Not to Forgive, but to Understand

Sabah Carrim and Luis Gonzalez-Aponte

A podcast series discussing topics in genocide studies with scholars and individuals deeply involved in understanding the complexities of genocide and its perpetrators. Presented by writer, and scholar of Genocide Studies Sabah Carrim, along with co-host Luis Gonzalez-Aponte. Tune in to this podcast series for insightful discussions on pressing topics in the field.

  1. Oct 25

    Gabor Rona: The UN Fact-Finding Report on U.S. Strikes in Iran

    Gabor Rona joins Sabah Carrim to examine the UN fact-finding mission’s report on U.S. strikes in Iran, focusing on the Minab school strike and the Lamerd sports complex attack. Drawing on his recent Lawfare article, Rona explains the rules governing military targeting and the distinction between state responsibility and individual criminal liability. The conversation considers Pete Hegseth’s statements and decisions through the lens of command responsibility. Rona also discusses the Rome Statute’s limits and other routes to accountability, including universal jurisdiction. We then turn to whether the resort to force against Iran was justified and what great-power noncompliance means for the future of the international legal order. Rona is Professor of Practice at Cardozo Law School and Lecturer in Law at Columbia Law School. He previously served as international legal director of Human Rights First and as a legal adviser to the International Committee of the Red Cross. Read Professor Rona’s Lawfare article: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/parsing-the-un-fact-finding-mission-s-report-on-u.s.-strikes-in-iran Chapters 00:00 Opening excerpt 01:15 Introducing Gabor Rona 01:46 The UN findings on U.S. strikes in Iran 05:49 The report’s scope and omissions 09:15 Rona’s Lawfare analysis: what the report leaves unexplained 13:31 Fact-finding and the duty to investigate 17:28 When does an IHL violation become a war crime? 20:10 Lamerd: proportionality and civilian harm 27:04 Do states comply with the laws of war? 32:48 Pete Hegseth and command responsibility 37:14 Minab: target verification and precaution 43:21 Recklessness, intent, and the Rome Statute 49:58 War crimes law and human rights law 55:14 Great-power politics and the UN veto 59:52 The ICC and universal jurisdiction 1:05:44 The legality of war versus conduct in war 1:10:50 Could the Iran attacks qualify as self-defense? 1:14:23 Trump’s threats and international law 1:17:51 The future of the international legal order 1:26:26 U.S. noncompliance and prospects for recovery

  2. Oct 12

    Md. Rizwanul Islam: The Rohingya Crisis, Genocide, and Repatriation

    In this episode we speak with Rizwanul Islam about the Rohingya crisis, the persecution and displacement of Rohingya from Myanmar, and the legal and political challenges surrounding their possible repatriation. We discuss the roots of Rohingya statelessness, Myanmar’s 1982 Citizenship Law, the role of anti-Rohingya propaganda, the pressures placed on Bangladesh by mass displacement, and the limitations of the international refugee system. The conversation also examines The Gambia v. Myanmar before the International Court of Justice, the significance of the Genocide Convention, the principle of erga omnes partes, and whether the ICJ could go beyond a declaratory judgment to support safe and dignified repatriation. Rizwanul Islam is a scholar of public international law and Dean of the School of Humanities and Social Sciences at North South University in Bangladesh. He is co-editor, with Mahbubur Rahman and Abdur Rob Khan, of "Rohingya Repatriation: An Elusive or Achievable Agenda?" He also co-edited, with Hannah Buxbaum, the American Journal of International Law Unbound symposium “Exploring Extraterritoriality’s Empire.” The discussion also considers broader questions about international law, accountability for mass atrocities, the limits of legal enforcement, and what meaningful justice for the Rohingya might require. 0:00 Cold Open: What Precedent Are We Creating? 2:12 Introduction 2:49 Who Are the Rohingya? 5:07 Statelessness and the Rohingya Crisis 7:16 Citizenship, History, and Myanmar’s 1982 Law 9:56 Why Long-Term Settlement in Bangladesh Is Unsustainable 14:08 The Limits of the Global Refugee System 18:55 The ICJ and The Gambia v. Myanmar 23:17 Why The Gambia Brought the Case 26:23 The Genocide Convention and Obligations to All States Parties 29:05 Why a Declaratory Judgment Is Not Enough 32:22 Can the ICJ Order Repatriation? 39:43 Legal Precedents for Innovative Remedies 43:10 Law, Judges, and Human Considerations 47:46 What Justice for the Rohingya Requires 51:07 Enforcing ICJ Judgments 55:54 Myanmar’s Military Coup and the Prospects for Justice 58:52 What Safe and Dignified Repatriation Requires 1:01:53 Responsibility to Protect and Its Limits 1:05:49 International Law, Accountability, and Genocide Prevention 1:09:42 A Bangladeshi Perspective on the Rohingya Crisis 1:11:30 Closing

  3. Oct 2

    Alex de Waal: Famine, Hunger, Starvation, and Genocide

    In this episode, we speak with Alex de Waal, executive director of the World Peace Foundation and a leading authority on famine and the Horn of Africa. We speak about how famine is politically produced and what crises in Sudan, Gaza, and tell us about war, climate change, and accountability for mass starvation. 0:00 The Coming Climate-Driven Food Crisis 1:46 Introduction to Alex de Waal 3:15 Defining Food Insecurity, Starvation, and Famine 12:38 The “Malthusian Zombie” and Overpopulation 15:39 Starvation, Genocide, and the Nazi Hunger Plan 23:28 Famine Crimes, Causation, and the Return of Starvation 37:08 Why Famine Is Political 40:22 Famine and “Famine That Kills” 44:54 Sudan, Gaza, and the Evolution of Famine Analysis 49:56 Climate Change, El Niño, and Famine 56:55 Who Is Responsible for a Global Food Crisis? 58:46 International Law and the Accountability Gap 1:01:05 The Future of Famine Studies 1:02:43 “World War X” and the Breakdown of Peacebuilding 1:06:39 Recommended Reading on Famine and Kleptocracy

  4. Aug 18

    Raz Segal: Gaza and the Future of Holocaust Studies

    Raz Segal is Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and Endowed Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University in New Jersey. His research examines the Holocaust, modern genocide, state violence, and the history of central and southeastern Europe and Palestine/Israel. In this conversation, we discusses Israel’s war in Gaza and its implications for Holocaust and genocide studies. The discussion considers debates over the characterization of violence in Gaza as genocide, the relationship between Holocaust memory and contemporary mass violence, antisemitism and its political uses, academic freedom, and the responsibilities of scholars working in the field. Segal also reflects on divisions within genocide studies and what the response to Gaza may mean for the future of the discipline. NOTE ON THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA This interview was recorded before Dr. Segal reached an agreement with the University of Minnesota to settle his claims against it in mid-June 2026. In the agreement, the University denies any wrongdoing. The University was required to release public documents in the process that served as the basis for Dr. Segal’s claim about the violation of his First Amendment rights and the violation of academic freedom. The public documents are now available on the website of the Center for Constitutional Rights, which represented Dr. Segal. Center for Constitutional Rights briefing guide: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ccrjustice.org_sites_default_files_attach_2026_08_Raz-2520Briefing-2520Guide-2520Final-2520August-25205-25202026.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=jlDijqVYA6qscmUYkXuXuDjg2JjiwDg4gB81vNolndo&m=OCJu0-AOuE8ZyAGE2KhbGnTJBLlY6qIlGJvx-Zsi1VjZ-LjYy0Slpv9-6opxVQdg&s=VS_D58VTAf2PB0W353tEhWLGJC5EGuTU9r5Js-eKiK0&e= Center for Constitutional Rights press release on the settlement: https://ccrjustice.org/home/press-center/press-releases/victory-academic-freedom-university-minnesota-reaches-settlement The Guardian, August 6, 2026: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2026/aug/06/professor-israel-gaza-university-of-minnesota 0:00 Opening 1:49 Introduction 2:29 The Future of Holocaust Education After Gaza 4:39 The “Permanent Victim” 7:24 Holocaust Survivors, 1948, and the Nakba 9:27 The Genocide Convention and Holocaust Uniqueness 15:35 Victimhood, Israel, and Impunity 19:01 How Should Holocaust Education Change? 23:18 USHMM, “Never Again,” and Holocaust Comparison 28:17 Sarah Hurwitz and the Meaning of Holocaust Education 31:08 Negative Exceptionalism, Decolonization, and the Present Crisis 40:25 Truth, Antisemitism, and a “World Turned Upside Down” 44:11 Holocaust Scholars and the Gaza Genocide Debate 47:13 The “Death” and Transformation of Holocaust Studies 49:18 How Segal Teaches the Holocaust 55:42 Funding, Donors, and Institutional Constraints 1:04:31 University of Minnesota and Academic Freedom 1:07:38 Edward Westermann: Teaching the Shoah and Nakba Together 1:12:47 Reading Recommendations 1:16:54 Outro

  5. Jul 21

    Emilie Caspar: Just Following Orders: The Brain Science of Obedience, and Obedience to Authority

    Emilie Caspar is an associate professor at Ghent University and leader of the Moral and Social Brain Lab. Her book Just Following Orders: Atrocities and the Brain Science of Obedience examines obedience, responsibility, and harm under authority. This conversation discusses neuroscience, perpetrator behavior, rescuer behavior, and the phenomenon of obedience to authority. Not to Forgive, but to Understand, hosted by Sabah Carrim, examines genocide and mass atrocity through discussions with scholars, journalists, artists, and other stakeholders. 00:00 Opening 01:43 Introduction 02:08 Why neuroscience in genocide studies? 04:01 “Just following orders” and obedience to authority 08:45 Neuroscience, psychology, and legal defenses 13:52 Responsibility, explanation, and excuse 17:17 Awareness as prevention 19:51 How neuroscience research is conducted 22:34 Portable EEG and field research in Rwanda 28:44 Neurohype and public misunderstanding 31:49 Caspar’s next book and research on rescuers 34:42 What neuroscience adds to genocide studies 38:11 Neuroscience evidence in court 42:16 Skepticism toward neuroscience explanations 44:47 Phineas Gage and causality 46:25 Understanding as prevention 50:47 Milgram, resistance, and rescuers 52:56 Research access and current political violence 55:14 Closing

  6. Jun 26

    Kate English & Kim Klett: Holocaust Education, Human Rights, and the Right to Learn

    We speak with Kate English and Kim Klett of the Educators Institute for Human Rights (EIHR), an organization that works with teachers internationally to develop resources and training in Holocaust, genocide, human rights, and conflict education. We discuss what responsible genocide education requires in classrooms and post-conflict settings, including teacher training, accessible educational materials, student engagement, Holocaust education mandates in the United States, and EIHR’s work with the Right to Learn Coalition. Kate and Kim also reflect on the challenges educators face when teaching difficult histories and the role education can play in prevention, reconstruction, and civic life. Learn more about EIHR: https://eihr.org/ Not to Forgive, but to Understand, Hosted by Sabah Carrim and Luis Gonzalez-Aponte examines genocide, mass violence, and their aftermath through conversations with scholars, practitioners, survivors, and others working to understand how these events occur and what their legacies demand of us. 00:00 Opening 02:00 Introducing Kate English and Kim Klett 03:10 EIHR’s Work in Rwanda and the Teacher Corps 09:42 Creating Resources for Educators 14:30 Why Genocide Education Matters After Conflict 19:39 Teacher Constraints and Teaching Difficult Histories 25:07 Holocaust Education Mandates in Arizona 28:12 The Right to Learn Coalition 33:42 Teacher Restrictions, Book Bans, and Classroom Climate 38:01 Fear and Access to Inclusive Education 40:01 EIHR’s Current Work in the Democratic Republic of Congo 42:00 Webinars, Literature, and Learning From Young People in Conflict

  7. Jun 8

    Judi Rever: Rwanda, Congo, Burundi, and Politically Protected Violence

    Investigative journalist Judi Rever joins us to discuss her work on Rwanda, Congo, and the Great Lakes region. Drawing from her books *In Praise of Blood: The Crimes of the Rwandan Patriotic Front* and *Rwanda’s 30-Year Assault on Congo: The Crimes, the Criminals and the Cover-Up*, Rever examines contested histories of violence, regional war, impunity, and international complicity. The conversation also reflects on her career investigating politically protected violence and the risks involved in pursuing difficult historical truths. Judi Rever’s new book, *Rwanda’s 30-Year Assault on Congo*: https://www.barakabooks.com/catalogue/rwandas-30-year-assault-on-congo/ References on African Rights and the construction of the post-1994 Rwanda narrative: https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/10/04/rwanda-the-danger-of-a-sanitized-narrative/ https://www.jstor.org/stable/24738036 Timestamps: 00:00:00 Opening 00:01:59 Introduction: Judi Rever and the Great Lakes Region 00:02:28 Rwanda, Burundi, Congo, and the Regional Conflict 00:08:55 Rethinking the Rwandan Genocide Narrative 00:16:25 How Rever First Questioned the Post-1994 Rwanda Story 00:25:13 Why RPF Crimes Were Not Acknowledged Internationally 00:31:33 U.S. Interests, Kagame, and Congo’s Minerals 00:38:05 Impunity and Diplomatic Protection for Kagame 00:43:49 RPF Military Strategy and Bait-and-Kill Operations 00:50:29 Mass Graves, Victim Categories, and Historical Memory 00:57:24 Victoire Ingabire and Political Repression in Rwanda 01:04:20 RPF Insiders, Sources, and the Risks of Speaking 01:11:59 When the Risks of the Investigation Became Personal 01:17:45 Advice for Scholars and Journalists Investigating Atrocity 01:22:01 Justice and Accountability for Congo 01:24:50 Public Response, Safety, and Continuing the Work 01:30:37 Closing 01:30:48 Outro

  8. May 25

    Edward Westermann: Thirst, Dehydration, and Water Sanitation in the Holocaust

    Edward Westermann is the Theodore Zev and Alice R. Weiss HEF Chair in Holocaust Studies and Visiting Professor in the Department of History at Northwestern University. He is the author of Drunk on Genocide: Alcohol and Mass Murder in Nazi Germany, which received the 2023 Yad Vashem International Book Prize for Holocaust Research. In this conversation, Professor Westermann discusses his research on thirst, water deprivation, sanitation, disease, and embodied suffering in the Holocaust. The interview considers how dehydration shaped prisoner experience in camps and transports, how water scarcity intersected with starvation and illness, and how control over water functioned within the broader system of domination and dehumanization. We previously spoke with Professor Westermann about Drunk on Genocide. That conversation is linked below. Previous interview: https://youtu.be/z0rLwBDWPXQ?si=nJuJTQld8plp5rdA 00:00 Opening 02:23 Introduction 02:52 Why Study Thirst in the Holocaust? 05:49 “Thirst is Dreadful, Worse Than Hunger” 10:46 Reconstructing Thirst Through Historical and Medical Sources 15:22 Water Sources in Camps and Killing Sites 26:22 SS Access to Water and Prisoner Deprivation 30:33 Latrines, Excrement, and the Lack of Water 37:58 Dehumanization, Disease, and Misattributed Deaths 44:44 Water Deprivation as Control 49:57 Humiliation, Perpetrator Behavior, and the Boger Swing 55:03 Why Has Thirst Been Marginalized in Holocaust Studies? 1:02:37 Charlotte Delbo, Useless Knowledge, and Survivor Testimony 1:03:09 Water, Genocide, and Other Historical Contexts 1:08:04 The Ethical Challenges of Researching Thirst 1:12:52 Book Recommendations 1:14:15 Closing

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About

A podcast series discussing topics in genocide studies with scholars and individuals deeply involved in understanding the complexities of genocide and its perpetrators. Presented by writer, and scholar of Genocide Studies Sabah Carrim, along with co-host Luis Gonzalez-Aponte. Tune in to this podcast series for insightful discussions on pressing topics in the field.

Information

  • Creator
    Sabah Carrim and Luis Gonzalez-Aponte
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    48
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Not to Forgive, but to Understand
  • Show Website
    Not to Forgive, but to Understand