Paul Krugman Podcast

Paul Krugman
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Notes on economics and more paulkrugman.substack.com

  1. 1d ago

    From Kakistocracy to Cheatistocracy

    Transcript At this point, it’s almost a commonplace to say that under DonaldTrump, America has become a kakistocracy, ruled by the worst. But I don’tthink it’s fully appreciated the extent to which we’ve also become a cheatistocracy, ruled by the most corrupt. Today’s commentary is a follow-upon yesterday’s primer, which was about the role of tax evasion both in leading to or contributing to our downward spiral into oligarchy and also as a surprisingly large factor in the budget deficit and therefore in America’s debt problem. Before I get to tax evasion, let me say something about where I’ve been going in my kind of intellectual journey into understanding oligarchy. As an economist, normally my instinct is to think about the invisible hand, to think about market forces, about technology as driving what happens to society. And even now there’s at least some extent to which the rise of kind of garden variety inequality, the rise of the top quintile at the expense of the middle, may be partially explained by the bias of technology towards higher formal skills, although that may be ending now with AI and all of that. But as I began to focus on oligarchy, on the very small number of people who have enormous wealth, enormous income, but the wealth is an even bigger factor — there are a really handful of people who have come to play such a large role.In our society, in our economy, and above all, of course, in our politics— I was forced more or less by the numbers to say this is not about the invisible hand. This is not about market forces. It isn’t even mostly about technology. Yeah, some technologies create winner-take-all markets that make people int he right place extremely wealthy. But the really big factor that’s driven us from the relatively equal society that we were 50 years ago — not obviously anywhere close to truly equal, but nothing like the dominance of a tiny elite that we have now — the really important factor is policy and above all tax policy. We basically stopped imposing progressive taxes that limited the growth of enormous fortunes. And sure enough, as the tax barriers to accumulation of excessive wealth went away, excessive wealth began to concentrate. This is, in many ways, the fundamental story. We got rid of, we ended the Gilded Age with its dominance by, as FDR said, the power of organized money, largely by taxing a lot of that organized money away. And we got back to something which in many ways is worse than the Gilded Age by taking away those taxes and allowing vast fortunes to snowball and buy themselves enormous political power, which allows them to snowball even further. One factor in all of that is the rise of simply not paying taxes that you’re supposed to pay. A lot of it is reductionist statutory tax rates. We tax corporate profits at a far lower rate than we did In the 1950s, we tax top incomes at a much, much lower rate than we did in the 1950s. But what’s also true is that we simply allow people to get away with not paying taxes to an enormous extent, to almost surely a much greater extent than used to be the case. The numbers are big, and in the primer I go through the tax gap. The money owed but not in fact collected is certainly north of $600 billion a year. It is something like 40% or more of the U.S. federal budget deficit. It is a major contributing factor to the accumulation of vast fortunes. What is striking is that far from really making an effort to rein in that tax gap, for the most part politically our system has moved to let it rip, has basically tried to make America safe for tax cheats. This is something that overwhelmingly benefits people with high incomes and large wealth because people with really big incomes, people who are extremely wealthy, for one thing, they just have much more complicated income. It’s much, much harder to track down and audit someone who has multiple businesses, some of which are dummy businesses, some of which may be real, but nonetheless are conduits through which money can move. And only the very wealthy can maintain offshore accounts that enable them to hide income and so on. So tax evasion is something that overwhelmingly benefits people with very high wealth and income. Not all! Not every billionaire is a tax cheat. There are levels and levels. There are some people who just feel that’s not something I want to do.People who feel that it would be wrong. Morality does exist. There are people who feel that their personal losses, should they be caught out cheating heavily on their taxes, would be large. So they care about their reputation. And then there are those who don’t. What’s astonishing is that we have, especially since 2010, especially since the hard right Republicans took control of the House of Representatives, we have moved to largely eviscerate any attempt to control that type of tax evasion. The numbers are really startling, and the IRS has actually put out very useful information. If you are someone with a very high income, the IRS stops counting pretty much at a million or more a year, but presumably it’s even more true further up the scale. In 2011, before the right-wing Congress was able to do its work, more than 7% of tax returns in that range were audited, which is not unreasonable because there’s obviously a lot of possibility for malfeasance there. It’s not saying that 7% of people with incomes of morethan a million were sent to jail. Obviously nothing like that, but we had widespread auditing, which among other things, encouraged people not to cheat on their taxes. By 2019, just eight years later, that number had gone from 7.2% to 0.7%. So almost nobody with high incomes was being audited for possible tax fraud. Now, why was that happening? There had been savage cuts in the funding to the IRS. Very large, at least 25 to 30% adjusting for inflation, something like a 40% reduction in the staff available for enforcement. And as it turns out, auditing the taxes of a very high income person is a lot more expensive than auditing a regular person. An ordinary blue collar worker, middle income, white collar worker who might be failing to declare some income, in many cases, it’s really very hard for them to evade taxes at all. And if they do, it tends to be relatively straightforward to pick apart what’s going on. And so audits of ordinary people are cheap. Audits of millionaires and billionaires, sounding like Bernie Sanders, are very expensive. And so the IRS, with limited resources and wanting to show that it was in fact auditing people, largely gave up on auditing the extremely wealthy. And this is a big number. The amount that we lose to tax evasion is something like the entire budget of Medicaid. It’s something like six times what we spend on food stamps. It’s something like 15 times the amount of money that Elon Musk saved by destroying USAID and killing millions of people in Africa. And yet it has been allowed to flourish. Notice, by the way, that this is all pre-Trump. Now, under Biden, there was a push to rectify the situation, a push to restore enforcement, increase the resources of the IRS, and increase enforcement actions in an attempt to tilt the agency’s priorities back towards where it should be, which is going after the big money. And that was just getting started. It takes a while to ramp those things up. And you know what happened. Of course, Trump’s one big beautiful bill did savage cuts in IRS resources for enforcement.Savage cuts in personnel. We’re now back to a situation where things are worse than they were before Biden started to try to fix it. So this is going to continue. What I find remarkable and interesting — I mean, I wouldn’t say that I’m baffled, but I think it is something that takes some analysis is why exactly. I mean, it’s one thing to favor the interests of the uber wealthy. Okay, we know that’s what the modern Republican Party is, whatever it may claim to be. But it’s another thing to systematically favor the least honest. What this policy does is It basically says if you are an honest billionaire — I’m afraid to name somebody because who knows what may come out in some future set of files — but if you are an honest billionaire, you are disadvantaged by the fact that dishonest billionaires are able to get away with cheating on their taxes. You should be opposed to that, but obviously the party that currently controls Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court, that party actually prefers dishonest men of great wealth. It’s actually a positive preference for cheaters. I can speculate very loosely. It’s often been observed of Trump, and it’s probably true of some others in his camp, that at a fundamental level, he does not believe that anyone has good motives. And that someone who appears to actually be a decent person who plays by the rules is, by that very token, someone Trump distrusts. He kind of assumes that they must be even worse than he is. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be faking having good intentions, which people like him never have. Maybe there is something going on, something deeper. But in any case, wehave developed a system where not only do we enormously favor the interests of people who already have vast amounts of money, but we literally favor malefactors of great wealth, to use Teddy Roosevelt’s phrase. We literally favor people who not only have enormous amounts of money, but cheat, who don’t pay their taxes, who break the rules. This is not America. The general public still very much believes that people should pay the taxes they owe. We are not a country that valorizes, that rewards, or that honors people who cheat.But we have become a society that in practice does reward people who cheat. What does that do to our social cohesion? What does that do to our sense of ourselves as a nation? I think in some ways the moral decay is worse than the numbers, whi

    From Kakistocracy to Cheatistocracy

  2. 3d ago

    Talking Interest Rates with Ricardo Caballero

    For all my interviews and more, subscribe on YouTube. I’m spending a lot of time thinking about high interest rates, both for obvious reasons and because I’m reconsidering some of my own long-held views. So I thought I’d have a long talk with someone who has really studied these issues and now, I believe, may have been more right than I was. This may be even wonkier than usual, but trust me, it’s important. . . . TRANSCRIPT: Paul Krugman in Conversation with Ricardo Caballero (recorded 8/25/26) Paul Krugman: I’m talking today with a very, very serious economist, Ricardo Caballero, who is one of the most important macroeconomic thinkers of modern times. I was going to say of my generation, but actually, I’m an older generation—but of the currently, still vital creative generation. We’ve had discussions about a lot of events over the past 25 years that have involved some disputes that I hope we can get into in a way that people understand. And recent events, including the rise in long-term interest rates, have really brought all of those issues to the fore. So I thought I’d talk with Ricardo, who is the Ford International Professor of Economics at MIT, a position I once held. But anyway, hi. Ricardo Caballero: Hi, Paul. So wonderful to see you again. We still miss you at MIT. Krugman: Well, I miss the days when actually getting at the truth was what mattered, as opposed to dealing with all of the obvious lies. But anyway, I guess there are different stages in one’s life. But so, I will want to get into recent events. But one thing that really struck me is that there’s this long-running discussion basically around interest rates and international movements of capital where there are kind of, as I see it, two rival ways of thinking about it. It could be some of both—but one was about returns to capital and investment opportunities, and one was about people looking for safety and security in assets. And for the most part, I was on one side of that and you were on the other. And I’m starting to think that you were probably right. So, first off, how would you portray this discussion? And maybe we can go back and forth. Caballero: I don’t know whether they’re really different views because, you know, my view at least was always, when I say “a shortage of a store-of-value,” if you will, investment opportunities create those store-of-value opportunities and so on. So I never saw it as very contradictory. I thought there was an imbalance: lots of needs for savings, in particular in a very specific kind of saving—safe saving. And the productive structure wasn’t able to generate enough assets, especially safe assets. And that’s, I think, what led to the sort of “shortage of safe assets” type of literature, and that naturally depresses safe interest rates. If you look at the return on capital, actually, it was fairly stable. It was all absorbed by the opportunity risk premium, if you will. And so you can see returns both on safe and risky capital sort of declining in tandem since 2000, or earlier than that. And then somewhere around 2000, you can see that the safe interest rate keeps coming down, while the return to capital is sort of paralyzed. And what starts widening is the equity risk premium. Krugman: So let me just break in here. A kind of crude, simplistic view—probably my view at a certain point—was that there’s capital and then there are returns on capital. And when we start to see interest rates get really low circa 2000, that’s telling you that returns to capital are going down. And if we see a lot of money coming to the United States, it’s because, well, America had faster population growth than other rich countries, and we were leading the technology revolution. But you’re saying there’s a really big difference between buying stock—corporate investment—and buying U.S. government debt, which is safe. And that the United States was sort of better than the rest of the world at supplying these safe assets. Caballero: Absolutely. Krugman: And just going way back—the financial crisis, which seems to me like yesterday, but was in fact almost 20 years ago—involved all of these exotic financial instruments, the asset-backed mortgage-backed securities, which you interpreted as a response, to a large extent; not just fraudulent, but a response to a real demand. Right? Caballero: Absolutely. I thought there was a shortage of ultra-safe assets. So financial engineering got to work and they created sort of “synthetic safe assets.” Now, they were safe assets from the point of view of idiosyncratic shocks, but they weren’t from the point of view of systemic shocks. And to me, that was quite important in generating the financial crisis. Krugman: Yeah. And so idiosyncratic shocks are like, well, okay: a particular housing development turns out to be a bust, but a collapse of the entire housing bubble is... And so fancy math was used to create assets that were supposedly safe because you were pooling all this stuff. And so, in your view, it wasn’t just that you had evil, fraudulent financial types—though that too—but that they were responding. There basically just weren’t enough Treasury bills and stuff like that out there. Caballero: I mean, they realized there was a spread to be earned by creating these assets, and then there were regulatory failures that allowed them to hold them on their own balance sheets. And I think that’s when the really toxic mixture was developed, because you had these very low-capital-charge assets which weren’t really safe. But you’re right, it was this spread that sort of created the opportunity and then the regulatory arbitrage, if you will, that brought them into the balance sheets. Krugman: Okay. I’m going to be self-indulgent and tell you a quick story. Robin and I bought our New York apartment in early 2009, which turns out to have been perfect timing, although that was purely an accident. We had come into a slug of money courtesy of the Swedes. But as we were looking at places and I was looking at the bookshelves of people who were selling their apartments, and a whole lot of them had books on the Gaussian copula and stuff like that, which, as you know, was a technique that was used to justify the claim that these synthetic assets were safe. And so we were clearly getting a preview: there were a lot of apartments on sale from Wall Street quants who’d been fired because everything was about to fall apart. And so, in some sense, the setting for the financial crisis was that people wanted safe assets, and excessively clever guys on Wall Street invented seemingly safe assets. But then everything went to hell, and we had the financial crisis. And then we had this long period of really, really low interest rates. And your story would be basically, as I understood it, that all of these fake safe assets had been revealed as fake, and now there was a sort of piling into Treasury bills, piling into actually safe assets. Caballero: Indeed, and also partly the supply of sovereign safe assets—Italian bonds and the like—those also went away. And so we had a massive shortage. Krugman: Okay. Now, there was an alternative story. And believe it or not, listeners, we are going to get to where we are now as a result. But there was an alternative story that I guess Larry Summers came out with at first, but I actually had been toying with the same thing, which was that what was actually happening was a real lack of investment opportunities. This was the “secular stagnation” view. Caballero: You know, we were both at that conference. It was IMF, I think, and you may not remember, but that’s when Larry sort of came up with this theory. And you may not remember, but I stood up and I said, “Look, I buy a part of that story. But what you’re missing is that the return on capital hasn’t declined nearly as much as the safe interest rate.” And that’s what I was describing before—the equity risk premium increased enormously. But the return to capital, regardless of whether you measure it with national accounts or return on financial investment, did not decline nearly as much. Krugman: That’s right. So, national accounts being corporate profits divided by the value of corporate assets. And there really wasn’t a big decline in the profit rate. Caballero: Of course, in the recession itself, it did. But I’m saying afterwards it recovered. Krugman: Yeah. By like 2015, the recession is over and basically the interest rate on federal debt is lower than the rate of inflation. And so it’s basically free money for governments to borrow. One interpretation of that is, well, population growth has slowed and technology is maybe not as exciting as we thought it was going to be, and so there weren’t these opportunities. And you were saying that the numbers never supported that. Caballero: I don’t think so. I mean, elements of these stories are obviously correct, but I mean, there’s like 400 or 500 basis points that really came from widening in the equity risk premium. Krugman: By the way, the equity risk premium is when stocks historically pay a higher rate of return than bonds—certainly more than government bonds. And it’s always been a little bit of a puzzle why it’s so large. Caballero: Not for long, though. Krugman: Yeah. Caballero: Not so much now. Krugman: But it was more that people trusted the U.S. government and didn’t quite exactly trust corporate investments. And so that’s why the government was able to borrow so cheaply. Caballero: I think so. And also the demographic cycle helped on that dimension because, you know, older people tend to demand safer assets. So that’s also changing that composition. Krugman: Yeah. I wasn’t even thinking about that. So I have to say, I think we were kind of, i

    Talking Interest Rates with Ricardo Caballero

  3. 6d ago

    Der Untergang

    For all my interviews and more, subscribe on YouTube. Note: After I recorded this it was reported that Trump officials are threatening to demolish the Kennedy Center if it can’t be renovated to Trump’s taste (and presumably with his name added). Matches my argument exactly. Der Untergang naht. Pardon my German pronunciation. I’m going to take a break today from wonky economic analysis and talk about, well, Donald Trump, but in a slightly different way from what I think most people are saying. Not positive, obviously. Just before recording this, I saw that Trump wants to rename Lake Ontario Lake America. Which is silly, would be funny, except that this guy is the President of the United States. And it’s really kind of troublesome that someone in that position is that out of it, that petty, disconnected from reality. And look, it’s not news to anybody that Trump is ego-driven, disconnected from reality, and at the same time, somehow commands a level of deference and obedience from the entire machinery of the federal government that no president has ever had before. So this is really quite serious. What I don’t think people are fully aware of is just how bad it can get, given that Trump is so obviously dissociating, decompensating, that he’s not all there. Obviously, he was already a very problematic personality, which was doing a great deal of damage to the United States. I don’t think even now people fully appreciate the amount of damage that has been done. Even before the Iran War, Trump’s provocations, insults, his trade wars, really destroyed the world’s trust in America. America became a country that could not be trusted to honor agreements. It was a country that constantly tried to bully other countries. Our word was worth nothing. Our sanity was not to be taken for granted. And then, of course, along comes Iran, where in addition to showing that we’re not to be trusted, that we’re not going to be relied upon., we also showed that we were far weaker than people imagined. If there’s one thing people thought it was, well, America has a powerful military. It turns out, well, not as powerful and not nearly as competent as people thought. How much of that is the result of Trump and Hegseth degrading it and how much of it was there to begin with is an interesting question. But anyway, at this point, we are not loved, we are not respected, and we aren’t even feared. And we’re not getting that back. Even if Trump is succeeded by someone decent —God help us if he isn’t— but even if we have a more or less rational, well-intentioned government that follows, the world now knows that we are capable of putting someone like Trump in a position of unprecedented, almost absolute power and that it can happen again. And the world also knows that we’re just not as fearsome as we seem to be. That we can be defied much more successfully even by smallish countries than anyone really imagined. And we’re not getting that back. I anxiously wait for the days when we’re no longer a Trump-ruled country, but this is my country, and what will be left of us, what will be left of our role in the world, even once he’s gone? Okay, the title I gave, the way that I opened this talk was Der Untergang, which is the German title of the movie Downfall, about the last days of Adolf Hitler. I hope that nobody is going to complain about my using the German, right? We’re long past the point where it’s considered unthinkable and incredibly rude to make Nazi parallels. There’s a lot of people in this administration or close to this administration who are effectively Nazis, in some cases explicitly Nazis. America is not yet Germany under Hitler. But the reason we don’t have a functioning Gestapo in this country is not for lack of desire to have one. It’s because these people, at least so far, don’t have the juice. So all of the stuff, all of the parallels seem appropriate. And the parallels are there. I mean, the parallels are there even in seemingly small things. Hitler was obsessed with building a gigantic gaudy ballroom. So there’s just a lot of parallels in there. Now the main message of the movie Der Untergang is that it’s about Hitler in his final days who knew that he was losing. He knew that defeat was looming. He knew that his power was collapsing. And his reaction was, among other things, to take it out on his own country. Hitler never accepted that he had failed Germany. He felt that Germany had failed him. And so he had a plan, often called the Nero Decree, which was to destroy as much as possible of Germany’s infrastructure. Supposedly to deny it to the victorious allies, but in large part to punish Germany. Well, Trump knows. He may deny it, he may have his moments when he actually believes that the polls are all fake and all of that, but in many ways he is behaving like somebody who knows that his days of supreme power are about to end. He, of course, is not going to accept that it’s his fault. It’s the fault, obviously, of the Democrats, who are all communists. It’s the fault of the Republicans, who didn’t live up to his leadership. The fault of everybody but him. What does he do in the position of losing? Probably not committing suicide in the Fuhrerbunker, but still in the position of losing all of his power. Well, what you do in that position, if you are somebody like Trump, who is an empty vessel: there’s nothing in there, the only pleasure he appears to take in life comes from dominating other people. Well, one thing you do is you try to stick your name everywhere, or leave your imprint everywhere. So Trump, according to reporting by Swan and Haberman, spends most of his time thinking about his construction projects and trying to leave his mark on everything in Washington. What I don’t think we’re fully appreciating even about those projects is that there isn’t a whole lot of actual construction. There’s a lot of starting of stuff, but so far it’s been mostly destruction, mostly tearing stuff down. We don’t have a triumphal arch, but we have a hole where the ballroom is supposed to be. We have just a lot of damage having been done to our nation’s capital and to the iconic structures that were supposed to define, symbolize who we are as a country. The scale of the destruction is really quite amazing. So I’m not going to try fancy video editing here. I’m just going to show you a picture of what the environs of the White House look like right now. There you go. That bare area is the South Lawn, ripped up because of Trump’s cage match. You can see in the corner there the hole in the ground, which is where the east wing of the White House used to be. Basically, Trump has left, so far, wreckage in his wake. Even the things which have not involved tearing stuff down, the gilding of statues, the horrific redecoration of the White House, is surpassingly ugly. That’s partly because Trump has terrible taste, but it’s also, I think, a clear sign of aggression. He’s saying, oh yeah, you’re going to give me a 33% approval rating? Well, I’m going to make the nation’s capital as ugly as I can in this little time as I possibly can. Now, this is all superficial. This is stuff that can and will be repaired. It’ll cost a lot of money, but OK. So we’ll rebuild the White House. We’ll reseed the South Lawn. We’ll strip the gilding off the statues. We’ll make the White House a dignified place again. But how much more will be coming? When we talk about Hitler’s last days, as I said, one of his last attempted acts was what’s called the Nero Decree, which was an attempt to destroy as much of Germany’s infrastructure as possible, supposedly to deny it to the victorious allies. But clearly, and even there’s some evidence that he actually he clearly thought this as a way of punishing the German people for failing him. Now, historiography is a little more complicated than that, as it usually is, but that’s clearly the gist of it. That Hitler’s final acts were to basically try to bring everyone else down with him. Do you really want to say that that’s not what’s going to happen with Trump? Assuming that he loses much, if not all, of his power to shape events this November, and of course we’re all worried about how he may try to disrupt or overturn the election, but assuming he doesn’t manage to do that, he will find himself much diminished. How much damage will he do basically taking revenge on America? Because always you want to bear in mind that Trump hates America. He hates the values on which America was built. He hates democracy. He hates rule of law. He hates all of the things that are what we’re supposed to be about as a nation. But increasingly it looks as if he just plain hates this country because it doesn’t love him. How much damage will he do? How much damage can he do? I don’t want to make a specific prediction, but I’m worried. And don’t say that he won’t do that or he can’t do that. Those have been famous last words again and again over the past decade. So this is going to be even worse, even uglier, I think than most people imagine. Have a great rest of your day. Get full access to Paul Krugman at paulkrugman.substack.com/subscribe

    Der Untergang

  4. Aug 22

    Jared Bernstein on Debt (Reposted with better transcript)

    For all my interviews and more, subscribe on YouTube. Better transcript! . . . TRANSCRIPT: Paul Krugman in Conversation with Jared Bernstein (recorded 8/20/26) Paul Krugman: Hi everyone. Paul Krugman talking with Jared Bernstein, former chief economist, head of the Council of Economic Advisers under Joe Biden. Now a policy fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research and at the Center for American Progress, which is in DC. Jared Bernstein: And I speak to you from Alexandria. Krugman: Yeah, and the reason I want to talk with you is, you know, there’s a lot of headlines now about debt. Interest rates, particularly at the long end, are way up. You and I have both been Substacking about it. I think we mostly are on the same wavelength, but I’d like to go back and forth, and I want to talk about some work that you’ve done, particularly with Bobby Kogan. But what’s your take right now? I mean, we had all these headlines about forty trillion dollars of debt. This is very different from the way we were talking about debt a few years ago, so what’s your take? Bernstein: Well, Paul, like you, for many years I was pushing back on those whose hair was on fire about the urgency of the federal debt. I thought that that overheating was overheated, and that as long as the growth rate surpassed the interest rate and we sort of kept our deficits within kind of a normal range, we could service our debt without breaking a sweat. But a few years ago, I began to become more hawkish and less dovish for a couple of reasons. One, the budget math became less favorable; the growth rate looked a lot closer to the interest rate, and that was before this recent bump up in bond yields. But also, you know, I’ve been in government a lot lately, and it looked to me like neither side really cared much at all. The reaction function, as we say these days, seemed to have been kind of dead in a way that I thought was problematic. Now, this is not a pox on both houses. And by the way, here’s an area where you and I may have slightly different views. The Republicans’ tax cuts—and Bobby and I have done a lot of work on this—are public enemy number one here. Exhibit A, in terms of why we’re in the mess we’re in. But you know, Democrats have largely endorsed those tax cuts and, in my view, have done some irresponsible stuff, too. So that’s kind of my first take. Krugman: Okay. You’re talking about r-g, but that’s kind of an important point, right? Why do we think about interest and growth and debt? Lots of people are out there saying, “Look, the interest on the debt is now so huge,” but that’s not quite the whole story, but it’s closer to the story. Anyway, your version of it... Bernstein: Yeah. For me, a lot of this comes from paying attention to Olivier Blanchard‘s work. He has kind of wedged into a lot of our heads this notion that when the growth rate surpasses the rate of interest, it is possible to keep rolling over that debt and not get into a kind of debt spiral because you’re generating enough growth and revenues and incomes to sustain the debt or to roll it over. Meaning, you know, replace some old debt with new debt without worrying about the debt getting on an unsustainable trajectory. As soon as r is bigger than g, that’s when you have the threat of a debt spiral. That’s not all the math. It depends on the size of your deficits as well. But broadly speaking, for many years we had pretty good growth and pretty low interest rates. We can talk about how that growth was distributed—a lot of it didn’t reach working-class people—but the fact that g, the growth rate, was higher than the interest rate was one reason why I was less wound up about all this. Krugman: Yeah, one of my favorite things is talking about the question of “How did we pay off the debt from World War II?” And the answer is we didn’t. The debt when John F. Kennedy was elected was about the same as it had been on V-J Day in dollar terms, but it was just vastly smaller as a share of the economy because we outgrew it. As long as debt doesn’t rise relative to GDP, it’s not a problem. That means if the economy is growing and interest rates are not too high, not only don’t you have to pay off the debt, you can actually keep it growing as long as it just doesn’t grow too fast, right? Bernstein: Exactly. So the problem we face is when our debt grows faster than our economy, when the debt ratio, or the debt-to-GDP, just keeps going up and up and up. Krugman: Basically for much of the period when everybody was going on and on about debt, the arithmetic there was actually pretty favorable, right? Bernstein: This is precisely why I kind of did a bit of a flip. I have an Op-ed in the Times—it’s from at least a year ago—where I managed to actually get them to put a graph in, which, you know, they don’t always do in there, which portrays this problem. It shows how the growth rate used to just reliably be well above the interest rate, where the economy grows faster than the debt, and so your debt-to-GDP ratio sort of glides along in a way that’s not particularly worrisome. But it looks like it’s starting to flip and starting to change. And then if you look at the CBO forecast, they actually have the interest rate on the debt falling below the growth rate numerous years out. And their estimates actually are kind of optimistic in debt terms because they assume a number of things: they assume tariffs continue to generate a bunch of revenue, which doesn’t look to be the case; they assume that some of the Trump tax cuts would fade, but now they’re permanent. So yeah, the budget math has gotten less comfortable. Krugman: Okay. I want to get to the interest rates in a minute, but the deficit that we’re running right now is just incredibly large. I mean, we used to run deficits to fight wars, and then we started to have big deficits when you had severe recessions. But now we have neither. I mean, there’s a war, but it’s not like World War II, right? It’s a fraction of a percent of GDP. Bernstein: Right, but it’s not free. Krugman: Yeah, but it’s not forty percent of GDP. It’s something like six percent of GDP now, right? Bernstein: Exactly. It’s a little north of six percent of GDP. And according to the kind of numbers that I run on this, with the macroeconomy doing pretty well—and again, I know it’s not reaching a lot of folks; affordability concerns loom large—but you know, GDP is growing around trend, which is about two percent real. The unemployment rate is close to four percent, which is in the neighborhood of full employment. And the stock market’s booming. We should have a deficit that’s closer to three percent than six percent. And what’s happened here, Paul—and you’ve written about this extensively—is that the constant ratcheting down of tax policy. All those tax cuts introduced by Republicans, too often kind of kept in place by Democrats, have really broken the linkage between solid economic growth and revenue flows to the Treasury. And what Bobby and I show is that if you take the Bush and the Trump tax cuts out of the mix, our fiscal scene would look fine. So, you know, that’s important. What you can do is simulate what the debt ratio would be—by debt ratio we mean debt-to-GDP—or what the deficit would be (either one), or what the interest payments on the deficit would be. You can simulate those if you take the Bush and the Trump tax cuts out of the system, which means taking them and not just the original cuts, but all the following-on legislation that made those cuts permanent. You know, when I say Democrats have played a role here: I was in the Obama administration when we essentially made permanent 80% of the Bush tax cuts. That’s not a hundred percent, so I’m glad that we let at least 20% at the top end revert back to what they were. But that’s the exercise we did. Krugman: The blue line in that chart is the projection for debt on the current trajectory, and up to the point where it gets dotted, it’s the actual debt-to-GDP. And it’s really three rounds, right? It’s Bush, which were very much tax cuts for the one percent; then Trump 1, more tax cuts for the one percent; and then Trump 2, even more tax cuts, not entirely for the one percent. Where we are now is not at all where we would be if we hadn’t had all of these tax cuts. Bernstein: Yeah, and let me say something about this. First of all, I know you do a lot of economic history, which is just really great work in my opinion, and I just don’t want our viewers to not note that that graph started back in, I think, the late 1700s. So that’s some pretty good economic history there. Remember, those figures, including the one that showed a much lower, much more sustainable debt path, include all the spending that is in the system. The only change we’re making is the tax cuts didn’t happen. And so this is important, because there are always going to be people who say, “You know, it’s all spending,” and “It’s all taxes,” and that’s a common fight. But that figure keeps the spending precisely where CBO says it is. So that’s not a judgment on whether we have the optimal amount of spending—we can argue about things that should be cut or expanded—but those are the numbers; those are the facts. Krugman: One of the things that strikes me about this is that often if we’re trying to understand what it would take to be able to pay for even what we have, that we would have to have something like European levels of taxation or something radically different. And actually, all we really need for that is Clinton-era levels of taxation. Bernstein: Precisely right. Yeah, in fact, under the Clinton regime was the last time we had an annual surplus, so the debt-to-GDP was starting to come down, which is

    Jared Bernstein on Debt (Reposted with better transcript)

  5. Aug 21

    Defending the Bonds

    Get full access to Paul Krugman at paulkrugman.substack.com/subscribe

    Defending the Bonds

  6. Aug 17

    The Misery Will Continue Until Morale Improves

    According to an old military maxim, amateurs talk about strategy, professionals talk about logistics. But these days we need a third category: Immature, insecure guys think that war is about acting tough and looking cool. Hi, Paul Krugman with a podcast update for today. I want to weigh in on the incredible rash of stories about how Trump and company are eviscerating the military. It is truly remarkable. If there’s one thing that we thought that the United States was still kind of number one at, it was that we had the world’s premier military. Now, of course, we managed to rather quickly effectively lose the war with Iran, although current management will never admit it. But also just a series of stories, some of them related to that war, some of them going beyond and to other areas that just are truly shocking, even for somebody like me, who had no expectation that this administration would be doing any good for the nation. Just to remember the story: So first we had the big warning that the U.S. military was basically running out of ammunition. That the precision missiles that are so essential to waging war were largely gone, expended unproductively against Iran. And clearly the cost benefit calculus was a disaster because the Iranians were sending cheap drones and we were using multi-million dollar weapons in an attempt to counter them. After that, we got the story about the horrific conditions on board the USS Lincoln, the aircraft carrier that’s been stationed for a very long time without, it appears, adequate resupply and with toilets flooding. Apparently just horrific conditions, which turn out to be not unique to that ship: Other ships are having problems. There’s the USS Boxer, an amphibious assault ship, which apparently has run out of feminine hygiene products, among other things. Okay, so we have those horrific stories. And then we have the stories about Trump intervening. Demanding, first, that the Navy construct a whole new class of ships, Trump-class battleships, which are useless and would be sitting ducks. Then demanding that the Navy replace modern catapults with steam catapults, which he thinks are cooler. And then demanding that they relocate the command tower on aircraft carriers because he wants them to look more like the way they looked during World War II. Is this America? I mean, think about the American way of war. We are not a warrior nation, which is fine. We are a lot of other things. We were a nation that was supreme in the arts of peace. We were a nation of know-how. America won its wars by doing the arts of peace right, by.building better and more stuff than other countries. By getting our act together in ways that didn’t necessarily involve fighting. Of course, you always need courageous warriors. You always need people able and willing to risk death in the service of their nation. But what America was supreme at was logistics. If you ask how did America and its allies pull off D-Day, well, a lot of it was being able to deliver supplies to the beaches of Normandy in a way that the Germans never thought was possible. America was always the place, the country that was really good at logistics. For us to be not feeding our sailors, not able to keep ships that are not, after all, under fire all the time, to keep the plumbing working, that is incredible. The idea that the president is imposing his personal aesthetic preferences to undo design decisions that were made by military professionals is also basically incredible. Okay, what is this all about? And what happened? Some of it is specifically military, but mostly it’s not. I think these military failings should be put in the same context as the frantic and disastrous destruction and redesign of Washington, D.C. The demolition of the East Wing. The disastrous attempt to refurbish the reflecting pool to reflect Trump’s aesthetics. Even the gold leaf and gold lettering that is polluting the White House. All of this is really part of the same picture.So what is going on here? Obviously we have a seriously mentally ill, mentally deficient guy with his finger on the button. The president of the United States is clearly dissociating, I’ve been calling it sundowning because I personally saw sundowning during my father’s awful last year. Trump is not in full possession of his faculties, and he is obsessing about things that are really just kind of remnant ego trips. I haven’t read the Haberman book yet, but reportedly he spends a large fraction of his time and probably a larger fraction of his mental energy on his redecoration projects, which aside from all being carried out disastrously are also in incredibly bad taste. But this is where he is. He’s actually more interested in his giant, tacky, gilded ballroom than he is in the fate of the nation. But how does somebody like this end up able to impose his will on these disastrous things? How does he end up able to eviscerate the military? Well, part of it is that this is a wannabe authoritarian regime. We’re in a peculiar state now where the United States is not yet a police state. It is not yet a place where the secret police will cart you away for expressing the wrong opinion, unless you are not a white U.S. citizen. Maybe the time is coming when that will happen. But in any case, we are not yet East Germany under the Stasi. We are not yet Putin’s Russia. But the Republican Party, senior politicians, who should be feeling that they have at least some dignity, ability to take a stand, behave as if they were living in an authoritarian state. They’re obviously terrified. They’re afraid to express any dissent. They go along with Bush’s — see, I’m dissociating, living in the past myself. They’re going along with Trump’s wishes. On top of that, I think it really helps to think of the ruling party in America right now as being a party that behaves as if we were a full-on authoritarian state. And one of the things we learn about in studying how authoritarian regimes behave is, first of all, that the leader actually can be possibly the worst informed person in the nation because nobody dares to tell him bad news. We’re hearing this a lot about Putin, that he doesn’t know how badly his war is going. Well, Trump in many ways probably still doesn’t understand how badly his war is going. The really striking thing about the munitions shortage and now the horrible conditions on US ships is that to the extent that any action has been taken on either of those issues is it has been only after extensive reporting in the press. So now the Pentagon is talking about a crash program to have defense manufacturers produce more of the missiles that we’ve been running out of. But it’s not clear it’s even started yet, and that call didn’t happen until many months into the war, whereas the munition shortage was obvious to independent observers just a few weeks in — that we were expending munitions that we couldn’t replace. Nothing happened until there was widespread press reporting. The USS Lincoln has finally been recalled for refit and shore leave. But that didn’t happen until after many press stories about it, all of which were denied, but it’s very obvious just looking at the behavior that the Pentagon and Hegseth and Trump finally reacted saying, oh, I guess something needs to be done. We can’t let this go on. But they didn’t do it until after the press reported. Now, is this because they’re totally callous? Well, they are. They don’t care at all. The people who yell support the troops most loudly are the people who actually have no interest whatsoever in supporting the troops. But I think it’s probably also the case that they may not have known. That nobody told Trump that we were running out of missiles. He may have read some press stories to that effect, but he said that’s all fake news and nobody within the administration was willing to tell him. They may not have been willing to tell Hegseth either, who by all accounts flies into a rage and punishes anybody who brings him bad news.So they just didn’t hear about this. They didn’t hear about the munitions. They didn’t hear about the conditions for US sailors until the drumbeat fromthe press became too loud for them to remain insulated, to remain in denial. So this is what happens. This is the problem with authoritarian regimes. It goes with the related problem with authoritarian regimes, which is that they have a single point of failure. You elevate one person to a position of untouchable authority, and if that person loses it, that person is sundowning, there is no recourse. One more thing to say about what’s going on is that authoritarian regimes systematically promote incompetence. This is Hannah Arendt on totalitarianism. That it’s not just that they value loyalty above competence. They actually actively dislike competence. Because someone who is competent, someone who knows what they’re doing, might stand on their dignity, might refuse to follow instructions from above. You need third-raters or worse. This has long been true in areas that I know something about. It’s been true of right-wing economics forever. It’s long been the case that although there are plenty of conservative, competent economists, what the right-wing wanted, even pre-Trump, was creatures like Steve Moore or Larry Kudlow, people who had no idea actually how to do economic analysis, but were unimpeachably, unquestionably loyal because after all, they had no constituency to fall back on. So we have this mix of leader principle, Führerprinzip. Yes, I think we’re allowed to use the original German here. Information blackout at the top because nobody wants to tell the leader bad news. And incompetence as a general principle throughout the government. And if you want to understand how the Reflecting Pool happened, if you want to understand how we ended up with this hole in

    The Misery Will Continue Until Morale Improves

  7. Aug 15

    Vanessa Williamson on Taxes and Democracy

    For all my interviews and more, subscribe on YouTube. . . . TRANSCRIPT: Paul Krugman in Conversation with Vanessa Williamson (recorded 8/12/26) Paul Krugman: This week, I’m talking to Vanessa Williamson, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and author of a fantastic short history of taxation called The Price of Democracy, which is, I’m pretty sure, an allusion to Oliver Wendell Holmes’ “the price of civilization,” but a very different take. And because I’m so interested these days in tax policy, I thought I could talk to Vanessa to get a sense of a lot of these issues where I am very much an amateur and she’s done the homework. So, hi! Vanessa Williamson: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Krugman: So, yeah, let’s talk about the title of the book first, because obviously the famous Oliver Wendell Holmes quote, which I’ve seen in slightly different versions, was basically saying, you know, if you want police and roads and public order, then you need to have taxes to pay for it. But you’re making a much broader point there. Why don’t you explain why you say it’s the price of democracy? Williamson: Yeah. So I love the Oliver Wendell Holmes quote, that it’s the price of civilization. But as I was writing this book, which was just going to be a history of taxation in America, it struck me that taxation is really more than the price of civilization—it’s the price of democracy. And that’s because democracy isn’t just being able to vote; it’s people having the power to actually make change to their government. And if the government doesn’t have enough money to act, then, even if you can vote, it’s inconsequential. Historically, this is a very deep story. Taxation and representation really do develop together. This goes back all the way to 1215 with the Magna Carta, when King John had been taxing at a higher level, and the barons demanded that if there were going to be extraordinary taxation, the king had to get the general consent of the realm. Krugman: Right. Williamson: And that was a very early iteration—an attempt to create what eventually became Parliament. So the very origins of representation in our historical tradition are really about taxation, because what you find is that when rulers want to tax, they become dependent on the taxpayers. And it builds a connection between the ruler and the ruled, and it gives the taxpayers power. I think commonly the story you hear in this anti-tax mythology that’s around is you’d imagine the taxpayers use that power to avoid taxation. The opposite is true: when representation develops, taxes go up because, of course, the taxpayers can now have a say in what the government is doing. So taxation and representation developed together historically, and they developed together cross-nationally. The freest countries today are high-tax countries. Krugman: That would be, above all, the sort of Nordic countries that are very high-tax? Williamson: Sure, but it’s true across the board. Even highly developed economies that are authoritarian have lower taxes than you would expect given their level of development. And that’s because authoritarians are simply not very good at raising taxes. They much prefer other forms of revenue, whether that’s a gold mine, the spoils of war, or fees and fines that they can apply to their political opponents. There are just other mechanisms that do not make them dependent on the rank-and-file people of their country. Krugman: Okay. And I want to come back to the high-tax countries in a minute. But one point that you make at several points in the course of the book is that the idea that taxes are okay is very much a challenge to wealthy people saying, “Well, my wealth is mine, and nobody has the right to take some of it.” And there’s a statement of principle that says, “Well, okay, but you too are subject to the laws of the republic and must pay.” Right? That seems to be a pretty big part of the story. Williamson: Yeah. There’s this long-standing tension, and it’s not all wealthy people or all the elites at any time in our history, but there are often some who are very, very wealthy. Fundamentally, they don’t like to see themselves as citizens, right? They like to see themselves as masters. The first group of people who felt this way, of course, were the slave owners who were desperately opposed to taxation. The anti-tax components of our Constitution were all put there as part of a compromise with slavery, right? Krugman: That’s a good point. Williamson: Yeah, the slaveholder class was afraid of mass democracy, even if only of propertied white men. So we get the Three-Fifths Clause. And they were specifically afraid that if every propertied white man could vote, what you would end up with is abolition by taxation—that we would tax slavery out of existence. And so that’s why you see these anti-tax measures in the Constitution. It happens again in the Gilded Age. You see Rockefeller claiming that high graduated taxation is the most fundamental threat posed by democracy. You see efforts to roll back suffrage rights during that period, even in Northern cities. So it’s a very long-standing fight between the mass public and the kind of things democratic governments usually want to do—roads, schools, and things of that sort—and a fraction of the elite who are willing to accept democracy as long as that democracy is too poor to threaten their power. Krugman: Wow. Okay. I’ll come back to the history shortly. One thing that I probably don’t talk about enough when writing about these things, but it’s something I certainly always taught when teaching a class on the economics of the welfare state, is that the high-tax, generous welfare state countries don’t have highly progressive tax systems. The state of the US debate always seems to be about, “Shall we raise taxes on the wealthy?”, which is an important concern. But places like Denmark or Sweden or, just in general, European welfare states, have high taxes sort of on everybody. Williamson: Yeah. That’s exactly right. I mean, that’s also how we pay for Social Security and Medicare. Big social safety net programs are typically funded by broad-based taxes. Krugman: Right. Williamson: I think it’s really important to remember all the things that taxes do. We really focus on the redistribution part. And it’s so important, absolutely, especially now with the incredible consolidation of wealth in this country. We focus on the straightforward redistribution part of the top rates, that kind of thing, or whether we should have a wealth tax. That’s important, you’re exactly right. But at the same time, we just need a lot of revenue. Traditionally, and in terms of long-term sustainability, that’s something that we fund by taxing everybody. But that’s part of citizenship. One of the things that is part of that anti-tax mythos that you hear all the time—people are under the impression that Americans hate paying taxes. It’s just not true. People are quite proud to pay taxes, and they’re very willing to pay taxes for things they think are valuable—things like Social Security and Medicare. So I think the fact that we’ve shied away from asking people to support their government by paying taxes at a federal level has really weakened the civic rhetoric of this country. I think it’s left us in a terrible position. If we can’t convince people that their government is worth paying for, how can we convince them that democracy is valuable? Krugman: Yeah, indeed. There are several episodes that I actually was ill-informed about. I kind of knew the numbers, but not at all the political history. There was this period, basically under the New Deal and through World War II, when the idea of broad-based taxes—that lots of people pay into social insurance programs, but also a broad-based income tax—really became established. That came as kind of a surprise, that people were willing to accept it, right? Williamson: Yeah. Before World War II, the income tax was what was called a class tax. It was paid only by the very wealthy. And the country relied far more heavily on tariffs. By the way, the tariffs chapter of my book is not what I expected as I was writing it to be—as relevant as it ended up being. But anyway, most people contributed to the federal government through the higher prices that resulted from tariffs, and the income tax was a tax on the very wealthy. Well, World War II comes along. We’ve got to pay for that. We need a ton of money, and they decide to go with an income tax. Now, we’re talking about a time when people didn’t have pocket calculators. A lot of people hadn’t been to high school. And suddenly they’re going to have to fill out a paper form and pay their taxes. And it’s not going to be withheld in the first years. So, there was a lot of fear in the Treasury Department: Could Americans do it? There were these incredible campaigns to let people know about the income tax and to help them pay. There was a song by Irving Berlin called “I Paid My Income Tax Today.” There were Donald Duck cartoons that played before movies. Donald Duck figures out how to fill out his taxes in the cartoon. So it was this huge effort, and in the end, it worked, right? Americans paid their taxes. We paid a much larger fraction of the bill for World War II than we otherwise could have. What’s especially amazing is how positively people felt about those taxes. They were voluntary contributions to the Treasury, made out to Uncle Sam. Polls suggested that 90% of Americans thought it was fair, because they saw it as a worthwhile thing to support the United States. Krugman: I guess the big increases in taxation have always come around wars, right? World War I is really where the income tax comes in, even for the wealthy, and then World

    Vanessa Williamson on Taxes and Democracy

  8. Aug 10

    What Malta Tells Us About Oligarchy

    Link to primer here. Transcript If you want to understand how we went so far down the road towards oligarchy, Malta is a good place to look. Hi, Paul Krugman, doing a video today. Yesterday, my weekly primer was another episode in the series about the rise of oligarchy and the policies that have led it to where it is. And this time, I focused on the role of a huge shift in taxation that has taken place over the past several decades, away from taxing capital and towards taxing labor. Half of that is a very large decline in the effective rate at which profits are taxed. Now that decline has taken place partly via a reduction in headline tax rates, but to a large extent, from expanding loopholes — of which one of the most important is the ability of corporations to use accounting tricks to shift their reported profits into low tax jurisdictions, which is where Malta comes in. On paper, according to the official numbers, Malta plays a remarkable role in the world economy. It’s a huge investment destination: There are only a bit over 500,000 people on the island. But it has attracted more than $500 billion in foreign direct investment. At the same time, Maltese companies have invested about the same amount overseas. That’s about a million dollars per man, woman, and child in each direction. Of course, it’s all fake. What we’re actually seeing is a proliferation of shell companies that are used by companies elsewhere as ways to launder, transfer their profits so that they pop up in Malta, which has a basically zero tax rate on corporate profits. This is a combination of tax avoidance and tax evasion. Avoidance is when it’slegal, although it probably shouldn’t be. Evasion is when it isn’t. There’s some of both going on in Malta. There’s quitea lot of actual money laundering and sheer criminal activity. Famously, an investigative journalist from the island who looked into it was blown up by a car bomb. But mostly it is probably, at least marginally, within the, or arguably within the outer limits of the law. So Crocs has a two-person office in Malta. And according to its books, basically all of its global profits come from that two-person operation in Malta. The New York Times had a very good report about all of this, which somehow I had not seen before writing the primer. What is going on here? Well, the mechanics are quite simple. The real question is why this is allowed to persist. Tax avoidance or evasion, but profit shifting to avoid taxation, is a big issue. Estimates for the United States are that we lose probably north of $100 billion a year to companies finding ways to make their profits appear someplace else. If you want a sense of perspective, that’s roughly the entire budget of the food stamp program. It’s roughly the entire amount that Medicaid spends on health care for children. These are programs that the administration falsely insists are full of fraud, but international profit shifting is fundamentally tax fraud, although it may be legal. Now, Malta is a sovereign nation, but there really wouldn’t be any problem if the major democratic nations said this must stop. Malta is in fact part of the European Union. The European Union could clearly stop it. It has not. Now, Europe is not totally hopeless. They actually have to some extent reined in the tax shelter status of Ireland, although it’s still there, but it’s weaker than it was. They have made moves toward a general international agreement that says that corporate tax rates must not be below 15% anywhere. It’s not really in effect, but they’ve moved in that direction. But Europe is characteristically weak in implementation. And let’s face it, there’s a fair bit of corruption there as well. The United States, well, the United States was part of the project to limit at least extreme tax havens. To impose that minimum 15% corporate tax rate. But Donald Trump has withdrawn from the agreement. It’s very clear that the United States government, as currently constituted, is not interested in cracking down on tax avoidance and tax evasion. In fact, the President of the United States and his lackeys are very much clearly on the side of tax cheats. Now, I don’t want to say that Malta is the whole story. It’s obviously just a piece, although it is pretty extraordinary. We’re taking about basically a million dollars of corporate profits being laundered for each inhabitant of this tiny island. But it’s an indication. It’s also an indication of what I’ve been calling the downward spiral of oligarchy. If we ask why is this outrage, this fundamental tax cheating permitted to continue, the answer is very clearly, it is the power of people with money who want to be able to avoid taxes. And their ability to avoid taxes leads them having even more money,which reinforces that power. So it’s going to take a really big effort to, you know, we really need to reverse this. And we need to do it, you know, not slowly because this is a cumulativeprocess. We are on a downward spiral here. Malta is slightly exotic, it’s a funny story, but it’s actually very much indicative of what’s going wrong for the United States. And a reminder that although we are definitely the bad guys here, theEuropeans aren’t such great guys either. But maybe they can be shamed. And maybe if we have a regime change here in the United States, we can finally be part of the effort. Have a great day. For all my interviews and more, subscribe on YouTube. Get full access to Paul Krugman at paulkrugman.substack.com/subscribe

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