: Do You Really Need a Hit? A candid discussion about the brutal economics of game development, why hits matter, and whether smaller successes can still keep a studio alive. [00:17:30] From Borderlands to Ruckus: Building a Team During a Pandemic Paul reflects on bringing together the original Borderlands crew, the challenges of forming a studio during COVID, and why this team made sense. [00:21:04] Growing Up in Texas: Consoles, Coding, and Falling in Love with Games From playing on a Merlin to coding in BASIC, Paul’s early years in Texas shaped his passion for computers, games, and Ultima Online. [00:34:50] From QA Tester to Designer: Breaking Into the Industry Thanks to a chance connection, Paul lands his first QA role — and through long nights and relentless work, makes his way onto the Ultima Online design team [00:50:26] Tabula Rasa: Hard Lessons and E3’s All-Time Low Paul opens up about leading Tabula Rasa, the struggles of working with ideas he didn’t believe in, and the infamous E3 moment that nearly broke the team. [00:59:37] Bethesda and Beyond: Learning Structure and Gaining Confidence After leaving Tabula Rasa, Paul joins Bethesda and ZeniMax Online, where strong processes and leadership lessons gave him the confidence to launch his own studio, Ruckus Games. [01:02:15] Borderlands 3 and Beyond: Finding Joy and Fixing a Broken Industry Paul looks back on the success of Borderlands 3, why the industry needs change, and how Ruckus Games is built on lessons learned to create a healthier path forward. [1:09:04] Outro: Closing Remarks Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 14m

  3. AUG 28

    How to Make an Atari Sandwich, with David Gardner

    David Gardner joins us this week with tales of the early days of videogames. A teenage tech prodigy, he was employee #11 at EA, ran Atari and is now a games VC. We talk Hawkins distortion fields, Atari sandwiches and when EA was hip - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Intro: Meet David Gardner An introduction to David Gardner’s journey in games, from his early days to becoming a leader at Electronic Arts and later a venture capital investor. [00:07:30] Breaking into Games: From Atari to EA to Atari David Gardner shares an overview of his journey, from his early Atari days to becoming a key figure at Electronic Arts, to VC-ing and beyond. He also shares tips and tricks about being a "super connector" and the best way to create a network. [00:13:55] Obsessed with Computers: The Poster Child with an Apple II David shares how he got started with games, from knocking on doors at 12 years old, to being on first-name basis with the Atari team & being snuck into conventions. [00:22:19] The Start of EA: Hired at 17 and Flown to California David talks about getting hired by EA, setting up international trade for the company, and going on his first trip to London that changed his life. They also discuss the 10,000 hours rule and the role of education in growing up.  [00:33:04] EA's Beginnings: Forging a Path David tells stories from EA’s early expansion, including culture, leadership, and publishing strategies that shaped the modern industry. [00:42:05] Building EA's UK Branch: Translating Business Practices Internationally Behind-the-scenes tales of creating EA's international branches, setting trends in the packaging and selling of games, and EA's growth over 20 years.  [00:49:07] The Kool-Aid from the Past: Starting Anew and Going Back Home David touches on the culture shock of going back to the US, navigating company politics, and why he ultimately left for the UK again. They discuss leaving EA and his old life behind, finding your place, and feeling valued. [00:56:54] Working at Atari: The Wake Up Call David unpacks the challenges at Atari and the economics of games across decades, from boxed products to digital distribution & free-to-play. He also discusses his start in investing. [1:05:03] From Executive to Investor: Founding London Venture Partners The journey from publishing to investing and venture capital, and why David co-founded LVP to back innovative game studios and companies (Unity, Playfish, Supercell, and more). [1:12:18] Outro: Closing Remarks Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 17m

  4. AUG 21

    Indie Megabooth's Digital Nomad Kelly Wallick

    This week we talk with the founder of the Indie Megabooth and games VC Kelly Wallick. Through her indie beginnings to her investing portfolio, community has always been the core. We discuss the Indie Game Festival, spotting hits and making a great pitch deck - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Founding the Indie MEGABOOTH: Building a Platform for Indie Games Kelly shares how she launched the Indie MEGABOOTH, creating a showcase that gave indie developers global visibility at major conventions. [00:06:00] From Chemistry to Gaming: Kelly’s Unlikely Career Path Discover how Kelly went from studying chemistry and working in science to becoming a leader in the indie game community. [00:13:00] The Rise of Indie Games: How Developers Changed the Industry Kelly reflects on the cultural and creative shift that indie games sparked, reshaping how players and publishers view the medium. [00:20:00] Behind the Scenes of PAX: Scaling Indie Showcases Worldwide Learn how the Indie MEGABOOTH expanded into a global phenomenon, partnering with PAX and other major events to spotlight independent creators. [00:32:00] Challenges of Running Indie MEGABOOTH: Funding, Burnout, and Survival Kelly opens up about the financial and emotional hurdles of sustaining a community-driven organization in the fast-changing games industry. [00:41:00] Navigating COVID-19: Shutting Down Events and Supporting Developers Hear how the pandemic forced Indie MEGABOOTH to shut down operations—and how Kelly and her team worked to support struggling developers. [00:50:00] Transitioning to Venture Capital: Kelly’s New Role in Games Funding Kelly explains how she moved into VC work, investing in early-stage game companies and helping founders grow their visions. [01:00:00] Advice for Indie Creators: Community, Resilience, and Staying Authentic Kelly offers advice for new developers—emphasizing collaboration, sustainable practices, and why staying true to your creative voice matters most. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 19m

  5. AUG 14

    Fallout's Feargus Urquhart Stares into the Abyss

    Our guest is Feargus Urquhart, founder and CEO of Obsidian, the premier maker of videogame RPGs. Having mastered 27 second pizzas he moved to testing and production of huge titles like KOTOR, Baldur's Gate and Fallout. We discuss snatching victory from the jaws of defeat with Pillars of Eternity, and when a feature is real - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Founding Obsidian Entertainment: From Black Isle to New Beginnings Feargus shares how he and his former Black Isle colleagues launched Obsidian in 2003, determined to create deep RPG experiences despite industry headwinds. [00:05:00] The Fallout Series Legacy: Storytelling That Stands the Test of Time Feargus reflects on his work with Fallout and how its blend of player choice, dark humor, and moral complexity still influences RPG design today. [00:12:00] Navigating Publisher Deals: Lessons from the Early Obsidian Years Hear how Obsidian survived rocky publisher relationships, including near cancellations, and what the team learned about creative control and financial survival. [00:21:00] Making Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II Under Deadline Pressure Feargus explains how the team delivered KOTOR II in just 14 months—and the trade-offs required to ship under tight LucasArts deadlines. [00:31:00] From Pillars of Eternity to Deadfire: Reviving the Isometric RPG Discover how Kickstarter and a passionate fan base brought Pillars of Eternity to life, sparking a renaissance for classic-style RPGs. [00:43:00] The Microsoft Acquisition: Joining Xbox Game Studios Feargus discusses Obsidian’s 2018 acquisition by Microsoft, what it meant for studio stability, and how it opened doors for ambitious projects. [00:50:00] Creating The Outer Worlds: Satire, Choice, and Sci-Fi Exploration Learn how Obsidian blended sharp humor, branching narratives, and vibrant worlds to craft The Outer Worlds, a modern hit with old-school sensibilities. [01:03:00] Advice for Aspiring Game Developers: Build Skills and Networks Early Feargus offers guidance for breaking into the industry—emphasizing collaboration, flexibility, and learning from every project. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 19m

  6. AUG 7

    Making Myst a World with Rand and Robyn Miller

    Our guests are Rand and Robyn Miller, founders of Cyan (World) and creators of the smash game Myst. From humble beginnings in Hypercard kids' games, they made the 3D puzzle experience Myst which changed the world of adventure games. We discuss GRR Martin stories, line art to 3D and more - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] How Myst Was Made: The Birth of a Gaming Landmark Robyn and Rand Miller reflect on the early days of Cyan and how they created Myst—a genre-defining game that shaped the future of narrative and puzzle design. [00:07:00] Making Games on a Mac Plus: Myst’s Surprising Development Setup The brothers reveal how Myst was developed using off-the-shelf consumer hardware—proving that groundbreaking games can come from minimal setups. [00:14:00] The Myst Trailer That Changed Everything: A Publisher’s Big Bet Learn how a 90-second trailer helped convince publishers to take a chance on Myst, setting off a chain of events that would make it the best-selling PC game of the decade. [00:19:00] Myst’s Visual Style: Why Pre-Rendered Worlds Still Hold Up Robyn explains the creative reasons behind Myst's iconic static imagery—and why it still resonates with players even in an era of real-time 3D. [00:26:00] How Riven Raised the Bar: Bigger Worlds, Bolder Vision Rand discusses the development of Riven, the technical leaps it required, and how it built on Myst to deliver a more expansive, immersive player experience. [00:40:00] Why the Myst Brothers Left the Game Industry—and What Brought Them Back After the height of Myst and Riven, Robyn and Rand took separate paths. They share what pulled them away from games—and what inspired their return decades later. [00:47:00] Remaking Riven in Real-Time 3D: Challenges and Ambitions Cyan is rebuilding Riven from the ground up. Hear how today’s tools and player expectations are reshaping one of gaming’s most beloved worlds. [01:04:00] Advice for Indie Game Creators: Start Small, Stay Honest Robyn and Rand offer hard-won advice to new game developers: why simplicity, focus, and authenticity are the keys to building memorable experiences. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 26m

  7. JUL 31

    World of Warcraft's Seth Sivak Tips the Dealer

    Our guest this week is Seth Sivak, VP Development for World of Warcraft at Blizzard. From early years at Zynga he became Founder and CEO of Proletariat, shipping big games like Spellbreak. We discuss being an Imagineer, the three components of creative decisions and "always be pitching" - this week!  Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Why Games Fail: No Audience, No Hype Seth explains how several recent games failed not from poor quality, but because they launched without building an audience—resulting in commercial flops despite decent reviews. [00:07:00] Raising $20M for Spellbreak: Inside Proletariat’s Biggest Funding Round Hear how Seth and his team secured a major investment led by Take-Two in 2019, helping scale the studio and pave the way for Spellbreak’s development and Blizzard’s later acquisition. [00:10:00] Defining the Product Manager Role in Game Development Seth shares what it meant to be a PM at Zynga during the Facebook gaming boom—managing features like a mini-CEO and driving rapid iteration cycles across live games. [00:20:00] Hug the Sloth: A “Gold Spike” Game That Taught the Basics Learn how a quirky internal prototype helped the team test monetization, push notifications, and Facebook login—building foundational tech for future projects. [00:25:00] Launch Ugly, Learn Fast: Why Early Testing Beats Polish Seth recalls releasing a graybox version of Spellbreak to tens of thousands of players—proving that testing gameplay early matters more than perfecting visuals. [00:45:00] Streamline’s Collapse: How a Twitch Partnership Nearly Killed the Studio A promising Amazon deal turned into a disaster, forcing Proletariat within 72 hours of shutdown. Seth details how they navigated this near-death experience. [00:55:00] Spellbreak’s Origins: From Magic Arrows to Spell Combinations Discover how a spark of inspiration—combining magic attacks in unexpected ways—led to the creation of Spellbreak’s core mechanic and ultimately shaped its success. [01:03:00] Discord Growth and a Viral Trailer: The Road to Acquisition After two failed term sheets, a viral trailer and massive Discord surge helped Proletariat land an Epic Games deal—fueling momentum toward Blizzard’s acquisition. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 16m

  8. JUL 3

    Night Street's Mac Reynolds Captures the Last Flag

    Our guest this week is Mac Reynolds, CEO and co-founder of Night Street Games, making the PvP shooter Last Flag. As manager of the band, Imagine Dragons, he learned how to find magic from the grind and now applies that to a videogame. We discuss Eagle Scouts, learning to advocate and CTF - this week!  Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Realizing How Hard It Is to Make a Game Mac shares how his early assumptions about game development were quickly shattered after launching Night Street Games. [00:08:00] From Managing Imagine Dragons to Founding a Game Studio Learn how Mac transitioned from music manager to game studio co-founder with his brother Dan Reynolds, lead singer of Imagine Dragons. [00:11:00] Building Night Street Games: A True Family Venture Mac discusses starting Night Street Games, working with Dan, and their love for classic developers like LucasArts and Sierra. [00:17:00] Designing Last Flag: A New Take on Capture the Flag Hear how Last Flag evolved from a simple concept into a competitive third-person multiplayer game inspired by hide-and-seek. [00:21:00] Innovative Gameplay: Radar Towers, Seeker Drones & Strategy Mac breaks down the unique mechanics that make Last Flag stand out—like territory control and high-stakes flag defense. [00:29:00] Leaving Law for Creativity and Founding a Studio From law school to the Grammy Awards to launching a game studio, Mac reflects on choosing passion over a traditional career path. [00:44:00] Building a Remote, Scalable Game Team from Scratch He explains how Night Street scaled to over 50 people, balancing internal hires with tightly integrated outsourcing. [00:56:00] Comparing Music & Games: Creativity, Community & Joy Mac reflects on what games and music have in common—creation, community, and the magic of bringing people joy. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 13m
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4.9
out of 5
40 Ratings

About

A GUIDED TOUR OF VIDEOGAME MAKERY! Hosts Alex Seropian (founder Bungie, Wideload, Industrial Toys) and Aaron Marroquin (Art Director, Game Designer, part time magician) take you on a tour of the minds that create our favorite video games. We may also wander around in our own heads too. We aim to inspire, educate and entertain you about the games you love, the people that make them and hey, if you're not a gamer we know you know one. This will help you connect with them too.

Information

  • Creator
    Alexander Seropian & Aaron Marroquin
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2025
  • Episodes
    102
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2025 The Fourth Curtain
  • Show Website
    The Fourth Curtain

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