Is culture really a competitive advantage, or just something you deal with when there's time? After a decade of this work, Jenni's answer is that it's the whole thing — because growth doesn't create your culture problems, it exposes them. In this conversation, Jenni sits down with Mark Batterson, lead visionary of National Community Church in Washington, D.C., New York Times bestselling author, and author of Not My Circus, to talk about what thirty years of building culture on purpose actually looks like. This episode kicks off 10 Years of 4Sight, a series marking 4Sight's 10th anniversary with the leaders Jenni has been privileged to serve alongside. Mark's team was one of the first to take a chance on her, and they've worked together on strategic planning, multi-site strategy, org design, and team dynamics across nearly the entire history of the company. Mark's story started small and unglamorous. Coming off a failed church plant, he and a core group of 19 people began meeting in a D.C. public school. Average attendance that first year was 20-25. Monthly giving was around $2,000, and the rent was $1,600. It took five years to grow from 19 to 250. Three decades later, that same church has planted a network of churches, owns a debt-free city block on Capitol Hill, and still runs on a mindset Mark sums up simply: everything is an experiment. Jenni and Mark dig into the culture barometer he uses to check himself, why values have to be lived creatively instead of codified and hung on a wall, and what it costs to build the kind of team culture that holds under growth. They share candidly about the seasons of leadership that require a leader to change, and why Mark decided to write a book he knew would cost him something. What You'll Hear Why healthy culture turns growth into fuel, and unhealthy culture turns growth into a threatThe NCC origin story: 19 people, a rented D.C. public school, and a long obedience in the same directionWhy leading one church for 30 years has meant leading 17 different churches, and how to tell which season you're inWhat changed when Mark traded the title of Lead Pastor for Lead Visionary, and how he decided where his value actually sits nowMark's culture barometer: when you walk into the room, does the anxiety level go up or down?Leading with non-anxious curiosity, and the difference between a "here I am" leader and a "there you are" leaderInside the Play and Pray Retreat, the three-day gathering for staff plus spouses and kids, and why Mark defends the line itemWhy values only stick when you find creative, human ways to live them outGiving leadership away, teaching-church thinking, and building a pipeline for the next generationMark's encouragement: reserve the right to get smarter laterConnect with Mark Batterson Website: https://www.markbatterson.com/Book: Not My Circus — releases October 20, 2026Church: https://national.cc/We need your help to get the LeadCulture podcasts in front of more leaders! There are three simple things you can do that truly help us: Review us on Apple podcasts Subscribe - we’re available wherever you listen to podcasts.Share - let your friends know about the podcast by sharing your favorite episode on social media!
