Not to Forgive, but to Understand

Sabah Carrim and Luis Gonzalez-Aponte

A podcast series discussing topics in genocide studies with scholars and individuals deeply involved in understanding the complexities of genocide and its perpetrators. Presented by writer, and scholar of Genocide Studies Sabah Carrim, along with co-host Luis Gonzalez-Aponte. Tune in to this podcast series for insightful discussions on pressing topics in the field.

  1. 5d ago

    Judi Rever: Rwanda, Congo, Burundi, and Politically Protected Violence

    Investigative journalist Judi Rever joins us to discuss her work on Rwanda, Congo, and the Great Lakes region. Drawing from her books *In Praise of Blood: The Crimes of the Rwandan Patriotic Front* and *Rwanda’s 30-Year Assault on Congo: The Crimes, the Criminals and the Cover-Up*, Rever examines contested histories of violence, regional war, impunity, and international complicity. The conversation also reflects on her career investigating politically protected violence and the risks involved in pursuing difficult historical truths. Judi Rever’s new book, *Rwanda’s 30-Year Assault on Congo*: https://www.barakabooks.com/catalogue/rwandas-30-year-assault-on-congo/ References on African Rights and the construction of the post-1994 Rwanda narrative: https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/10/04/rwanda-the-danger-of-a-sanitized-narrative/ https://www.jstor.org/stable/24738036 Timestamps: 00:00:00 Opening 00:01:59 Introduction: Judi Rever and the Great Lakes Region 00:02:28 Rwanda, Burundi, Congo, and the Regional Conflict 00:08:55 Rethinking the Rwandan Genocide Narrative 00:16:25 How Rever First Questioned the Post-1994 Rwanda Story 00:25:13 Why RPF Crimes Were Not Acknowledged Internationally 00:31:33 U.S. Interests, Kagame, and Congo’s Minerals 00:38:05 Impunity and Diplomatic Protection for Kagame 00:43:49 RPF Military Strategy and Bait-and-Kill Operations 00:50:29 Mass Graves, Victim Categories, and Historical Memory 00:57:24 Victoire Ingabire and Political Repression in Rwanda 01:04:20 RPF Insiders, Sources, and the Risks of Speaking 01:11:59 When the Risks of the Investigation Became Personal 01:17:45 Advice for Scholars and Journalists Investigating Atrocity 01:22:01 Justice and Accountability for Congo 01:24:50 Public Response, Safety, and Continuing the Work 01:30:37 Closing 01:30:48 Outro

    1h 31m

  2. May 25

    Edward Westermann: Thirst, Dehydration, and Water Sanitation in the Holocaust

    Edward Westermann is the Theodore Zev and Alice R. Weiss HEF Chair in Holocaust Studies and Visiting Professor in the Department of History at Northwestern University. He is the author of Drunk on Genocide: Alcohol and Mass Murder in Nazi Germany, which received the 2023 Yad Vashem International Book Prize for Holocaust Research. In this conversation, Professor Westermann discusses his research on thirst, water deprivation, sanitation, disease, and embodied suffering in the Holocaust. The interview considers how dehydration shaped prisoner experience in camps and transports, how water scarcity intersected with starvation and illness, and how control over water functioned within the broader system of domination and dehumanization. We previously spoke with Professor Westermann about Drunk on Genocide. That conversation is linked below. Previous interview: https://youtu.be/z0rLwBDWPXQ?si=nJuJTQld8plp5rdA 00:00 Opening 02:23 Introduction 02:52 Why Study Thirst in the Holocaust? 05:49 “Thirst is Dreadful, Worse Than Hunger” 10:46 Reconstructing Thirst Through Historical and Medical Sources 15:22 Water Sources in Camps and Killing Sites 26:22 SS Access to Water and Prisoner Deprivation 30:33 Latrines, Excrement, and the Lack of Water 37:58 Dehumanization, Disease, and Misattributed Deaths 44:44 Water Deprivation as Control 49:57 Humiliation, Perpetrator Behavior, and the Boger Swing 55:03 Why Has Thirst Been Marginalized in Holocaust Studies? 1:02:37 Charlotte Delbo, Useless Knowledge, and Survivor Testimony 1:03:09 Water, Genocide, and Other Historical Contexts 1:08:04 The Ethical Challenges of Researching Thirst 1:12:52 Book Recommendations 1:14:15 Closing

    1h 15m

  3. May 4

    Mahi Ramakrishnan: Refugees, Rights, and the Rohingya in Malaysia

    The plight of the Rohingya remains under-addressed in public discourse, even as the genocide case brought by The Gambia against Myanmar continues before the International Court of Justice. In this interview, we speak with Mahi Ramakrishnan, an investigative journalist, filmmaker, and founder of Beyond Borders Malaysia, about refugees in Malaysia, the legal and political barriers they face, and her use of film, advocacy, and the Festival on Wheels to build public understanding and community connection. 00:00 Opening / Content Note 02:29 Introduction 03:12 Rohingya Refugees in Kuala Lumpur 04:44 From Investigative Journalism to Beyond Borders Malaysia 11:32 Documenting Rohingya Stories and Malaysia’s Response 15:20 Refugees, Race, Religion, and Malaysian Law 20:48 Refugee Communities in Malaysia 26:02 Patriarchy, Toxic Masculinity, and Community Education 28:29 Child Marriage, Trafficking, and Exploitation 34:35 The Origins of the Refugee Festival 38:48 Migrant Workers, Refugees, and Legal Protection 40:51 Community Support for Refugee Advocacy 42:51 From Refugee Fest to Festival on Wheels 46:21 How Festival on Wheels Builds Local Connection 48:30 Future Goals for Refugee Rights in Malaysia 53:36 An Image That Stays with Her 55:08 Documentary Scenes and the Violence Refugees Face 57:14 Closing Remarks

    58 min

  4. Apr 7

    Christopher Tounsel: Sudan and the Politics of Solidarity

    There are genocides that are neglected and underreported, and Sudan is often sidelined while other conflicts dominate global attention. In this episode, we speak with Christopher Tounsel, historian of modern Sudan and author of “Bounds of Blackness: African Americans, Sudan, and the Politics of Solidarity”. We examine how African Americans have engaged with Sudan across the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, focusing on race, religion, media, and foreign policy, and how these have shaped responses to conflict in Sudan and South Sudan. The conversation also addresses current dynamics, including the war in Sudan, the role of external actors, and how solidarity is formed, limited, and applied across different contexts of violence. Find Tounsel's book, "Bounds of Blackness African Americans, Sudan, and the Politics of Solidarity" below: https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501775628/bounds-of-blackness/ 00:00 — Introduction and Overview 02:22 — Obama, Darfur, and the Limits of Global Solidarity 05:23 — What Would a “Black” Foreign Policy Look Like? 08:29 — South Sudan and the Meaning of Independence 11:42 — Misconceptions About African Politics and Lived Frustrations 16:09 — Black Solidarity, Zionism, and Divided Alignments 21:36 — Identity, Race, and the Boundaries of Solidarity 25:54 — Black Lives Matter and the Contradictions of Solidarity 30:40 — Spivak, Othering, and Who Gets to Speak 36:54 — Black Media and the Mobilization of Sudan 42:22 — Media Figures, BLM, and Shaping Conflict Narratives 46:59 — Media Framing and the Inequality of Attention 53:25 — Why Some Genocides Receive More Attention Than Others 01:03:17 — Media, Academia, and the Political Economy of Genocide Attention 01:11:05 — Social Media, Power, and U.S.–UAE Influence in Sudan 01:11:05 — Book Recommendations

    1h 13m

  5. Mar 17

    Saira Hussain: Humanitarian Medical Practice in Gaza: Between Ethics, Anger, and Resilience

    Despite the announcement of a ceasefire, conditions in Gaza remain unstable and violence continues to affect civilian life and medical care. Saira Hussain discusses her most recent medical mission to Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, Gaza. Drawing on her experience working in a severely constrained healthcare system, she reflects on the conditions inside the hospital, the practical limits of medical care under blockade, and the ethical decisions clinicians face when equipment, medication, and evacuation options are restricted. The conversation also addresses the psychological strain experienced by humanitarian medical teams, the challenges of speaking publicly about what they witness, and the broader questions this raises for humanitarian institutions, medical ethics, and international accountability. Courtesy footage provided by Saira Hussain. Watch our previous interview with Saira here: https://youtu.be/Qd0nS28iG3M 00:00:00 Introduction 00:05:21 Third Mission to Gaza: What Changed 00:10:07 How Repeated Missions Shape a Doctor 00:13:53 What Gazans Say vs Outside Narratives 00:16:48 Shared Grief Among Medical Teams 00:19:12 Patients vs Doctors: Emotional Differences 00:23:02 Short-Term vs Long-Term Medical Staff 00:24:26 Why It’s Impossible to Disconnect 00:25:27 Humanitarian Heroism 00:32:31 Medical Evacuations from Gaza 00:32:50 Hidden Trauma Among Medical Workers 00:36:02 Collective Anger Inside the Hospital 00:37:37 Neutrality and Ethics in War Medicine 00:42:07 Anger as a Catalyst for Advocacy 00:44:12 Survivor’s Guilt After Returning Home 00:46:44 A Shared Language of Humanitarian Grief 00:48:59 Risks of Speaking Out About Gaza 00:52:08 The Burden of Witnessing Trauma 00:54:55 Rethinking Humanitarian Institutions 00:58:51 Health of Doctors Working in Gaza 01:00:44 Returning to Gaza: Future Goals

    1h 4m

  6. Feb 16

    Catherine Filloux: Staging "Lemkin’s House"

    We spoke with Catherine Filloux, an award-winning French Algerian American playwright and librettist whose work has engaged human rights, war, and mass atrocity for more than three decades. Her plays and operas have been produced internationally, including in New York, Bosnia, and Cambodia, and she has written extensively about genocide, post-conflict memory, and the moral responsibilities of law and witness. In this conversation, we focus on her play Lemkin’s House, a surreal and deeply human exploration of Raphael Lemkin in the afterlife. We discuss the invention and political life of the word genocide, the tension between law and realpolitik, the burden of “never again,” and how theater can illuminate memory, survivor’s guilt, and moral responsibility without reducing them to simple messages. Catherine reflects on staging genocide for a broad public, on the role of women in conflict narratives, and on how art can function not as instruction, but as a prism through which audiences confront complexity for themselves. 00:00 — Opening and Introduction 02:22 — Catherine Filloux’s Background and What Drew Her to Writing About Genocide 07:15 — How Do You Portray Lemkin’s Complexity for a Broad Public Audience? 17:31 — How Does the Play Expose the Legal and Political Controversies Surrounding the Word “Genocide”? 23:36 — How Does Lemkin’s House Weave Law, “Never Again,” and the Tension Between Memory and Forgetting? 29:21 — Is Lemkin a Hero or a Political Instrument? Humanizing Law, Power, and Realpolitik 36:40 — Why Include Dark Humor, Like the Termites Scene, in a Play About Genocide? 39:28 — When Suffering Competes: What Does the Play Suggest About Comparative Victimhood? 42:21 — How Do You End a Play Set in the Afterlife of Raphael Lemkin?

    46 min

  7. Feb 2

    Omer Bartov: Academic Silence, Gaza, and the Costs of Speaking

    In this episode, we speak with Omer Bartov about academic silence, Gaza, and the costs of speaking publicly about ongoing mass violence. Bartov reflects on the pressures shaping scholarly speech in the United States, the uneven application of legal and moral frameworks, and what the world’s response to Gaza reveals about whose lives are recognized and protected. He also addresses the personal and professional consequences of speaking out, the limits of academic caution, and the need for structural reform within the academy. These themes are explored further in his forthcoming book, Israel: What Went Wrong?, with link to purchase included in the description below: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/477841/israel-what-went-wrong-by-bartov-omer/9781911717690 0:00 Introduction and Biography 01:58 Academic Silence on Gaza: Moral Stakes and Scholarly Responsibility 12:41 The Personal and Professional Costs of Speaking Out 18:06 Pressure, Self-Censorship, and Navigating Institutional Warnings 22:38 Silence, Intimidation, and Comparative Academic Climates Across Countries 28:36 Gatekeeping, Disciplinary Policing, and the Questioning of Scholarly Authority 33:09 Has the Academy Failed a Moral Test or Revealed Structural Limits? 39:41 Academic Freedom, Donor Dependency, and the Capitalist University Model 47:47 The Future of Holocaust and Genocide Studies in U.S. Higher Education 51:02 Past Silence, Present Clarity, and the Ethics of Scholarly Reckoning 56:35 Hierarchies of Grievability and the Limits of “Never Again” 58:48 Advice to Early-Career Academics Facing Ethical and Professional Risk

    1 hr

  8. Jan 22

    Daria Mattingly: Culpability of Rank-and-File Perpetrators in the Holodomor

    In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we are joined by Daria Mattingly, a historian whose work focuses on perpetrator studies and the social and cultural history of the Soviet Union, with particular emphasis on Ukraine. The conversation centers on the Holodomor, examining how famine policies were enforced at the village level by rank-and-file actors and perpetrators rather than solely by state elites. Drawing on archival research, memoirs, literature, and oral history, Daria discusses how ordinary people became involved in famine enforcement, the role of youth and women among perpetrators, the use of euphemistic language to obscure violence, and the moral pressures produced by hunger and scarcity. The episode also explores how these perpetrators have been remembered, silenced, or contested in cultural memory within Ukraine and across the diaspora, based on her dissertation “‘Idle, Drunk and Good-for-Nothing’: The Rank-and-File Perpetrators of the 1932–1933 Famine in Ukraine and Their Representation in Cultural Memory” and her forthcoming book Stalin’s Activists. 00:00 – Introduction & Guest Background 02:35 – Studying Rank-and-File Perpetrators of the Holodomor 08:45 – Famine Policies and Legal Enforcement 18:34 – Beyond Top Leaders: Grassroots Perpetration 26:10 – Youth, Cadres, and Rank-and-File Violence 30:11 – Euphemisms, Obedience, and Moral Justifications 35:10 – Women Perpetrators and Gendered Representation 40:47 – Empathy, Hunger, and Moral Collapse 46:05 – Literature, Memoir, and Cultural Evidence 49:41 – Memory, Diaspora, and Competing Narratives

    55 min
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About

A podcast series discussing topics in genocide studies with scholars and individuals deeply involved in understanding the complexities of genocide and its perpetrators. Presented by writer, and scholar of Genocide Studies Sabah Carrim, along with co-host Luis Gonzalez-Aponte. Tune in to this podcast series for insightful discussions on pressing topics in the field.

Information

  • Creator
    Sabah Carrim and Luis Gonzalez-Aponte
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    42
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Not to Forgive, but to Understand
  • Show Website
    Not to Forgive, but to Understand

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