AfterMASH

AfterMASH Podcast

In elementary school, a silly game called MASH laid out our lives for us, answering society’s most desired questions: who will we marry, what kind of house will we live in, and how many kids will we have? Maybe you were like us, and you survived the suburban-kid-to-college pipeline and graduated thinking you had all the answers. But then you found yourself in your twenties or thirties, having done everything “right”, but somehow nowhere near the future you had envisioned for yourself. Well, we are here to talk about it! Join Jackie and Zoë every other week as we attempt to answer new questions, using the old faithful game of MASH. aftermash.substack.com

  1. 3d ago

    Talking MASH with Shannon McNamara

    I started listening to podcasts in 2018. I remember the first podcast I devoured was Real Talk Radio. At some time around 2020, I re-found pop culture. Among the roll-call of podcasters was Shannon McNamara of FluentlyForward. Her kindness and curiosity shine through every episode. And she has a unique analytical twist founded on unabashed honesty. Additionally, she always lifted up other creatives. So as we continue on this AfterMASH journey, I figured, I’ll shoot my shot. And lo-and-behold, Jackie and I get to sit down and “Talk MASH” with Shannon. And let me tell you, she does not disappoint. She is as open and kind-hearted and beautiful inside and out as you would hope she would be. In this conversation, we take it from the beginning to the end: her upbringing, the midlife crisis of Shannon’s twenties that brought us Fluently Forward, and what her life looks like now. At the end, we even talk a bit of pop culture (swoon). And of course, her advice to her twenty-year old self - it’s a good one! Apologies in advance for the technical difficulties I experienced, but Jackie and Shannon really hit it off - it was fun listening to what I missed. Also, I said that Billie Eillish’s mom was on Armchair Expert, it was actually the other white-male-podcaster-with-all-the-answers, Rich Roll, and you can listen here if you’re curious. And final update, I have not yet reached out to her psychic, but if I'm good with my budget this month, I'll be reaching out next :). You can find Shannon at @FluentlyForward on socials and wherever podcasts are streamed. She will take your mind on a twisty journey and you’ll be a better person for it! Thank you, Shannon for your time! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit aftermash.substack.com

    Talking MASH with Shannon McNamara
  2. Jul 21

    Stress, Burnout, and Learning to Listen to Your Body

    Nothing like pulling out a handful of hair in the shower to wake you up to the fact that you've been effing stressed lately. Oops. The bad news: my hair is now 20% less voluminous than it was before. The good news: we got excellent fodder for a deep dive into a topic that I believe we will all benefit from learning more about. Thank you for your sacrifice, 20% of my hair. In this episode, we discuss: - Defining some terms: wouldn’t be a Jackie episode if we didn’t get real technical about the differences between burnout, stress, allostatic (over)load, and the (para)sympathetic nervous system. - Talking about the impact of chronic stress on the body: what is chronic stress and how does it show up? - Discussing why we have to deal with chronic stress: what happens in our modern society that lead to lots of stress and not a lot of stress relief? - And, lastly, if you are someone experiencing a lot of stress, what can you do about it? If you or someone you know suffers from any of the following, you should definitely give it a listen! - Trouble falling or staying asleep (including 3am wakeups)- Hair loss at a greater rate than normal- More frequent sickness- A recent increase in tummy fat you can’t seem to kick- Shoulder / neck tightness or jaw clenching- Recurring migraines- Irregular periods- Upset stomach, diarrhea (*in the tune of the pepto bismol commercial from our youth*)Full show notes on our substack!xoxo Jackie This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit aftermash.substack.com

  3. Jul 7

    Cootie Catching with AfterMASH: Get to know us!

    If you have been following our podcast since we started, you may think you already have a good sense of who we are, your two intrepid hosts. Here are some of the things you may have gathered from our previous episodes: * Zoe is a doctor, lives in the suburbs, is married, owns a house, has a dog and suddenly not one but TWO cats, and wants nothing more in the world than to one day add a horse to the menagerie. * Jackie is a data analyst, lives in the city, is not yet married, rents an apartment, has no pets, and hates diamond engagement rings (but will not judge you if you have a diamond engagement ring). But do you know Jackie’s four rules to living a good life? Do you know why Zoe went from definitely NEVER wanting to be a doctor to ultimately deciding why it was the right career for her? What did Jackie learn from her previous failed relationships and how has that shaped her dating life? Why did Zoe change her mind on wanting kids? After this episode, you should walk away with a much better understanding of who we are, why we feel the way we do, and what were some of the lessons or bumps on the road that got us to where we are today. And, as a bonus, for anyone who was inspired and wants to make your own cootie catcher, here’s a set of simple instructions for how to fold! We had an absurd amount of fun revisiting this staple of our childhood and we promise you will too. Share your cootie catchers with us in the comments! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit aftermash.substack.com

  4. Jun 23

    Reduce, Reuse, Recycle

    There were two months in 2024 where I relied exclusively on bottled-water. I was in Florida for one month, and if you have ever tried their tap water, you understand. The next month I was in Peru where I was actively trying to avoid E. coli. All these plastic water bottles - and that time I could bring water through their version of TSA - sent my millennial soul in a tizzy. The reduce-reuse-recycle indoctrination of my youth had fell by the wayside as dehydration and gastrointestinal collapse were on the line. But most interestingly, since I’ve been back, if I’ve needed water and didn’t have my own reusable bottle with me, rather than forego the idea of hydration entirely, I just bought a plastic water bottle. Why? Unsure. maybe I learned that the world wouldn’t end? Maybe it’s because for some reason, a cold Smart Water just hits? Maybe I justified it by reusing that water bottle so it was no longer “single-use”? I could not tell you. But I can assure you, it’s not a habit. In this week’s episode of AfterMASH, we visit an American Public School Classic: Reduce-Reuse-Recycle. By which I actually mean, recycling because that is all I remember actually learning - Jae and Jackie, too. I remember every year my classroom would have the blue recycling bin with a sheet of paper taped over it stating what can be recycled. And despite this, I’m not always clear on what can be recycled to this day. I’m just grateful to live in a town with single-stream recycling so that I don’t have to worry that my mistake will ruin the entire recycling collection bin. But this episode isn’t re-hashing what is and is not recycling, because at the end of the day that actually doesn’t cut it. All those “low-waste lifestyle” lists you see, every single one of those HABITS you curate over time and beat yourself over for breaking - the totes, the reusable water bottles, the meal plans - only add up to about 1 ton of CO2 emission a year. I also have a personal hypothesis that they only encourage overconsumption - I actually spoke with a girl who for some reason needed to have a matching water bottle with her fiancé. And every time he lost his, which was often, she would buy two completely new water bottles for each of them, rather than just replace his? Wild. One ton of CO2 emissions a year is not nothing when you’re talking about bringing the average annual carbon footprint per person from a 15 down to a 2 in accordance to the Paris Accord (politics aside). Every ton counts. Additionally, it keeps crap of out of turtles’ nostrils, which is important - because another part of my curriculum was breathing through a straw to mimic what it was like to live with COPD, and that was HARD. Anyway, I digress. Back to carbon footprint, which is the measure of gas emissions we chose to focus on when quantifying environmental impact of human activities. The big drivers of carbon footprint: diet, where you chose to live, if/how much you depend on a car, and how often you use air travel. TLDR: if you are a vegan who lives in a city, doesn’t own a car, and choses vacation based on America’s very limited rail-system, you are winning. But, your annual carbon footprint is still about 4, which twice as much as the goal. And that is because you are but one person. And human consumption and living habits are a small part of the environmental puzzle. Corporations and manufacturing have a ton of work to do to help reduce emissions and other variables of environmental strain such as finite resource depletion, toxin leeching, de-forestation and consequential jeopardy of species, etc. One place to start is extended producer liability, which is a policy approach that assigns producers greater responsibility for the end-of-life management of products they introduce to the market. The goal is to encourage innovations in product design such that the product itself is less harmful and more durable. Violations lead to fines and public humiliation. Google AI says that it has affected upstream manufacturing, but I haven’t put time in to research it. So, if you know anything, comment below! These policies apply to electronics, mercury, thermostats, batteries, pharmaceuticals, pain, fluorescent lighting, and mattress. What I suggest, is that you visit your town website to see what agreements they have for disposal of these items. For instance, you can often bring your empty paint cans to the local hardware store. Or alternatively, you can bring these items to the dump, which at least in my town is an organized Mecca of trash that they take responsibility for wasting responsibility. One day, I hope to meet Charlie Kelly and Frank there (that’s an Always Sunny reference). Along the lines of EPLs, this research did force me to spend time on a question that floated in my mind: I assume all corporations suck. Their allegiance is to their shareholders (by definition). So, how do you know which companies are actually trying to do better and not just greenwashing? First, there are the concepts of Public Benefit Corporation (PBC) and B Corp certification. PBCs are for-profit corporate entities who are legally obligated to aim towards “general public benefit” over maximizing shareholder profit. Some PBCs include anthropic (yes), Ben and Jerry’s (score), Bluesky, King Arthur Flour, Patagonia, Seventh generation, and a company called Tilamook (also ice cream). A B-corp is a third-party certification issued by the nonprofit network B Lab - it is a label earned by a for-profit that completes and passes some “Impact Assessment”. The B-corp label requires companies to be transparent and legal accountable for ongoing accreditation by the B-corp. Without doing much [any] research, this sounds like saying a chicken is free-range because it gets 2 square-feet to roam as opposed to just sitting in a wired cage with a few other buddies. Additionally, I stumbled upon three companies that seek to evaluate companies, typically in the fashion space, on their environmental, labor, and animal welfare practices. With the help of ChatGPT, I put together a table that compared these companies missions, rubrics, and findings. Then I looked at what their best, average, and worst rated companies were for the year of 2024; and then I compared their ratings for three companies. The table is below, so draw your own conclusions. My conclusion, even the “best” among them have so far to go it is simply laughable… … and then they got by Shien ; ) (after we recorded this episode). For a true paradigm shift in environmental responsibility and stewardship, my research has lead me to the concept of a Circular Economy. This is a model of resource production and consumption that involves sharing, leasing, reusing, repairing, refurbishing, and recycling materials and products that extend the product life cycle for as long as possible. The goal is to reduce resource depletion of finite resources and minimize effects of waste generation. You can think of this through an expansion of the original 3R lesson plan to an All Grown Up 10R conceptualization: (source) With these Rs in mind, your first instinct should be to refuse crap in the first place (as in, say “no”), and think about resources you already have at hand. You do not get to recycling until the eighth step… That is also shown in the Butterfly Diagram, where the goal is to stay as close to the “body” of the butterfly as possible. Recycling, at the edge of the “stock management” wing of the butterfly, is really a last ditch effort. Visit the Ellen MacArthur Foundation to take your own deep dives on a circular economy. The high level goal of a circular economy is to build a modular human environment that can be assembled and then disassembled (after centuries), built without toxins, minimizing reliance on finite resources to extend product life cycle for as long as possible and reduce resource depletion of finite resources and minimize effects of waste generation. A gleaming example of this is the Bullitt Center in Seattle. This integrated building design was made possible by a philanthropist with lofty goals. It is the greenest commercial building in the world. At least that’s what the website says. It opened in 2013 and features 500+ solar panels, geothermal walls, six-story composting toilets, and its own rain water collection system. It is built without toxins and is aimed to last for 250 years. And you bet it faced hurdles to overcome from banks who didn’t know how to back a building that was supposed to last that long, the DPH who was scrupulous about their water collection system, and manufactures who had to remove over 350 toxins from their construction products. So what does this mean for you? Coming from someone who enjoys her suburban lifestyle and will always depend on a car: shift your mindset. Recycling is a distraction, I’d go as far to as to say a virtue signal at this point. It matters, but not nearly to the extent we’ve been told it does from an environmental perspective. Minimizing plastic can be important to you for other reasons I didn’t address in this article: it’s cheaper and it’s theorized to be better for your health (although definitions, quantifications, and randomized-control-trials yet to exist to illustrate exactly how). Beyond that, step it up: when you see your blue recycling bin, you should be thinking “reduce” actually. When you’re looking to buy something new, take inventory of what you have and how it can make do. After that, find the scratchiest-wool-sweater-that-you-can-take-from-the-office-to-the-club-year-after-year, check-out thrift stores, take time to find companies you can endorse, and understand EPL and disposal options set up by your local municipality. These are meaningful ways to engage with your community and garner support for efforts that make a difference. Because environmental solutions are bigger tha

  5. Jun 9

    "Fur Babies" > Babies (?)

    Dude, why does everyone have a pet but nobody has a baby? What should we make of the rise of doggy daycares and pet clothing? Is this late stage capitalism? Is it the increasing unaffordability of having kids? Is it the loneliness epidemic? Maybe all of the above?? Join Jackie and Zoe as we learn about the history of pet keeping in America, recent trends in pet ownership, and we use virtue ethics to evaluate our relationships to our furry friends.Whether you have a pet, are considering getting one, or don’t want one but just want to understand what the hell a Bark box is, join us. If you want to learn more about our messy relationships with animals, I highly recommend the book Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat by Hal Herzog, PhD And the paper that Zoe claims she will definitely read is: Autonomy, Slavery, and Companion Animals by Heather Kendrick, PhD Dude, I went down such a rabbit hole when researching for this episode. Every paper mentioned, and a few others besides, are linked below. "My Little Son, My Everything": Comparative Caregiving and Emotional Bonds in Dog and Child Parenting by Udvarhelyi-Tóth et al, 2025  Majority of Americans think of their pets as family members | Pew Research Center Separation-related behaviour indicates the effect of functional breed selection in dogs (Canis familiaris) - ScienceDirect  The 2020 Five Domains Model: Including Human–Animal Interactions in Assessments of Animal Welfare - PMC The Welfare of Dogs as an Aspect of the Human–Dog Bond: A Scoping Review - PMC We love our pets, and our spending proves it : Beyond the Numbers Similarities and differences between dog–human and human–human relationships - PMC A $1,000 Dog Grooming Session? The Wellness Industry Is Booming. - The New York Times Animal Liberation (book) - Wikipedia  The Case for Animal Rights - Wikipedia  The Animal Welfare Science of Working Dogs: Current Perspectives on Recent Advances and Future Directions Operational Details of the Five Domains Model and Its Key Applications to the Assessment and Management of Animal Welfare - PMC  All in the Family: Pets and Family Structure - PMC Dog Population & Dog Sheltering Trends in the United States of America Future estimated annual expenditures of raising a child, assuming a higher inflation rate of 4 percent after 2020  2025 AVMA Pet Ownership and Demographics Sourcebook This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit aftermash.substack.com

    "Fur Babies" > Babies (?)
  6. May 26

    Middle Class Who?

    The American Middle Class! This episode started as a desire to understand the base definitions of income and class in order to better understand my own personal position (and privilege) in society. But it turns out a Merriam-Webster consensus of this stuff does not exist. Which is preposterous, because in middle school I learned about The Scientific Method, which tells me that to build a useful experiment you must have a definition of your population and your problem.  So join me (Zoe), an Upper Middle Class White B***ch with Expensive Hobbies, and Jackie (who also identifies as upper middle class), as we create a definition of the American Middle Class so that maybe we (and we alone) can solve the problems facing it. Show notes on our substack! But here's a sneak peek of the resulting definition I come up with: Zoë’s Diagnostic Criteria for The American Middle Class (modeled after the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders): Four or more of the following metrics must have been present during the same 3 years within the associated geographic location of the household unit during that time period. AND at least one metric achieved must be (1) Having achieved at least the median income of associated geographic location for the last 3 years OR (2) Have not been delinquent on mortgage payments for more than 60 consecutive days.  - Having achieved at least the median income of associated geographic location for the last 3 years - Have not been delinquent on mortgage payments for more than 60 consecutive days - Able to afford a healthcare plan - Every working adult has a reasonably-functioning car (exclusive of dependents) - Emergency fund of with at least three months worth of expenses covered - Can save for retirement at the rate of your maximum employee-matched retirement account or ROTH-IRA max contributions for the year - Have not been delinquent on credit card debts as it relates to necessities of living for more than three consecutive months in the last 3 years - The value of the Consumers Good Index can fluctuate 10% without changing behavior This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit aftermash.substack.com

  7. May 12

    Why Does Dating Suck So Much?

    Dating sucks; anyone who has spent any amount of time “on the market” in their 20s or 30s can tell you that. We all love to hate on dating apps. “They don’t work,” we gleefully confess to each other, which is a universal truth we all know... because all of us are still swiping. Dating apps are like social media, or #grindset culture: we love to hate them and yet we secretly can’t stop using them. The tech overlords commodified one of the most fundamental tenets of being alive: the seeking of human connection. But that doesn't make it any less important. So what can we do about it? Why?? Why do dating apps suck so much?? Do they actually, or do we just love to hate them?? What actually works in seeking and keeping a partner, according to science?? Will I ever get married or will I die alone?? This and more in today’s episode. Side note: if you are seeking love, I recommend reading the book that helped change my relationship with seeking relationships: How to Not Die Alone, by Logan Ury. The sources referenced in the podcast: Stock Buybacks Are a Key Example of Extractive Corporate Power The real effects of share repurchases - ScienceDirect 10 Essential Pieces of Expert Dating Advice | Psychology Today  U.S. women are outpacing men in college completion, including in every major racial and ethnic group  "Scarcity of College Men and the Decline in Marriage Among Non-College Americans", by Clara Chambers, Benjamin Goldman, and Joseph Winkelmann.  “Where Have All the Good Men Gone?” Gendered Interactions in Online Dating - PMC What's The Biggest Challenge Men Face On Dating Apps?  Aspirational pursuit of mates in online dating markets | Science Advances  From Looking for Love to Swiping the Field: Online Dating in the U.S. | Pew Research Center Dating App Use Linked to Worse Mental Health | Psychology Today  Why investors don’t fund dating | andrewchen  Dating App Revenue and Usage Statistics (2026) - Business of Apps Red Flag/Green Flag: What to Look for When You’re Dating (PDF) Leveling the Playing Field This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit aftermash.substack.com

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
4 Ratings

About

In elementary school, a silly game called MASH laid out our lives for us, answering society’s most desired questions: who will we marry, what kind of house will we live in, and how many kids will we have? Maybe you were like us, and you survived the suburban-kid-to-college pipeline and graduated thinking you had all the answers. But then you found yourself in your twenties or thirties, having done everything “right”, but somehow nowhere near the future you had envisioned for yourself. Well, we are here to talk about it! Join Jackie and Zoë every other week as we attempt to answer new questions, using the old faithful game of MASH. aftermash.substack.com

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