What Do You Mean By That?

Sara and Misasha
  • 4.7 (140)
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  • Updated Biweekly

Join multi-ethnic co-hosts Sara + Misasha - two wickedly smart, heart-led, long-distance best friends - as they help folks talk smarter and think deeper about the world around us. Whether it's about science, history, current events, social justice, or more, their community consists of people who want to be better humans, to benefit all of us. We won't let the fire hose of information overwhelm us. Whether you're a seasoned expert or new to the work, you'll find yourself listening, learning, and feeling inspired to do something new after each episode. If you can never get enough knowledge but also don't want to feel overwhelmed… Congratulations, you've found your people. Follow to join a community of curious folks who constantly wonder: what do you mean by that?

  1. 3d ago

    30: The Supreme Court Ruled on Transgender Athletes: Here's Who Got Left Out of the Story - Airs 7-14-26 - with Schuyler Bailar

    On June 30th, 2026, the Supreme Court ruled that states can bar transgender girls and women from competing on girls' and women's teams. Six to three. It's now the law in over half the country.   And however you feel about that ruling, here's what we noticed in the days after it came down: almost none of the coverage actually talked to a transgender kid, or the parent raising one. It was all policy. All abstraction. It is a decision that, on paper, is about Title IX and biological sex and constitutional interpretation.   But underneath all that legal language is something much more personal: real kids, real families, real teams, and real decisions about who gets to belong. And let's not forget: argued by people who've never sat across from an eight-year-old who already knows she's going to be treated differently.   So we went back into our archive. A while back, we sat down with a remarkable mom, Jaime, raising a transgender daughter in Florida. And more recently, we talked with Schuyler - you might know him as Pink Manta Ray - a multiethnic Korean American trans educator, the first transgender Division 1 athlete on a men's team while at Harvard, and author of He, She, They:    How We Talk About Gender and Why It Matters.   We're combining pieces of both conversations into one episode, because we think you need both things right now: Jaime's story, to feel it - and Schuyler's clarity, to know what to actually say and not say when it comes up in your own life. These aren't talking points. These are ways to simply see the humanity in each other. Please listen, and share widely.   What to listen for:   Intersectionality, and Schuyler's own experience growing up biracial    The importance of exploring why you are who you are – for ALL of us – when it comes to gender   The quick takedown of the arguments from people working to push trans women out of women's sports  A bullet-pointed list of what NOT to say to transgender folks   How to remind yourself of joy and a sense of thriving in the world, when it gets rough  What Schuyler wants cisgender, heterosexual women to do differently, once you listen to the episode   About Schuyler:   Schuyler Bailar (he/him) is an educator, advocate, and bestselling author who made history as the first transgender athlete to compete in any sport on an NCAA Division 1 men's team. Originally recruited to swim for the Harvard women's team, Schuyler made the difficult choice to transition while potentially giving up the prospect of being a women's NCAA Champion. His story has appeared everywhere from 60 Minutes to The Washington Post and The Ellen Show. Schuyler's tireless advocacy has earned him numerous honors, including Forbes 30 Under 30  and the Out 100. In 2023, Schuyler's critically acclaimed nonfiction bestseller became the preeminent resource on trans inclusion: He/She/They: How We Talk About Gender and Why It Matters. Schuyler's works include his middle-grade novel Obie Is Man Enough, his online gender literacy training LaneChanger.com, and his hit podcast Dear Schuyler, including exclusive interviews with trans icons and allies like Lia Thomos, Dylan Mulvaney, Rafael de la Fuente, and many more.    Follow Schuyler on Instagram @pinkmantaray     About Jaime: Jaime Jara is a woman who wears many hats. A native New Yorker, she navigates daily life in Florida with her husband, 3 kids, and a plethora of furbabies.  She lends her voice and perspective as a parent of a transgender child to shed light on the challenges faced by the trans community. Jaime is an active member of the national LGBTQ organizations that aim to empower and support parents of LGBTQ children. After a long stint in corporate America, Jaime is putting her graduate degree to good use by starting her second career as an educator. She has been a guest speaker at schools, participated in panels and research studies, and appeared on television to advocate for transgender acceptance and inclusion. She has penned numerous essays about her journey with her trans child.  Jaime aspires to be signing copies of her bestselling novel one day, when she finally slows down enough to write it.    You can follow her journey with her family on Instagram@Jaidonna19.    Resources:     PFLAG National    Mama Dragons    National Queer and Trans Therapists of Color Network (NQTTCN)     Trans Lifeline - 1-877-565-8860    Human Rights Campaign    Stand With Trans    Black Trans Advocacy Coalition    Trevor Project Lifeline -  1-866-488-7386    GLAAD    "I can't even get my kids to eat vegetables, let alone change genders…" - Jaime Jara

    30: The Supreme Court Ruled on Transgender Athletes: Here's Who Got Left Out of the Story - Airs 7-14-26 - with Schuyler Bailar

  2. Jun 30

    29: The Story They Don't Want You To Know: The REAL Native American Experience In America, with Crystal Echo Hawk

    Crystal Echo Hawk's daughter gets asked if she still lives in a teepee. And Crystal's response isn't rage - it's something more unsettling.  She gets it.  Because 87% of American schools stop teaching about Native peoples after 1900, and 78% of Americans know very little about Native people. So that question, as painful as it is, makes a terrible kind of sense. The last data point most Americans have on Native people is somewhere around third grade. And then nothing. Crystal Echo Hawk is a citizen of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma, the former executive director of IllumiNative, a national, native-led, non-profit organization born out of the "Reclaiming Native Truth Project", a research project from 2016-2018, and was the largest public opinion research project ever conducted about native people. She is one of the most important voices in the country on what it actually means to be Native American in America today - not in a history book, not in a Halloween costume aisle, not doing the horrifying tomahawk chop in a stadium. This is a conversation you won't want to miss.  "There is no stupid question, as long as it's asked with respect." Crystal What to listen for:  Invisibility and erasure of the Native American culture creates bias and fuels racism. 27 states do not mention Native Americans in their curriculum. Representation in TV and film is between 0% and 0.04% of all representation. Within that sliver, the Native American is often shown in a stereotypical fashion. i.e., magical, mystical Indian, drunks, or savages. One study found that when you type the words "Native American" in a search engine, 95% of those images that come up are pre-1900, and are almost always men. YET, there are 573 independent, sovereign nations within this country. Each nation has its own language, its own customs and cultures, and systems of government and elected officials. "Native American", "American Indian", and "Native Peoples" are all terms that are preferred over the word "Indian". Yep, we discuss Christopher Columbus and Thanksgiving and Halloween and the offensive usage of stereotypes in sports, from the Native American perspective. Vote with your dollars: support Native American-owned businesses. There are more than 5 million Native Americans in the US. Take a moment to search and learn about who the traditional Native Peoples in your area were. Recommended Companion Podcast Halloween and Cultural Appropriation  About Crystal Echo Hawk Crystal is the founder and President of Indigenous House, powered by Honey Badger Partners. Crystal also founded IllumiNative in 2018 as an outgrowth of the Reclaiming Native Truth (RNT) project, the largest public opinion research and strategy-setting initiative ever conducted by and for Native peoples. Crystal designed and co-led the RNT project as CEO of Echo Hawk Consulting (EHC). Through EHC, Crystal served as a leader of tribal and philanthropic teams that raised and directed the reinvestment of $37 million in Native communities. Crystal previously served as the first Executive Director of the Notah Begay III Foundation and led program design and investment of $9.7 million in Native obesity/diabetes prevention and youth leadership.

    29: The Story They Don't Want You To Know: The REAL Native American Experience In America, with Crystal Echo Hawk

  3. Jun 16

    28: Who Gets to Be American? Japanese Internment, Reparations, and the Fight for Constitutional Rights with John Tateishi

    Imagine you're six years old. You look out past a barbed wire fence at a highway in the desert, and every single car that passes by is driven by someone white. The teachers who come to your school? White. The guards in the towers above you, also white. And you think to yourself: is this America? Or is America out there?  That child was John Tateishi. He was almost three years old when the U.S. government forced his entire family - along with 120,000 other Japanese Americans - from their homes and into concentration camps on American soil. His family ended up at Manzanar. And when the war ended, they were handed $25 and told to find their way home. What John did with that childhood - with that rage, that clarity, that love of country despite everything this country did to him - is an important story in American history, and honestly one that many adults may not have even learned in their history classes growing up.  He went on to lead the Japanese American redress campaign, helping secure a formal government apology and reparations. He's the author of Redress: The Inside Story of the Successful Campaign for Japanese American Reparations. He shares a lot about what that fight means today - for the Black reparations movement, for anti-Asian hate, and for the question that sits at the center of all of it: Who gets to be American?  As we move towards a celebration of America's birthday, that question sits front and center for many of us, as we're actively being told that we're not American. These stories show us not only how we reject that narrow view, but also how to fight for ourselves and one another while loving our communities, families, and country at the same time. What to listen for: John's personal experience as a young person incarcerated at Manzanar - and what it was like returning to society The makeup of Los Angeles in the post-war period - and how different communities banded together What John sees as the differences between the successful campaign he helped lead for Japanese American reparations and the hurdles facing Black Americans, starting with HR40. About John Tateishi: Incarcerated as a child in one of America's WWII concentration camps, John Tateishi carried that memory with him when he launched the Japanese American reparations campaign in 1978. He directed the public affairs and legislative strategies of the campaign until 1986, two years before the campaign ultimately culminated with the signing of the Civil Liberties Act.  Ten years later, he led the JACL's challenge against the Bush administration's policies that targeted Arab and Muslim communities and undermined the civil liberties of all Americans. He is the author of Redress: The Inside Story of the Successful Campaign for Japanese American Reparations (2020).

    28: Who Gets to Be American? Japanese Internment, Reparations, and the Fight for Constitutional Rights with John Tateishi

  4. Jun 2

    27: The History of Hate

    Six people. That's all it took. Six young men sitting in a law office in Pulaski, Tennessee, in December of 1865 - just eight months after the Civil War ended - decided to start a secret club. One that, 150 years later, still impacts our country today.  To combat the recent erasure of history and ensure these stories remain not only alive but top of mind, this summer we are re-releasing some of our most important historical episodes from the last seven years.  We hope you listen, share, like, and all those things, but most importantly, learn from them, and translate that into action, even if it's just telling one other person about this.  Change doesn't have to be big.  But these episodes show us how we got to where we are currently - and now, it's time to do something about it. What to listen for:  Reflecting on what you'd do if you got together with six friends. What kind of club, movement, or difference would you choose to make?  The KKK's trajectory over generations, and how it's grown, contracted, and operated. And how understanding this history helps us better understand where we are as a country today. The one segment in all our 7 years of recording close to 300 episodes, when we simply could not pronounce a word and ended up cry-laughing so hard… we left it in for you to hear. Share this episode with someone you know today!

    27: The History of Hate

  5. May 19

    26: Still Not a Monolith: How We're Thinking About AANHPI Heritage Month This Year

    What does it mean to be American? What does it mean to be Asian American — and why, in 2026, are so many of us still leading with worry? Today, in honor of AANHPI Heritage Month, we're diving into the TAAF STAATUS Index 2026 by unpacking some stats that are eye-opening, some that are infuriating, and some that are deeply familiar. We'll talk about how Asian Americans are seen - and how we see ourselves - from the food on our plates to the question of whether you even have to be born here to belong here. It's AANHPI Heritage Month, and we have some thoughts (unsurprising to all of our regular listeners, we're sure!). If this episode resonates with you, please share widely - and let us know what action step you decided to take after listening. What to listen for:  The latest data shows that Asian Americans in 2026 feel predominantly worried right now (compared to other groups who feel more "hopeful") - here's why we think that might be, and it may not be the why that's most common What does it mean to be American? Do you have to be born in the US? And why do so many folks of Asian descent feel you don't have to be born here to be American?  How Asian culture shows up in our homes.  Some ideas for what you can do this month: Watch an Asian film (made by Asians, featuring Asians), have some Asian food, research a significant moment in Asian American history, speak with your Asian friends to learn something new about their lives.

    26: Still Not a Monolith: How We're Thinking About AANHPI Heritage Month This Year

  6. May 5

    25: From Almost High School Dropout to Stanford Law to Fighting for All Of Us: Using Legal Skills as a Force for Good, with Luke Liss

    What if the thing holding back justice isn't lack of will — it's lack of access?  Today's guest is doing something about that after coming up from a really rough time in high school, a near-fatal car crash, a parent who believed in him endlessly, and ending up not only at Stanford Law but also with one of the most powerful mentors in the field of law. For those of you who - like Sara - have liked to tease lawyers for being miserable people with secret languages, this episode brings the absolute best in the field to rehabilitate that image, infuse us with hope and humanity, and remind us that, even if we're not lawyers, there is a LOT we can each do to make the world a better place.   What to listen for: Transformation is rarely linear — and patience is the secret ingredient. And a message for parents of struggling teens: believe in them relentlessly, even when they make it hard, because knowing someone is in your corner can be the difference that keeps a young person from going over the edge. Mentorship is a two-way street. Luke describes his decades-long relationship with trailblazing attorney Harry Bremond, who shaped him both professionally and personally — but he's clear that great mentorship requires great mentees. Showing up, being reliable, and genuinely investing in the relationship is what transforms a professional connection into a lasting legacy. You don't have to be a lawyer to fight for justice in your community. There is so much we can each do in our communities to create tangible change, even volunteering for a few hours. And mentally? Luke says it's important to be good to yourself and allow yourself and others grace. Go on and find the joy in life while we're living it!   About our guest: Luke Liss is the Pro Bono Partner of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati. He manages the firm's global Community Impact program. Luke also actively leads multiple pro bono impact litigation and immigration teams.  Luke has also played a key leadership role in high-profile pro bono litigation, including a trial win on behalf of one of the largest classes of Medicare patients in history, a historic win on summary judgment against a former Colombian paramilitary war lord on behalf of family members of a murdered community activist, and the settlement of a civil rights lawsuit alleging constitutional violations in Louisiana. Luke remains active in the leadership of multiple ongoing impact litigation matters.

    25: From Almost High School Dropout to Stanford Law to Fighting for All Of Us: Using Legal Skills as a Force for Good, with Luke Liss

  7. Apr 21

    24: Are White Men Smarter Than Everyone Else? With Steve Phillips

    The choice before us in 2026 is similar to the choice before Americans in the latter half of the 19th century, and the way we're framing it today is this:  Which straight White male President's line of thinking do you want to get behind? Choice #1 is Abraham Lincoln, who not only signed the Emancipation Proclamation, but was a firm believer in human rights for all, or Choice #2, the President who followed him, Andrew Johnson, who was perhaps the biggest Confederate sympathizer that we've had as President (minus, perhaps, our current one)? In other words, the choice is between believing in equal rights for all of us, or believing in rights only for rich, landowning, straight White men. Ultimately, this was the question before us in America 150+ years ago. It's the same question we're facing today.  To unpack this, we're having a conversation with a political leader, lawyer, and author who thinks deeply, systematically, and convincingly to capture your attention with boldness and walk you through some great ways to take action. We hope you listen, share widely, and be bold in how you envision 2026. What to listen for:  The clear stat that White men make up 29% of the American population. Yet if you look at leadership positions across the board, they make up a disproportionately large share. Do we think White men are smarter than everyone else? Is that why this percentage is so much higher? Or, is there a more systemic thing going on?  There are only two ways to answer this question, according to Steve. "One is that there is, in fact, something wrong with the communities of color and women, or in that white men are therefore smarter, more talented, more driven, and more deserving of being in these positions… The other is that there's actually a preference being shown to white men….But we don't have the conversation. We don't ask the question, and that's what I'm trying to remedy." On his spicy book title: "Pointing out inequality should not be more controversial than perpetuating the actual inequality."  Why Steve thinks the Democratic Party is bad at math.  About our guest: Steve Phillips is a bestselling author, columnist, and national political thought leader. He is the author of The New York Times and Washington Post bestsellers Brown Is the New White and How We Win the Civil War. His newest book is Are White Men Smarter Than Everybody Else?  He is also the founder of Democracy in Color, a political media organization dedicated to race, politics, and the progressive New American Majority. Phillips is the host of Democracy in Color with Steve Phillips, a color-conscious podcast on politics. He is a regular columnist for The Nation and The Guardian.

    24: Are White Men Smarter Than Everyone Else? With Steve Phillips

  8. Apr 7

    23: 7 Years, One Big Rebrand, and Everything We Know Now: An Honest Anniversary Conversation

    7 Years, One Big Rebrand, and Everything We Know Now: An Honest Anniversary Conversation Have we ever thought about quitting the podcast? What did we think when we were starting Dear White Women seven years ago? Why did we rebrand the show to What Do You Mean By That? What do we want the next chapter of this show to feel like? Those are all questions that we're asking each other as we celebrate SEVEN YEARS of this podcast, and many more as well. Listen in to find out what we really think about the work that we're doing, where we see the podcast going, and things that we thought about (or didn't) when we first started this seven years ago. We'd love to hear more about what you might want to hear as well - please email us at hello@whatdoyoumeanbythat.com with any show ideas! What to listen for:  What else Misasha wants to quit Which one of us doesn't listen to podcasts  Reflecting on how we were formerly the Dear White Women podcast, and now we're What Do You Mean By That? Going forward, we'd love to talk more about community activism, big picture questions, and the science / actions we can take to feel happier. What conversations do you want us to have? Just email us at hello@whatdoyoumeanbythat.com with your ideas!

    23: 7 Years, One Big Rebrand, and Everything We Know Now: An Honest Anniversary Conversation
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About

Join multi-ethnic co-hosts Sara + Misasha - two wickedly smart, heart-led, long-distance best friends - as they help folks talk smarter and think deeper about the world around us. Whether it's about science, history, current events, social justice, or more, their community consists of people who want to be better humans, to benefit all of us. We won't let the fire hose of information overwhelm us. Whether you're a seasoned expert or new to the work, you'll find yourself listening, learning, and feeling inspired to do something new after each episode. If you can never get enough knowledge but also don't want to feel overwhelmed… Congratulations, you've found your people. Follow to join a community of curious folks who constantly wonder: what do you mean by that?

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